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On November 02 2010 03:09 Protoss_Carrier wrote:+ Show Spoiler +No protoss in GSL2 RO4, no protoss in GSL1 RO4 I am just wondering, why is protoss having such a poor showing? I open up game after game hoping for a protoss victory, but it just seems like protoss cannot compete. Is it due to the skill of protoss players, or the power of protoss does not scale well with level of competition? Or could it have to do with the number of completely unviable units protoss have? Let's discuss.
Spoilers for GSL 2 below if it weren't obvious from the title.
+ Show Spoiler +I think it's just luck of the draw really. Arguably the two top protoss players (Inca/Genius) in the tournament had to face each other in the last round, and Sang Ho ran into a buzzsaw in Fauxer, who has been tearing up his bracket since his win over Cool.
This deep into the tournament it really comes down to the players more than anything. Genius lost to Rainbow, who is a really strong player with great TvP. Is it strange that players like Cool, Ensnare and Rainbow eliminated all the top protoss before the quarter finals last GSL? I would say no, it could have just as easily gone the other way. After all it was just 3 games between very high level players.
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Same reason why protoss is pretty small in BW too, not enough high level players play Protoss.
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Honestly, aside from NEXGenius I don't think there are any superstrong Protoss players. Maybe they suffer the Stork syndrome (I'd rather play cellphone games than starcraft)? I was very disappointed + Show Spoiler + didn't make it, and am so glad + Show Spoiler + got through....am I retarded? haha
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because half of them made stupid 1 base all ins when people learned how to defend them in beta
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On November 02 2010 03:26 Sl4ktarN wrote:
Same reason why protoss is pretty small in BW too, not enough high level players play Protoss.
Yep, be it stigma from BW or stigma from protoss being nerfed over and over in beta, but many high level players seem to prefer Zerg/Terran.
Protoss right now still seems to be the race where its players rely more on 1 base all ins, which are getting more ineffective.. Though we have seen this GSL more forge FE and 15 nexus play, so this could be a light of change.
Either way, all the good protoss players have gone out to a player of equal or better skill level than them. So its not like they are getting crushed by no name terrans, like Zerg was at release.
Only thing of note in protoss land is sSKS not qualifying, but thats too much an outlier to speculate on.
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On November 02 2010 03:25 Jerubaal wrote:
It does seem like Protoss commonly employs a very small number of build orders and this makes them predictable in the early game. The fascinating parts of a Protoss build order are where and how many gateways to build and when to make a robo. And is it just me or have HTs seen significantly less use lately?
the part about going robo first is that u dont instant lose vs dts or banshees. if there would be some other kind of detection like sentry which can hallu some visible observer, then there even might be different builds. but as it is now, robo is a must have which is pretty stupid
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On November 02 2010 03:27 mierin wrote:Honestly, aside from NEXGenius I don't think there are any superstrong Protoss players. Maybe they suffer the Stork syndrome (I'd rather play cellphone games than starcraft)? I was very disappointed + Show Spoiler + didn't make it, and am so glad + Show Spoiler + got through....am I retarded? haha
Tester
But yeah, Protoss lacks the big names T and Z has coming over from star1.
And not to get off topic but + Show Spoiler + played his ass off in that series and + Show Spoiler + he deserves respect for how hard he played there. That was absolutely stunning to watch.
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On November 02 2010 03:25 Jerubaal wrote:
It does seem like Protoss commonly employs a very small number of build orders and this makes them predictable in the early game. The fascinating parts of a Protoss build order are where and how many gateways to build and when to make a robo. And is it just me or have HTs seen significantly less use lately?
This is what I meant by restricted. Protoss players don't go robo because they want to, in many situations its the only way to avoid a build order loss. Its also our most solid tech route, HTs are very time dependent and there's a stigma to stargates because of the perpetual nerfs.
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My platnium protoss thoughts, for what its worth, would be that Protoss units just arn't very cost effective when compared to MMM or whatever the zerg player will throw at you.
Now obviously this is a race characteristic, but when you lose that first colossus, or get your units HT/Sentry's especially) EMP'd its very hard to come back from. Gateway units just can't cut it without that collosus or high templar support. And its very easy to loose them, and with that, the game.
