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On July 01 2012 18:44 WhalesFromSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 17:48 jmbthirteen wrote:just gonna leave this here: avilo complained throughout the entire game last game vs fitzy and then went afk before the game was over, tvz imbalanced. his upgrades? 0-0 Yeah that was the finals of my tournament (Space Whales Showdown). I think a lot of people said it was a great game but avilo needed air upgrades and ended up using his gas bank on other things. I feel that Fitzy did a lot of things to distract him, but I think that avilo would have had a chance with upgraded air units. TvZ is hard but in any matchup 2/3 vs 0/0 is not going to work out.
Dude, that game was lost. Avilo had 200 gas and Fitzy had a bank of 14k minerals and 5k gas ( or maybe a little less but still it was a huge bank ). Upgrades wouldn't have made a difference because of zerg remax 
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On July 01 2012 18:23 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 17:40 Defacer wrote:
It's called America people. Jesus Fucking Christ.
rofl
Reminds me too much of
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 01 2012 18:53 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 18:23 Talack wrote:On July 01 2012 17:40 Defacer wrote:
It's called America people. Jesus Fucking Christ.
rofl Reminds me too much of + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiLzf72Jtrw
EGGGGGGGGGSSSSACTLY.
lol.
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Idra just came across as a massive wanker. To be fair, this is nothing new. DeMuslim is so much more of a class act and of course they have Thorzain, JYP and Puma but I wish they'd gag him. He doesn't do EG any good with the way he talks sometimes. I don't understand where the superiority complex comes from - he's not all that great a player himself these days.
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On July 01 2012 18:21 Hardigan wrote:
It's times like these where i wish that esport would just die and every butthurt selfproclaimed internethero with it. This discussion.. no..the existence of this discussion just makes me sad.
Come over to dota. If people get offended over there we just try and piss them off more. Nobody cares about shit other then the game and everyone is chill.
P.S. PGG's mantits 
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On June 29 2012 13:14 Denzil wrote:
Just rewatched the debate.
Idra was acting incredibly civil up until the point where he talks about Terran not having the economy to tech switch like Zerg then they will lose if they make the wrong decision where Avilo then buts in to make a point and Idra tells him to shut the fuck up and attempts to continue on.
Avilo then raises his voice and says "Hey hey hey" and Incontrol says didn't you say to Idra let you finish? and then Avilo says he's agreeing with Idra on Zergs having the economy (which was not what Idra was even remotely talking about)
How are you guys making ridiculous conclusions from the same set of events that I just saw there?
Idra then made some more points and then Avilo tried to but in ato which Idra shut him down by calling him fucking bad and then Avilo says he's agreing with Idra again which Idra says he isn't and then Avilo says he is agreeing with idra when he gets cut out
Thats right. I really hope that JP will never ever invite ppl again on behalf of the chat. It was not working with the pornactress and is not working this time. And it doesn't make sense if you think about it. There are so much more interesting discussions - Even in the same episode... The community can be so great but this way of listening to ppl screaming in the chat to bring someone on... ppl in the chat that can be everybody it is totally anonymous only the cast of the show is taking dmg and if you go through the pages here they may have certain failures but you all share time together watching them and discuss for 3XXX pages about the way they behave and stufff when talking about your favorite game. It is a matter of the dynamic and certain mindsets not everyone can ignore certain behavoir I don't know if I would behave much better than Idra.
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I even disagree the invitation of Avilo was a mistake. His conversation with Idra added some more points to the TvZ discussion that qxc and Idra had. And it was ended right when both sides would have started circling around and going nowhere further. It was not meant to have a "winner" or final conclusion (despite the joke "points" score) - it was meant to hear thoughts from T side and from Z side being exchanged. Which effectively happened. It was a successful SotG episode. Thank you, JP, all hosts and guests.
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The whole episode with Avilo is why i dont want this part of starcraft (podcasts /news & discussions etc) to be hijacked my people like JP and Idra and Incontrol to a lesser extent .And lets not forget the episode with JP and TB and the way it was used in the podcast for cheap shots and personal vindication.Ultimately i think it s not good for the scene especially if people like this get a front row seat...
