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Hey, this will be a long post considering current zerg balance - I will try to avoid ideas of 'nerf terran' or 'nerf protoss' and completetly focus on pure state of zerg right now.
Just to start with, I will drop some creditentials since I would like to avoid getting flamed for ' LOL COPPER LEAGUE IDEAS' - if you dont care, just skip this paragraph.
If you care, click: + Show Spoiler +Before I had to stop for monday/tuesday I was at 612 elo, which was top 5 euro and highest rated zerg. Im at 636 elo atm, which is top50 according to RTS sanctuary and currently 5th zerg. During beta I've played over 1100 games with familiar success ( ~400-450 being random ), being rated top50 eu for full duration of beta, minus phase 2.
Recently I've been trying to develop some new strats and openings, and as far as it goes, the problem with zerg is as following: there are no viable multiple openings against each race.
Sure, you can all-in baneling burst against Terran, but at high diamond play you will almost always get blocked which will result in a lose just minutes later. Against Terran there is probably one opening only atm which is pool with speedlings-> hatch and then adapt. Pretty much same against Protoss. This is quite different from Terran, who can open with reapers, marine/tank push, thor drops, fast banshees, fast vikings, hellion harras into fast expo, hellion into marauder/tank/marine push etc.
By no means Im saying that Terrann needs a nerf - it's exactly opposite: Zerg needs some unit diversity, and instead it's getting worse and worse.
And here we come to Beta Patch 12 notes:
![[image loading]](http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/5751/roach.jpg)
* ZERG
o Roach
+ Supply count increased from 1 to 2.
This is where the problem lies in my opinion, and let me explain why.
There was one huge over-nerf, where almost whole scene didint agree it was justified ( if you would like to see players opinions please refer to this thread: Patch 12 - Changes and Discussion ), and Zerg players were promised something in exchange. Better infestor, faster ultralisk, whatever. Nope, nothing came.
Let me ask you: how often do you see roaches being used in high-lvl games now?
Im sure you will agree that almost never, probably only case they are used is defending a 2 gate early game from protoss, or SOMETIMES against hellions, since it's questionable as well - at the moment it's considered better to just build second queen and block the ramp of natural while spine crawlers defend from hellions.
Roaches are just not good enough for 2 supply in early game, and later they are just not made often, since there are better units: hydra's who are far superior vs Toss, mutalisks against Terran or Zerg.
Some people will say 2 supply instead of 1 isnt a big deal - yes it is. For every 4 roaches you make you could make another 2 drones.
I think roaches being brought back to 1 supply would fix quite a lot of problems without imbalancing the game - Roaches were fine with 1 supply after all the nerfs already, which is pretty easy to see in the thread from patch 12 I linked.
One supply roach could fix:
1) Early terran pushes.
Roach was designed to counter mech, and let's be honest - it doesnt now. Tanks are insane and later game even 1 supply Roach wouldnt be game breaking since atm Zerg's only chance is to... zerg terran anyway.
There would be actually a way to keep decent economy compared to Terran with mules, and prepare for a upcoming Thor mix/Tank mix push coming in 7-8th minute of game.
2) Two gate pushes / pylon+cannon blocks.
It's insanely hard to defend a proxy 2 gate push on Desert Oasis/Lost temple vs Toss, let alone speaking of mid/late game where toss can just put forge and block the choke with cannons. There is no viable counter by Zerg atm ( banelings are all-in which is easy to counter by 1 proper force field ), besides playing macro game and praying you can get to corruptors and mass enough force before Toss push with 2 robo colossus comes.
There is no punishment for Toss playing that kind of strat, since there is pretty much no way Zerg can reply fast and make any sort of counter attack.
3) The awesome state of Zerg vs Zerg match-up
Does it need a comment?
Speedlings vs Speedlings, add some banelings, there you have the most random match-up of sc2. One bad or lucky explosion can completely turn the game around.
Almost every player hates the match-up and big part of player base would agree that roach/hydra at least required some flanking, fungal growth usage and micro instead of being random.
Roach being 1 supply would make it possible to defend early speedling/baneling push, however speed-baneling would still be viable as the strat takes insane map control with spedlings + mutas. Let us choose what we want to play, and not force the match up into one strategy.
My suggestion?
Bring roach back to 1 supply, but..
I dont think it would be imbalanced, as one supply roach was already working fine pre-nerf, but if Blizzard thinks it would be game-breaking in lower leagues ( which is probably the reasoning for destroying the unit itself ) just nerf it to 0 armor ( atm its 1 armor ) and put an 100min/100gas update at lair tech that would increase armor of roach by 2.
Pretty simple, mid and late game unit dealers used against roach deal 50+ per hit anyway so it wouldnt be abused, and early game zerg would have an armored unit capable of mixing into the army. ( I still think it would be fine with 1 armor, thou it's just a proposition 'in case' ).
There are obviously few more problems with Zerg, but that would be a good start, wouldnt it?
I think Blizzard could think of some other changes like:
1) Putting ultralisk on ealier tech
Same as for Roach, zerg just needs a unit that can soak dmg and dont die in 1 shot. Ultralisks take considerably longer to get out then other race's equivalents ( Colossus / Thor ) and they are not really available until late game play. My idea would be making them available earlier: Make Ultralisk Den require Lair + infestation pit, without teching to Hive.
For that, remove Ultralisks splash and add it to the armor upgrade on Hive tech. There you have an unit that takes dmg, doesnt cut throu armies like break, and actually makes spedling/ultra work together.
That would punish also players attack moving and not microing as well, since Zerg would have a mid-game dmg taker that could actually work when pushing against tanks without control.
2) Neureal Parasite change on Infestor
Please... first it was nerfed to be researched ( 110 times and high cost, ok ). Then it was nerfed by DOUBLING the energy needed from 50 to 100. And now, it was nerfed to last 12 seconds from infinite. How ridiculous is that?
Neural parasite is absolutely terrible atm, and putting so much gas into Infestor tech is just asking to get owned. Fungal growth is still very cool, but it's mostly used against MMM ball of terran ( which is never played atm anyway ) or in ZvZ when one player is trying to stop mutalisk harras. Occasionally maybe to stop a hellion ball late game, when we are going speedlings or hydra.
Infested terrans and neural are not used at all, and they wont be without any change to them.
The problem with Terran dominance over Zerg is in Zerg itself.
Every player is saying that Zerg needs more unit diversity since the start of the beta, and Blizzard is taking the completely opposite direction. First roach was gone, now Infestor is pretty much done as well - did you see a neural parasite off cliff latetly to control Thor or tanks being dropped on cliff on Lost temple? Surprise, nom it doesnt happen.
Thanks for reading. Thoughts?
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Ultralisks are ridiculously strong in the current build you know. The Roach nerf make holding off some early terran pressure hard, but that's a general problem not just an issue with the roach.
Go make some ultralisks, they just rape everything terran makes currently.
