EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 4
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zyzski
United States698 Posts
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
From the game design standpoint, I think Protoss design in SC2 always seemed a little bit... off to me. It's more like the overall concept of the race than any specific unit. I don't think Protoss are supposed to be the race that relies so much on these bulky tank-wannabe Robo units. Some of the trademark Protoss units like Carriers, Templar, Shuttles / Prisms have been pretty much pushed aside, Reavers and Arbiters completely removed. All of these were the sort of units that gave Protoss a lot of flair and a lot of options in BW and were the core element of most strategies. The way things are right now, the Protoss tech tree favors Robo tech far too much, and the new units we get out of it are pretty good at first glance, but far too limiting and make you just as slow, clumped up and vulnerable as they are strong. The BW Robo gave you Reavers, Shuttles and Observers which were all units you really wanted to have because they were awesome and they open a lot of possibilities. I don't think SC2 Robo is popular for the same reason. It's popular just because you don't really have a choice. | ||
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NIIINO
Slovakia1320 Posts
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Jacobs Ladder
United States1705 Posts
On November 02 2010 04:04 dcberkeley wrote: But we see bad spells from people of every race. There are bad EMPS, they don't flat out LOSE the game. We see bad fungals, again, its not game over.It's luck/fluctuations. Protoss performance in both GSLs don't indicate that they aren't capable of winning, it just didn't happen. Not to mention some terrible forcefields from SangHo. | ||
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
On November 02 2010 04:14 NIIINO wrote: Kiwikaki / HuK to GSL3 and we have PvP finals And you're delusional. | ||
Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
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Damaskinos
Germany139 Posts
2. Protoss has early game problems against Terran, but much more against Zerg. Looking at what happened to Jang Ming Chul (oGsMC), the top rated player in the world (not in the Blizzard list though), what kind of dislocations he had to take to get an expo against Zerg, an noob like me can only imagine the fear top Protoss have towards playing Zerg for the moment. NEXGenius said Protoss are the strongest race. Dont think he was meaning it exactly. He thinks Protoss are ok (maybe because he thought he woult not have to play Zerg, maybe becaus he had something in sleeve, maybe because he is not IdrA), but they need some tweaking I guess. | ||
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Respectfulwon
48 Posts
On November 02 2010 03:23 Deadlyfish wrote: There arent that many good protoss players, NEXgenious, Inca and HuK are the only ones i can think of (besides tester, but he didnt qualify iirc). Terran has so many famous people, Nada, Boxer, Foxer, HopeTorture, and i could name so many more. Same goes with Zerg. Idra, FD, Zenio, and i could name lots more. So yea i think it's because there arent enough good players playing protoss, not because protoss isnt good enough. Lets say you take the top 8 players in the world purely based on skill. And lets say these 8 players all make it to ro8 of the GSL. The chances that none of these players are protoss is actually quite high. lol how could you even quote HuK in the same sentence as Inca or Genius? That's a completely different level that he's clearly not on. I'd say Tester, Inca and Genius are the last hope for protoss at the moment. | ||
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Renaissance
Canada273 Posts
The recent Zerg buffs have made Zerg much more versatile but I haven't played many Zergs as of late. Concluding, don't blame Protoss players for being "bad". You cannot make even the smallest mistake early game against Terran, and Protoss is still trying to adapt to the new Zerg changes. | ||
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Boundless
Canada588 Posts
On November 02 2010 04:03 Tiax;mous wrote: Probably Seo Ki Soo ? Testers real name ( SKS ) Yes, this is Tester. His last name sounds like "Kisu" when English people attempt to pronounce Korean names. Also, I'm in full agreement with the "Protoss players just aren't playing at as high of a level" viewpoint. Other than Tester, there aren't many S-class Protosses right now. I'm tempted to include HuK here, but we'll see how he does when he gets to Korea. I'm thinking he will make Ro32 in GSL 3, anything further would be unexpected. After these two (and perhaps SangHo), not many P players have shown any tournament results. S-class Terrans: ITR, FoxeR (I'm hesitant to put him here, but he has played fantastic in the current GSL season). Most of the Ro64 GSL'ers are A-B class, and most of the North American Terrans like qxc, SeLeCT are A-class. S-class Zergs: FD (obviously), IdrA (KoTB win, MLG DC win). | ||
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
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Mise
Finland580 Posts
Why Protoss doesn't appeal to top level players might be that they are the least flexible race. Tech switching is hard and you have very few options untill late game, you basically either all in or go some sort of Robo build. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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DaRkFrosT
United States407 Posts
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noD
2230 Posts
@ the results i think it was somehow luck factor in bos .... | ||
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
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Nihilnovi
Sweden696 Posts
Not opening robo is just autolose so many times. + Show Spoiler + nexgenius pwnt by cloaked banshee when he tried anything that didnt involve robo The fact that T can be safe against any P with builds that are tilted towards harassment, timing push or macro makes them a very versatile race. P has no reliable way to scout without robo while T has scan & reaper. I can't remember the last time I saw a P set the pace of the game, every single P game I watch is basically the P going "shit shit shit hope I can survive the early - midgame without being too far behind". I'm not saying its imbalanced, I'm just pointing out what to me is a design flaw between the race dynamics which pidgeonholes P players into a really boring playstyle which is very predictable and leaves little room to do anything else. | ||
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dutpotd
Canada49 Posts
If the observer was built out of the Nexus, and available after any of the tier 2 structures (robo/stargate/council) were up then we would see things open up, see fewer all-ins, and earlier use of the high tier units that frankly aren't that high tier (as someone pointed out Carriers are pretty easily countered, same with Templar). Zerg has detection come from a vital/ingrained building (Lair) and so does Terran, Toss has to choose 1 of 3 tech routes to get detection - hell, to get decent scouting (okay, that is wrong, phoenix and hallucination is also very viable). I guess the thing is against Terran you pretty much have to go Robo or Forge it up or die horribly to Banshee; against Zerg you can get away without detection for a while... The issue against Zerg though is that it isn't 'as easy to expand early' against them and most Toss just can't keep up 1 base vs. 2, which makes sense - Protoss needs a lot of gas to contend/ (build most all of their units). I don't think there is a huge balance issue, I do think Toss is the required turtle/long-game race now, Zerg was that Race but the nerfs to other Races combined with some Roach buffs have given them a better early-mid game strength, one supported by a safe fast expand. - dut | ||
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