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actually i think it is the fact that they don't play standard enough. With protoss it is very tempting to proxy stuff and do funny strats like dt or void ray.
Iron tried to be too cute with the warp prism play. Genius as well with the blink stalker. I dunno. It seems though that if you play very standard like Huk did ( except for his mothership rushes), you can gain considerable success as seen in NA scene. Huk especially is very methodical.
Anothing this is. protoss does not have the ability to scout well before observer (at least not as weel as Z/T as zerg can send fast lings all over the map and sacrifice overlord if necesarry, terran has scans. Means that protoss often get caught off guard by early game aggressions. ( Rainbow's thor rush, 7 roach rush, etc)
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On November 02 2010 03:30 Seide wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 03:26 Sl4ktarN wrote:
Same reason why protoss is pretty small in BW too, not enough high level players play Protoss. Yep, be it stigma from BW or stigma from protoss being nerfed over and over in beta, but many high level players seem to prefer Zerg/Terran. Protoss right now still seems to be the race where its players rely more on 1 base all ins, which are getting more ineffective.. Though we have seen this GSL more forge FE and 15 nexus play, so this could be a light of change. Either way, all the good protoss players have gone out to a player of equal or better skill level than them. So its not like they are getting crushed by no name terrans, like Zerg was at release. Only thing of note in protoss land is sSKS not qualifying, but thats too much an outlier to speculate on.
Though I somewhat agree that Protoss players are less skilled than Terran/Zerg players, I feel it's that because Protoss is the weakest race, less players are more willing to play it.
I feel as though Protoss is always at some sort of disadvantage early game/early mid and they always make up for it by doing something extra. A lot of Protoss players have to do a really aggressive push to get some sort of an advantage, like 4 gating, which puts them behind in tech for mid game, or risk going FFE, which puts them at risk for Roach busts or such.
Though I do agree Protoss is the least explored of all races, it's really hard to get to that point where you can mass carriers or do some really unorthodox strategy.
Just my thoughts.
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On November 02 2010 03:31 Invol2ver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 03:27 mierin wrote:Honestly, aside from NEXGenius I don't think there are any superstrong Protoss players. Maybe they suffer the Stork syndrome (I'd rather play cellphone games than starcraft)? I was very disappointed + Show Spoiler + didn't make it, and am so glad + Show Spoiler + got through....am I retarded? haha Tester But yeah, Protoss lacks the big names T and Z has coming over from star1. And not to get off topic but + Show Spoiler + played his ass off in that series and + Show Spoiler + he deserves respect for how hard he played there. That was absolutely stunning to watch.
Oh, completely agree, I am one of + Show Spoiler + biggest fans.
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Genius is really good but he lost due to bad scouting in almost every game. This is the reason why imho, protoss just try and do these 1 or 2 base builds and fall apart if something happens in the middle of it, or if their timing attack doesn't work out the way they planned.
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Maybe the question should be: why arent good players playing Protoss instead of why are there no good Protoss players?
Just not enough options, you always move with one big ball and try to survive until lategame. Harassing impossible / ineffective.
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A lot of the Toss players played stupid. Especially in the in 64 and 32 rounds. Other than that yeah, i agree there presence is a bit lower than expected.
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You mean there won't be any toss out of 4 players? Wow that's really shows a lot!
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It feels like mistakes cost alot more for Protoss than for other races. Few misplaced forcefields might cost the whole army for P or losing focus for a millisecond might lead to that stimmed army runs up the ramp while you could've FFed it.
Also because it takes so long (usually) to build up P's army you can never afford to lose all of it. Miscalculation in army sizes means instant gg after you lose most of it since usually there is zero defence in Protoss base. Compare this to terran who can pull of fast defence with siege tanks, PFs and repairing bunkers with scvs or to zerg who can build up a new army instantly if they have larva for it and don't forget queens and spine crawlers.
+ Show Spoiler + lost the last game today because his army was tiny tiny bit in a wrong position and hence couldn't make in time to def third. Small mistake cost him the whole game.
Basicly you can't afford even small mistakes most of the time but who can play perfectly?