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It was a good show in general. Some of them have a lot of growing up to do and people like Idra and Incontrol need a reality check IMO. The only thing that i can say to them is this: you are not here as "pillars" for your quality or skills as "pros".
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On July 01 2012 21:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:
It was a good show in general. Some of them have a lot of growing up to do and people like Idra and Incontrol need a reality check IMO. The only thing that i can say to them is this: you are not here as "pillars" for your quality or skills as "pros".
Despite the hate that idra gets and being called bad, he does offer some amazing insight into his race and other races and how they could improve. His thoughts on "make more ghosts, they counter everything" was being called stupid/noob for 1-2 months before GSL players started massing ghosts to the point where blizzard nerfed them into uselessness.
His theory on expanding with bio pressure is being shown to be "almost effective" in TvZ right now, maybe with time it'll work out better.
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wow, this is the first vod of this ive seen, what a TOOL idra is. gawd damn school bullying mentality on those ppl.. not watchin the next one.
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Wow people are still going on about this... ffs there is nothing being said that hasn't already been said at this point... move the fuck on people
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W.T.F. How is this complaining still going? This was a minor incident on a show no one is forcing you to watch. Avilo is the one who decided to enter the call, The community is seeming much more hurt than Avilo. There was a time when people didn't immediately type pages and pages on the internet about an insignificant event. This kind of complaining is bringing me back to the time of "THIS IS KILLING E-SPORTS!" and if anyone remembers, that irritating trend did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to advance the "E-sports" these people were advocating.
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I (and I would imagine most others) knew exactly how things would go as soon as Avilo came on... I almost stopped watching before it even happened.
Both Avilo and Idra were more restrained than I thought they would be. A conversation between the two of them will never ever be civil and JP should've known it. It kinda bothered me that incontrol was kind of egging it on.
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I am truly a bit shocked how part of the community react to the negative feedback to the show - labelling feedback as irrational reply / a witch hunt instead of understanding the meaning behind all these feedback. Most people replying to this incident are expressing the bottom line for disrespect behaavior. All these replies in fact shape up what behavior is acceptable and unacceptable in the scene. People complaining / expressing disappiontment are just explaining the basic respect someone deserve. People labelling others feedback as witchhunt, are actually asking people, who have a different opinion, to keep quiet and accept whatever the show give us. Asking others to appreciate what the community is gifted is fine but asking the community to be less vocal is not. It's because that's how the community express itself to people outside of the community. It is a way to signal the current leaders / figure heads what the community want and why. It's like voting for a politic party and giving explanations for how and why the decisions are made that way. It directs the growth of the community and affects how the community as a whole is treated in the eyes of the greater public, the world outside of E-sportz. The community has to keep vocal to show everyone its characteristics and values.
For the show / JP itself, this is nothing more than a lesson. It just shows what is welcomed and what is not. It's like giving the show some idea how much support will SotG receive if the same behavior is continued. It's like voting, # of people think highly of personality of each host vs # of people think highly of respect & professionalism. As far as things go, it seems the votes for the later is greater than votes for the earlier. It clearly indicates if Day9 / tasteless/ Artosis /Apollo start a similar show will have a greater success simply because of their personality and attitude. It gives clear guidiance on what has to be done if JP intends to make SotG the # 1 podcast for SC2.
People have to look at all these feedbacks in another perspective - community's self expression. That way, everyone can gain more from this incident. Right now, the comments are taken way too personal. In fact, it is more like people are disappionted by the hosts attitude & behavior rather than people are disappionted by the hosts themslves. Pointing fingers at each other and dividing the community is never a good thing when we can join together to reach our goal.
My stance on the issue is stated a number of time in this thread, I am just gonna quote it again to be clear so that people can understand why there is such a big reaction from the community. It is not about Avilo acting like a victim or the hosts being themselves, it is more about the personality and attitude shown by the hosts.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 30 2012 12:35 Roarer wrote:First off, I would like to say labelling other's opinion as irrational complain without examining the details is the worst way to interpret feedback. As Incontrol said in the past, the whole thing is a learning experience and feedback is one way to speed up the learning process. There are crazy stupid replies that does not worth addressing but there are also worthy points burried in this thread. People reply cuz they care, and pepole express their discontent because they are honest and vocal. To calm down the atmosphere, I will start replying to Nony's respectful post. Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 06:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I don't think avilo had anything unique to contribute to the discussion. It's his mistake for wanting to come on the show without any good reason to come on the show. He either thought what he had to say was unique and compelling OR he felt his authority was great enough that there's value behind him in particular putting his weight behind common arguments and observations. It wasn't so bad for the show before the latest show, when he originally wanted to come on, but following the qxc/idra discussion was very bad.
