|
+ Show Spoiler +No protoss in GSL2 RO4, no protoss in GSL1 RO4
Dear templar brethrens
What have you done for Aiur today? Tiny human in their big armor somehow as durable or more compared to our stalker made with millennial more advanced metallurgy, a lolcopter somehow able to fly in vaccum of scrap station with rotors and magically as destructive as our most advanced wrap blade, and the evil zerg somehow managed to spit their acid exactly one unit further since a few days ago. It's time to rise up and prove ourselves again.
Maybe it's time to innovate and prove that us toss can indeed use the nydus canal.
Rock on, brotosses.
P.S. If you ever wonder you never see any command calling down a carrier for support, that's because those who did haven't been able to come back. So the fine art toi build carriers have been lost.
EDIT:
For the record, I do not think protoss is grossly underpowered, or at least I am not at a level where I can comment about the balance. I like to see units like carrier and mothership to be made more practical, and that's about it.
I think play protoss requires a different scale set. Coming from a FPS back ground, you can't bitch about losing to one badly placed bullet. So I don't think the FF requirement is not that big of a problem. if a player can't master sentry FF, he's not a good P player.
The beauty of starcraft is that each race requires a different skill set.
EDIT
P.S I am a P player.
This is Jing Jing on play XP, the length of blue bar relative to other bars = amount of protoss QQ about imbalance.
http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/
EDIT:2
Qualified player of GSL3
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168854
Note that much less protoss player have qualified, even those who have been known to be very skillful.
LegalMind
오지에스잉카 (oGsInca)
블리치 (Bleach)
BabyByeBye (Sang Ho)
iNcontroL
KiWiKaKi
And now huk and tester have been elminated too.
Those above are some of the notable players that have been eliminated.
|
and then people qq about colossus, storm and (not anymore) void rays
|
Players aren't good enough.
But even that's too broad and general. Watch the matches and find each individual reason that every Protoss has been knocked out. Those are your answers, and there's no reason to simplify it.
|
I think there are some legitimate problems Protoss have, more so against Terran, but I wouldn't be so quick to suggest that there needs to be a change to the game. I might be wrong, but most of the games I have seen Protoss lose are usually games where they try to do something sneaky, like void ray rush, or warping in DT's over a cliff. There are some really strong macro Protoss players that I think don't do builds that really suit their strengths, which is longer games. Protoss late game is really strong I feel, so I would like to see some more safe-style play.
|
Could just be a coincidence. My bet is on that.
|
Not enough top level protoss players. A few cheese and BO loss here and there and they are all out.
|
On November 02 2010 03:09 Protoss_Carrier wrote:+ Show Spoiler +No protoss in GSL2 RO4, no protoss in GSL1 RO4 I am just wondering, why is protoss having such a poor showing? I open up game after game hoping for a protoss victory, but it just seems like protoss cannot compete. Is it due to the skill of protoss players, or the power of protoss does not scale well with level of competition? Or could it have to do with the number of completely unviable units protoss have? Let's discuss.
I don't think you can summarize the ability of a race based on single tournament results.
[1] In mirror matches, one of that race automatically gets knocked out
[2] The second best person in the tournament could get knocked out first round because of the person he was matched against
[3] If you make a mistake, you're knocked out of the tournament. It's not an average of several games, it's the result of a single game. Have you ever made a mistake?
[4] Every player has weaknesses. The best PvT player could get knocked out because he was forced to play PvP.
[5] There were probably more Terrans in the tournament to begin with.
[6] What if flat out more people just play Terran? Perhaps maybe there was imbalance at a time when the game/beta just came out and players continued using that race.
You need to use a much broader set of games to make conclusions, but even then, you have to separate that by skill. In diamond league in general average points for Terran and Protoss are about 940, whereas for Zerg it's 1040. However, in the top 5000 players and above, it's actually pretty even right now (Though I have a feeling we're just in the middle of a transition, and that zerg will continue to pull ahead in all sections).
|
Whatever theorycrafting discussion happens, it can only be theoretical. I think it's just due to skill level, as toss was represented in Ro8. there are only 4 spots in Ro4, and 3 races. The odds of 1 race no showing up are not ridiculous.
Considering this also happened in GSL1 may discredit that, but I personally think that ITR just outsmarted Genius. It could have easily been the other way, had Genius made a few calls differently.
|
Many of the protosses dropped early in the round of 64 and 32 trying to use dated strategies on Zerg players. Particularly, forge FE I saw repeatedly attempted throughout the RO64 despite it's ineffectiveness with the roach range increase. I think the reason P isn't doing well is that there really aren't that many big ticket Protoss players right now like there are for Z (Cool, IdrA) and T (Rainbow, Boxer, Nada). Tester obviously didn't qualify, which was a travesty, but that's what you get with aa young tournament scene without seeding sometimes.
