|
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
Yup and we all know how open Mondi is (NOT, he is modest, polite and humble) you will never see him complaining even if that said imbalance is starting at his face. That is how he has always been.
|
On April 18 2011 06:33 Angelbelow wrote:
I dont see how day9, tlyer and incontrol can still say with a straight face that zergs arent having trouble right now. I respect all 3 and their opinions but maybe their suggestions arent realistic to execute while being "safe."
Also I get their perspective on balance and the old BW days, but this is NOT BW. If e-sports wants to take off even further than it is right now, balance will have to be one of the issues they have to address actively. Fans have been complaining about balance since september and its always about zergs, at this point there isnt much of an excuse. (Although blizzard has been active on patching things so I'm not blasting them here.) I also feel that the balance talk can be annoying and people will always find something to complain about, but we aren't catering to those folks when we make these changes.
It will be tough to balance Zerg for Blizzard. I have always felt the Z's pain even though I don't play Z, but I could see why Blizzard is extremely cautious when it comes to patching Z. Z has this explosive ability to produce and quickly overwhelm the opponent, and giving them a relative safety in early-mid game or even a mildly OP unit could mean the total collapse of balance because of spawn larvae.
So the Z buffs hasn't been really addressed in a direct fashion. Blizzard tends to nerf T/P where Z has trouble dealing instead of buffing Z. Only notable direct buff to Z was +1 roach range, and Z dominated for weeks simply on that buff until T/P caught up. (which no doubt alarmed Blizzard once more) In patch 1.30 they changed Infestors but they were, of course, oh-so careful so that people weren't sure whether it's a buff or nerf. Later on Blizzard explained it's meant to be a buff. We will see how it works out.
To be honest I don't know whether Z can be completely balanced without being OP/UP. At the least I have a feeling that it will be a very long time until Blizzard finds a sweet spot.
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them
|
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 18 2011 06:40 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:24 Gunman_csz wrote:
^_^ I hope this week they revisit the balance topic, since now we have 5/8 protoss in TSL3.
I'll revisit it. Zerg players outside of Korea should be ashamed at this point that their strategies are being advanced by a player who doesn't play nearly full-time (Mondragon) and by an amateur player (Spanishiwa), and that even as non-refined and non-explored as their strategies are and as sloppy as their macro and overall mechanics are, they still allow both players to punch above their weight and actually show fantastic stuff in their games. So instead of "revisiting the topic" and starting another shitstorm of painful-to-read imba posts, why not go ladder yourself and try figuring one style or the other further? As in, actually contributing to Zerg instead of finding an excuse to vent and take balance jibes on forums. I'll leave this off with the quote provided by Kennigit in the LR thread: Kennigit says (4:57 PM):
you did well ^^ . Everyone on twitter was cheering for you
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
nah after the games vs cruncher
i found out how to play
XD
Kennigit says (4:58 PM):
hahah
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
wouldnt have lost now!
^^
roaches + infestors only are the key to everything
Mondragon says (4:58 PM):
found out too late taht infestors are the key
!
Kennigit says (4:59 PM):
protoss death ball is -_-
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
yes
protoss deathball isnt tough anymore
if you make 10 infestors ^^
either infestors + roaches only
Kennigit says (5:00 PM):
haha
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
or just broodlords only + infestors only
both are fine
but i found out 3 days too late
Kennigit says (5:00 PM):
ahh ;;;
oh well, next time ^^
Mondragon says (5:00 PM):
yep yep  ----- Did he really figure it out? I suppose we'll see, but I wouldn't be so quick to disregard anything he says. The least we can do, though, is learn from his attitude.
1st Stop saying that Zerg players like Morrow / Dimaga / Sen / IdrA / Darkforce among many others are not trying different stuff or "carrying their owe weight", their freaking livelihood depends on it, and the only person you are hurting in the argument is yourself, seriously stop spouting nonsense about Zergs aren't doing well because they just QQ and not practice.
2. You are not part of the Korean community, do you speak Korean or read playxp??? how and why would you assume that Koreans are not complaining too? Because last time I checked in artosis's videos everyone was complaining (coachs, zerg players, and non-zergs too).
3. Attitude won't fix the game, balance will.
|
On April 18 2011 06:42 Gunman_csz wrote:Yup and we all know how open Mondi is (NOT, he is modest, polite and humble) you will never see him complaining even if that said imbalance is starting at his face. That is how he has always been.