SC2 strategy discussions, and balance discussions in general, often happen without anything original being said. There are few units and viable builds in the game. There are few viable styles and broad strategical "moves" which are all defined by different distributions of investments (between army, economy, tech, upgrades, static defense, etc). These broad things are few but their applications are so vast that discussions quickly go beyond anyone's knowledge.
What players typically try to do with their investment distributions is find out the "sweet spot" investment for that moment in that particular game. For example, IdrA claims that there is a sweet spot investment in army that a terran player can do after going 3 CC. This sweet spot puts significant pressure on the zerg. Upping that investment, say 50%, from 2000 resources to 3000 resources, might yield very little benefit, and also makes it impossible to precede it with 3 CC, which makes it a dead-end build.
When a patch comes that significantly changes a matchup, what is usually happening is most of the known sweet spots are no longer so sweet. That's IdrA saying that the old builds don't work. What are the new sweet spots? Well, no one knows for sure or else the discussion wouldn't be happening. So the discussion can't really have a definitive end. You can only have a player from each perspective point vaguely in a direction and agree that some hope exists.
The queen and overlord changes are almost exclusively affecting sweet spots. That is, when IdrA said Stephano using queens offensively was an anomaly, that's the point he's making. This patch didn't change a unit that was core to some army composition. Such a change would change the scope of the discussion because timings would no longer be the main issue (ghost snipe change).
Idra and qxc fleshed out the issues so that anyone who didn't know what the hell was going on with TvZ atm would know. And then they did their best to use all the specific knowledge of the matchup they have, both the outdated pre-patch knowledge and the post-patch fallout, to figure out which alternatives look most promising.
Someone saying that all other options amount to nothing and that the game is fundamentally broken is not helpful. As experienced players, we know for a fact that not all options have been properly attempted. What we know is that one option that terrans were comfortable with and zergs were uncomfortable with is now no longer possible. A player from the race that just got nerfed does not have something interesting to say if whatever they're saying is negative. It's just not possible to have comprehensively proven that there's no hope. The nerfed race is interesting when they say they've figured out a new sweet spot that is looking good.
As soon as Avilo took a negative view for terran, he was setting himself up to be either completely uninteresting and unoriginal or completely ridiculous. QXC knew this fact for himself and poked fun at the situation SOTG was trying to put him in by asking something like "oh so you want me to assume it's imbalanced and defend that?" Avilo asked to be put into that position and proceeded headlong with an errant tact. Most players with more knowledge and experience would refuse to go into the same situation. They certainly wouldn't ask for it.
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As for the way JP, Geoff and Greg behaved, there's really no defending it either. There's certainly plenty of explaining it. It was nowhere near as bad as some people paint it. Context and history also soften the picture for people who saw only this one incident. But it still wasn't the kind of behavior I'd want to see on a show and not the kind of show that I want to be a part of.
When JP and Geoff said it was happening, I just took a back seat because there have been many things that they do that turn out to be awesome and popular which I wouldn't have done. Now some of those things have gone so bad that I think we'll have to be more careful. I didn't know how this would go. There was a chance it could have been awesome and I don't like preventing things that might turn out awesome just because some sensitive people might be outraged over cringing for two minutes one time.
