Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 789

On April 18 2011 07:09 Trsjnica wrote:
So... Zerg are 3-9 in the TSL. Started with 9 in a 32 person tournament, and by the round of 8, none remain. Perhaps they simply aren't trying hard enough?

On April 18 2011 07:27 oZii wrote:
For anyone thinking PvZ is imbalanced I present to you 107 pages of Protoss Tears from November 2010. 107 Pages of Protoss Thinking they where Underpowered. November 2010

Dont look at that thinking they didn't know how strong they where look at it as Protoss players have been where many Zerg players think their race is Currently in the State of the Game. The point is the match up isnt broken it just looks that way. When your the one affected by it. (you can't use 1 months worth of tournament results to say a race is over or underpowered.)

If anyone was following Sc2 during that time. They should realize that this is how the game works its aways going to sway. If anyone actually takes to the time to look through that thread you will see intelligent discussion soon become consumed by balance whines and people think all hope is lost. Just something to think about.

I'll do a little leg work for you. MLG is mentioned on page 3 and 12. This thread lasted until GSL 3 find that on page 100 and Blizzcon is refrenced on page 104 so yea. So don't just look at the First or Last page to summarize that entire thread.

I just want to present this into evidence and as a reminder as SoTG is going to talk about this and I think it is very relevant to "The Current State of the Game by looking at the Past State of the Game"

On April 18 2011 08:18 nodule wrote:
I'm not trying to make an argument either way, but I think that the way this community overreacts to one win or loss by a zerg is simply disgusting and pointless.

On April 18 2011 08:50 rysecake wrote:
Ultimately the biggest problem that lies within zerg is the larva system. Any slightest change can make zerg overpowered or underpowered. I'm not a game designer and thus I can't exactly decide what and how to fix it. But imo the zerg macro mechanic is a good place to start.

On April 18 2011 08:44 Miketorreza wrote:
I'm getting tired of seeing one race dominate in almost every recent tournament, and make the other races look like they can't do anything about it. Even just looking at today, Mondragon v Cruncher game 2 on Shakuras... I don't think anyone can honestly say that Cruncher played anywhere close to the level Mondragon did that game, but he still won. That is stupid.

The way things are going, I hope the pros can figure something out soon because with so many protoss winning, there's gonna be a lot of PvP, and PvP is by a lot of people's accounts, the worst match up in the game to watch (and by a lot of player's accounts, the worst to play) because its the same 4gate microbattle on the ramp every single game, and then if it gets past that it becomes tech path rock paper scissors. Watching the same exact scenarios get played out over and over gets dull real fast.

And if that's what these tournaments are going to devolve into in the later rounds, I'm just not going to watch.

On April 18 2011 08:56 Antisocialmunky wrote:


This is how it happened in Broodwar with the recent Swarm Season, and still someone recent era of the 6 Protoss dragons. You guys should remember that Zerg was on top in SCII not a very long time ago as someone in the LR thread for TSL3 day 4 posted.

On April 18 2011 07:27 oZii wrote:
For anyone thinking PvZ is imbalanced I present to you 107 pages of Protoss Tears from November 2010. 107 Pages of Protoss Thinking they where Underpowered. November 2010

Dont look at that thinking they didn't know how strong they where look at it as Protoss players have been where many Zerg players think their race is Currently in the State of the Game. The point is the match up isnt broken it just looks that way. When your the one affected by it. (you can't use 1 months worth of tournament results to say a race is over or underpowered.)

If anyone was following Sc2 during that time. They should realize that this is how the game works its aways going to sway. If anyone actually takes to the time to look through that thread you will see intelligent discussion soon become consumed by balance whines and people think all hope is lost. Just something to think about.

I'll do a little leg work for you. MLG is mentioned on page 3 and 12. This thread lasted until GSL 3 find that on page 100 and Blizzcon is refrenced on page 104 so yea. So don't just look at the First or Last page to summarize that entire thread.

I just want to present this into evidence and as a reminder as SoTG is going to talk about this and I think it is very relevant to "The Current State of the Game by looking at the Past State of the Game"

On April 18 2011 08:40 phrenzy wrote:
Is there a thread or poll on tL that just asks is Z underpowered, not used right, combination of both.

I see a lot of discussion back and forth on how "Protoss were crying here" or "Zerg won GSL 1 and 2". I dont quite know what you want kind of response your looking for by making those statements? Your right, there is nothing wrong with zerg?

Either way, not everyone can all be lazy and are simply not trying to beat the various strong compositions of Protoss. I know i am. And im sure a lot of progamers are. I must not be looking in the right places but i have yet to see a convincing win in a straight up match against some of these compositions.

Maybe ive seen (in tournaments) and experienced too many losses to recall anything beating it that doesn't require a skill level way above the opponent.

Even if infestors are the golden unit, even when not up against colossi range they take a lot of micro to use properly and for something so fragile yet quite expensive not to mention a high priority target, is that the only option in a straight up match?

This is something i would love to hear addressed on the show.

On April 18 2011 08:44 Miketorreza wrote:
I'm getting tired of seeing one race dominate in almost every recent tournament, and make the other races look like they can't do anything about it. Even just looking at today, Mondragon v Cruncher game 2 on Shakuras... I don't think anyone can honestly say that Cruncher played anywhere close to the level Mondragon did that game, but he still won. That is stupid.

The way things are going, I hope the pros can figure something out soon because with so many protoss winning, there's gonna be a lot of PvP, and PvP is by a lot of people's accounts, the worst match up in the game to watch (and by a lot of player's accounts, the worst to play) because its the same 4gate microbattle on the ramp every single game, and then if it gets past that it becomes tech path rock paper scissors. Watching the same exact scenarios get played out over and over gets dull real fast.

And if that's what these tournaments are going to devolve into in the later rounds, I'm just not going to watch.

On April 18 2011 09:33 Reptarem wrote:


The amount of idiots in this thread are amazing. Mondragon MUST have played better according your almighty opinion, right? Defense isn't part of the game either?

Oh no, we're gonna lose one new TL member who created an account less than a month ago probably just to cry about imbalance. Get out of here trash.

So much whining in TL nowadays... but I guess that's who Blizzard's caters their game towards nowadays. Whiney kids.

On April 18 2011 09:56 legatus legionis wrote:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
Should be a mandatory read.

"Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.

Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak."

Summary: The parts in italic, and the underlying message: seemingly powerful tactics are instrumental to developing the game. In the absence of dominant strategy there would be no motive to look for the solution. If everything was figured out, we would see the exact same things unfold. That's really shallow and uninteresting for those playing but also those watching.

I'm kinda getting sick of it, I thought it was gonna fade away slowly but I feel it's gotten worse. Everytime someone makes a cry on imbalance it tarnishes the reputation, the competitive nature of the game, it's community, the players and the future. It's sickening.

There are only winners and losers.

"Winners never quit and quitters never win." - Vince Lombardi

"Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future." - Denis Waitley

On April 18 2011 10:16 quentel wrote:


Sounds like the type that thought 5-rax reaper was perfectly fine.

On April 18 2011 10:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:

or the type that doesn't give a shit because he's playing the game, not designing it

On April 18 2011 10:25 quentel wrote:


Heaven forbid any feedback get back to Blizzard via forums and player comments!