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On July 01 2012 17:36 Dustus wrote:
Id say that scoots replyd like he did as eg see no problem with what happend and to show that he says to unfollow all of eg.i have to agree with ghim. Avilo brought nothing new to the table,if he just listend to the whole idro qxc bit he wouldnt have needed to be brought on as he wasnt going to be adding much more to what had already been a productive discussion.i cant really believe people are up in arms about this seems very strange to me. Id say that if something like this is upsetting you so much that you need to be emailing people then maybe you need to take a step back from sc2 take a few deep breaths and evaluate why this is making you so angry and maybe you need a break from it.there are much bigger things to get involved with at that level then this and maybe your in so far that you are blinded by bias rage like a fan in normal sports. In otherwords everyone should chill out
Just trying to clarify a bit here. Why I am so disappointed,(and others views may vary) is not because IdrA lost his temper with Avilo, but because Avilo was brought on in the first place. The debate that QXC and IdrA had in the first portion of the show was incredibly well done and both players covered the topic very well. But to turn around and bring on someone who has had known conflict with IdrA in the past against IdrA's own wishes even was pretty silly. I understand that it was meant to be a joke and not be taken seriously, but as I mentioned earlier it is a little bit cruel.
Anyways, I agree with you when you say that there are more important issues than this but it never hurts to try and better the community no matter how small the issue. In this case, I don't believe going to sponsors or management is worth it and I feel that more harm then good will be done by that. I hope I was able to give you a bit of a glimpse of my perspective on the matter!
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On July 02 2012 03:43 Braric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 02:29 Roarer wrote:I am truly a bit shocked how part of the community react to the negative feedback to the show - labelling feedback as irrational reply / a witch hunt instead of understanding the meaning behind all these feedback. Most people replying to this incident are expressing the bottom line for disrespect behaavior. All these replies in fact shape up what behavior is acceptable and unacceptable in the scene. People complaining / expressing disappiontment are just explaining the basic respect someone deserve. People labelling others feedback as witchhunt, are actually asking people, who have a different opinion, to keep quiet and accept whatever the show give us. Asking others to appreciate what the community is gifted is fine but asking the community to be less vocal is not. It's because that's how the community express itself to people outside of the community. It is a way to signal the current leaders / figure heads what the community want and why. It's like voting for a politic party and giving explanations for how and why the decisions are made that way. It directs the growth of the community and affects how the community as a whole is treated in the eyes of the greater public, the world outside of E-sportz. The community has to keep vocal to show everyone its characteristics and values. For the show / JP itself, this is nothing more than a lesson. It just shows what is welcomed and what is not. It's like giving the show some idea how much support will SotG receive if the same behavior is continued. It's like voting, # of people think highly of personality of each host vs # of people think highly of respect & professionalism. As far as things go, it seems the votes for the later is greater than votes for the earlier. It clearly indicates if Day9 / tasteless/ Artosis /Apollo start a similar show will have a greater success simply because of their personality and attitude. It gives clear guidiance on what has to be done if JP intends to make SotG the # 1 podcast for SC2. People have to look at all these feedbacks in another perspective - community's self expression. That way, everyone can gain more from this incident. Right now, the comments are taken way too personal. In fact, it is more like people are disappionted by the hosts attitude & behavior rather than people are disappionted by the hosts themslves. Pointing fingers at each other and dividing the community is never a good thing when we can join together to reach our goal. My stance on the issue is stated a number of time in this thread, I am just gonna quote it again to be clear so that people can understand why there is such a big reaction from the community. It is not about Avilo acting like a victim or the hosts being themselves, it is more about the personality and attitude shown by the hosts. + Show Spoiler +On June 30 2012 12:35 Roarer wrote:First off, I would like to say labelling other's opinion as irrational complain without examining the details is the worst way to interpret feedback. As Incontrol said in the past, the whole thing is a learning experience and feedback is one way to speed up the learning process. There are crazy stupid replies that does not worth addressing but there are also worthy points burried in this thread. People reply cuz they care, and pepole express their discontent because they are honest and vocal. To calm down the atmosphere, I will start replying to Nony's respectful post. Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 06:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I don't think avilo had anything unique to contribute to the discussion. It's his mistake for wanting to come on the show without any good reason to come on the show. He either thought what he had to say was unique and compelling OR he felt his authority was great enough that there's value behind him in particular putting his weight behind common arguments and observations. It wasn't so bad for the show before the latest show, when he originally wanted to come on, but following the qxc/idra discussion was very bad.
SC2 strategy discussions, and balance discussions in general, often happen without anything original being said. There are few units and viable builds in the game. There are few viable styles and broad strategical "moves" which are all defined by different distributions of investments (between army, economy, tech, upgrades, static defense, etc). These broad things are few but their applications are so vast that discussions quickly go beyond anyone's knowledge.
What players typically try to do with their investment distributions is find out the "sweet spot" investment for that moment in that particular game. For example, IdrA claims that there is a sweet spot investment in army that a terran player can do after going 3 CC. This sweet spot puts significant pressure on the zerg. Upping that investment, say 50%, from 2000 resources to 3000 resources, might yield very little benefit, and also makes it impossible to precede it with 3 CC, which makes it a dead-end build.
