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On August 05 2010 01:34 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:31 Lz wrote:Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad  I never said they were bad, they just dont come fast enough compared to other races. Do you ever see a mid-game push with speedlings/hydralisk and 1-2 ultras by zerg, as compared to 3gate/1 robo or 2 factory marine/hellion/thor ? :D
Have you never played BW? Ultralisks are supposed to be endgame units. They aren't meant to deal with midgame pressure except in some really bizarre cheeses. Why the heck would something as ridiculously powerful as the ultralisk come that early. Remember unlike T and P, Z can make 12 of a unit when the tech is ready. Z tech is therefore slower to compensate.
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My thoughts:
Roach: In retrospect, a 1 supply roach is pretty ridiculous. It forces the Terran/Protoss to go mass marauders/immortals because they really have no other way to deal with the threat of a mass 200/200 roach army lategame, which is insanely easy for the Zerg to switch into. That said, yes the roach being at 2 supply hurts a lot. I think the roach would be great if it was still 1 supply but had some stats lowered to match. Like maybe reduce its damage output and HP by a little.
Ultralisk: The only reason ultralisks seem to be so good right now is that they do splash damage and have insane DPS versus armored. They still melt super fast when focus fired. It's funny, whenever you go ultra/ling, the roles are reversed from BW: the lings do the tanking while the ultras deal the damage (ling damage is absolutely terrible in this game). If you remove ultralisk splash, then you're effectively making ultralisks worthless again.
Infestor: Yeah, the infestor used to kick ass. I remember when playing on LT ZvT would be just fine because you could get an infestor to NP the Thor to stop drops. Then they made you upgrade NP and increased the energy cost, which pretty much killed your timing window. But even then, mass NP with roach could be used lategame to stop giant mech armies to reasonable success. But they just kept on nerfing so that now, it's pretty much useless. It's one of my biggest gripes with Blizzard's design: they want the game to evolve into big flashy tier 3 units lategame (which is why they keep buffing the battlecruiser and the ultralisk), but they realize NP makes this pretty much useless. So they keep nerfing NP. I wish they could see that in the late game it's not the big flashy units but the combination of all the tools you have available that makes the game. If you want to see mass carriers, go play Fastest.
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I see roaches played in almost every game and your solutions are absolutely atrocious...
The problem with roaches being 1 supply is that they are really easy to mass up and they can overpower the early/mid stages. The 2 supply roach balances the early/mid stages of the game but in the lategame they start to falter. Maybe if there was a hive upgrade for the roach to decrease the supply down to 1 it would help Zerg out alot in general especially vs. mech.
That said, Ultras are EFFING strong and imo need a little tweaking.
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I agree with:
Making roaches 1 supply.*
Moving Ultralisks to earlier tech
Changing Neural parasite. (Permanent Mind control with infinite range, and ability to move while burrowed when controlling a unit)
*or:
Keep roaches 2 supply, give back the insane HP regen when burrowed.
Other Ideas:
1a)Lair Tech upgrade for zerglings that adds +10 HP and eliminates splash damage dealt to them.
1b)Increase the effectiveness of the adrenal gland upgrade for cracklings.
2) Aura spell for the infestor that negates splash damage, and reduces damage done to the infestor, but the infestor can still be focus fired down.
3)Infested terran egg buff (200 HP)
4)Speed upgrade for hydralisks
5)Uprade at Lair for HP regen near a creep tumor. (Stationary medivac)
I think zerg just needs some nice buffs to HP/Splash damage reduction/healing.
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I don't really have anything useful to say about the content of your post, other than that it's a tricky topic, but I'm really digging the Roach's glasses! 
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Roach Nerf didnt stop high level Zergs when it happened why fix what aint broke?
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i find roaches fine, i mean, they fit nicely in my play in early (just a few) and mid game, with banelings zerglings and mutas. In late game there are ultras on the field, with lings.
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On August 05 2010 01:36 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:34 Defrag wrote:On August 05 2010 01:31 Lz wrote:Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad I never said they were bad, they just dont come fast enough compared to other races. Do you ever see a mid-game push with speedlings/hydralisk and 1-2 ultras by zerg, as compared to 3gate/1 robo or 2 factory marine/hellion/thor ? :D Have you never played BW? Ultralisks are supposed to be endgame units. They aren't meant to deal with midgame pressure except in some really bizarre cheeses. Why the heck would something as ridiculously powerful as the ultralisk come that early. Remember unlike T and P, Z can make 12 of a unit when the tech is ready. Z tech is therefore slower to compensate.
This is not SC:BW mate.