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Well unlike the analysis from the lovely T players here, it probably is a balance issue. Early game toss seems pretty toothless. Especially vT. Early game PvT has the toss playing like a Zerg just absorbing attack after attack after attack to build a doomball with the splash units to do the damage.
The zealot nerf hurt more than commonly thought. That free expo v Z definitely changed the matchup. The big thing missing in SC2 v bw for toss is the lack of a viable harass option. I'm hoping we'll see some cool warp prism innovation.
Comparing it to NA isn't really valid considering... well... Foxer would win MLG anything.
It is fair to say, we havn't seen that many OOH AHH moments like we've seen with T or Z.
We'll see.
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I think one of the problems is that protoss really shines in the late game, but getting to that point is very difficult. The most trouble is with Terran who just have so many options early games. Until I get HTs out with 2 bases going its nearly hopeless.
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protoss is quite weak early game, making it very precarious for them if they do anything but a 4 gate. Once the toss starts hitting midgame is where it picks and lategame toss is nearly unstoppable. The problem here is that toss aren't adpating their early game to the roach buff and are getting killed due to that
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I play Toss and see a LOT of potential in IrOn and SangHO.
IrOn suicide tossed is matchup and lost.
Go figure.
He is stubborn like a mule when doing 1 base plays but I believe he's better playing late game.
SangHo seems really good, he just needs time to adapt to sc2 fully. I have no doubt SangHo will be another Cool/ITR.
Tester needs to return and show us what he's been doing for the past month and reclaim his dominance and position as the best toss in the world. Kid has SICK SICK macro.
Aside from that. I think there's an issue in early game for Toss. Yea we have the advantage late game, try getting there. People saying, why doesn't storm get used? TIME and TIME.
If your opponent is smart he'll see that you've only made gateways and just a move to win.
Storm takes SOOOOOOOOOOO long to make it's just not viable (mid game) if you did a robo opener (standard)
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I don't know why people point to 4 gate so much as a problem of Protoss play when its Robo dependency more than anything. You need that scouting information to make the appropriate choices or you can go for an early rush. PvZ allows protoss to be much more diverse in the builds they choose PvT is a much more delicate match up where it titter totters so much.
If you look at the common builds out there in PvT matchups robo is in the majority of them that is why many people say HT play is usually when your on your 3rd base. Cause banshee play can be murder to deal with and isn't far of the tech path for Terran.
No imba talk just stating the facts only possible decision I can see to deal with this currently is using the forge to hit up the mineral lines similar to many PvZ matchups to deal with banshee play, so that you can stay in the twilight tech tree longer or the stargate tech tree longer Game 4 of Genius vs ITR showed potential of void ray support with the main army using the voids similar to mutas for map control and contain I think that replacing the colossus with Templar tech and storm would have been much better but hindsight is always 20/20.
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Stop making HORRIBLE threads. Please.
User was warned for this post
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Speaking of Top Protoss players, Tastosis mentioned a player called Kisu several times. I'm not sure if I heard clearly, but is this just Tester's new name, or someone else completely?
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On November 02 2010 04:02 Alphaes wrote:
Speaking of Top Protoss players, Tastosis mentioned a player called Kisu several times. I'm not sure if I heard clearly, but is this just Tester's new name, or someone else completely?
Probably Seo Ki Soo ? Testers real name ( SKS )
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It's luck/fluctuations. Protoss performance in both GSLs don't indicate that they aren't capable of winning, it just didn't happen. Not to mention some terrible forcefields from SangHo.
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Canada13426 Posts
On November 02 2010 04:02 Alphaes wrote:
Speaking of Top Protoss players, Tastosis mentioned a player called Kisu several times. I'm not sure if I heard clearly, but is this just Tester's new name, or someone else completely?
I believe that yes it is Tester iirc it is his real name as well and it is spelled Ki Soo
TLPD entry on Tester
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wait the a long league to see, If the protoss are really solide..
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i think it is incredibly rude of people to actualy think that everyone that plays protoss is just terrible and completly exluce that something with the race might be broken..
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EPT