Neural Parasite is still devastating against Thor builds and harass.
I agree ZvZ sucks though
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Ultras didn't get better? Are you serious?
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get those glasses off that zerg fun
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On August 05 2010 01:24 Piy wrote:
Ultralisks are ridiculously strong in the current build you know. The Roach nerf make holding off some early terran pressure hard, but that's a general problem not just an issue with the roach.
Go make some ultralisks, they just rape everything terran makes currently.
Neural Parasite is still devastating against Thor builds and harass.
I agree ZvZ sucks though
Sir, you didint read my Ultralisk suggestion of getting splash removed and putting it together on the hive upgrade with armor. That way it wouldnt cut throu with anything, and would just work as a tank.
I cant agree on Neural Parasite, if you can get a mind control off, any decent player will snipe your infestor with sieged tanks or stimpacked marine/marauder anyway in 3s 
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very well thought out post.. i agree with the supply cost on roaches.. i love them, and 1 supply would definitely make them more viable than they currently are.
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I actually see a lot of roach play, in my games, in just random ladder games from other people, in high-level play.
I do agree on some points but not on others.
You say you want the roach to be 1 supply again, and in turn nerf the 1 armor and make it an upgrade.
My thoughts:
-How does this help in the early game, yes you need to make less overlords, with the implications of that, but now zealots become harder to deal with, so you will need to make more roaches.
-Their 1 armor actually helps a good amount in the later stages of the game, and especially once you start getting some upgrades
-Another roach upgrade? as it stands now I already have so much "bloat" in my ZvT games for example, because you need tons of different units to deal with ground/air/different openings, I want either/combination of Ol drop/burrow/roach burrow movement + speed/nydus, then I haven't even started upgrades.
And then I need another upgrade? No I actually want to see less upgrades or cheaper upgrades for specific things not more
-And more importantly with the armor gone, how does this help diversity? Roach is arguably already a hydra with less range but more hp/armor that can't shoot air, that will make it even worse in that regard imo.
Agree that neural parasite sucks atm, I don't even know why I would put all that gas/research time into it now.
I do think that zerg has some problems, but imo they require more/something else then just fiddling again with the roach.
+1 supply roach will break ZvP balance imo.
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Roach nerf sucks. I don't really have anything to add except that almost all of zergs units seem to require too much investment for little return.
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ultras are good i think they could use a shorter build time or make the den build faster.
roach 1 supply i think is TOO good, but 2 supply is kinda lame. I do use roaches a lot and i see them used a lot, but the overlord issue kinda sucks.
not really sure what to do with em, maybe faster attack speed?
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At least the nerf made zergs do something but mass roach hydra all game
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Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad
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Maybe you've forgotten, but before the roach nerf it was Z >>>>> P and T because all you had to do was 200/200 on roaches. A 200/200 roach army was almost unstoppable. The roach change was REQUIRED!
However, your points on having only 1 viable opening vs terran is valid. That is moreso a fault of reapers forcing speedlings than anything else. Roach supply doesn't even factor in.
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The roach nerf was very necessary and I'm glad blizzard did perfect balance adjustments in beta. Pre-roach nerf every zvt, zvp, zvz was about how many roaches you could make every game.
Roaches were waaaaay too strong back then, now they are just right. And ultras, omg ultras have almost always been strong, but then they were uber buffed and are very good.
People are too quick to judge SC2 balance. Almost no one is qualified to make absolute balance judgements, because there usually is a counter or what is perceived is imba really is not.
Also, being a very good player, even a top known player does not make a person qualified to balance a game, nor does it mean all of their balance judgements are perfect or anywhere near good. Blizzard are the game designers + balance designers, and 9/10 they are usually correct in how they are balancing the game.
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On August 05 2010 01:31 Lz wrote:Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad
I never said they were bad, they just dont come fast enough compared to other races.
Do you ever see a mid-game push with speedlings/hydralisk and 1-2 ultras by zerg, as compared to 3gate/1 robo or 2 factory marine/hellion/thor ? :D
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I'm still on the boat of 'keep 2 supply roaches, but revert them to 2 armor again.'
Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with the zerg. Maybe a small tweak, but I'm good as is.
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I disagree. Roach pressure into expand is still a decent build against Protoss.
Roaches will perhaps fill more of a niche roll now but that's a good thing. There was a time I wanted Roaches just removed from the game entirely, this is a better compromise.
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The roach nerf really does cut down on their viability, early game it is a massive hassle to produce them fast enough to defend a timing attack or make a push. Mid game they are alright because your income is higher and you aren't near the 200/200 cap but end game you will get rolled because they simply do not stand up against other two supply units.
The problem is that roaches shouldn't be a mid game unit and are only useful in certain situations. They have some really unique mechanics and I would love to see them lowered to one supply so that I can use them as burrow harassers without devoting so much of my potential army to them.
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On August 05 2010 01:31 Lz wrote:Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad
On August 05 2010 01:32 Floophead_III wrote:
Maybe you've forgotten, but before the roach nerf it was Z >>>>> P and T because all you had to do was 200/200 on roaches. A 200/200 roach army was almost unstoppable. The roach change was REQUIRED!
However, your points on having only 1 viable opening vs terran is valid. That is moreso a fault of reapers forcing speedlings than anything else. Roach supply doesn't even factor in.
qft + qft. Ultras own, and playing versus 70 roaches every game was pretty boring and shallow, not to mention very imba.
As T back then, only mass tank mech could beat mass roaches, but only because siege tanks may have also been too strong at that point in time, which blizzard also appropriately adjusted 
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Let me ask you: how often do you see roaches being used in high-lvl games now?
im low diamond dont know if im high enough but play against higher z diam.
and I see them OFTEN!
as a hellion droper the z need them agaisnt me and as a hellion droper i have problems with fast roaches. if they are 1 food i think you can break 111 build at start easy.
i dont post in this tvz threads and i just ignore the zerg who complain tvz after loose.
i dont complain : ultras are op when i loose to them ( and i do often) .
i hear BC are op after a zerg build roach into ultra
i hear hellion are op after a z build hydra only
i hear thor are op after a zerg build muta only and stay on 1 base hole game.
and i see many nice zerg strats that let me play def and they easy outmacro me.
ultras:
if the z gets ultras and you dont have massair your death. so a tvz is a little bit boring.
as t the question is : can i kill him before he gets utras?
The change your suggested is not bad i think. bliz should test this.
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On August 05 2010 01:34 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:31 Lz wrote:Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad I never said they were bad, they just dont come fast enough compared to other races. Do you ever see a mid-game push with speedlings/hydralisk and 1-2 ultras by zerg, as compared to 3gate/1 robo or 2 factory marine/hellion/thor ? :D
Have you never played BW? Ultralisks are supposed to be endgame units. They aren't meant to deal with midgame pressure except in some really bizarre cheeses. Why the heck would something as ridiculously powerful as the ultralisk come that early. Remember unlike T and P, Z can make 12 of a unit when the tech is ready. Z tech is therefore slower to compensate.