But it's also our (unpaid) job to bring you awesome, all the damn time. So what bothers me isn't so much that Avilo had a bad time (I'm not responsible for him) but rather that SOTG presented a shitty segment. It's a difficulty of a live show. To quote Geoff, this was a learning experience. We've got to get better. Next time we'll be better. (Unless we suck next time too, and then that'll also be a learning experience, and we'll be better the time after that, trust me.) Since Avilo did not bring up much great points, I would just use the QXC Idra discussion as my example here. The balance discussion took place, IMO have very little value in itself because both the Terran and Zerg side statements are based on subjective feelings and belief. Using the "sweet sopt" analogy, the 2 players are actually arguing about if they feel the Terran options are sweet / sweet enough. It is the most obvious when Idra proposed the 3CC greedy builds and QXC just gave out his experience doing so. It is a known fact that the Zerg has the strongest economy, and QXC just said the situation is already out of control when he moved out. Is it truly out of control? Both of them cannot find any means to justify their stance. Why don't they just throw out objective information such as time needed for the Zerg to saturate three base if both race go completely passive? Information such as the resource Zerg mined when the Terran move out with a standard push after 3CC. Information like these can help justify if the suggested build is viable and allow players to better judge the situation. Of course, it is different from a real game (just like science experiments are different from reality) but it can help point out if the direction is correct. Players can then modify the estimation by squeezing in harassment and the zerg investment needed to hold them off. A discussion based on objective facts is way more fruitful than Idra saying "you can!" with QXC replying "I can't!". Even if facts cannot be provided, pass games can be used as examples. Just point to old VODs and replays. They are less convinvving but they help a bit. Do you think players are actually ill-prepared to engage in a fruitful balance discussion ? Do you think players are lacking in backing up points with facts? You can hardly persuade people with biased mindset without hard solid fact. To me, the balance discussion is more of a rant and a deny of rant. Both are just expressing how they feel instead of further understanding the match up from each other point of view. Is this what SotG should do ? I do not think so. It's just like Artosis telling Incontrol how will he smash Protoss with the Zerg HotS units.(I like Artosis's statements, but it is just not a discussion at all) It is not a discussion at all here either. Its more of 2 people writing their own respective blog, and smashing them together in one place. Is it too much to ask pros to provide these facts? I thought they work on the game and at least know the timings and resources. Is it healthy for StoG to continue to have this sort of discussion ? Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 01:42 iNcontroL wrote:
rabble rabble rabble ! ! ! !
I can't believe IdrA said stfu to someone! - WHO THE FUCK is shocked by this? SERIOUSLY. If IdrA doesn't like someone it has been shown, time in and time again that he will tell them exactly what he thinks. Avilo has EARNED his position in the community. 99% of the people bitching are looking in on something they have no clue about.. they see IdrA an etablished pro not being decent to Avilo a scumbag whiner who constantly attacks us every chance he can get.. it just so turns out nobody gives a damn because they were trained to ignore him by his constant balance whining.
Oh my god, iNcontroL is a bully because he was snickering during the interview and he makes fun of avilo! -- HELLO, I fucking mock EVERYONE. That very show I teased khaldor and wolf. Is there anyone I haven't mocked or teased? Does that make me a bully? Only if you are insecure or uninformed I guess. I mock friends AND I mock shit heads. Avilo happens to be a shit head. He is a broken record on balance AND he is a broken record on his insecurity with who is talking about him.. if that makes me a bully FINE. I guess that is the case. I fucking tried to hand that kid an olive branch and promoted his stream but he turns around and goes ape shit in this very thread one week ago naming me over and over as someone who failed in WCS which meant he was better etc etc.. I don't give a fuck if you guys don't understand my teasing and mocking of him but if you don't care to TRY to understand then wtf?
JP cut him off without letting him finish? Oh the horror! -- He was at that time incoherently babbling over IdrA about how he "agreed with greg" and kept twisting what greg was saying around as if it was a point in favor of terran. The argument was neither entertaining nor was it informative.. it was a guy hopping on the show after starting a shit storm the week before, first thing he asks about is me teasing him or taking "pot shots" and then he goes on to interrupt idra, take his words and twist them and speak over everyone else.. greg lost his cool and JP controlled that shit. Should he have barked over Avilo "thanks for coming on" and then hung up on him? I guess in some wierd internet way that would be less impolite.. ok.
We called it. We said this was Mia Rose all over again. A terrible idea amidst an otherwise fine show. So that is on us. But I got to be honest with you: Fuck a lot of you. Fuck you forever. Get all up in arms about Avilo and start trashing IdrA, JP and myself. Asking for us to quit the show and leave SC2. This show isn't earning me or IdrA money. And lately, it has been really fucking annoying actually. We aren't allowed to make mistakes when we discuss shit. We have to give context for everything we say to be careful that some uppity 30 post prick who has been around for 6 months won't run off and try to create drama.