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In GSL1 there were 27 Protoss players and 7 made it to the R16.
In GSL2 there were 20 Protoss players and 3 made it to the R16 (with a mirror game).
Fewer players in the tournament, fewer in the top.
Zerg got a huge buts in representation in the higher rounds in gsl2 even though there were just as many (15) in the R64 both in GSL1 and GSL2 (7 players in R16).
Terran was represented by 29 players in R64 and 6 players in R16.
You can not analize tournaments by the number of players of one race in the higher rounds if you do not look at the total number of players that entered the tournament.
PS: one could say Zerg is very favorite with 7 out of 15 players making it to R16 but, player skill is a big factor that can not be determent by just looking at numbers.
So to answer the OP, fewer Protoss players in the tournament plus a big, big bust received by Zerg is why, IMO, Protoss is not well represented in the high rounds of GSL2.
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I think this season they are just unlucky.
In GSL1 the highest class protoss players consisted of NEXgenius, Iron, Anyproprime, Hongunprime, and Tester. I don't feel the 2 prime players are GSL finals level players so no surprise they aren't ranking too high. They aren't bad but when compared to a player like Cool or Tester, they aren't all that great. Rainbow knew how to counter Tester's style well and the #1 protoss was out. NEXgenius got screwed out of the RO64 and Iron just happened to play an opponent with sick preparation.
GSL2 rolls along and you have those 5 + Sangho. The prime players are still ok but not good enough to hit really high positions. Tester got screwed out in the qualifiers. Iron did some stupid 1 base build against Zergbong in both games. Sangho faced Foxer and just happened to bounce out. NEXgenius is doing alright
+ Show Spoiler +He lost to rainbow but RO8 is a decent showing
I feel Sangho, Tester, Iron, and NEXgenius are RO8 level players but they just happened to get unlucky.
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Protoss gameplay has developed the least since the game has come out, the race is not UP, they just are not being played to their full potential yet. IMO of course.
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I am just bummed because it seems that protoss does the same thing over and over again. I haven't really been inspired by any protoss play in the GSL. I forgot how many 4 gates I have seen in RO64 (way too many), and that is really a shame.
Protoss needs someone truly creative. I would love to see mothership and carrier used more as well.
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Protoss is very much on Tilt until mid-late game. 1 mistake can cost you in the early-mid like going Colossus to early can be your doom if the push comes and you dont have enough gateway units. Honestly it really is hard to tech switch as a protoss until you expo. I play protoss and I love the race I think PvZ is more dynamic than PvT is because you have to have that robo for banshee play its a must many times. I think maybe a possible solution that would make it to not have to go robo is just getting a forge in place of the 4th gate or the 3rd gate depending on build and just putting 1 cannon at the mineral line but this will delay some of the timing pushes from tech trees other than Robo or always expanding with the forge no matter the build so you dont have to trot down another tech tree.
Almost all expansion builds in PvT the robo is one of the first building in the beginning or is one of the first just as you expo.
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I want to see Socke compete in GSL3 or 4  . Imo he's the best P player in the world.
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I think it's about the player base. Z and T already have heavy hitter names from BW, and those are the guys that are owning it up. P does have some solid BW players in sSKS (Tester) and BabyByeBye (SangHo), but sSKS had an unfortunate loss in qualification for GSL2 and so the list of P players was not long on top tier talent.
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Because White-Ra is not there.
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On November 02 2010 03:41 Protoss_Carrier wrote:
I am just bummed because it seems that protoss does the same thing over and over again. I haven't really been inspired by any protoss play in the GSL. I forgot how many 4 gates I have seen in RO64 (way too many), and that is really a shame.
Protoss needs someone truly creative. I would love to see mothership and carrier used more as well.
Mothership Late game unit
Carrier late game unit
The other Races Goal is no late game for Protoss at least to the point where they can pull these units out easily or carriers in Mass its just to easy for other races to counter carriers.
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I think that a new selection of maps would be nice to help everyone get a second opinion if any race is underpowered or overpowered. I think only regular seasons with different maps in each season and the statistics following it would help.
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EPT