Some Korean players are notorious for their stubborness to exectuting what they've been taught that they had a hard time adapting on such short notice after the latest patch. I think this is the reason so many Toss dropped in the early rounds in this GSL, but you were still lacking Tester which I believe is still the best protoss in the world.
|
|
|
It definitely is interesting because on the Western front there are plenty of Protoss that make it through tournaments. Yet in the GSL it seems to be Terran and Zerg all the time, not that it is, it just seems like that.
I'm going to blame it on Protoss not being explored enough yet.
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
Games don't last long enough, once the protoss has a decent economy and the ability to warp in HTs(notably) at the positions required and has storm at its use then Protoss can fight on equal if not better footing then the terran.
Roaches and Marauders destroy early game Protoss by a significant margin(stalkers are decent vs roaches tho)
Once protoss gets in the late game(see how Nexgenius got knocked out,short matches)
they are good,before that they are not as strong as the other races imo.
|
Canada13379 Posts
While I watch the GSL I see the amazing caliber of the top T and Z players and nothing about the Protoss players (yet) has seemed as amazing as that. It seems almost like the Protoss players aren't engaging in enough Gosuneverbeforeseen micro or macro that we have seen from the top Z or T in the GSL yet.
Note: all the players who make into the GSL are obviously quite good and those that are more than just Ladder Champs last past the RO64.
IMO I think Toss needs a Hero they can get behind as all the Toss in the scene are pretty low key and not very big in terms of having something special that sets them truly aside from the rest. A lot of the Protoss play has been within the realm of same general strategies executed by some players more or less better than others with little especially amazing personal touches to take them over the edge.
I hope one of my first posts on this Forum made sense :S
|
I honestly think its not a balance issue anymore but a style issue.
GSL 1 was a bit of Terran dominated tournament overall and the Round of 16 was pretty balanced in terms of toss to terran,oh yea and that one zerg  .
Watching the match-ups I think Zerg and Terran have adapted to the style, so its a case that this GSL hit as Toss Tactics are transitioning away from ur bread and butter Colossus G-way/ 4 Gate.
So I think its less a skill or power issue just a meta issue where toss strategies are being countered very effectively in all match-ups.
|
i think it's just the small sample pool you've included =[ two gsl series is hardly enough to judge the balance of an entire game. personally put more work in to your posts, or watch the gsl yourself to understand what each player is doing wrong. (i'm a fellow protoss as well and would love to see them succeed, but just because they are not in the top 4 for two tourneys doesn't mean they are UP)
|
On November 02 2010 03:09 Protoss_Carrier wrote:+ Show Spoiler +No protoss in GSL2 RO4, no protoss in GSL1 RO4 I am just wondering, why is protoss having such a poor showing? I open up game after game hoping for a protoss victory, but it just seems like protoss cannot compete. Is it due to the skill of protoss players, or the power of protoss does not scale well with level of competition? Or could it have to do with the number of completely unviable units protoss have? Let's discuss.
It seems more like a lack of good players/a side effect of the brackets. In GSL1, all the top Protoss players had tough opponents, and the same can be said for GSL2. Sang Ho got matched against Foxer, Tester was eliminated in the brackets, and NexGenuis got matched against HopeTorture. Just a bad series of matchups, nothing more. You could say the same fore Terran at MLG DC.
|
sSKS got eliminated in the qualifiers due to some timing he'd never seen. I guarantee with he and huk in the next GSL, protoss will be doing just fine.
NEXGenius has also been doing great.
|
I think over all, toss are fine. We may be a bit too build restricted and reactionary, but over all, most of the toss eliminations have been good matches.
|
There arent that many good protoss players, NEXgenious, Inca and HuK are the only ones i can think of (besides tester, but he didnt qualify iirc). Terran has so many famous people, Nada, Boxer, Foxer, HopeTorture, and i could name so many more. Same goes with Zerg. Idra, FD, Zenio, and i could name lots more.
So yea i think it's because there arent enough good players playing protoss, not because protoss isnt good enough.
Lets say you take the top 8 players in the world purely based on skill. And lets say these 8 players all make it to ro8 of the GSL. The chances that none of these players are protoss is actually quite high.
|
It does seem like Protoss commonly employs a very small number of build orders and this makes them predictable in the early game. The fascinating parts of a Protoss build order are where and how many gateways to build and when to make a robo. And is it just me or have HTs seen significantly less use lately?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
