|
On April 18 2011 07:09 Trsjnica wrote:
So... Zerg are 3-9 in the TSL. Started with 9 in a 32 person tournament, and by the round of 8, none remain. Perhaps they simply aren't trying hard enough?
I don't think the stats mean anything. Zergs do beat Protosses but it's usually with some kind of all-in, like a Roach bust, doom drop or 2-base Hydra creep highway, or they win by holding off an all-in by the Protoss. Very rarely do you see a Zerg win in a macro game where neither player had the upper hand before the lategame. If Zerg all-ins were much more powerful you could have totally even stats in the matchup, but it still wouldn't be a good matchup.
|
On April 18 2011 06:54 iNcontroL wrote:
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them
The mods should really just rename this thread into balance whine, considering that's all people do in this thread most of the time 
|
On April 18 2011 06:57 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:40 Talin wrote:Zerg players outside of Korea should be ashamed at this point that their strategies are being advanced by a player who doesn't play nearly full-time (Mondragon) and by an amateur player (Spanishiwa), and that even as non-refined and non-explored as their strategies are and as sloppy as their macro and overall mechanics are, they still allow both players to punch above their weight and actually show fantastic stuff in their games. Stop saying Spanishiwa's build is the solution to all the problems with Zerg like it's a proven fact. I'm sure all the top Zergs are aware of it and if they don't start using it in tournaments I'm sure they have a reason.
No, they just think they have a reason. It's not the first time the best of players have avoided something until it hit them in the face at a later point in time. And foreign Zergs seem even more conservative than the rest of the bunch, on average.
Anyway, I'm not saying either Spanish or Mondi have the "solution for all Zerg problems" (not that I would ever want Zergs to find the solution for all their problems), I'm saying they're genuinely in the process of solving it, and given their fundamental skill level or current shape (in Mondi's case), it's working out pretty damn well.
And if you can dismiss Spanishiwa as a "lol-amateur-not-high-level-enough" player (as if that meant anything in a game as young as SC2 -_-), I'd love to see the poor guy who dismisses Mondragon as an irrelevant player.
|
On April 18 2011 06:55 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:40 Talin wrote:On April 18 2011 06:24 Gunman_csz wrote:
^_^ I hope this week they revisit the balance topic, since now we have 5/8 protoss in TSL3.
I'll revisit it. Zerg players outside of Korea should be ashamed at this point that their strategies are being advanced by a player who doesn't play nearly full-time (Mondragon) and by an amateur player (Spanishiwa), and that even as non-refined and non-explored as their strategies are and as sloppy as their macro and overall mechanics are, they still allow both players to punch above their weight and actually show fantastic stuff in their games. So instead of "revisiting the topic" and starting another shitstorm of painful-to-read imba posts, why not go ladder yourself and try figuring one style or the other further? As in, actually contributing to Zerg instead of finding an excuse to vent and take balance jibes on forums. I'll leave this off with the quote provided by Kennigit in the LR thread: Kennigit says (4:57 PM):
you did well ^^ . Everyone on twitter was cheering for you
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
nah after the games vs cruncher
i found out how to play
XD
Kennigit says (4:58 PM):
hahah
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
wouldnt have lost now!
^^
roaches + infestors only are the key to everything
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
found out too late taht infestors are the key
!
Kennigit says (4:59 PM):
protoss death ball is -_-
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
yes
protoss deathball isnt tough anymore
if you make 10 infestors ^^
either infestors + roaches only
Kennigit says (5:00 PM):
haha
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
or just broodlords only + infestors only
both are fine
but i found out 3 days too late
Kennigit says (5:00 PM):
ahh ;;;
oh well, next time ^^
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
yep yep  ----- Did he really figure it out? I suppose we'll see, but I wouldn't be so quick to disregard anything he says. The least we can do, though, is learn from his attitude. 1st Stop saying that Zerg players like Morrow / Dimaga / Sen / IdrA / Darkforce among many others are not trying different stuff or "carrying their owe weight", their freaking livelihood depends on it, and the only person you are hurting in the argument is yourself, seriously stop spouting nonsense about Zergs aren't doing well because they just QQ and not practice.