What he said there has nothing to do with being polite, modest or humble.
It is one thing to not complain about imbalance but it is another to out right say something isn't as tough as it use to be due to a playstyle change.
But it is fine though, you can keep your cynical view on things, but it is nice to see a player that has been playing this game much less than any of the other Pro zergs but has actually revised his own play enough to where HE has found a solution to what plagues other Zergs.
|
On April 18 2011 06:40 Talin wrote:Zerg players outside of Korea should be ashamed at this point that their strategies are being advanced by a player who doesn't play nearly full-time (Mondragon) and by an amateur player (Spanishiwa), and that even as non-refined and non-explored as their strategies are and as sloppy as their macro and overall mechanics are, they still allow both players to punch above their weight and actually show fantastic stuff in their games.
Stop saying Spanishiwa's build is the solution to all the problems with Zerg like it's a proven fact. I'm sure all the top Zergs are aware of it and if they don't start using it in tournaments I'm sure they have a reason.
On April 18 2011 06:54 iNcontroL wrote:
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them
People QQ here because this thread is so bad not even the mods open it.
|
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 18 2011 06:54 iNcontroL wrote:
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them
Yeap 1-2 infestors and mongradon could have A-moved into victory (like the way it is for protoss) !!!
I think not geoff 
EDIT:
Also its not about zerg losing, more about 5/8 Protoss in TSL (which you smartly ignored !).
|
Any losses in TSL ro16 d4 were the result of one player being twice as skilled as the other. The losers played horribly and was painful to watch.
Furthermore, the commentators didn't have a great understanding of what is really going on.
|
On April 18 2011 06:58 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:54 iNcontroL wrote:
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them Yeap 1-2 infestors and mongradon could have A-moved into victory (like the way it is for protoss) !!! I think not geoff
no but with 10 he couldve f-clicked himself to victory.
perhaps.
|
On April 18 2011 06:58 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:54 iNcontroL wrote:
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them Yeap 1-2 infestors and mongradon could have A-moved into victory (like the way it is for protoss) !!! I think not geoff
Uh, Cruncher didn't A-move into victory at any point during the last game (well obviously at the end when it was clearly over)
|
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 18 2011 06:56 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:42 Gunman_csz wrote:Yup and we all know how open Mondi is (NOT, he is modest, polite and humble) you will never see him complaining even if that said imbalance is starting at his face. That is how he has always been. What he said there has nothing to do with being polite, modest or humble. It is one thing to not complain about imbalance but it is another to out right say something isn't as tough as it use to be due to a playstyle change. But it is fine though, you can keep your cynical view on things, but it is nice to see a player that has been playing this game much less than any of the other Pro zergs but has actually revised his own play enough to where HE has found a solution to what plagues other Zergs.
I am not cynical, its you guys are in Denialism. OPEN your eyes. just stating over and over again that zerg aren't trying or being lazy is stupid in itself.
|
On April 18 2011 07:01 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 06:54 iNcontroL wrote:
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them Yeap 1-2 infestors and mongradon could have A-moved into victory (like the way it is for protoss) !!! I think not geoff Uh, Cruncher didn't A-move into victory at any point during the last game (well obviously at the end when it was clearly over)
While he did have a very good defense against the drops, I think thats what happened on the game in Shakura's. Eventually the deathball got big enough off his 3base and he just moved in and won.
|
On April 18 2011 07:04 Absolutionn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 07:01 Dommk wrote:On April 18 2011 06:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 06:54 iNcontroL wrote:
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them Yeap 1-2 infestors and mongradon could have A-moved into victory (like the way it is for protoss) !!! I think not geoff Uh, Cruncher didn't A-move into victory at any point during the last game (well obviously at the end when it was clearly over) While he did have a very good defense against the drops, I think thats what happened on the game in Shakura's. Eventually the deathball got big enough off his 3base and he just moved in and won.
Well it was over at that point, Mondragon had lost too many units. It was like 3 Colossus, 5 Voidrays (with 2 more making), bunch of sentries and 10 Stalkers vs 8-10 Corruptors, 10 Roaches and a bunch of lings. You really can't do anything other than attack move where there is that big of a disparity
It was really weird, Mondragon had 170 population but such a small army when Cruncher finally took the fight to him
Also its not about zerg losing, more about 5/8 Protoss in TSL (which you smartly ignored !).