This shit WILL blow over because at the end of the day there is no grabby sound bite.. there is no image of greg double birding the screen in a fit of rage. There is a bunch of insecure asshats interpreting things as bad as they possibly can with 0 context for why Avilo was spoken to that way. It just sickens me how completely tunnel visioned a lot of this community is.. you WANT to get people fired you WANT to make people break and snap.. great.
Well enjoy your 2.3 days of drama. After this avilo will go on to shit on everyone he talks to that doesn't agree with him. He will continue to play the martyr for as long as the community will give him that attention. We are going to keep doing the show because most of you deserve it and we will continue to make the same kind of jokes and from time to time make mistakes by allowing people on the show that don't deserve it and bring out the worst in people. People are discontent with the attitude and personality shown in this episode. They are trying to tell you guys that behavior like that is not welcomed. It is not people never expect Idra to be emotional. It is more of people want the hosts to behave professional and be a better representative of the community, its the same thing as Incontrol asking Destiny to eliminate sensitive words from Destiny's own stream. Destiny did not ask to represent the community but he was one of the representative. SotG is also another representative. People is clear this time, the behavior showed is not what they want, they do not want such behavior to be spread in the community. Idra being the bad boy all the time does not make Idra being the bad boy in the future justifiable. Fans of the show does not want his personality overshadow the atmosphere on the show. It is a clear feedback that people want a more reserve situation than potentially blowing everything up because of personality. It is the same when people complain about Incontrol's behavior. Incontrol mock others all the time but that does not mean he should do so in the future. I hope people still remeber Incontrol making fun of TLO's English accent and TLO got offended and refuse to come on the show. The mocking hurt the image of the show, it also hurt the show directly cause they lose a potential great guest. It is part of Incontrol's personality, but it is not welcomed. The whole Incontrol post I am quoting here show how the feedback is misunderstood. What Incontrol is telling us is nothing more than having an Avilo's fan(if there is any) to tell Idra that Idra should not be mad because everyone knows Avilo behaved that way all the time. Are you serious? Moerover, history in the past do not justify these behavior. If people are granted the right to offend others just because they are offended in the past, when will the cycle ends? I felt offended and I response by offending you, and you felt offended and offend me, and the whole cycle will just permit everyone to get mad and offend everyone. There is no way to draw the line when does the offensive words start either cuz people can be offended in a way you never anticipated. People having huge ego can get offended easily. People have unique past that we never know. The whole idea of revenging offensive behavior by offensive behavior is simply wrong. I am not gonna address Avilo's behvior here cause I do not care about him at all and I see no future in him representing this community. He got enough attention by being himself and he does not deserve more!
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This show has definitely gone downhill. All about the drama, zero about the game. It's almost as if incontrol and JP brought avilo on, just because they wanted more drama.