When a patch comes that significantly changes a matchup, what is usually happening is most of the known sweet spots are no longer so sweet. That's IdrA saying that the old builds don't work. What are the new sweet spots? Well, no one knows for sure or else the discussion wouldn't be happening. So the discussion can't really have a definitive end. You can only have a player from each perspective point vaguely in a direction and agree that some hope exists.
The queen and overlord changes are almost exclusively affecting sweet spots. That is, when IdrA said Stephano using queens offensively was an anomaly, that's the point he's making. This patch didn't change a unit that was core to some army composition. Such a change would change the scope of the discussion because timings would no longer be the main issue (ghost snipe change).
Idra and qxc fleshed out the issues so that anyone who didn't know what the hell was going on with TvZ atm would know. And then they did their best to use all the specific knowledge of the matchup they have, both the outdated pre-patch knowledge and the post-patch fallout, to figure out which alternatives look most promising.
Someone saying that all other options amount to nothing and that the game is fundamentally broken is not helpful. As experienced players, we know for a fact that not all options have been properly attempted. What we know is that one option that terrans were comfortable with and zergs were uncomfortable with is now no longer possible. A player from the race that just got nerfed does not have something interesting to say if whatever they're saying is negative. It's just not possible to have comprehensively proven that there's no hope. The nerfed race is interesting when they say they've figured out a new sweet spot that is looking good.
As soon as Avilo took a negative view for terran, he was setting himself up to be either completely uninteresting and unoriginal or completely ridiculous. QXC knew this fact for himself and poked fun at the situation SOTG was trying to put him in by asking something like "oh so you want me to assume it's imbalanced and defend that?" Avilo asked to be put into that position and proceeded headlong with an errant tact. Most players with more knowledge and experience would refuse to go into the same situation. They certainly wouldn't ask for it.
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As for the way JP, Geoff and Greg behaved, there's really no defending it either. There's certainly plenty of explaining it. It was nowhere near as bad as some people paint it. Context and history also soften the picture for people who saw only this one incident. But it still wasn't the kind of behavior I'd want to see on a show and not the kind of show that I want to be a part of.
When JP and Geoff said it was happening, I just took a back seat because there have been many things that they do that turn out to be awesome and popular which I wouldn't have done. Now some of those things have gone so bad that I think we'll have to be more careful. I didn't know how this would go. There was a chance it could have been awesome and I don't like preventing things that might turn out awesome just because some sensitive people might be outraged over cringing for two minutes one time.
But it's also our (unpaid) job to bring you awesome, all the damn time. So what bothers me isn't so much that Avilo had a bad time (I'm not responsible for him) but rather that SOTG presented a shitty segment. It's a difficulty of a live show. To quote Geoff, this was a learning experience. We've got to get better. Next time we'll be better. (Unless we suck next time too, and then that'll also be a learning experience, and we'll be better the time after that, trust me.) Since Avilo did not bring up much great points, I would just use the QXC Idra discussion as my example here. The balance discussion took place, IMO have very little value in itself because both the Terran and Zerg side statements are based on subjective feelings and belief. Using the "sweet sopt" analogy, the 2 players are actually arguing about if they feel the Terran options are sweet / sweet enough. It is the most obvious when Idra proposed the 3CC greedy builds and QXC just gave out his experience doing so. It is a known fact that the Zerg has the strongest economy, and QXC just said the situation is already out of control when he moved out. Is it truly out of control? Both of them cannot find any means to justify their stance. Why don't they just throw out objective information such as time needed for the Zerg to saturate three base if both race go completely passive? Information such as the resource Zerg mined when the Terran move out with a standard push after 3CC. Information like these can help justify if the suggested build is viable and allow players to better judge the situation. Of course, it is different from a real game (just like science experiments are different from reality) but it can help point out if the direction is correct. Players can then modify the estimation by squeezing in harassment and the zerg investment needed to hold them off. A discussion based on objective facts is way more fruitful than Idra saying "you can!" with QXC replying "I can't!". Even if facts cannot be provided, pass games can be used as examples. Just point to old VODs and replays. They are less convinvving but they help a bit. Do you think players are actually ill-prepared to engage in a fruitful balance discussion ? Do you think players are lacking in backing up points with facts? You can hardly persuade people with biased mindset without hard solid fact. To me, the balance discussion is more of a rant and a deny of rant. Both are just expressing how they feel instead of further understanding the match up from each other point of view. Is this what SotG should do ? I do not think so. It's just like Artosis telling Incontrol how will he smash Protoss with the Zerg HotS units.(I like Artosis's statements, but it is just not a discussion at all) It is not a discussion at all here either. Its more of 2 people writing their own respective blog, and smashing them together in one place. Is it too much to ask pros to provide these facts? I thought they work on the game and at least know the timings and resources. Is it healthy for StoG to continue to have this sort of discussion ? Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 01:42 iNcontroL wrote:
rabble rabble rabble ! ! ! !