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My thoughts:
Roach: In retrospect, a 1 supply roach is pretty ridiculous. It forces the Terran/Protoss to go mass marauders/immortals because they really have no other way to deal with the threat of a mass 200/200 roach army lategame, which is insanely easy for the Zerg to switch into. That said, yes the roach being at 2 supply hurts a lot. I think the roach would be great if it was still 1 supply but had some stats lowered to match. Like maybe reduce its damage output and HP by a little.
Ultralisk: The only reason ultralisks seem to be so good right now is that they do splash damage and have insane DPS versus armored. They still melt super fast when focus fired. It's funny, whenever you go ultra/ling, the roles are reversed from BW: the lings do the tanking while the ultras deal the damage (ling damage is absolutely terrible in this game). If you remove ultralisk splash, then you're effectively making ultralisks worthless again.
Infestor: Yeah, the infestor used to kick ass. I remember when playing on LT ZvT would be just fine because you could get an infestor to NP the Thor to stop drops. Then they made you upgrade NP and increased the energy cost, which pretty much killed your timing window. But even then, mass NP with roach could be used lategame to stop giant mech armies to reasonable success. But they just kept on nerfing so that now, it's pretty much useless. It's one of my biggest gripes with Blizzard's design: they want the game to evolve into big flashy tier 3 units lategame (which is why they keep buffing the battlecruiser and the ultralisk), but they realize NP makes this pretty much useless. So they keep nerfing NP. I wish they could see that in the late game it's not the big flashy units but the combination of all the tools you have available that makes the game. If you want to see mass carriers, go play Fastest.
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I see roaches played in almost every game and your solutions are absolutely atrocious...
The problem with roaches being 1 supply is that they are really easy to mass up and they can overpower the early/mid stages. The 2 supply roach balances the early/mid stages of the game but in the lategame they start to falter. Maybe if there was a hive upgrade for the roach to decrease the supply down to 1 it would help Zerg out alot in general especially vs. mech.
That said, Ultras are EFFING strong and imo need a little tweaking.
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I agree with:
Making roaches 1 supply.*
Moving Ultralisks to earlier tech
Changing Neural parasite. (Permanent Mind control with infinite range, and ability to move while burrowed when controlling a unit)
*or:
Keep roaches 2 supply, give back the insane HP regen when burrowed.
Other Ideas:
1a)Lair Tech upgrade for zerglings that adds +10 HP and eliminates splash damage dealt to them.
1b)Increase the effectiveness of the adrenal gland upgrade for cracklings.
2) Aura spell for the infestor that negates splash damage, and reduces damage done to the infestor, but the infestor can still be focus fired down.
3)Infested terran egg buff (200 HP)
4)Speed upgrade for hydralisks
5)Uprade at Lair for HP regen near a creep tumor. (Stationary medivac)
I think zerg just needs some nice buffs to HP/Splash damage reduction/healing.
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I don't really have anything useful to say about the content of your post, other than that it's a tricky topic, but I'm really digging the Roach's glasses!
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Roach Nerf didnt stop high level Zergs when it happened why fix what aint broke?
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i find roaches fine, i mean, they fit nicely in my play in early (just a few) and mid game, with banelings zerglings and mutas. In late game there are ultras on the field, with lings.
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On August 05 2010 01:36 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:34 Defrag wrote:On August 05 2010 01:31 Lz wrote:Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad I never said they were bad, they just dont come fast enough compared to other races. Do you ever see a mid-game push with speedlings/hydralisk and 1-2 ultras by zerg, as compared to 3gate/1 robo or 2 factory marine/hellion/thor ? :D Have you never played BW? Ultralisks are supposed to be endgame units. They aren't meant to deal with midgame pressure except in some really bizarre cheeses. Why the heck would something as ridiculously powerful as the ultralisk come that early. Remember unlike T and P, Z can make 12 of a unit when the tech is ready. Z tech is therefore slower to compensate.
This is not SC:BW mate.
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1 supply roach was definitely not working fine. It was very imbalanced late game given how larva inject works.
I don't think it really was the roach nerf that made Zerg vulnerable to early rushes. In the early game, the 2 supply roach in a sense means that each roach costs 12.5 more minerals and takes up 1/8 more larva.
These sorts of early game attacks from Terran have been viable since like patch 7. It's just that Terrans have figured out like 8 or so viable early game attacks against Zerg, which is sort of overwhelming even for top players.
I have absolutely no idea why they nerfed neural parasite to 9ish real-life seconds. I guess it was kind of absurdly good against motherships, battlecruisers, and carriers. But they should make neural parasite 50/50 and research more quickly to compensate.
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you are wrong, they made roaches 2 supply because roaches were imbalanced in the late game, who cares about early game zerg is fine. 140 roaches in a 200/200 army is just disgustingly imbalanced, and also if you trade armies with your opponent and then can instantly remake 100 roaches..... its not balanced at all, roaches cannot be 1 supply sry
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Zerg does seem to have very limited openings, and ZvZ is retarded.
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On August 05 2010 01:38 drewbie.root wrote:
you are wrong, they made roaches 2 supply because roaches were imbalanced in the late game, who cares about early game zerg is fine. 140 roaches in a 200/200 army is just disgustingly imbalanced, and also if you trade armies with your opponent and then can instantly remake 100 roaches..... its not balanced at all, roaches cannot be 1 supply sry
this.
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I'm happy seeing my Z opponents doing something else than spam roaches (+hydra). Fix was inevitable.
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The problem with ultralisk is that they are very hard to get too, but when the zerg gets them they are insanely strong, and counter all terran units. IMO the tech or perhaps the price of the ultralisk should be changed so it was not so gas heavy. The gas heavy high tier units like the broodlord, the battlecruiser, carrier, mothership are gas heavy because they are cool and a nice bonus. The ultralisk though is a neccesity, and therefore should be more easily to get.
So change the tech, and make it possible to get a ultras a little easier than before. This in combination with a nerf on the +dmg to armoured units would make sense. It will still counter mech, but terran will now have a chance. And while the ultra it self will be a little weaker (and IMO more balanced as it is insanely strong right now), it will make especially TvZ a lot more balanced, and decrease the timing window terran mech has to end the game before ultras get out. Also it wont be gg for the terran in the late game when the zerg has a strong economy and ultras vs terrans bio.
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Ultras are excellent, but I totally agree with your assessment of the early game. Zerg has 2 choices early game: all-in baneling or desperately try and stay alive and respond to the innumerable openings from T or P.
I have a crazy idea: what if we made roaches only cost minerals...?
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On August 05 2010 01:36 Saracen wrote:
Ultralisk: The only reason ultralisks seem to be so good right now is that they do splash damage and have insane DPS versus armored. They still melt super fast when focus fired. It's funny, whenever you go ultra/ling, the roles are reversed from BW: the lings do the tanking while the ultras deal the damage (ling damage is absolutely terrible in this game). If you remove ultralisk splash, then you're effectively making ultralisks worthless again.