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1 supply roach was definitely not working fine. It was very imbalanced late game given how larva inject works.
I don't think it really was the roach nerf that made Zerg vulnerable to early rushes. In the early game, the 2 supply roach in a sense means that each roach costs 12.5 more minerals and takes up 1/8 more larva.
These sorts of early game attacks from Terran have been viable since like patch 7. It's just that Terrans have figured out like 8 or so viable early game attacks against Zerg, which is sort of overwhelming even for top players.
I have absolutely no idea why they nerfed neural parasite to 9ish real-life seconds. I guess it was kind of absurdly good against motherships, battlecruisers, and carriers. But they should make neural parasite 50/50 and research more quickly to compensate.
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you are wrong, they made roaches 2 supply because roaches were imbalanced in the late game, who cares about early game zerg is fine. 140 roaches in a 200/200 army is just disgustingly imbalanced, and also if you trade armies with your opponent and then can instantly remake 100 roaches..... its not balanced at all, roaches cannot be 1 supply sry
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Zerg does seem to have very limited openings, and ZvZ is retarded.
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On August 05 2010 01:38 drewbie.root wrote:
you are wrong, they made roaches 2 supply because roaches were imbalanced in the late game, who cares about early game zerg is fine. 140 roaches in a 200/200 army is just disgustingly imbalanced, and also if you trade armies with your opponent and then can instantly remake 100 roaches..... its not balanced at all, roaches cannot be 1 supply sry
this.
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I'm happy seeing my Z opponents doing something else than spam roaches (+hydra). Fix was inevitable.
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The problem with ultralisk is that they are very hard to get too, but when the zerg gets them they are insanely strong, and counter all terran units. IMO the tech or perhaps the price of the ultralisk should be changed so it was not so gas heavy. The gas heavy high tier units like the broodlord, the battlecruiser, carrier, mothership are gas heavy because they are cool and a nice bonus. The ultralisk though is a neccesity, and therefore should be more easily to get.
So change the tech, and make it possible to get a ultras a little easier than before. This in combination with a nerf on the +dmg to armoured units would make sense. It will still counter mech, but terran will now have a chance. And while the ultra it self will be a little weaker (and IMO more balanced as it is insanely strong right now), it will make especially TvZ a lot more balanced, and decrease the timing window terran mech has to end the game before ultras get out. Also it wont be gg for the terran in the late game when the zerg has a strong economy and ultras vs terrans bio.
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Ultras are excellent, but I totally agree with your assessment of the early game. Zerg has 2 choices early game: all-in baneling or desperately try and stay alive and respond to the innumerable openings from T or P.
I have a crazy idea: what if we made roaches only cost minerals...?
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On August 05 2010 01:36 Saracen wrote:
Ultralisk: The only reason ultralisks seem to be so good right now is that they do splash damage and have insane DPS versus armored. They still melt super fast when focus fired. It's funny, whenever you go ultra/ling, the roles are reversed from BW: the lings do the tanking while the ultras deal the damage (ling damage is absolutely terrible in this game). If you remove ultralisk splash, then you're effectively making ultralisks worthless again.
@ Ultralisk: then it wouldnt change anything at Hive tech, would it? Since with armor upgrade splash would come back anyway
On August 05 2010 01:39 Lz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:38 drewbie.root wrote:
you are wrong, they made roaches 2 supply because roaches were imbalanced in the late game, who cares about early game zerg is fine. 140 roaches in a 200/200 army is just disgustingly imbalanced, and also if you trade armies with your opponent and then can instantly remake 100 roaches..... its not balanced at all, roaches cannot be 1 supply sry this.
Any idea then? Besides, rebuilding 100 roaches worth 7500 minerals and 2500 gas means you lost the game 10 minutes earlier anyway. :D
Wasnt that the whole idea behind Zerg race design, to win the game before Zerg takes 7 bases and over-swrams you three?
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Drewbie you are right about the late game but early Zerg is anything but fine.
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I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit?
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I think swap roach with hydra make hydra a bit weaker and cheaper make roach stronger and a bit more expensive.
This way there will be more balance. pre Lair zerg has lings/roaches no long range or AA.No other race has so late range/AA unit.
And so early this 2 supply mean more overlords which in early game are not that cheap.
Hydra upgrades may still be lair tech so they don't become overpowered too early.
This will give zerg a safe build from which they can transition to other builds.Basicly this won't change much late game, but will give zerg better chance in early and mid game to be aggressive,becouse now all in is the only way to be aggressive.
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It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who thinks that 1 supply roaches were kind of silly in the first place.
Zealots are two food, ffs
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EPT