What do you want them to say? Zerg have been having a tough time against Protoss. Not like PvT is imbalanced. QCX went 2-0 against Genius but lost to AdellScott who 2-0'd MVP.
Naniwa, Hasuobs, AdellScott, oGsMC and Cruncher, you honestly can't say that any of them didn't deserve to be there.
Look at all the great Protoss who didn't make it, White-ra, Kiwikaki, Socke, NightEnd, Genius, Liquid'Tyler.
TSL Open has such great players, if Zerg weren't having such a hard time, it really wouldn't be that much of a surprise if the RO8 happened to be all Zerg, all Protoss or all Terran
|
On April 18 2011 07:06 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 07:04 Absolutionn wrote:On April 18 2011 07:01 Dommk wrote:On April 18 2011 06:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 18 2011 06:54 iNcontroL wrote:
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them Yeap 1-2 infestors and mongradon could have A-moved into victory (like the way it is for protoss) !!! I think not geoff Uh, Cruncher didn't A-move into victory at any point during the last game (well obviously at the end when it was clearly over) While he did have a very good defense against the drops, I think thats what happened on the game in Shakura's. Eventually the deathball got big enough off his 3base and he just moved in and won. Well it was over at that point, Mondragon had lost too many units. It was like 3 Colossus, 5 Voidrays (with 2 more making), bunch of sentries and 10 Stalkers vs 8-10 Corruptors, 10 Roaches and a bunch of lings. You really can't do anything other than attack move at that point. It was really weird, Mondragon had 170 population but such a small army when Cruncher finally took the fight to him
It's not weird, that's how zerg is. 70-80 workers, 10-14 pop in queens, and 2 pop roaches = not a big army.
|
So... Zerg are 3-9 in the TSL. Started with 9 in a 32 person tournament, and by the round of 8, none remain. Perhaps they simply aren't trying hard enough?
|
On April 18 2011 06:58 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:54 iNcontroL wrote:
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them Yeap 1-2 infestors and mongradon could have A-moved into victory (like the way it is for protoss) !!! I think not geoff EDIT: Also its not about zerg losing, more about 5/8 Protoss in TSL (which you smartly ignored !).
do you even play protoss.... a moving takes about as much skill as loading up an overlord.. so please just be quiet.. and yes 1-2 infesters would have won those games - the cannon rush.
Due note also 3-8 terran... OH my 2 more this must be balance related... Please stop being ignorant and stop making blind balance statements when you yourself are probably platnium
|
On April 17 2011 01:32 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 19:32 Talin wrote:
You think Idra is doing "just fine"? He's doing horrible for his skill level.
You're assuming IdrA is more skilled than his opponents then going from there.
So you're saying I'm just assuming that he's more skilled because he trained for 10+ hours a day on two Korean pro teams, is widely recognized by almost every pro player in the west for being a mechanically superior player, and all of that is obvious from pretty much every game he plays.
Yeah, that sounds about right.
On April 17 2011 01:32 Yaotzin wrote:
Other BW pros do very, very well. MVP, MC...perhaps the difference with IdrA is that he's Zerg, perhaps the difference is that he isn't as good as his fans believe.
Your example of "other" BW pros that do well include two former A teamers (fringe A teamers maybe, but it's a big difference nonetheless). They're supposed to be doing better in SC2 than IdrA.
At some level, mechanical players are going to have an edge - if Bisu dedicated his whole practice time to SC2, he would manhandle everybody on the SC2 scene currently. But the difference only shows when it's really massive (as is the case with MVP versus most SC2 progamers). And that's just not good enough.
On April 17 2011 01:32 Yaotzin wrote:
I agree this shouldn't be possible (well, assuming they play well), but only after the game is mostly figured out ala BW. SC2 is nowhere near that stage. All pros lose to strange shit they've never seen. They also lose to strategies that haven't been figured out yet. Which is normal and fine.
I'll give you that (since I actually argued the same thing a few pages back against the Imba swarm). But it still looks a little bit too easy to get away with playing sloppy even now.
I'm all for losing to new strategies that haven't been figured out. But it's a moot point when you manage to execute a strategy with horrible mechanics and the strategy is THAT GOOD that it allows you to beat players who are leaps and bounds better at the raw skill of just playing.