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On July 02 2012 02:29 Roarer wrote:I am truly a bit shocked how part of the community react to the negative feedback to the show - labelling feedback as irrational reply / a witch hunt instead of understanding the meaning behind all these feedback. Most people replying to this incident are expressing the bottom line for disrespect behaavior. All these replies in fact shape up what behavior is acceptable and unacceptable in the scene. People complaining / expressing disappiontment are just explaining the basic respect someone deserve. People labelling others feedback as witchhunt, are actually asking people, who have a different opinion, to keep quiet and accept whatever the show give us. Asking others to appreciate what the community is gifted is fine but asking the community to be less vocal is not. It's because that's how the community express itself to people outside of the community. It is a way to signal the current leaders / figure heads what the community want and why. It's like voting for a politic party and giving explanations for how and why the decisions are made that way. It directs the growth of the community and affects how the community as a whole is treated in the eyes of the greater public, the world outside of E-sportz. The community has to keep vocal to show everyone its characteristics and values. For the show / JP itself, this is nothing more than a lesson. It just shows what is welcomed and what is not. It's like giving the show some idea how much support will SotG receive if the same behavior is continued. It's like voting, # of people think highly of personality of each host vs # of people think highly of respect & professionalism. As far as things go, it seems the votes for the later is greater than votes for the earlier. It clearly indicates if Day9 / tasteless/ Artosis /Apollo start a similar show will have a greater success simply because of their personality and attitude. It gives clear guidiance on what has to be done if JP intends to make SotG the # 1 podcast for SC2. People have to look at all these feedbacks in another perspective - community's self expression. That way, everyone can gain more from this incident. Right now, the comments are taken way too personal. In fact, it is more like people are disappionted by the hosts attitude & behavior rather than people are disappionted by the hosts themslves. Pointing fingers at each other and dividing the community is never a good thing when we can join together to reach our goal. My stance on the issue is stated a number of time in this thread, I am just gonna quote it again to be clear so that people can understand why there is such a big reaction from the community. It is not about Avilo acting like a victim or the hosts being themselves, it is more about the personality and attitude shown by the hosts. + Show Spoiler +On June 30 2012 12:35 Roarer wrote:First off, I would like to say labelling other's opinion as irrational complain without examining the details is the worst way to interpret feedback. As Incontrol said in the past, the whole thing is a learning experience and feedback is one way to speed up the learning process. There are crazy stupid replies that does not worth addressing but there are also worthy points burried in this thread. People reply cuz they care, and pepole express their discontent because they are honest and vocal. To calm down the atmosphere, I will start replying to Nony's respectful post. Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 06:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I don't think avilo had anything unique to contribute to the discussion. It's his mistake for wanting to come on the show without any good reason to come on the show. He either thought what he had to say was unique and compelling OR he felt his authority was great enough that there's value behind him in particular putting his weight behind common arguments and observations. It wasn't so bad for the show before the latest show, when he originally wanted to come on, but following the qxc/idra discussion was very bad.
SC2 strategy discussions, and balance discussions in general, often happen without anything original being said. There are few units and viable builds in the game. There are few viable styles and broad strategical "moves" which are all defined by different distributions of investments (between army, economy, tech, upgrades, static defense, etc). These broad things are few but their applications are so vast that discussions quickly go beyond anyone's knowledge.
What players typically try to do with their investment distributions is find out the "sweet spot" investment for that moment in that particular game. For example, IdrA claims that there is a sweet spot investment in army that a terran player can do after going 3 CC. This sweet spot puts significant pressure on the zerg. Upping that investment, say 50%, from 2000 resources to 3000 resources, might yield very little benefit, and also makes it impossible to precede it with 3 CC, which makes it a dead-end build.
When a patch comes that significantly changes a matchup, what is usually happening is most of the known sweet spots are no longer so sweet. That's IdrA saying that the old builds don't work. What are the new sweet spots? Well, no one knows for sure or else the discussion wouldn't be happening. So the discussion can't really have a definitive end. You can only have a player from each perspective point vaguely in a direction and agree that some hope exists.
The queen and overlord changes are almost exclusively affecting sweet spots. That is, when IdrA said Stephano using queens offensively was an anomaly, that's the point he's making. This patch didn't change a unit that was core to some army composition. Such a change would change the scope of the discussion because timings would no longer be the main issue (ghost snipe change).
Idra and qxc fleshed out the issues so that anyone who didn't know what the hell was going on with TvZ atm would know. And then they did their best to use all the specific knowledge of the matchup they have, both the outdated pre-patch knowledge and the post-patch fallout, to figure out which alternatives look most promising.
Someone saying that all other options amount to nothing and that the game is fundamentally broken is not helpful. As experienced players, we know for a fact that not all options have been properly attempted. What we know is that one option that terrans were comfortable with and zergs were uncomfortable with is now no longer possible. A player from the race that just got nerfed does not have something interesting to say if whatever they're saying is negative. It's just not possible to have comprehensively proven that there's no hope. The nerfed race is interesting when they say they've figured out a new sweet spot that is looking good.
As soon as Avilo took a negative view for terran, he was setting himself up to be either completely uninteresting and unoriginal or completely ridiculous. QXC knew this fact for himself and poked fun at the situation SOTG was trying to put him in by asking something like "oh so you want me to assume it's imbalanced and defend that?" Avilo asked to be put into that position and proceeded headlong with an errant tact. Most players with more knowledge and experience would refuse to go into the same situation. They certainly wouldn't ask for it.