Idra's a bad example, because he actual doesn't practice very much, and has admitted as much himself. I think he actually got banned not long ago for saying the practice was a waste of time for Zerg in an LR thread.
3. Attitude won't fix the game, balance will.
Not with an attitude like that, it won't.
|
For anyone thinking PvZ is imbalanced I present to you 107 pages of Protoss Tears from November 2010. 107 Pages of Protoss Thinking they where Underpowered. November 2010
Dont look at that thinking they didn't know how strong they where look at it as Protoss players have been where many Zerg players think their race is Currently in the State of the Game. The point is the match up isnt broken it just looks that way. When your the one affected by it. (you can't use 1 months worth of tournament results to say a race is over or underpowered.)
If anyone was following Sc2 during that time. They should realize that this is how the game works its aways going to sway. If anyone actually takes to the time to look through that thread you will see intelligent discussion soon become consumed by balance whines and people think all hope is lost. Just something to think about.
I'll do a little leg work for you. MLG is mentioned on page 3 and 12. This thread lasted until GSL 3 find that on page 100 and Blizzcon is refrenced on page 104 so yea. So don't just look at the First or Last page to summarize that entire thread.
I just want to present this into evidence and as a reminder as SoTG is going to talk about this and I think it is very relevant to "The Current State of the Game by looking at the Past State of the Game"
|
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 18 2011 07:16 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:40 Talin wrote:On April 18 2011 06:24 Gunman_csz wrote:
^_^ I hope this week they revisit the balance topic, since now we have 5/8 protoss in TSL3.
I'll revisit it. Zerg players outside of Korea should be ashamed at this point that their strategies are being advanced by a player who doesn't play nearly full-time (Mondragon) and by an amateur player (Spanishiwa), and that even as non-refined and non-explored as their strategies are and as sloppy as their macro and overall mechanics are, they still allow both players to punch above their weight and actually show fantastic stuff in their games. So instead of "revisiting the topic" and starting another shitstorm of painful-to-read imba posts, why not go ladder yourself and try figuring one style or the other further? As in, actually contributing to Zerg instead of finding an excuse to vent and take balance jibes on forums. I'll leave this off with the quote provided by Kennigit in the LR thread: + Show Spoiler +Kennigit says (4:57 PM):
you did well ^^ . Everyone on twitter was cheering for you
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
nah after the games vs cruncher
i found out how to play
XD
Kennigit says (4:58 PM):
hahah
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
wouldnt have lost now!
^^
roaches + infestors only are the key to everything
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
found out too late taht infestors are the key
!
Kennigit says (4:59 PM):
protoss death ball is -_-
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
yes
protoss deathball isnt tough anymore
if you make 10 infestors ^^
either infestors + roaches only
Kennigit says (5:00 PM):
haha
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
or just broodlords only + infestors only
both are fine
but i found out 3 days too late
Kennigit says (5:00 PM):
ahh ;;;
oh well, next time ^^
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
yep yep ----- Did he really figure it out? I suppose we'll see, but I wouldn't be so quick to disregard anything he says. The least we can do, though, is learn from his attitude. Well said. As a terran I'm looking forward to how terrans and zergs will improve against P over the next months, and i seriously hope there wont be any balance patches for a long long time. 5 months at least. And yeah, on a side note, mondragon wouldve stomped cruncher using infestors.
Yea obviously, I too see that hypothetical scenario looking in my crystal ball. so easy to speculate in hindsight, isn't it?
1st it was drops, then came in nydus, now its the infestors (can I predict wats next? 40overseers Seriously!!!). you are suffering from denial.
|
|
|
On April 18 2011 07:29 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 07:16 zeru wrote:On April 18 2011 06:40 Talin wrote:On April 18 2011 06:24 Gunman_csz wrote:
^_^ I hope this week they revisit the balance topic, since now we have 5/8 protoss in TSL3.