@ Ultralisk: then it wouldnt change anything at Hive tech, would it? Since with armor upgrade splash would come back anyway
On August 05 2010 01:39 Lz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:38 drewbie.root wrote:
you are wrong, they made roaches 2 supply because roaches were imbalanced in the late game, who cares about early game zerg is fine. 140 roaches in a 200/200 army is just disgustingly imbalanced, and also if you trade armies with your opponent and then can instantly remake 100 roaches..... its not balanced at all, roaches cannot be 1 supply sry this.
Any idea then? Besides, rebuilding 100 roaches worth 7500 minerals and 2500 gas means you lost the game 10 minutes earlier anyway. :D
Wasnt that the whole idea behind Zerg race design, to win the game before Zerg takes 7 bases and over-swrams you three?
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Drewbie you are right about the late game but early Zerg is anything but fine.
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I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit?
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I think swap roach with hydra make hydra a bit weaker and cheaper make roach stronger and a bit more expensive.
This way there will be more balance. pre Lair zerg has lings/roaches no long range or AA.No other race has so late range/AA unit.
And so early this 2 supply mean more overlords which in early game are not that cheap.
Hydra upgrades may still be lair tech so they don't become overpowered too early.
This will give zerg a safe build from which they can transition to other builds.Basicly this won't change much late game, but will give zerg better chance in early and mid game to be aggressive,becouse now all in is the only way to be aggressive.
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It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who thinks that 1 supply roaches were kind of silly in the first place.
Zealots are two food, ffs
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On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit?
I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you.
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How about making the hydra 1 supply again like in broodwar? and maybe giving roach its 2 armor back. Then the roach had a more specific role as tank and stuff....
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I actually agree with what the OP says, make roaches 1 supply, I didnt see a reason why they changed that in the first place and time told, that zerg needs another 1supply unit!
By now it should also be pretty much common sense, that zerg needs some kind of buff to hold even to terran at least!
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So..in summary the OP wants a 2 armor, 1 supply roach ? riiiiiiiight....
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To be honest I make about 5 roaches early-mid game if I'm being pressured early and I forget about the tech completely after that. I don't even bother making roaches because of the supply space they take up. I'd rather use the gas and minerals for lings mutas hydra or baneling (unless I have a surplus then everything gets thrown into roaches if I need the support).
I don't think reducing the roach to 1 supply is the answer though, but I believe making 2 roaches 3 supply is good medium (2 roaches pop per egg). Blizzard has commented that this is not something they want to do since it involved 1.5 supplies of units, which I get and it's understandable. Maybe add armor to the roach or make the speed a t1 upgrade or something, or give us burrow as a t1 upgrade? Idk roaches don't do it for me atm. I have more fun with Infestors lol.
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On August 05 2010 01:54 Schism wrote:
So..in summary the OP wants a 2 armor, 1 supply roach ? riiiiiiiight....
Thanks for not reading the post at all before posting.
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Well I have only two suggestions for current Zerg unit improvement:
1. Remove Armored status from all buildings (except maybe defensive ones) as Zerg has no extra damage to armored units (Ultras and Blings have special attack for buildings). This just lets Terran and Toss abuse drops to take out zerg tech without Zerg able to do that in return. This a lame thing similar to Zerg not being able to abuse cliffs in any way.
2. Give Corruptors extra damage against armored, not against massive. Corruptors are just a bit too focused on a small group of units and people have a right to complain about them.
As for the OP asking for 1 supply roaches I do not think that is the right way, but zerg needs some other different options in the start like letting burrowed roaches pass under buildings and rocks. That would almost turn Roaches into Zerg's cliff walking unit.
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zerg still hasn't adapted out of mass roaches huh...
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Just because you dont see many different openings for zerg in this early stage of the game doesnt mean they aren't possible;
Lair builds pretty quick, hydra den and infestor pit too, there must be some opener possibilities there
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On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you.
rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid.
And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league.
And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D
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Coming from a Zerg user:
To be honest, I use Roaches a lot. More so than Hydras. Roaches are so much better cost-wise in any ground combat. I would say 1 supply seems a little too good, but so does many other units (but not lets not get into that), so why don't we all compromise for 1.5? Not only will this be better balance-wise, but you would actually feel like you control a decent-sized swarm then. SC2 just doesn't have the same feel of SC:BW in that you're controlling a massive army.
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a lot of word wont make me think you are right with what you say... i dont think it was a mistake.
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On August 05 2010 01:36 Saracen wrote:
I wish they could see that in the late game it's not the big flashy units but the combination of all the tools you have available that makes the game. If you want to see mass carriers, go play Fastest.
I totally agree. The high end units instantly bolster your army way to much for how seemingly easy and unrisky it is to get them. ex: BCs build time is 90 seconds and they obliterate the ground, Thors come out and you instantly negate light air harass with 10 range, ect... Teching should be more of a risk and less of "if i dont tech right away then ill get run over," and the timings and refinement should come with practice and skill rather than "hey if i get this unit now ill be absolutely safe." There should be a natural progression throughout the game and in the current state Blizzard makes that hard. If there were maybe more upgrades like if the Thor had 7 range vs air and there was an upgrade for +3 range then that would make for some more dynamic and creative play as well as a steady progression.
Im not whining, its just my opinion on the current state of the game. If you play around with the game and figure out how things work you would be surprised at how many cool little tricks you can find out that will help naturally evolve SC2, like if you have a group of muta flying into your opponents base and a thor comes along, you can click past the thor with the muta until you are over it and then attack so your muta dont stack and you can snipe the thor with very minimal losses. Many people would just turn around when they would get a free thor or they would engage but just A-click the thor and the muta stack and blow up to splash. All of these "imbalance" threads can be solved by just playing better...
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On August 05 2010 02:02 HardcoreBilly wrote:
Coming from a Zerg user:
To be honest, I use Roaches a lot. More so than Hydras. Roaches are so much better cost-wise in any ground combat. I would say 1 supply seems a little too good, but so does many other units (but not lets not get into that), so why don't we all compromise for 1.5? Not only will this be better balance-wise, but you would actually feel like you control a decent-sized swarm then. SC2 just doesn't have the same feel of SC:BW in that you're controlling a massive army.
Get two roaches from same egg and it costs 3 supply? :D
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Just so you know, you're late to the Roach rage party. :|
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Increase the number of options for Zerg by making the tech come cheaper / faster. Zerg is predictable, tech slowly and therefore has few cool builds.
Now balance Zerg around that.