I certainly haven't been around since the beginning of Brood War, but I doubt that was the case even in the earliest stages of actual serious competitions. The metagame did evolve, but so did the execution evolved alongside it - I doubt there were a lot of cases where a clearly inferior player beat a top one just by having figured out a new strategy, especially if the difference in skill was so absurd as in the Goody vs Nestea case.
That's actually the whole point - more advanced strategies should always be harder to execute and more demanding mechanically than the ones before. That's how Brood War evolved.
On April 17 2011 01:32 Yaotzin wrote:
This is complete garbage. You can make things difficult by forcing people to remember to do stuff, or force them to make choices. Do I chrono my warpgate or my sentry? Remembering to inject. Etc. Forcing people to fight against a crap interface in order to what they wish is simply retarded. BW's interface was acceptable for its time, but for modern times it is complete and utter trash.
Sure you can make things difficult by forcing people to remember and make the right choices. But that isn't the only kind of difficulty that a competitive game requires, in fact I would argue that it's a completely wrong kind of difficulty.
What you're talking about in your examples is basically decision making based gameplay. Having gameplay rely too much on players being smart, making the right decisions or coming up with clever strategies is exactly what SC2 does... and it obviously isn't working as well as BW (whether it will work in the future remains to be seen, I'd rather not speculate on that).
When you want to raise mechanical difficulty, the ONLY way to do it is by limiting interface and control the player has over the game. It's the only way. There's literally no way you could do it otherwise, and if you think there is, I'd love to hear it.
Even Starcraft 2 forces people to fight the interface -
- a lot of the actions you are not allowed to do on the minimap for example (Warp in mechanic)
- you do not have the option to bind more than 9 hotkeys to a control group
- you can not bind keys directly to building commands without selecting the actual buildings (eg. build Marine without selecting Barracks first)
- you can not edit the GUI in the same way you can do in WoW to put things where you want them to be on the screen (eg. resources/supply just above minimap)
All of these and many more are examples that didn't get left out of the game by mistake or rushed deadline. All of these are really intuitive if we're talking purely about interface, and really easy to implement.
IMO, you're completely misunderstanding how the game works, which is exactly why I made the comparison to application software. The control interface between player and the game is part of GAME DESIGN.
The goal is almost never to make it as convenient for the player as possible in any real-time game, because the focus of most competitive-oriented real-time game is ultimately on skillful execution of actions. The entire mechanical difficulty of RTS games comes from two things and two things alone: interface and AI (pathing/formations/etc). If you make interface and AI genuinely good, you lose half the actual gameplay.
And just for the record, implementing automining and multiple building selections would be piss easy in Brood War, and there were no technical limitations to do it. In fact, I imagine workers had to be specifically programmed NOT to automine if you rallied on the minerals. None of those decisions were made for technical reasons and because nobody knew what a good interface was at the time. They were game design decisions.
Sure you can go for the argument of "Blizzard and everyone agrees with me", but that's just a sugarcoated mass appeal argument. It's only because gamers today want easier games. That's also the reason why we have so many imba whiners these days and we never had them in BW - people just don't have the drive for self-improvement a gamer was required to have to be good in the games that were actually good. Now they want convenient interfaces and balance patches until they're happy.
I just want retarded Dragoons back. =(
|
Against a colossi-based army infestors for me are super hard to use because of their range, so i would love to hear their thoughts on this. I know State of the Game mainly revolves around the GSL, TSL, MLG, NASL..... sometimes i think it should be State of the Games or Tournaments, but a juicy/lengthy discussion on the actual state of the game or gameplay would be lovely.
Listening to some of the older episodes TLO, Jinro... pretty much every guest, talking about how they were using specific units was really interesting and insightful.
An episode like that is much needed now for zergs i think.
Either way i will be listening.
|
|
|
On April 18 2011 06:54 iNcontroL wrote:
Zerg lost in a tourney
GET TO THE STATE OF THE GAME THREAD! I NEED TO YELL AT SOMEONE!!!
PS: Mondragon is a total fucking boss lol. He was absolutely lacking infesters in all his games and easily could have mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmonstered cruncher with them
The irony of that post is nothing short of hilarious.
YOU'RE JUST AS BAD! JUST ON THE OTHER SIDE!
PS: Yes I can write in caps too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
