EPTView: Roach nerf was a mistake. - Page 5
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Mannerheim
766 Posts
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On August 05 2010 02:18 Mooncat wrote: Roach Marauder Stalker Please compare these 3 units. Cost, build time, statistics. ....... .... ....... And now tell me with a straight face that roaches should only cost 1 supply again. To be fair, you should be comparing roaches with speed (and tunneling claws, I suppose) to marauders with stim and medivac support and concussive shells, as those are the most common in-game scenarios. | ||
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eivind
111 Posts
On August 05 2010 02:18 Barrin wrote: You should see my 1-base roach build that starts with 14pool 15 extractor 16queen/lord (a very standard build). I've been pushed with mass maurauders early and fended it off very easily. Stalkers? No problem. I just have so many roaches. Siege tanks? Cool. My roaches are almost ready to burrow underneath them. Only real counter I've seen is fast Immortals. You can get some serious map control with burrowed roaches. How do you even hit the marauders if Terran micro properly? Marauders own armored units. Now add stim and concussive shells and the roaches wont hit anything. Burrow is good. Well at least untill Terran actually prepare for it by adding 1 unit to the army and 1 tower near the base , then it is more or less useless. | ||
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Av4st
Canada92 Posts
I doubt they will, though. They constantly made terrible balancing decisions in WoW so I don't see them doing any better for SC2. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote: rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D Saracen would pretty much wipe metalopolis concrete with your face kid. Unless you've won something big, don't argue with your credentials around here. | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
200/200 roaches/hydra has too much HP to be killed by T and with Z macro mechanics, reinforcement can come almost immediately cause P and T cant catch up with Z in late game. there might be a slight twitch in Roach movement speed to make its stronger early on but thats all i can think of atm. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10870 Posts
"Some" upgrade on T2 or 3 to make them viable in lategame but i honestly have problems to think of a "good" idea. | ||
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koswinner
United Kingdom27 Posts
On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote: You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D PS: Just to add something, before the Roach nerf, if my memory served me right, Zerg was behind in win% at diamond level in EU and US server, but was dominant in KR server. WOW, MASS ROACH = WIN. | ||
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limbokid
Germany143 Posts
On August 05 2010 02 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 05 2010 02 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:24 Velr wrote: Roach speed to T1 please (50/50 or 100/100). This!!! It would be the soloution to every mentioned problem without getting back to roach/hydra all day long | ||
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Latham
9572 Posts
On the plus side Ultralisks and Broodlords will get sooooooo many buffs that we'll be forced to mass sunkens until we hit tier 3. Blizz doesn't want to buff zerg? Maybe let's try some T/P nerfs. | ||
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General-Gouda
United States45 Posts
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oxxo
988 Posts
Most Zs are bad and mass hydras. | ||
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aseq
Netherlands3996 Posts
8 supply = 100 minerals, 1 supply (the difference) = 12.5 minerals per roach. So it goes from 75/25 to 88.5/25, also a 12.5% increase in cost. That may sound like a lot (not really imo) but I don't think it is much either: just as much as a single attack upgrade. Surely the higher level players can keep up with the overlord count, and I just don't believe available larva would be a problem for those. I'd be okay with: 1 supply, but damage reduced to 14. | ||
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birdkicker
United States752 Posts
On August 05 2010 02:21 Saracen wrote: To be fair, you should be comparing roaches with speed (and tunneling claws, I suppose) to marauders with stim and medivac support and concussive shells, as those are the most common in-game scenarios. This. Also, roaches can be kited by both units as roaches only have 3 range. Don't forget stalker's blink ability which enables them to more strategies. What does the roach have? Oh they can burrow and move. Which is pretty useless, as it can be shut down by a single unit : a detector. | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
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SpiDaH
France198 Posts
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birdkicker
United States752 Posts
On August 05 2010 02:31 aseq wrote: I don't see how 1 supply difference can make the Roach unusable. 8 supply = 100 minerals, 1 supply (the difference) = 12.5 minerals per roach. So it goes from 75/25 to 88.5/25, also a 12.5% increase in cost. That may sound like a lot (not really imo) but I don't think it is much either: just as much as a single attack upgrade. Surely the higher level players can keep up with the overlord count, and I just don't believe available larva would be a problem for those. I'd be okay with: 1 supply, but damage reduced to 14. The problem is, that there are better 2 supply units for the zerg in the late game. Mutalisk anyone? | ||
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bokchoi
Korea (South)9498 Posts
On August 05 2010 02:18 Mooncat wrote: Roach Marauder Stalker Please compare these 3 units. Cost, build time, statistics. ....... .... ....... And now tell me with a straight face that roaches should only cost 1 supply again. Maruader beats the other two?.... (totally kidding) (sort of.) But seriously on the topic of this issue, I didn't play Zerg when Roaches were 1 supply, but I did switch over to them a bit after the nerf, and am sitll playing Zerg now. I am not claiming to be the best player out there by any means, but we can all theorycraft right? I think the Roach going back to 1 supply would fix a lot of Zerg issues, but would create new (old?) issues for the other races. A 1 supply Roach would make ZvZ not retarded, but would also break ZvT and ZvP. I do feel as though they may have been overnerfed, simply because what the change was "Roach supply changed from 1 to 2." Yes the nerf was needed but a unit that was designed to be 1 supply was simply just changed to 2 supply with no other changes? That just seems a bit extreme? However, at the same time I don't really know what could be done to tweak it without breaking it. Maybe a slight speed increase before roach speed or a slight DPS improvement? | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
That being said, something needs to be done to help the roach. I only ever use them in ZvP, because once you are fighting colossi everything else just melts. I think the biggest issue with them is that they are completely useless early game, and then in the late game they take up so much supply that you literally need to hand out free units left and right in order to free up supply for tier 3 units. | ||
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eivind
111 Posts
On August 05 2010 02:18 Mooncat wrote: Roach Marauder Stalker Please compare these 3 units. Cost, build time, statistics. About same build time and cost (gas cost is most important). Marauders: HP 125 Range 6 Damage 10 + 10 (speed 1.5) Got 2 upgrades right from barracks. Cheap ugprade for slowing attack. Gets stim to increase both speed and damage drastically, which also affects marines. Works really well with medivac for both drop and heal. Roaches: HP 145 Range 3 Damage 16 (speed 2) Gets burrow and speed upgrade after lair. Burrow is negated in presence of stealth detection. I cant see how even roaches compare to marauders. The low range is the most important difference, even though some people dont recognize how good long range is. Marauders also does more damage against most units, but with stim the marauder completely wins in term of damage. | ||
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