I can't believe IdrA said stfu to someone! - WHO THE FUCK is shocked by this? SERIOUSLY. If IdrA doesn't like someone it has been shown, time in and time again that he will tell them exactly what he thinks. Avilo has EARNED his position in the community. 99% of the people bitching are looking in on something they have no clue about.. they see IdrA an etablished pro not being decent to Avilo a scumbag whiner who constantly attacks us every chance he can get.. it just so turns out nobody gives a damn because they were trained to ignore him by his constant balance whining.
Oh my god, iNcontroL is a bully because he was snickering during the interview and he makes fun of avilo! -- HELLO, I fucking mock EVERYONE. That very show I teased khaldor and wolf. Is there anyone I haven't mocked or teased? Does that make me a bully? Only if you are insecure or uninformed I guess. I mock friends AND I mock shit heads. Avilo happens to be a shit head. He is a broken record on balance AND he is a broken record on his insecurity with who is talking about him.. if that makes me a bully FINE. I guess that is the case. I fucking tried to hand that kid an olive branch and promoted his stream but he turns around and goes ape shit in this very thread one week ago naming me over and over as someone who failed in WCS which meant he was better etc etc.. I don't give a fuck if you guys don't understand my teasing and mocking of him but if you don't care to TRY to understand then wtf?
JP cut him off without letting him finish? Oh the horror! -- He was at that time incoherently babbling over IdrA about how he "agreed with greg" and kept twisting what greg was saying around as if it was a point in favor of terran. The argument was neither entertaining nor was it informative.. it was a guy hopping on the show after starting a shit storm the week before, first thing he asks about is me teasing him or taking "pot shots" and then he goes on to interrupt idra, take his words and twist them and speak over everyone else.. greg lost his cool and JP controlled that shit. Should he have barked over Avilo "thanks for coming on" and then hung up on him? I guess in some wierd internet way that would be less impolite.. ok.
We called it. We said this was Mia Rose all over again. A terrible idea amidst an otherwise fine show. So that is on us. But I got to be honest with you: Fuck a lot of you. Fuck you forever. Get all up in arms about Avilo and start trashing IdrA, JP and myself. Asking for us to quit the show and leave SC2. This show isn't earning me or IdrA money. And lately, it has been really fucking annoying actually. We aren't allowed to make mistakes when we discuss shit. We have to give context for everything we say to be careful that some uppity 30 post prick who has been around for 6 months won't run off and try to create drama.
This shit WILL blow over because at the end of the day there is no grabby sound bite.. there is no image of greg double birding the screen in a fit of rage. There is a bunch of insecure asshats interpreting things as bad as they possibly can with 0 context for why Avilo was spoken to that way. It just sickens me how completely tunnel visioned a lot of this community is.. you WANT to get people fired you WANT to make people break and snap.. great.
Well enjoy your 2.3 days of drama. After this avilo will go on to shit on everyone he talks to that doesn't agree with him. He will continue to play the martyr for as long as the community will give him that attention. We are going to keep doing the show because most of you deserve it and we will continue to make the same kind of jokes and from time to time make mistakes by allowing people on the show that don't deserve it and bring out the worst in people. People are discontent with the attitude and personality shown in this episode. They are trying to tell you guys that behavior like that is not welcomed. It is not people never expect Idra to be emotional. It is more of people want the hosts to behave professional and be a better representative of the community, its the same thing as Incontrol asking Destiny to eliminate sensitive words from Destiny's own stream. Destiny did not ask to represent the community but he was one of the representative. SotG is also another representative. People is clear this time, the behavior showed is not what they want, they do not want such behavior to be spread in the community. Idra being the bad boy all the time does not make Idra being the bad boy in the future justifiable. Fans of the show does not want his personality overshadow the atmosphere on the show. It is a clear feedback that people want a more reserve situation than potentially blowing everything up because of personality. It is the same when people complain about Incontrol's behavior. Incontrol mock others all the time but that does not mean he should do so in the future. I hope people still remeber Incontrol making fun of TLO's English accent and TLO got offended and refuse to come on the show. The mocking hurt the image of the show, it also hurt the show directly cause they lose a potential great guest. It is part of Incontrol's personality, but it is not welcomed. The whole Incontrol post I am quoting here show how the feedback is misunderstood. What Incontrol is telling us is nothing more than having an Avilo's fan(if there is any) to tell Idra that Idra should not be mad because everyone knows Avilo behaved that way all the time. Are you serious? Moerover, history in the past do not justify these behavior. If people are granted the right to offend others just because they are offended in the past, when will the cycle ends? I felt offended and I response by offending you, and you felt offended and offend me, and the whole cycle will just permit everyone to get mad and offend everyone. There is no way to draw the line when does the offensive words start either cuz people can be offended in a way you never anticipated. People having huge ego can get offended easily. People have unique past that we never know. The whole idea of revenging offensive behavior by offensive behavior is simply wrong. I am not gonna address Avilo's behvior here cause I do not care about him at all and I see no future in him representing this community. He got enough attention by being himself and he does not deserve more! Not to be mean but I don't think anyone here cares enough to read your essay, might want to shorten it a bit or write a blog or something
It's not mean, it's just true. lol.
