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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
The amount of work even someone like IdrA has put into his ZvP is staggering. Yeah. Idra's ZvP is pretty crazy lately, in tournaments. I've seen him do 'standard' roach play, roach burrow movement all-in, roach burrow-movement defense of a 6-gate, roach drops, hydra drops, ling with baneling drops and infestors, roach-ling allin, spinecrawler-hydra-creep-highway all-in and a 6-pool. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:34 Logo wrote: True, but that's just one example and it's a pretty out-there build. Since it's a defensive opening guide it's also pretty expected to have people argue more about "the build will hold" or "it will fail". Still there's plenty of constructive comments in a lot of the zerg threads now that we have the Purge. You can also go look at something like MrBitter's ZvT thread about going for infestors ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193058¤tpage=20 ). A ton of thoughtful replies about a strategy that really wasn't new at all (it had some limited popularity back in early beta and when TLO played Zerg). Yep, that's also true. Btw, thanx to your post I noticed that Sheth stream is live, and I love it =) One of my favorite ZvPer, Korean included. Also, you talked about zergs streams, I main terran, I offrace zerg (but rarely), and I watch quasi-exclusively zerg's streams. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:55 Dragar wrote: Yeah. Idra's ZvP is pretty crazy lately, in tournaments. I've seen him do 'standard' roach play, roach burrow movement all-in, roach burrow-movement defense of a 6-gate, roach drops, ling with baneling drops and infestors, roach-ling allin, spinecrawler-hydra-creephighway all-in and a 6-pool. yeah for sure. NASL spoiler + Show Spoiler + Look at his games vs Socke even! He has everything for the fake 3-gate down almost perfectly (he scouts RIGHT at the cancel, he clearly knows what time it's supposed to be canceled). Then in the following 2 games he might as well have had full map vision given how he played reading Socke flawlessly to take both the games. | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
You can play macro style, you can over drone, but you can still lose to a Toss playing standard. Mass drops is just another type of cheese for a Zerg player, if they hold it at all, you're already behind to the point where you will lose. Unfortunate state of zerg, yet IdrA gets so much hate. Mass Drops a cheese? Really? i don't believe all Zergs are playing to their full potential. Also i don't know why Mondragon style had to be invented? Like InControl said, finally a Zerg play like a Zerg and not almost like a BW Terran (nice comment btw, heard it on his stream). Or Spanishiwas Build? I first heard about it 2 weeks go. I think there is much more to detect, but there are so many Zergs who just say "We try everything" but don't do it. | ||
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JuuMeijin
Sweden164 Posts
I don't see any Protoss playing to their full potential either, drops being one of many examples example *cough*. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
On April 19 2011 00:58 Logo wrote: yeah for sure. NASL spoiler + Show Spoiler + Look at his games vs Socke even! He has everything for the fake 3-gate down almost perfectly (he scouts RIGHT at the cancel, he clearly knows what time it's supposed to be canceled). Then in the following 2 games he might as well have had full map vision given how he played reading Socke flawlessly to take both the games. Well... + Show Spoiler + In game 1 it sucked as he reacted pretty much as well as he could have, but it just wasn't in time with the forcefield on the ramp. The second game he got very, very lucky - the hydra drops would have been pretty ineffective and put him way behind in both army and economy, were it not for the fact Socke appeared to fall asleep and let 20-30 (no joke) probes get shot by Idra's small, second drop of hydralisks. In the third game he basically guessed Socke would do the nexus cancel again and it worked. It wasn't scouted, Idra is just very good at reading players (if it backfires he looks like an idiot, but people don't give him enough credit for this). In his interview he basically said he cheesed. It's great he was able to win, and it's the right call to get wins however he can, but it's not stable play to be honest. | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:06 Deskaru wrote: Drops are fairly risky and they need to be quite large otherwise it can't do any damage duo to how warpgates work, which in turn makes it very risky if it's unsuccessful. I don't see any Protoss playing to their full potential either, drops being one of many examples example *cough*. But they are stillno form of cheese. If you lose one Ovi with 4 Roaches it costed way less than a terran medivac with 4 Marauder. Would you say a terran who drops on 2 fronts with 2 medivacs on each side cheeses? And of course Protoss players don't play to ther full potential, we just realized we played the complete opposite of what is good (despite Day9 all the time calling the right strategies ^^), now give us time to perfect these strategies. And invent stuff what we can throw in there. | ||