I'll revisit it. Zerg players outside of Korea should be ashamed at this point that their strategies are being advanced by a player who doesn't play nearly full-time (Mondragon) and by an amateur player (Spanishiwa), and that even as non-refined and non-explored as their strategies are and as sloppy as their macro and overall mechanics are, they still allow both players to punch above their weight and actually show fantastic stuff in their games. So instead of "revisiting the topic" and starting another shitstorm of painful-to-read imba posts, why not go ladder yourself and try figuring one style or the other further? As in, actually contributing to Zerg instead of finding an excuse to vent and take balance jibes on forums. I'll leave this off with the quote provided by Kennigit in the LR thread: + Show Spoiler +Kennigit says (4:57 PM):
you did well ^^ . Everyone on twitter was cheering for you
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
nah after the games vs cruncher
i found out how to play
XD
Kennigit says (4:58 PM):
hahah
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
wouldnt have lost now!
^^
roaches + infestors only are the key to everything
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
found out too late taht infestors are the key
!
Kennigit says (4:59 PM):
protoss death ball is -_-
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
yes
protoss deathball isnt tough anymore
if you make 10 infestors ^^
either infestors + roaches only
Kennigit says (5:00 PM):
haha
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
or just broodlords only + infestors only
both are fine
but i found out 3 days too late
Kennigit says (5:00 PM):
ahh ;;;
oh well, next time ^^
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
yep yep ----- Did he really figure it out? I suppose we'll see, but I wouldn't be so quick to disregard anything he says. The least we can do, though, is learn from his attitude. Well said. As a terran I'm looking forward to how terrans and zergs will improve against P over the next months, and i seriously hope there wont be any balance patches for a long long time. 5 months at least. And yeah, on a side note, mondragon wouldve stomped cruncher using infestors. Yea obviously, I too see that hypothetical scenario looking in my crystal ball. so easy to speculate in hindsight, isn't it? 1st it was drops, then came in nydus, now its the infestors (can I predict wats next? 40overseers Seriously!!!). you are suffering from denial.
If you have actually been looking at the games recently instead of just tournament statistics, drops and Infestors gave Z plenty of options they never even wanted to accept they have before.
So I suppose people who suggested them were right afterall.
And Overseers aren't such a bad idea either. They're potentially a great harassment unit, and lack of harassment options was a constant complaint for Zergs.
|
the only Zerg player I saw using infestors was sheth against Artosis.
Blizzard balanced the match-up around this unit and still people are not using it. it's sad...
|
On April 18 2011 07:27 oZii wrote:For anyone thinking PvZ is imbalanced I present to you 107 pages of Protoss Tears from November 2010. 107 Pages of Protoss Thinking they where Underpowered. November 2010Dont look at that thinking they didn't know how strong they where look at it as Protoss players have been where many Zerg players think their race is Currently in the State of the Game. The point is the match up isnt broken it just looks that way. When your the one affected by it. (you can't use 1 months worth of tournament results to say a race is over or underpowered.) If anyone was following Sc2 during that time. They should realize that this is how the game works its aways going to sway. If anyone actually takes to the time to look through that thread you will see intelligent discussion soon become consumed by balance whines and people think all hope is lost. Just something to think about. I'll do a little leg work for you. MLG is mentioned on page 3 and 12. This thread lasted until GSL 3 find that on page 100 and Blizzcon is refrenced on page 104 so yea. So don't just look at the First or Last page to summarize that entire thread. I just want to present this into evidence and as a reminder as SoTG is going to talk about this and I think it is very relevant to "The Current State of the Game by looking at the Past State of the Game"
Nice find , certainly does put a perspective on things. To think that was only five months ago too.