Regardless I watched the clip (I've never watched even a single segment of SOTG so I wasn't even sure exactly what it was), but really all I saw was Avilo speaking about TvZ lategame from his perspective, which was fine, but then when IdrA went to speak, he interrupted him. And then he kept interrupting him. Maybe a "let me finish" or "shut up" instead of "shut the fuck up" would have been better from IdrA, but honestly, it's IdrA, that's nothing to be overly offended by. Really this doesn't seem to be like a huge deal, Avilo wouldn't shut up when he was supposed to and consequently got hung up on...
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Wow people are still getting all serious business about this...seriously? The "mistakes" are simple: first is having idra on the show, second is having this person avilo on the show. And then an apology from JP to...grack? lol K. I'd never heard of avilo before this show so I did a little research, and he's a nobody, not in a negative way but literally as far as the community goes he's brought nothing to it, just yet another ladder troll, and them be dime a dozen.
The TRUE beauty of this little piece of entertainment was that it somehow victimized this person in the eyes of (some of) the community. There are no victims here, stop trying to portray it like incontrol held him down while idra shanked him. This is easily the greatest few days of avilo's life, as he has enjoyed the attention he clearly seeks.
The best point made in any of this flurry of posting is that the balance of the show is heavily tilted in a stale direction without Day9 and Artosis. With them it was this legitimate, insightful, entertaining mix of awesomeness. With idra and incontrol being the only vocal hosts it's a bizarro version of Inside the Game, except Wheat has a strong personality of his own that keeps the show centered. And before anybody gets all sensitive, no I'm not blaming JP for Artosis and Day9 not being on the show. It's a passion project and if it's not their passion then that's not his fault.
Obviously we're all going to keep tuning in because it's free entertainment, but the golden age of SOTG may sadly be behind us. It is what it is 
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On July 02 2012 02:34 Undrass wrote:
This show has definitely gone downhill. All about the drama, zero about the game. It's almost as if incontrol and JP brought avilo on, just because they wanted more drama.
Well, they pretty much admit on the show that's the only reason they brought him on, and it didn't take them long to realize how fucking stupid an idea that was.
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On July 01 2012 14:06 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 13:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 01 2012 13:18 Duravi wrote:On July 01 2012 13:12 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
There's an entire context behind what happened that you're completely neglecting. Things don't happen in a vacuum.
The entire reason this episode happened is people like you. People who talk about SotG being disgusting, and how bad it is now, and how unfair it is to have TvX discussions without their preferred Terran player on the show, and every other little complaint under the sun constantly throwing them at Geoff, and JP, and Tyler, and everyone else associated with the show. People in this thread whined for a solid week about the lack of qxc, and they whined about avilo not being given an invitation, and they weren't exactly showing any signs of shutting up. So there's a show that HAS qxc, and it's entirely about TvZ, because everyone was all mad about the previous show's treatment of the matchup, and it's even got avilo because he's been posting daily issuing callouts and challenges and generally strutting around while a whole group encouraged him. You know what this is like? You're getting upset because a drunk guy got into a car crash, but where were you the night before? You were sitting next to his wasted ass, begging him to drive you to Taco-Bell. The community instigated this. It's not JP deciding to create a shitshow for fun, or, if it was, it was a completely different joke. On some level, what he and Geoff were saying with that whole episode was "you people are fucking stupid. Back the hell off." And they're absolutely right. I'm one of the people who specifically said it would be dumb to bring on a terran who wasn't an entertaining personality because that is the primary purpose of the show; to entertain. That said, the people on SotG are responsible for their own content. So it's reddits fault they acted like immature bullies? So they needed to shit all over avilo to prove the community is stupid? Do you know how dumb that sounds? The only people who came across as immature and moronic were the people on the show. People are responsible for how they behave, you can't blame the community. Yes, you can. I appreciate that there were people in the community posting reasonable opinions. But there was a lot of: Well, no one is surprised that the Terran-less SotG is unsympathetic to terran. I get that they've got grievances, but a full third of their viewership is getting tired of it, since it happens every single time. It gets old. Totally disgusted with this terran-less talk again Calling you out SOTG, I'm willing to join in the skype chat to discuss from a Terran perspective the "state of the game." Otherwise, find another Terran willing to discuss actual balance/state of the game issues, you don't seem to really be having a balanced discussion at all. Whelp, it's disgusting to see this show has turned into a giant protoss and zerg circle jerk. Even inside the game is a better show now, and that is with the show having painuser on it. I just don't understand why we can't get a consistent terran on the show. I really wanted to hear their thoughts on the current state of TvZ but it was completely pushed aside. I made a post on reddit but it got downvoted into oblivion when all I was asking for was DISCUSSION. That's what this show is about. But there's no discussion from a terran perspective. As a struggling terran, it's frustrating to listen to what they had to say on the issue. I don't understand why a discussion is too much to ask for. I mean, read the first sentence of that last one. He's wondering why 'we' - as if he's part of the SotG crew - can't get a Terran as a host. It's not, "JP, I feel like having a Terran perspective would be a good addition to the show"; it's "why can't we get a Terran?" That's the kind of a question you ask your parents when you want them to buy you new Legos and they say no. That's on page 2300-2305, roughly. Two people saying they're disgusted with the lack of Terrans. That went on for another hundred pages. A hundred pages of people wanting and wanting and wanting and then they didn't like what they got. Sorry but you can't blame peer pressure for your actions. What you do is your responsibility.