(And give Infestors a consume like ability! Or maybe make them explode when they are out of energy :p)
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I would love to see the hydra and roach switch tech spots (ala sc1) which gives the roach more of the tech spot of the lurker
nerf hydra stats and to 1 supply, keep roach at 2. switch their tech spots
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On August 05 2010 01:36 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:34 Defrag wrote:On August 05 2010 01:31 Lz wrote:Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad I never said they were bad, they just dont come fast enough compared to other races. Do you ever see a mid-game push with speedlings/hydralisk and 1-2 ultras by zerg, as compared to 3gate/1 robo or 2 factory marine/hellion/thor ? :D Have you never played BW? Ultralisks are supposed to be endgame units. They aren't meant to deal with midgame pressure except in some really bizarre cheeses. Why the heck would something as ridiculously powerful as the ultralisk come that early. Remember unlike T and P, Z can make 12 of a unit when the tech is ready. Z tech is therefore slower to compensate.
Have you never played BW? Do you know what starts with an "L" and ends with "urker", that the SC2 Zerg would really need in its current state?
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i don't think roaches need higher supply, but zerg players overall need to start using the infestor a lot more
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I agree, I was a zerg player before and I basicly quit because of the roach nerf, Is there a poll for this? would be interesting to see what liquid thinks
Edit, And don't go around bullshiting that roaches are to strong if you get to many of them
PvZ stalkers can snipe them and the immortals take them on before breakfeast.
PvT There is this little thing called marauder
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On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D
You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit.
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On August 05 2010 02:06 andeh wrote:
I would love to see the hydra and roach switch tech spots (ala sc1) which gives the roach more of the tech spot of the lurker
nerf hydra stats and to 1 supply, keep roach at 2. switch their tech spots
That would be cool but would need rebalancing of T and P as well. This would almost instantly make reapers, zealots and helions useless in early game.
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As a zerg user I agree with some of that, as I only really get roaches to stop a 2 gate or rarely to tank some damage while I delay to ultras against terran, but at the same time I think 1 supply roach does make them a bit too spammable.
I agree with whoever said leave them at 2 supply and bring back 2 armor.
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Remember when Roaches were 75 min, 0 gas, 1 supply?
Remember how much fun everyone else had losing to mass roaches?
Yeah. I don't disagree that roaches are underused right now, but dropping them a full supply is a serious buff. I really think that if that happens, we're going to see the old early beta days of mass-roach all over again.
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I didn't believe in Ultras yesterday till I played a pretty good Terran. I countered his early push with speedlings naturally, then countered his second push with muts, then when he came in with vikings tanks marines and marauders he could do nothing do the 5 ultras i had accompanying my muts. I destroyed his second expansion, natural and everything he had with 1/1 ultras + the ultra only armor upgrade (+2).
All 5 ultras lived and the muts did nothing. And I recall someone using roaches in a finals match just recently.
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Just change the maps so my lings don't clump and die in two tank shots.
Thx have a nice day
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I think moving the roach movement speed upgrade down to hatch tech would be a great way to get roaches to be more viable in zvz. At the moment they are just too slow to be of any use, which leads to nothing but ling/baneling
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Thor's special does crazy damage, no clue why people do not use that to kill Ultras.
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I still dont understand how 1 supply roaches were unfair in this game! If a Zerg had the money to make 100 roaches after a big battle, for gods sake he deserves to win the game, period! Go attack before he reaches this kind of money ffs
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On August 05 2010 01:49 AcOrP wrote:
I think swap roach with hydra make hydra a bit weaker and cheaper make roach stronger and a bit more expensive.
This way there will be more balance. pre Lair zerg has lings/roaches no long range or AA.No other race has so late range/AA unit.
And so early this 2 supply mean more overlords which in early game are not that cheap.
Hydra upgrades may still be lair tech so they don't become overpowered too early.
This will give zerg a safe build from which they can transition to other builds.Basicly this won't change much late game, but will give zerg better chance in early and mid game to be aggressive,becouse now all in is the only way to be aggressive.
Nono Thats a huge Nerf. Hydras lose to hellions+ thors when repaired in the early game and siege tanks. Roaches can keep the zerg alive for some time in the early game. They just need to make it easier for zerg to reach ultras combined with a slight nerf. Thats it, and perhaps some map adjustments.
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Maybe just take out the gas requirement so getting roaches doesnt make your transition to lair that much later? If they were all minerals they would be a good mineral sink when you are out of gas too.
or make em 50/25?
I think the unit itself is fine really. takes good dmg and packs a punch. You can get a decent # of them even with the supply issue but they slow down your tech at the expense of extra overlords and lost drones.
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On August 05 2010 02:11 done wrote:
I still dont understand how 1 supply roaches were unfair in this game! If a Zerg had the money to make 100 roaches after a big battle, for gods sake he deserves to win the game, period! Go attack before he reaches this kind of money ffs
I am Terran and I want to camp like a pro in my base 3/4 of the game then come out and a-move to victory, I disagree.
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how about doubling the cost for roaches, make it 3 supply and let 2 spawn at the same time like zerglings?
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On August 05 2010 01:34 SaetZero wrote:
I'm still on the boat of 'keep 2 supply roaches, but revert them to 2 armor again.'
This.
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I agree that roaches could use a bit of a buff, but I think that putting them back to 1 supply would be way too much of a buff, instead I would say give them 2 base armor. Z vs anything was just plain stupid before the roach nerf. I mean back then I would have sworn the only units zerg had as overlords queens drones and roaches based on what people (all people even pros) produced
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I think Infested Terrans at T1 would be a good idea Some kind of Infested Stim on T2 + Speed buff overall. Then maybe Speed Upgrade on T3?
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Imo 2 armor, 2 supply roaches would be nice, also 1 supply but nerfed stats would also be cool. I kinda like the roach and zerg in general. Need some heavy nerf to the mass reaper strategy though that's way too obnoxious, even catching the terrible terrans off guard and killing off the reapers i can still lose to the massive marauder push or insane economy from the terran fast expansion 
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I'd rather nerf the roach (dps/hp) and make it 1 supply than buff the roach with 2 supply. Just to make the race feel like Zerg. Terran / Protoss got strong units, Zerg got many.
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Roach
Marauder
Stalker
Please compare these 3 units. Cost, build time, statistics.
.......
....
.......
And now tell me with a straight face that roaches should only cost 1 supply again.
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1 supply roaches were too good with the stats they had, but now the Z early game is way too limited and boring, while T/P have a myriad of options. Something needs to change, whether it's related to roaches, hydras or something else.
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On August 05 2010 02:18 Mooncat wrote:RoachMarauderStalkerPlease compare these 3 units. Cost, build time, statistics. ....... .... ....... And now tell me with a straight face that roaches should only cost 1 supply again.
To be fair, you should be comparing roaches with speed (and tunneling claws, I suppose) to marauders with stim and medivac support and concussive shells, as those are the most common in-game scenarios.
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On August 05 2010 02:18 Barrin wrote:
You should see my 1-base roach build that starts with 14pool 15 extractor 16queen/lord (a very standard build). I've been pushed with mass maurauders early and fended it off very easily. Stalkers? No problem. I just have so many roaches. Siege tanks? Cool. My roaches are almost ready to burrow underneath them. Only real counter I've seen is fast Immortals.