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As for the way JP, Geoff and Greg behaved, there's really no defending it either. There's certainly plenty of explaining it. It was nowhere near as bad as some people paint it. Context and history also soften the picture for people who saw only this one incident. But it still wasn't the kind of behavior I'd want to see on a show and not the kind of show that I want to be a part of.
When JP and Geoff said it was happening, I just took a back seat because there have been many things that they do that turn out to be awesome and popular which I wouldn't have done. Now some of those things have gone so bad that I think we'll have to be more careful. I didn't know how this would go. There was a chance it could have been awesome and I don't like preventing things that might turn out awesome just because some sensitive people might be outraged over cringing for two minutes one time.
But it's also our (unpaid) job to bring you awesome, all the damn time. So what bothers me isn't so much that Avilo had a bad time (I'm not responsible for him) but rather that SOTG presented a shitty segment. It's a difficulty of a live show. To quote Geoff, this was a learning experience. We've got to get better. Next time we'll be better. (Unless we suck next time too, and then that'll also be a learning experience, and we'll be better the time after that, trust me.) Since Avilo did not bring up much great points, I would just use the QXC Idra discussion as my example here. The balance discussion took place, IMO have very little value in itself because both the Terran and Zerg side statements are based on subjective feelings and belief. Using the "sweet sopt" analogy, the 2 players are actually arguing about if they feel the Terran options are sweet / sweet enough. It is the most obvious when Idra proposed the 3CC greedy builds and QXC just gave out his experience doing so. It is a known fact that the Zerg has the strongest economy, and QXC just said the situation is already out of control when he moved out. Is it truly out of control? Both of them cannot find any means to justify their stance. Why don't they just throw out objective information such as time needed for the Zerg to saturate three base if both race go completely passive? Information such as the resource Zerg mined when the Terran move out with a standard push after 3CC. Information like these can help justify if the suggested build is viable and allow players to better judge the situation. Of course, it is different from a real game (just like science experiments are different from reality) but it can help point out if the direction is correct. Players can then modify the estimation by squeezing in harassment and the zerg investment needed to hold them off. A discussion based on objective facts is way more fruitful than Idra saying "you can!" with QXC replying "I can't!". Even if facts cannot be provided, pass games can be used as examples. Just point to old VODs and replays. They are less convinvving but they help a bit. Do you think players are actually ill-prepared to engage in a fruitful balance discussion ? Do you think players are lacking in backing up points with facts? You can hardly persuade people with biased mindset without hard solid fact. To me, the balance discussion is more of a rant and a deny of rant. Both are just expressing how they feel instead of further understanding the match up from each other point of view. Is this what SotG should do ? I do not think so. It's just like Artosis telling Incontrol how will he smash Protoss with the Zerg HotS units.(I like Artosis's statements, but it is just not a discussion at all) It is not a discussion at all here either. Its more of 2 people writing their own respective blog, and smashing them together in one place. Is it too much to ask pros to provide these facts? I thought they work on the game and at least know the timings and resources. Is it healthy for StoG to continue to have this sort of discussion ? Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 01:42 iNcontroL wrote:
rabble rabble rabble ! ! ! !
I can't believe IdrA said stfu to someone! - WHO THE FUCK is shocked by this? SERIOUSLY. If IdrA doesn't like someone it has been shown, time in and time again that he will tell them exactly what he thinks. Avilo has EARNED his position in the community. 99% of the people bitching are looking in on something they have no clue about.. they see IdrA an etablished pro not being decent to Avilo a scumbag whiner who constantly attacks us every chance he can get.. it just so turns out nobody gives a damn because they were trained to ignore him by his constant balance whining.
Oh my god, iNcontroL is a bully because he was snickering during the interview and he makes fun of avilo! -- HELLO, I fucking mock EVERYONE. That very show I teased khaldor and wolf. Is there anyone I haven't mocked or teased? Does that make me a bully? Only if you are insecure or uninformed I guess. I mock friends AND I mock shit heads. Avilo happens to be a shit head. He is a broken record on balance AND he is a broken record on his insecurity with who is talking about him.. if that makes me a bully FINE. I guess that is the case. I fucking tried to hand that kid an olive branch and promoted his stream but he turns around and goes ape shit in this very thread one week ago naming me over and over as someone who failed in WCS which meant he was better etc etc.. I don't give a fuck if you guys don't understand my teasing and mocking of him but if you don't care to TRY to understand then wtf?