|
On April 18 2011 07:27 oZii wrote:For anyone thinking PvZ is imbalanced I present to you 107 pages of Protoss Tears from November 2010. 107 Pages of Protoss Thinking they where Underpowered. November 2010Dont look at that thinking they didn't know how strong they where look at it as Protoss players have been where many Zerg players think their race is Currently in the State of the Game. The point is the match up isnt broken it just looks that way. When your the one affected by it. (you can't use 1 months worth of tournament results to say a race is over or underpowered.) If anyone was following Sc2 during that time. They should realize that this is how the game works its aways going to sway. If anyone actually takes to the time to look through that thread you will see intelligent discussion soon become consumed by balance whines and people think all hope is lost. Just something to think about. I'll do a little leg work for you. MLG is mentioned on page 3 and 12. This thread lasted until GSL 3 find that on page 100 and Blizzcon is refrenced on page 104 so yea. So don't just look at the First or Last page to summarize that entire thread. I just want to present this into evidence and as a reminder as SoTG is going to talk about this and I think it is very relevant to "The Current State of the Game by looking at the Past State of the Game"
Wasn't Zerg crying at the same time, and the most protoss tears was due to Terran? zerg qq is not something new
|
On April 18 2011 07:42 ilbh wrote:
the only Zerg player I saw using infestors was sheth against Artosis.
Blizzard balanced the match-up around this unit and still people are not using it. it's sad...
Sheth seems to understand quite well how to play ZvP these day.
It's a shame we don't see him in more tournaments to highlight this. :/
|
On April 18 2011 07:18 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:54 iNcontroL wrote:
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them The mods should really just rename this thread into balance whine, considering that's all people do in this thread most of the time
but then they would have to change the name of almost every other thread also
|
I actually re-listened some of the old SoTG podcasts from last year, and Day[9] prophetically said in one of them: "I think people will think Protoss are the strongest race [after Terran], and then people will think Zerg are the strongest". 
I can't pinpoint the exact episode, but it was early September I think.
|
|
|
On April 18 2011 07:46 Talin wrote:I actually re-listened some of the old SoTG podcasts from last year, and Day[9] prophetically said in one of them: "I think people will think Protoss are the strongest race [after Terran], and then people will think Zerg are the strongest". I can't pinpoint the exact episode, but it was early September I think.
IdrA also correctly predicted that Protoss would become the strongest race some months ago.
And when IdrA was unknowingly streaming his practice games with EG, he said something along the lines of "Infestors were buffed to deal with the late game Protoss ball, but they still aren't that effective" and I have to somewhat agree. I think what made Infestors work was the stun duration, but now that's been cut in half. Even though the damage has been buffed, it doesn't do much.
|
On April 18 2011 07:44 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 07:27 oZii wrote:For anyone thinking PvZ is imbalanced I present to you 107 pages of Protoss Tears from November 2010. 107 Pages of Protoss Thinking they where Underpowered. November 2010Dont look at that thinking they didn't know how strong they where look at it as Protoss players have been where many Zerg players think their race is Currently in the State of the Game. The point is the match up isnt broken it just looks that way. When your the one affected by it. (you can't use 1 months worth of tournament results to say a race is over or underpowered.) If anyone was following Sc2 during that time. They should realize that this is how the game works its aways going to sway. If anyone actually takes to the time to look through that thread you will see intelligent discussion soon become consumed by balance whines and people think all hope is lost. Just something to think about. I'll do a little leg work for you. MLG is mentioned on page 3 and 12. This thread lasted until GSL 3 find that on page 100 and Blizzcon is refrenced on page 104 so yea. So don't just look at the First or Last page to summarize that entire thread. I just want to present this into evidence and as a reminder as SoTG is going to talk about this and I think it is very relevant to "The Current State of the Game by looking at the Past State of the Game" Wasn't Zerg crying at the same time, and the most protoss tears was due to Terran? zerg qq is not something new
They were crying all the way during Cool/NesTea's 2 GSL wins in a row. I wondered then what it would look like if they weren't actually winning anything - I guess now I know. xD
One thing that bugs me is that a lot of Zerg users on forums are actually making excuses when Zerg does something well. It's either "he got lucky", "the Protoss/Terran was sooooo bad", "he just used some weird strategy that would never work on high level, our race is still broken", and my favorite - "July just cheesed".
You hear these things every day. Really makes you wonder. -_-
|
On April 18 2011 07:50 Headshot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 07:46 Talin wrote:I actually re-listened some of the old SoTG podcasts from last year, and Day[9] prophetically said in one of them: "I think people will think Protoss are the strongest race [after Terran], and then people will think Zerg are the strongest". I can't pinpoint the exact episode, but it was early September I think. IdrA also correctly predicted that Protoss would become the strongest race some months ago. And when IdrA was unknowingly streaming his practice games with EG, he said something along the lines of "Infestors were buffed to deal with the late game Protoss ball, but they still aren't that effective" and I have to somewhat agree. I think what made Infestors work was the stun duration, but now that's been cut in half. Even though the damage has been buffed, it doesn't do much.