You can get some serious map control with burrowed roaches.
How do you even hit the marauders if Terran micro properly? Marauders own armored units. Now add stim and concussive shells and the roaches wont hit anything.
Burrow is good. Well at least untill Terran actually prepare for it by adding 1 unit to the army and 1 tower near the base , then it is more or less useless.
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With one fell swoop blizzard could turn zvz back into a fun matchup again and give zerg some much needed help against mech. I used to love zvz before the roach change but now it's a detestable randomfest.
I doubt they will, though. They constantly made terrible balancing decisions in WoW so I don't see them doing any better for SC2.
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On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D
Saracen would pretty much wipe metalopolis concrete with your face kid. Unless you've won something big, don't argue with your credentials around here.
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buffing Roaches is a great idea to help Z balance early game but in late game, ITS HUGE!!!
200/200 roaches/hydra has too much HP to be killed by T and with Z macro mechanics, reinforcement can come almost immediately cause P and T cant catch up with Z in late game.
there might be a slight twitch in Roach movement speed to make its stronger early on but thats all i can think of atm.
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Roach speed to T1 please as a very fast upgrade...
"Some" upgrade on T2 or 3 to make them viable in lategame but i honestly have problems to think of a "good" idea.
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On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit.
Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X.
But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you.
Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D
I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play.
Unfortunately I'm person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D
PS: Just to add something, before the Roach nerf, if my memory served me right, Zerg was behind in win% at diamond level in EU and US server, but was dominant in KR server. WOW, MASS ROACH = WIN.
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On August 05 2010 02 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 05 2010 02 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:24 Velr wrote:
Roach speed to T1 please (50/50 or 100/100).
This!!! It would be the soloution to every mentioned problem without getting back to roach/hydra all day long
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Putting the roach on 1 supply would seriously unbalance PvZ. I agree that blizzard over-nerfed roaches and infestors, but what can you do? Blizzard is hell bent on making Z as unpleasant to play as possible. IMO Hydralisks and mutalisks are next on the chopping block. Hydras are too effective vs P armies and mutas still don't get raped hard enough by Thors. I forsee hydras range getting reduced to 4, food upped to 3 and mutalisk cost upped to 200/200/2 per muta, just to make things fair.
On the plus side Ultralisks and Broodlords will get sooooooo many buffs that we'll be forced to mass sunkens until we hit tier 3.
Blizz doesn't want to buff zerg? Maybe let's try some T/P nerfs.
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Why not just make a Tier 2 upgrade that goes onto the Roach Warren which causes each Larva to spawn two roaches for 2 food instead of 1 roach for 2 food?
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Z has no unit diversity because most Z suck. Watch the pros. They DO use roaches. They DO use ultras. They DO use infestors.
Most Zs are bad and mass hydras.
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I don't see how 1 supply difference can make the Roach unusable.
8 supply = 100 minerals, 1 supply (the difference) = 12.5 minerals per roach.
So it goes from 75/25 to 88.5/25, also a 12.5% increase in cost. That may sound like a lot (not really imo) but I don't think it is much either: just as much as a single attack upgrade.
Surely the higher level players can keep up with the overlord count, and I just don't believe available larva would be a problem for those. I'd be okay with: 1 supply, but damage reduced to 14.
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On August 05 2010 02:21 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:18 Mooncat wrote:RoachMarauderStalkerPlease compare these 3 units. Cost, build time, statistics. ....... .... ....... And now tell me with a straight face that roaches should only cost 1 supply again. To be fair, you should be comparing roaches with speed (and tunneling claws, I suppose) to marauders with stim and medivac support and concussive shells, as those are the most common in-game scenarios.
This. Also, roaches can be kited by both units as roaches only have 3 range.
Don't forget stalker's blink ability which enables them to more strategies.
What does the roach have? Oh they can burrow and move. Which is pretty useless, as it can be shut down by a single unit : a detector.
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ultras are the most underused unit right now they're insanely powerful.
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Very good post op, seriously agree with your analysis of the problem.
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On August 05 2010 02:31 aseq wrote:
I don't see how 1 supply difference can make the Roach unusable.
8 supply = 100 minerals, 1 supply (the difference) = 12.5 minerals per roach.
So it goes from 75/25 to 88.5/25, also a 12.5% increase in cost. That may sound like a lot (not really imo) but I don't think it is much either: just as much as a single attack upgrade.
Surely the higher level players can keep up with the overlord count, and I just don't believe available larva would be a problem for those. I'd be okay with: 1 supply, but damage reduced to 14.
The problem is, that there are better 2 supply units for the zerg in the late game. Mutalisk anyone?
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On August 05 2010 02:18 Mooncat wrote:RoachMarauderStalkerPlease compare these 3 units. Cost, build time, statistics. ....... .... ....... And now tell me with a straight face that roaches should only cost 1 supply again.
Maruader beats the other two?.... (totally kidding) (sort of.)
But seriously on the topic of this issue, I didn't play Zerg when Roaches were 1 supply, but I did switch over to them a bit after the nerf, and am sitll playing Zerg now. I am not claiming to be the best player out there by any means, but we can all theorycraft right?
I think the Roach going back to 1 supply would fix a lot of Zerg issues, but would create new (old?) issues for the other races. A 1 supply Roach would make ZvZ not retarded, but would also break ZvT and ZvP.
I do feel as though they may have been overnerfed, simply because what the change was "Roach supply changed from 1 to 2." Yes the nerf was needed but a unit that was designed to be 1 supply was simply just changed to 2 supply with no other changes? That just seems a bit extreme? However, at the same time I don't really know what could be done to tweak it without breaking it. Maybe a slight speed increase before roach speed or a slight DPS improvement?
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I just want to point out that an armor nerf in exchange for less supply would make lings insanely good against roaches and have a negative effect on ZvZ.
That being said, something needs to be done to help the roach. I only ever use them in ZvP, because once you are fighting colossi everything else just melts. I think the biggest issue with them is that they are completely useless early game, and then in the late game they take up so much supply that you literally need to hand out free units left and right in order to free up supply for tier 3 units.
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On August 05 2010 02:18 Mooncat wrote:RoachMarauderStalkerPlease compare these 3 units. Cost, build time, statistics.
About same build time and cost (gas cost is most important).
Marauders:
HP 125
Range 6
Damage 10 + 10 (speed 1.5)
Got 2 upgrades right from barracks. Cheap ugprade for slowing attack. Gets stim to increase both speed and damage drastically, which also affects marines. Works really well with medivac for both drop and heal.
Roaches:
HP 145
Range 3
Damage 16 (speed 2)
Gets burrow and speed upgrade after lair. Burrow is negated in presence of stealth detection.
I cant see how even roaches compare to marauders. The low range is the most important difference, even though some people dont recognize how good long range is. Marauders also does more damage against most units, but with stim the marauder completely wins in term of damage.