I see where you're coming from, but I think you're making a mistake. You're saying the hosts can't blame peer pressure, but we aren't their peers. We're consumers of a product. There's a big difference there. If your consumers don't like your product, you change the product to give them what they want.
In this case, once they got what they wanted, they didn't like it.
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Are the mp3's for the old Sotg episodes working for everyone? I was trying to watch Ep 12 and 24 and it wasn't working for me.
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On July 02 2012 05:37 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 14:06 Duravi wrote:On July 01 2012 13:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 01 2012 13:18 Duravi wrote:On July 01 2012 13:12 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
There's an entire context behind what happened that you're completely neglecting. Things don't happen in a vacuum.
The entire reason this episode happened is people like you. People who talk about SotG being disgusting, and how bad it is now, and how unfair it is to have TvX discussions without their preferred Terran player on the show, and every other little complaint under the sun constantly throwing them at Geoff, and JP, and Tyler, and everyone else associated with the show. People in this thread whined for a solid week about the lack of qxc, and they whined about avilo not being given an invitation, and they weren't exactly showing any signs of shutting up. So there's a show that HAS qxc, and it's entirely about TvZ, because everyone was all mad about the previous show's treatment of the matchup, and it's even got avilo because he's been posting daily issuing callouts and challenges and generally strutting around while a whole group encouraged him. You know what this is like? You're getting upset because a drunk guy got into a car crash, but where were you the night before? You were sitting next to his wasted ass, begging him to drive you to Taco-Bell. The community instigated this. It's not JP deciding to create a shitshow for fun, or, if it was, it was a completely different joke. On some level, what he and Geoff were saying with that whole episode was "you people are fucking stupid. Back the hell off." And they're absolutely right. I'm one of the people who specifically said it would be dumb to bring on a terran who wasn't an entertaining personality because that is the primary purpose of the show; to entertain. That said, the people on SotG are responsible for their own content. So it's reddits fault they acted like immature bullies? So they needed to shit all over avilo to prove the community is stupid? Do you know how dumb that sounds? The only people who came across as immature and moronic were the people on the show. People are responsible for how they behave, you can't blame the community. Yes, you can. I appreciate that there were people in the community posting reasonable opinions. But there was a lot of: Well, no one is surprised that the Terran-less SotG is unsympathetic to terran. I get that they've got grievances, but a full third of their viewership is getting tired of it, since it happens every single time. It gets old. Totally disgusted with this terran-less talk again Calling you out SOTG, I'm willing to join in the skype chat to discuss from a Terran perspective the "state of the game." Otherwise, find another Terran willing to discuss actual balance/state of the game issues, you don't seem to really be having a balanced discussion at all. Whelp, it's disgusting to see this show has turned into a giant protoss and zerg circle jerk. Even inside the game is a better show now, and that is with the show having painuser on it. I just don't understand why we can't get a consistent terran on the show. I really wanted to hear their thoughts on the current state of TvZ but it was completely pushed aside. I made a post on reddit but it got downvoted into oblivion when all I was asking for was DISCUSSION. That's what this show is about. But there's no discussion from a terran perspective. As a struggling terran, it's frustrating to listen to what they had to say on the issue. I don't understand why a discussion is too much to ask for. I mean, read the first sentence of that last one. He's wondering why 'we' - as if he's part of the SotG crew - can't get a Terran as a host. It's not, "JP, I feel like having a Terran perspective would be a good addition to the show"; it's "why can't we get a Terran?" That's the kind of a question you ask your parents when you want them to buy you new Legos and they say no. That's on page 2300-2305, roughly. Two people saying they're disgusted with the lack of Terrans. That went on for another hundred pages. A hundred pages of people wanting and wanting and wanting and then they didn't like what they got. Sorry but you can't blame peer pressure for your actions. What you do is your responsibility. I see where you're coming from, but I think you're making a mistake. You're saying the hosts can't blame peer pressure, but we aren't their peers. We're consumers of a product. There's a big difference there. If your consumers don't like your product, you change the product to give them what they want. In this case, once they got what they wanted, they didn't like it.
Is this the argument that Incontrol used after Avilo was Fox News'ed off the call? To say that, well you asked for this chat, see what happens. It's your own fault.
Ofcourse what most of the community has asked for for a long time is to have a terran point of view in discussions around strategy, balance etc. If you take that and then you throw in Avilo of all people for 3 minutes to stir up a heated fight with IdrA and then you drop him and you say well, see this is what you asked for, that is just a mockery of the entire community.
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On July 02 2012 06:08 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 05:37 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 01 2012 14:06 Duravi wrote:On July 01 2012 13:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 01 2012 13:18 Duravi wrote:On July 01 2012 13:12 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
There's an entire context behind what happened that you're completely neglecting. Things don't happen in a vacuum.