IdrA said Protoss just needs to work out their timings, which is such a general thing.
I could say the same thing about Zerg and cash in on the "prediction" line if Zerg ever do become very Strong.
|
On April 18 2011 07:44 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 07:27 oZii wrote:For anyone thinking PvZ is imbalanced I present to you 107 pages of Protoss Tears from November 2010. 107 Pages of Protoss Thinking they where Underpowered. November 2010Dont look at that thinking they didn't know how strong they where look at it as Protoss players have been where many Zerg players think their race is Currently in the State of the Game. The point is the match up isnt broken it just looks that way. When your the one affected by it. (you can't use 1 months worth of tournament results to say a race is over or underpowered.) If anyone was following Sc2 during that time. They should realize that this is how the game works its aways going to sway. If anyone actually takes to the time to look through that thread you will see intelligent discussion soon become consumed by balance whines and people think all hope is lost. Just something to think about. I'll do a little leg work for you. MLG is mentioned on page 3 and 12. This thread lasted until GSL 3 find that on page 100 and Blizzcon is refrenced on page 104 so yea. So don't just look at the First or Last page to summarize that entire thread. I just want to present this into evidence and as a reminder as SoTG is going to talk about this and I think it is very relevant to "The Current State of the Game by looking at the Past State of the Game" Wasn't Zerg crying at the same time, and the most protoss tears was due to Terran? zerg qq is not something new
Zerg had just won season 1 of GSL and received the roach buff for season 2. Zerg really wasn't qqing much then that i remember.
|
On April 18 2011 07:46 Talin wrote:I actually re-listened some of the old SoTG podcasts from last year, and Day[9] prophetically said in one of them: "I think people will think Protoss are the strongest race [after Terran], and then people will think Zerg are the strongest". I can't pinpoint the exact episode, but it was early September I think.
I remember this also.
On April 18 2011 07:50 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 07:44 Jiddra wrote:On April 18 2011 07:27 oZii wrote:For anyone thinking PvZ is imbalanced I present to you 107 pages of Protoss Tears from November 2010. 107 Pages of Protoss Thinking they where Underpowered. November 2010Dont look at that thinking they didn't know how strong they where look at it as Protoss players have been where many Zerg players think their race is Currently in the State of the Game. The point is the match up isnt broken it just looks that way. When your the one affected by it. (you can't use 1 months worth of tournament results to say a race is over or underpowered.) If anyone was following Sc2 during that time. They should realize that this is how the game works its aways going to sway. If anyone actually takes to the time to look through that thread you will see intelligent discussion soon become consumed by balance whines and people think all hope is lost. Just something to think about. I'll do a little leg work for you. MLG is mentioned on page 3 and 12. This thread lasted until GSL 3 find that on page 100 and Blizzcon is refrenced on page 104 so yea. So don't just look at the First or Last page to summarize that entire thread. I just want to present this into evidence and as a reminder as SoTG is going to talk about this and I think it is very relevant to "The Current State of the Game by looking at the Past State of the Game" Wasn't Zerg crying at the same time, and the most protoss tears was due to Terran? zerg qq is not something new They were crying all the way during Cool/NesTea's 2 GSL wins in a row. I wondered then what it would look like if they weren't actually winning anything - I guess now I know. xD One thing that bugs me is that a lot of Zerg users on forums are actually making excuses when Zerg does something well. It's either "he got lucky", "the Protoss/Terran was sooooo bad", "he just used some weird strategy that would never work on high level, our race is still broken", and my favorite - "July just cheesed". You hear these things every day. Really makes you wonder. -_-
Yea now I remember Zerg took Season 1 and Zergs where saying that Fruit was the exception rather than the rule. I then remember some he got lucky when Nestea won season 2. That was not very long ago. Times have surely changed kind of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