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imbs
United Kingdom320 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:13 gnutz wrote: But they are stillno form of cheese. If you lose one Ovi with 4 Roaches it costed way less than a terran medivac with 4 Marauder. Would you say a terran who drops on 2 fronts with 2 medivacs on each side cheeses? And of course Protoss players don't play to ther full potential, we just realized we played the complete opposite of what is good (despite Day9 all the time calling the right strategies ^^), now give us time to perfect these strategies. And invent stuff what we can throw in there. i think the reason it is considered all-in is because of the rush to lair + drops and the amount of roaches you need to drop to be effective. | ||
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VENDIZ
1575 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:06 Deskaru wrote: Drops are fairly risky and they need to be quite large otherwise it can't do any damage duo to how warpgates work, which in turn makes it very risky if it's unsuccessful. I don't see any Protoss playing to their full potential either, drops being one of many examples example *cough*. .. then again; protoss players aren't bitching like a motherf**cker either ;D I'm sure protoss will hit a brick wall soon enough, then you'll see more experimental play. A fitting saying in this case would be "never change a winning team" really | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:18 imbs wrote: i think the reason it is considered all-in is because of the rush to lair + drops and the amount of roaches you need to drop to be effective. If you look close and watch Mondragons or Spanishiwas Style you will see that nothing of their gameplan is "rushing to lair and getting the amount of roaches to be effective". Mondragon drops with 4-8 Roaches onone side, not with a huge amount. Spanishiwa uses Zerglings. You will not say to me 8 Zerglings are expensive, do you? | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:13 gnutz wrote: But they are stillno form of cheese. If you lose one Ovi with 4 Roaches it costed way less than a terran medivac with 4 Marauder. Would you say a terran who drops on 2 fronts with 2 medivacs on each side cheeses? And of course Protoss players don't play to ther full potential, we just realized we played the complete opposite of what is good (despite Day9 all the time calling the right strategies ^^), now give us time to perfect these strategies. And invent stuff what we can throw in there. 4 roaches aren't really enough to do significant damage before cleaned up. 4 Hydras can though. Zerg units work better in larger numbers than Terran units. It depends on the kinds of drops you're talking about. If you're talking about NASL + Show Spoiler + then yea Idra was all-in with his hydra-drop timing. Idra even said so himself. But if you're doing massive drops later in the game while expanding and such then no of course it's not all-in. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:06 Deskaru wrote: Drops are fairly risky and they need to be quite large otherwise it can't do any damage duo to how warpgates work, which in turn makes it very risky if it's unsuccessful. I don't see any Protoss playing to their full potential either, drops being one of many examples example *cough*. With such a conservative mindset, you could consider anything that isn't sitting in the base, expanding and building up army "risky". You need to take calculated risks and cut corners on the highest level of play, even by playing what you perceive to be a perfectly safe style you risk being overwhelmed by a player that's just a little bit more greedier and/or aggressive. Protoss unfortunately don't play to their full potential at all because in the current metagame they don't really need to. Unfortunately this means a lot of players that genuinely aren't that good and can't multitask to save their life are being more successful than they should. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:06 Dragar wrote: Well... + Show Spoiler + In game 1 it sucked as he reacted pretty much as well as he could have, but it just wasn't in time with the forcefield on the ramp. The second game he got very, very lucky - the hydra drops would have been pretty ineffective and put him way behind in both army and economy, were it not for the fact Socke appeared to fall asleep and let 20-30 (no joke) probes get shot by Idra's small, second drop of hydralisks. In the third game he basically guessed Socke would do the nexus cancel again and it worked. It wasn't scouted, Idra is just very good at reading players (if it backfires he looks like an idiot, but people don't give him enough credit for this). In his interview he basically said he cheesed. It's great he was able to win, and it's the right call to get wins however he can, but it's not stable play to be honest. + Show Spoiler + I didn't mean to imply it was, but it did show a lot of effort on Idra's part to have such a solid plan vs Socke. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