The entire reason this episode happened is people like you. People who talk about SotG being disgusting, and how bad it is now, and how unfair it is to have TvX discussions without their preferred Terran player on the show, and every other little complaint under the sun constantly throwing them at Geoff, and JP, and Tyler, and everyone else associated with the show. People in this thread whined for a solid week about the lack of qxc, and they whined about avilo not being given an invitation, and they weren't exactly showing any signs of shutting up. So there's a show that HAS qxc, and it's entirely about TvZ, because everyone was all mad about the previous show's treatment of the matchup, and it's even got avilo because he's been posting daily issuing callouts and challenges and generally strutting around while a whole group encouraged him. You know what this is like? You're getting upset because a drunk guy got into a car crash, but where were you the night before? You were sitting next to his wasted ass, begging him to drive you to Taco-Bell. The community instigated this. It's not JP deciding to create a shitshow for fun, or, if it was, it was a completely different joke. On some level, what he and Geoff were saying with that whole episode was "you people are fucking stupid. Back the hell off." And they're absolutely right. I'm one of the people who specifically said it would be dumb to bring on a terran who wasn't an entertaining personality because that is the primary purpose of the show; to entertain. That said, the people on SotG are responsible for their own content. So it's reddits fault they acted like immature bullies? So they needed to shit all over avilo to prove the community is stupid? Do you know how dumb that sounds? The only people who came across as immature and moronic were the people on the show. People are responsible for how they behave, you can't blame the community. Yes, you can. I appreciate that there were people in the community posting reasonable opinions. But there was a lot of: Well, no one is surprised that the Terran-less SotG is unsympathetic to terran. I get that they've got grievances, but a full third of their viewership is getting tired of it, since it happens every single time. It gets old. Totally disgusted with this terran-less talk again Calling you out SOTG, I'm willing to join in the skype chat to discuss from a Terran perspective the "state of the game." Otherwise, find another Terran willing to discuss actual balance/state of the game issues, you don't seem to really be having a balanced discussion at all. Whelp, it's disgusting to see this show has turned into a giant protoss and zerg circle jerk. Even inside the game is a better show now, and that is with the show having painuser on it. I just don't understand why we can't get a consistent terran on the show. I really wanted to hear their thoughts on the current state of TvZ but it was completely pushed aside. I made a post on reddit but it got downvoted into oblivion when all I was asking for was DISCUSSION. That's what this show is about. But there's no discussion from a terran perspective. As a struggling terran, it's frustrating to listen to what they had to say on the issue. I don't understand why a discussion is too much to ask for. I mean, read the first sentence of that last one. He's wondering why 'we' - as if he's part of the SotG crew - can't get a Terran as a host. It's not, "JP, I feel like having a Terran perspective would be a good addition to the show"; it's "why can't we get a Terran?" That's the kind of a question you ask your parents when you want them to buy you new Legos and they say no. That's on page 2300-2305, roughly. Two people saying they're disgusted with the lack of Terrans. That went on for another hundred pages. A hundred pages of people wanting and wanting and wanting and then they didn't like what they got. Sorry but you can't blame peer pressure for your actions. What you do is your responsibility. I see where you're coming from, but I think you're making a mistake. You're saying the hosts can't blame peer pressure, but we aren't their peers. We're consumers of a product. There's a big difference there. If your consumers don't like your product, you change the product to give them what they want. In this case, once they got what they wanted, they didn't like it. Is this the argument that Incontrol used after Avilo was Fox News'ed off the call? To say that, well you asked for this chat, see what happens. It's your own fault. Ofcourse what most of the community has asked for for a long time is to have a terran point of view in discussions around strategy, balance etc. If you take that and then you throw in Avilo of all people for 3 minutes to stir up a heated fight with IdrA and then you drop him and you say well, see this is what you asked for, that is just a mockery of the entire community.
Did you even watch the show? You seem to have missed the hour long discussion about Terrans and balance with QXC. The community got exactly what they asked for.
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On July 02 2012 06:15 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 06:08 VanGarde wrote:On July 02 2012 05:37 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 01 2012 14:06 Duravi wrote:On July 01 2012 13:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 01 2012 13:18 Duravi wrote:On July 01 2012 13:12 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
There's an entire context behind what happened that you're completely neglecting. Things don't happen in a vacuum.