JP cut him off without letting him finish? Oh the horror! -- He was at that time incoherently babbling over IdrA about how he "agreed with greg" and kept twisting what greg was saying around as if it was a point in favor of terran. The argument was neither entertaining nor was it informative.. it was a guy hopping on the show after starting a shit storm the week before, first thing he asks about is me teasing him or taking "pot shots" and then he goes on to interrupt idra, take his words and twist them and speak over everyone else.. greg lost his cool and JP controlled that shit. Should he have barked over Avilo "thanks for coming on" and then hung up on him? I guess in some wierd internet way that would be less impolite.. ok.
We called it. We said this was Mia Rose all over again. A terrible idea amidst an otherwise fine show. So that is on us. But I got to be honest with you: Fuck a lot of you. Fuck you forever. Get all up in arms about Avilo and start trashing IdrA, JP and myself. Asking for us to quit the show and leave SC2. This show isn't earning me or IdrA money. And lately, it has been really fucking annoying actually. We aren't allowed to make mistakes when we discuss shit. We have to give context for everything we say to be careful that some uppity 30 post prick who has been around for 6 months won't run off and try to create drama.
This shit WILL blow over because at the end of the day there is no grabby sound bite.. there is no image of greg double birding the screen in a fit of rage. There is a bunch of insecure asshats interpreting things as bad as they possibly can with 0 context for why Avilo was spoken to that way. It just sickens me how completely tunnel visioned a lot of this community is.. you WANT to get people fired you WANT to make people break and snap.. great.
Well enjoy your 2.3 days of drama. After this avilo will go on to shit on everyone he talks to that doesn't agree with him. He will continue to play the martyr for as long as the community will give him that attention. We are going to keep doing the show because most of you deserve it and we will continue to make the same kind of jokes and from time to time make mistakes by allowing people on the show that don't deserve it and bring out the worst in people. People are discontent with the attitude and personality shown in this episode. They are trying to tell you guys that behavior like that is not welcomed. It is not people never expect Idra to be emotional. It is more of people want the hosts to behave professional and be a better representative of the community, its the same thing as Incontrol asking Destiny to eliminate sensitive words from Destiny's own stream. Destiny did not ask to represent the community but he was one of the representative. SotG is also another representative. People is clear this time, the behavior showed is not what they want, they do not want such behavior to be spread in the community. Idra being the bad boy all the time does not make Idra being the bad boy in the future justifiable. Fans of the show does not want his personality overshadow the atmosphere on the show. It is a clear feedback that people want a more reserve situation than potentially blowing everything up because of personality. It is the same when people complain about Incontrol's behavior. Incontrol mock others all the time but that does not mean he should do so in the future. I hope people still remeber Incontrol making fun of TLO's English accent and TLO got offended and refuse to come on the show. The mocking hurt the image of the show, it also hurt the show directly cause they lose a potential great guest. It is part of Incontrol's personality, but it is not welcomed. The whole Incontrol post I am quoting here show how the feedback is misunderstood. What Incontrol is telling us is nothing more than having an Avilo's fan(if there is any) to tell Idra that Idra should not be mad because everyone knows Avilo behaved that way all the time. Are you serious? Moerover, history in the past do not justify these behavior. If people are granted the right to offend others just because they are offended in the past, when will the cycle ends? I felt offended and I response by offending you, and you felt offended and offend me, and the whole cycle will just permit everyone to get mad and offend everyone. There is no way to draw the line when does the offensive words start either cuz people can be offended in a way you never anticipated. People having huge ego can get offended easily. People have unique past that we never know. The whole idea of revenging offensive behavior by offensive behavior is simply wrong. I am not gonna address Avilo's behvior here cause I do not care about him at all and I see no future in him representing this community. He got enough attention by being himself and he does not deserve more!
Not to be mean but I don't think anyone here cares enough to read your essay, might want to shorten it a bit or write a blog or something
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