On April 19 2011 02:07 Logo wrote: + Show Spoiler + I didn't mean to imply it was, but it did show a lot of effort on Idra's part to have such a solid plan vs Socke. Absolutely. He has a hell of a lot of worked out for his ZvP. | ||
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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
On April 18 2011 16:01 IdrA wrote: pretty much every single high level zerg, besides mondragon apparently, has been publicly bitching about zerg since release. some are more vocal than others. im not even the most depressed with the state of the game. people just pay more attention when i say stuff. zerg is broken. IdrA you've made this statement quite a few times but I've never read any explanation for it. I'm sure you could make a nice detailed post covering everything that makes you think makes zerg broken and I would love to read that. I know you mentioned some of the issues but never really gone indepth. If you have the time I would like to see you also review some of the games that most people bring up in response to your statement. Basically do anything other than just make a statement. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:48 Talin wrote: With such a conservative mindset, you could consider anything that isn't sitting in the base, expanding and building up army "risky". You need to take calculated risks and cut corners on the highest level of play, even by playing what you perceive to be a perfectly safe style you risk being overwhelmed by a player that's just a little bit more greedier and/or aggressive. Protoss unfortunately don't play to their full potential at all because in the current metagame they don't really need to. Unfortunately this means a lot of players that genuinely aren't that good and can't multitask to save their life are being more successful than they should. Care to name examples of people with terrible multitasking succeeding at "the highest level of play"? When I watch protoss matches, I see people like Tyler (who has always had multitasking I've admired as a player) struggling when they're not at the top of their game. Say what you will about people who do throw their 1-basing cheese around on the ladder against people who can still lose to cannons 3 consecutive games, but I really don't find your assertion to be representative of the protoss players you see in high level tournaments like TSL, GSL, MLG, etc. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:06 Dragar wrote: Well... + Show Spoiler + In game 1 it sucked as he reacted pretty much as well as he could have, but it just wasn't in time with the forcefield on the ramp. The second game he got very, very lucky - the hydra drops would have been pretty ineffective and put him way behind in both army and economy, were it not for the fact Socke appeared to fall asleep and let 20-30 (no joke) probes get shot by Idra's small, second drop of hydralisks. In the third game he basically guessed Socke would do the nexus cancel again and it worked. It wasn't scouted, Idra is just very good at reading players (if it backfires he looks like an idiot, but people don't give him enough credit for this). In his interview he basically said he cheesed. It's great he was able to win, and it's the right call to get wins however he can, but it's not stable play to be honest. Fruitdealer and Nestea both won gsls with "not stable play". They both took great risks and reaped great reward. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
Zerg players experiment quite a bit but we are only beginning to see people experiment with new unit compositions, I think there is hope without needing a balance patch, we just need to get better at using different units, roach/hydra/corrupter is as dead as dead can be. | ||
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thesideshow
930 Posts
On April 19 2011 02:29 Treemonkeys wrote: The problem with ZvP is roach/hydra/corrupter, it's getting more and more obvious how weak it is. Obviously I'm no pro but if I was I would rather 6 pool every game than go roach/hydra/corrupter every game, unless it is something fancy (Mondragon style) it is usually unbearable to watch (Ret / Idra) because I already know how hopeless their maxed army is, yet they continue going for it. Zerg players experiment quite a bit but we are only beginning to see people experiment with new unit compositions, I think there is hope without needing a balance patch, we just need to get better at using different units, roach/hydra/corrupter is as dead as dead can be. I assume you haven't watched NASL today | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
On April 19 2011 02:25 Madkipz wrote: Fruitdealer and Nestea both won gsls with "not stable play". They both took great risks and reaped great reward. Bib-by-bit did great with non-stable play too (and I'd never consider Nestea to be terribly risky in his play). | ||
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EPT
lol nony your actions are contradictory, you complain about PvP (ramps) in your game vs Mana which was broadcasted to thousands of people and yet you tell the most posters here to an equivalent of stfu and point fingers at how bad pro Zergs players conduct themselves. Imagine how frustrating forcefields (ramps) are for Zergs in PvZ or the entire PvZ matchup !!!