The entire reason this episode happened is people like you. People who talk about SotG being disgusting, and how bad it is now, and how unfair it is to have TvX discussions without their preferred Terran player on the show, and every other little complaint under the sun constantly throwing them at Geoff, and JP, and Tyler, and everyone else associated with the show. People in this thread whined for a solid week about the lack of qxc, and they whined about avilo not being given an invitation, and they weren't exactly showing any signs of shutting up. So there's a show that HAS qxc, and it's entirely about TvZ, because everyone was all mad about the previous show's treatment of the matchup, and it's even got avilo because he's been posting daily issuing callouts and challenges and generally strutting around while a whole group encouraged him. You know what this is like? You're getting upset because a drunk guy got into a car crash, but where were you the night before? You were sitting next to his wasted ass, begging him to drive you to Taco-Bell. The community instigated this. It's not JP deciding to create a shitshow for fun, or, if it was, it was a completely different joke. On some level, what he and Geoff were saying with that whole episode was "you people are fucking stupid. Back the hell off." And they're absolutely right. I'm one of the people who specifically said it would be dumb to bring on a terran who wasn't an entertaining personality because that is the primary purpose of the show; to entertain. That said, the people on SotG are responsible for their own content. So it's reddits fault they acted like immature bullies? So they needed to shit all over avilo to prove the community is stupid? Do you know how dumb that sounds? The only people who came across as immature and moronic were the people on the show. People are responsible for how they behave, you can't blame the community. Yes, you can. I appreciate that there were people in the community posting reasonable opinions. But there was a lot of: Well, no one is surprised that the Terran-less SotG is unsympathetic to terran. I get that they've got grievances, but a full third of their viewership is getting tired of it, since it happens every single time. It gets old. Totally disgusted with this terran-less talk again Calling you out SOTG, I'm willing to join in the skype chat to discuss from a Terran perspective the "state of the game." Otherwise, find another Terran willing to discuss actual balance/state of the game issues, you don't seem to really be having a balanced discussion at all. Whelp, it's disgusting to see this show has turned into a giant protoss and zerg circle jerk. Even inside the game is a better show now, and that is with the show having painuser on it. I just don't understand why we can't get a consistent terran on the show. I really wanted to hear their thoughts on the current state of TvZ but it was completely pushed aside. I made a post on reddit but it got downvoted into oblivion when all I was asking for was DISCUSSION. That's what this show is about. But there's no discussion from a terran perspective. As a struggling terran, it's frustrating to listen to what they had to say on the issue. I don't understand why a discussion is too much to ask for. I mean, read the first sentence of that last one. He's wondering why 'we' - as if he's part of the SotG crew - can't get a Terran as a host. It's not, "JP, I feel like having a Terran perspective would be a good addition to the show"; it's "why can't we get a Terran?" That's the kind of a question you ask your parents when you want them to buy you new Legos and they say no. That's on page 2300-2305, roughly. Two people saying they're disgusted with the lack of Terrans. That went on for another hundred pages. A hundred pages of people wanting and wanting and wanting and then they didn't like what they got. Sorry but you can't blame peer pressure for your actions. What you do is your responsibility. I see where you're coming from, but I think you're making a mistake. You're saying the hosts can't blame peer pressure, but we aren't their peers. We're consumers of a product. There's a big difference there. If your consumers don't like your product, you change the product to give them what they want. In this case, once they got what they wanted, they didn't like it. Is this the argument that Incontrol used after Avilo was Fox News'ed off the call? To say that, well you asked for this chat, see what happens. It's your own fault. Ofcourse what most of the community has asked for for a long time is to have a terran point of view in discussions around strategy, balance etc. If you take that and then you throw in Avilo of all people for 3 minutes to stir up a heated fight with IdrA and then you drop him and you say well, see this is what you asked for, that is just a mockery of the entire community. Did you even watch the show? You seem to have missed the hour long discussion about Terrans and balance with QXC. The community got exactly what they asked for.
Yes? I was not talking about that at all. You are correct that bringing QXC on is what most people wanted and it was a great move!
I was talking about how the entire Avilo farse is also being played off as a part of that "bringing in the terran view as the community wanted".
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The two are separate things. Reasoned Terran discussion with qxc, Demuslim, Illusion or another recognized pro, and drama-llamas between avilo and hosts. Both were desired and both were delivered.
Edit: as for whether or not someone involved with the show as has this was their motivation, I don't know. I'm going entirely off my own interpretation.
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On July 02 2012 06:55 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
The two are separate things. Reasoned Terran discussion with qxc, Demuslim, Illusion or another recognized pro, and drama-llamas between avilo and hosts. Both were desired and both were delivered.
Edit: as for whether or not someone involved with the show as has this was their motivation, I don't know. I'm going entirely off my own interpretation.
Avilo drama was desired by Incontrol and JP, otherwise he would not had been on there. Fine, but then don't pass it off as if it was the sotg community that wanted that and no, it is not enough to then in retrospect blame it on the random trolls in the chat who probably were crying out for that drama bomb. These trolls make demands all the time for all kinds of outrageous shit and they are rightfully ignored.
It is all kind of irrelevant when you consider that IdrA is perhaps the biggest drama queen on balance and is on every sotg so for them to have people on who make outrageous claims or can't conduct themselves in a civil conversation, that I am used to. But then actually moderate it fairly and don't do the Fox news style elementary school bullying. You can't bring Avilo on and start a drama war, have both him and IdrA act as idiots and then cut Avilo from the call and apologize to IdrA.
I still maintain that IdrA and Incontrol are on the show doing what they are supposed to do, they did not sign a contract to behave in a certain way even though Incontrol likes to talk about how public figures in the community should conduct themselves, at least he does so in between taking cheap shots at people who are not on the show. But that is a different issue. The point is that it is the moderation of the show where it falls apart. IdrA is always going to be IdrA and he is on the show to be himself. But JP as the host really needs to take a more professional role as a moderator on the show, and I am saying this with all good intentions, I love JP and I watch his stream all the time, he's obviously a nice guy but he is not doing his job as the host imo. It is not enough to just throw the subjects of discussion out there you have to step in when things get out of hand while also keeping it balanced and unbiased, and you have to play the devil's advocate when one side is not represented in something. Far to often he sits back and takes on the role of a spectator of the show. I just can't help but feel that bringing on a person who would obviously cause drama, have him and IdrA just go at one another without directing the questioning, then cutting one of them from the call and apologizing to the other and then laugh it off and move is not how DjWheat would had handled the same situation.