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On August 05 2010 02:31 aseq wrote:
I don't see how 1 supply difference can make the Roach unusable.
8 supply = 100 minerals, 1 supply (the difference) = 12.5 minerals per roach.
So it goes from 75/25 to 88.5/25, also a 12.5% increase in cost. That may sound like a lot (not really imo) but I don't think it is much either: just as much as a single attack upgrade.
Surely the higher level players can keep up with the overlord count, and I just don't believe available larva would be a problem for those. I'd be okay with: 1 supply, but damage reduced to 14.
Thats over 18% more expensive.
If you don't see how this could break a unit then try playing with 180 Mineral Stalkers or 120 Mineral Marauders and then come back and say this did not make the unit much weaker. Oh and you really feel the Larva sometimes.
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Roaches can still counter mech. Keep in mind that with +1 armor upgraded, they can survive 4 tank shots instead of 3. If you burrow move them, I'm sure they can even take a few more rounds than that, and at that point they have to choose between shooting your roaches to stop them from unburrowing under their tanks or focusing on the zergling/hydra/whatever army behind it... and if they don't have detection, they're boned either way. They also made burrow movement much more effective since tunneling claws upgrades their health regeneration as well instead of needing the separate upgrade at t3.
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On August 05 2010 02:22 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D Saracen would pretty much wipe metalopolis concrete with your face kid. Unless you've won something big, don't argue with your credentials around here.
He may be better than me, but it doesn't mean his argument is right. As simple as that.
Post starter is a better player than probably any1 in this post, does it mean only his argument is correct, and others who doesn't agree with him are wrong?
Or do you agree with his brilliant idea that 'back then, mass roach = win'? :D
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On August 05 2010 02:24 Velr wrote:
Roach speed to T1 please as a very fast upgrade...
"Some" upgrade on T2 or 3 to make them viable in lategame but i honestly have problems to think of a "good" idea.
This please. Roaches are almost purely defensive units for me unit I get speed and creep spread.
For lategame viability I'd like to see the roach get +2 armor per upgrade rather than +1.
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On August 05 2010 02:31 aseq wrote:
I don't see how 1 supply difference can make the Roach unusable.
8 supply = 100 minerals, 1 supply (the difference) = 12.5 minerals per roach.
So it goes from 75/25 to 88.5/25, also a 12.5% increase in cost. That may sound like a lot (not really imo) but I don't think it is much either: just as much as a single attack upgrade.
Surely the higher level players can keep up with the overlord count, and I just don't believe available larva would be a problem for those. I'd be okay with: 1 supply, but damage reduced to 14.
Uhm The difference between a 200 army with 2 food roach and a 200 army with 1 food roach is huge.
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On August 05 2010 02:31 aseq wrote:
I don't see how 1 supply difference can make the Roach unusable.
8 supply = 100 minerals, 1 supply (the difference) = 12.5 minerals per roach.
So it goes from 75/25 to 88.5/25, also a 12.5% increase in cost. That may sound like a lot (not really imo) but I don't think it is much either: just as much as a single attack upgrade.
Surely the higher level players can keep up with the overlord count, and I just don't believe available larva would be a problem for those. I'd be okay with: 1 supply, but damage reduced to 14.
Look at it other way.
Every 4 roaches early game you need new overlord, which basically means additional 25 mineral per roach.
That's 2 drones, that you could have made otherwise of Overlord, and those two workers add in to your economy big time in long-term.
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On August 05 2010 02:32 ZlaSHeR wrote:
ultras are the most underused unit right now they're insanely powerful.
Maybe because Zergs can't get Ultras before Timing Push of Death?
Sure,fix one unit. It won't do much,You need to fix ENTIRE race.
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A 200/200 army of 1 food roaches is too difficult for any race to deal with. That is why it was nerfed and that is why it will never be changed back again. Your statements of "roaches were fine at 1 food" are simply incorrect.
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Returning roaches to 1 supply would make going mass roach the correct play in many match ups. Would take a lot off the creativity out of playing zerg, zerg can't afford that considering there isn't much creativity in playing zerg already
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Ultra's arent underused they are incredibly hard to tech to while holding the minimum 3 bases you need to actually afford them. If a zerg could put out ultras like terrans put out thors it would be a different story
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I can't really speak to roaches and TvZ, but I think that roaches are just fine in PvZ right now. PvZ is an incredibly balanced, dynamic, and fun matchup -- probably the best in the game. Roaches have their uses in the early, mid, and late game against protoss players. In pre-patch 12 late game PvZ's, allowing the zerg to field an army of a zillion 1 supply roaches was retarded. Now, a zerg has to get ultras to have viable late game tanking. I think that this is a good change that improves zerg unit diversity and makes for better gameplay in general.
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I really think moving them to 1 food and 0 armor with a +2 armor upgrade at lair tech is a totally reasonable change to make- althought im sure other minor balance tweaks would need to be made in response to this- this could be a good change.
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On August 05 2010 02:43 floor exercise wrote:
Ultra's arent underused they are incredibly hard to tech to while holding the minimum 3 bases you need to actual afford them. If a zerg could put out ultras like terrans put out thors it would be a different story
One Thor makes BIG difference. Is a good ground DPS and hard counters light air... While one Ultra... Well... Um... Takes 5 seconds to get killed when focused?
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On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D
PM'd.
By the way, if you didn't realize by now, here's why your posts suck:
1. You call the statements of high level diamond players "copper league ideas" while questioning whether they really are good players.
2. You say everyone who thinks 1 supply roach is unfair doesn't understand the race when it's actually you who doesn't understand the race and it's production capabilities.
3. I correct you and you get all defensive, flaunting your big shot 1800+ rating.
4. You call me a troll because you refuse to believe the people you just made fun of are better than you.
5. You call me a bad player because I point out that you're wrong.
6. You're still trying to act like a big shot even though you're terrible.
7. But you still try to save face, saying "oh, even if I'm worse than you my argument still stands. Roach at 1 supply is totally fair because the Terran and Protoss have units that can counter roaches."
8. That argument is terrible because it doesn't take into consideration ANYTHING besides a Zerg getting pure roaches and the other race's reaction to that. You don't consider how the races work and interact with each other. You just see "omg marauders beat roaches on paper, ez balance."
9. You overuse the word troll, and it's annoying as hell. I don't know what internet shithole you crawled out from, but please don't bring their crap here.
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give roach 1 pop, make them only 2/1 upgradable and in the ending with max 2/2
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On August 05 2010 02:37 koswinner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:22 FortuneSyn wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D Saracen would pretty much wipe metalopolis concrete with your face kid. Unless you've won something big, don't argue with your credentials around here. He may be better than me, but it doesn't mean his argument is right. As simple as that. Post starter is a better player than probably any1 in this post, does it mean only his argument is correct, and others who doesn't agree with him are wrong? Or do you agree with his brilliant idea that 'back then, mass roach = win'? :D
If you had actually read the thread, you would have seen "my brilliant idea."