And I am sure that JP probably realized in retrospect that it was badly handled I mean no one is prepared for every situation in advance and I think he probably learned from the experience.
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On July 02 2012 02:34 Undrass wrote:
This show has definitely gone downhill. All about the drama, zero about the game. It's almost as if incontrol and JP brought avilo on, just because they wanted more drama.
I'm sry but a more than 1 hour long strategie tvz talk never happened before (maybe in the very old sotg's). But yeah, jp is definitly a drama seeking queen
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Ok serious comment here....why the hell does it matter? It's over, let it be alone.
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JP always delivers what the majority of the community wants. At least at the time, I think he is sick good at doing just that. Really loved the IdrA/QxC discussion. As for the whole avilo fiasco, I think JP brought him on beacuse eeeveryone was begging him to do so at the time. I didnt watch it live but I got the feeling that there was a lot of preassure on JP to get avilo on especially from the streamchat.
Im pretty sure JP is already used to receive the shit that he gets all the time. Cut him some slack. He made a mistake, OK, by now I'm pretty sure he is quite aware of it. At the end of the day he is one of few community members, who strive to put up talk shows/interviews persistantly. Every now and then your gonna fuck up, but thats life.
I was quite tired when I wrote this so the text is kinda retarded:d
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Great episode. The first hour was one of the better extended strategy discussions I've heard on the show. The segment was Avilo was hilarious. Keep it up!
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Hi everyone. I'm back. Hope you didn't miss me.
During my unplanned time-off I decided that I am going to contact EG's sponsors. I expect apathy from them, ridicule from EG, and scorn from the "Don't kill eSports" crowd. So be it.
IdrA and iNcontroL have shown an unrepentant attitude of disrespect toward all but a handful and SirScoots is okay with this. While this is nothing new, it has reached a point where I am no longer interested in them or their events and that is something sponsors should know.
Don't worry anyone. I'm just one guy and I will recommend to the sponsors that they continue with eSports but that they should and can find better teams and players to support. And don't worry EG fans, even if all the sponsors were to leave the team, I am certain they will continue just fine from shirt sales and stream revenues.
I didn't watch IdrA's stream much since he never seemed to commentate or interact with viewers and there was often something wrong with his audio that made all the songs he played sound like a broken washing machine but iNcontroL had been moving up my list. Hard to hate a stream that plays songs by In Flames, even if it tended to be the new stuff.
Whatever. They won't miss me and I won't miss them and I don't expect my letters to their sponsors to have any effect at all. In fact, I encourage EG to print this post, frame it, put it on the wall, and drink a toast to me every time they get a new sponsor.
Still, I'm surprised and disappointed that for all the "let's build eSports" talk I've heard from iNcontroL, he, unlike Sundance, doesn't get it. He says the last two SotG episodes were bad but it doesn't look like he understands why people are complaining. You got a lot of growing up to do, buddy.
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On July 02 2012 08:06 dvorakftw wrote:
Hi everyone. I'm back. Hope you didn't miss me.
During my unplanned time-off I decided that I am going to contact EG's sponsors. I expect apathy from them, ridicule from EG, and scorn from the "Don't kill eSports" crowd. So be it.
IdrA and iNcontroL have shown an unrepentant attitude of disrespect toward all but a handful and SirScoots is okay with this. While this is nothing new, it has reached a point where I am no longer interested in them or their events and that is something sponsors should know.
Don't worry anyone. I'm just one guy and I will recommend to the sponsors that they continue with eSports but that they should and can find better teams and players to support. And don't worry EG fans, even if all the sponsors were to leave the team, I am certain they will continue just fine from shirt sales and stream revenues.
I didn't watch IdrA's stream much since he never seemed to commentate or interact with viewers and there was often something wrong with his audio that made all the songs he played sound like a broken washing machine but iNcontroL had been moving up my list. Hard to hate a stream that plays songs by In Flames, even if it tended to be the new stuff.
Whatever. They won't miss me and I won't miss them and I don't expect my letters to their sponsors to have any effect at all. In fact, I encourage EG to print this post, frame it, put it on the wall, and drink a toast to me every time they get a new sponsor.
Still, I'm surprised and disappointed that for all the "let's build eSports" talk I've heard from iNcontroL, he, unlike Sundance, doesn't get it. He says the last two SotG episodes were bad but it doesn't look like he understands why people are complaining. You got a lot of growing up to do, buddy.
lol, so mad.
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On July 02 2012 03:53 FabledIntegral wrote:
Regardless I watched the clip (I've never watched even a single segment of SOTG so I wasn't even sure exactly what it was), but really all I saw was Avilo speaking about TvZ lategame from his perspective, which was fine, but then when IdrA went to speak, he interrupted him. .
Weird, you seemed to have missed all the times avilo was interrupted.
And can we skip the follow-up "But then avilo twisted IdrA's words!!!111" whinge?
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EPT