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When roaches were 1 supply I'd have very difficulty in the beginning for me. But in the end I just did mass contain and rushed either immortals/VR's or I went collosi.
But I did see mass roaches like 95% of all PvZ games so it might've been a big problem for most players.
The 1 to 2 supply nerf was kinda huge and affected PvZ for most people hugely.
I remember someone rushed me and had like 30 roaches by the time I only had about 10 zealots and 5 or so stalkers (in less than 7 minutes).
Letting the roach get to 1 supply isn't a good idea but it would be nice if they buffed zerg in other areas because most Zerg are all doing the same thing (FE/speedlings/spine crawlers/macro up/tech/hydra/tech/ ultra's if needed late game).
While P and especially T has diverse options.
@Latham
P also has it's fine share of nerfs ? :D only like minor buffs like Z but T has had huge buffs(baracks stim/cs upgrades for example)/
It looks like blizzard buffed Terran to make them more appealing and since it's the Terran campaign release and not Z and P.
@Saracen
Yes it wouldn't hurt if roach got to 1 supply but then like you said stats should be nerfed a little bit what you also pointed out.
And I agree that you don't see many NP (at least I don't see them often if not none anymore) in almost any game.
I'm a P player and I should say that seriously of all races Z is the race that got nerfed most and T most buffed. But still you see the top Z pro's still beating most T pro's but the lower skilled players are having trouble because they aren't like the pro's :p and thus have a hard time in certain MU's (T mech?).
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On August 05 2010 02:48 shannn wrote:
When roaches were 1 supply I'd have very difficulty in the beginning for me. But in the end I just did mass contain and rushed either immortals/VR's or I went collosi.
But I did see mass roaches like 95% of all PvZ games so it might've been a big problem for most players.
The 1 to 2 supply nerf was kinda huge and affected PvZ for most people hugely.
I remember someone rushed me and had like 30 roaches by the time I only had about 10 zealots and 5 or so stalkers (in less than 7 minutes).
Letting the roach get to 1 supply isn't a good idea but it would be nice if they buffed zerg in other areas because most Zerg are all doing the same thing (FE/speedlings/spine crawlers/macro up/tech/hydra/tech/ ultra's if needed late game).
While P and especially T has diverse options.
agreed.good post.
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maybe the hydra into tier 1.5, 1 [pop and making it weaker and buffing roaches and making them tier 2 idea would solve some problems. Change game too much imo
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delete roaches make hydra tier 1 and nerf em abit add lurkers zerg problem solved
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On August 05 2010 02:45 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D PM'd.
Can we get Day9 to do ridiculous commentary for this? Remake of Chill vs CombatEx.
On a serious note, I would like to spectate this.
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On August 05 2010 02:53 graphene wrote:
maybe the hydra into tier 1.5, 1 [pop and making it weaker and buffing roaches and making them tier 2 idea would solve some problems. Change game too much imo
Hydra's are sooooo good dps and you want them to be t1.5 ? 
And roach that isn't used alot atm moved to t2 but buffing them? I think it might create more problems for Z than solve.
Although I am not a Z expert.
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On August 05 2010 02:48 shannn wrote:
I'm a P player and I should say that seriously of all races Z is the race that got nerfed most and T most buffed. But still you see the top Z pro's still beating most T pro's but the lower skilled players are having trouble because they aren't like the pro's :p and thus have a hard time in certain MU's (T mech?).
Maybe we're watching different games, but I see top Terrans beat Zergs much more often than the other way around. Especially in Korean matches (with the exception of Cool). I'll admit that I don't watch games on the Euro server, though...
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On August 05 2010 02:45 Saracen wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D PM'd. By the way, if you didn't realize by now, here's why your posts suck: 1. You call the statements of high level diamond players "copper league ideas" while questioning whether they really are good players. 2. You say everyone who thinks 1 supply roach is unfair doesn't understand the race when it's actually you who doesn't understand the race and it's production capabilities. 3. I correct you and you get all defensive, flaunting your big shot 1800+ rating. 4. You call me a troll because you refuse to believe the people you just made fun of are better than you. 5. You call me a bad player because I point out that you're wrong. 6. You're still trying to act like a big shot even though you're terrible. 7. But you still try to save face, saying "oh, even if I'm worse than you my argument still stands. Roach at 1 supply is totally fair because the Terran and Protoss have units that can counter roaches." 8. That argument is terrible because it doesn't take into consideration ANYTHING besides a Zerg getting pure roaches and the other race's reaction to that. You don't consider how the races work and interact with each other. You just see "omg marauders beat roaches on paper, ez balance." 9. You overuse the word troll, and it's annoying as hell. I don't know what internet shithole you crawled out from, but please don't bring their crap here.
kids lucky u stopped at 9 cuz you coulda gone on forever, i know i can ^^
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Hydras T1.5 Roach T2? I'll start playing Terran and make pure Hellion army vs Zerg and win everytime. Makes no sense.
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On August 05 2010 02:53 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:45 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D PM'd. Can we get Day9 to do ridiculous commentary for this? Remake of Chill vs CombatEx. On a serious note, I would like to spectate this.
+1
User was warned for this post
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On August 05 2010 02:59 tacrats wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2010 02:53 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:45 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D PM'd. Can we get Day9 to do ridiculous commentary for this? Remake of Chill vs CombatEx. On a serious note, I would like to spectate this. +1
+2
this would be awesome! 
User was warned for this post
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On August 05 2010 02:55 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:48 shannn wrote:
I'm a P player and I should say that seriously of all races Z is the race that got nerfed most and T most buffed. But still you see the top Z pro's still beating most T pro's but the lower skilled players are having trouble because they aren't like the pro's :p and thus have a hard time in certain MU's (T mech?). Maybe we're watching different games, but I see top Terrans beat Zergs much more often than the other way around. Especially in Korean matches (with the exception of Cool). I'll admit that I don't watch games on the Euro server, though...
Lately or since p2 ? As far as I watched tournaments / clanwars / streaming I've seen Z winning more vs T than the other way around. Or either I'm just watching just when Z wins and missing out on the T raping Z more often (on high level play ofc).
There was a thread which had stats of each race MU I don't know which section it was but need to look first for link.
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As I said before, Roach should be buffed a bit (but kept @ 2 supply)
- 10-20% base MS would be an idea
- +1 range
Or, rework it so it's 1.5 supply (Roach dealing 10-11 damage @ 1 supply, and either spawn one/egg or two/egg) with appropriate costs/armor/etc reworked, so it remains balanced from all PoVs
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Roaches are really ok at 2 food.
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I agree with the infestor changes
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On August 05 2010 02:45 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D PM'd. By the way, if you didn't realize by now, here's why your posts suck: 1. You call the statements of high level diamond players "copper league ideas" while questioning whether they really are good players. 2. You say everyone who thinks 1 supply roach is unfair doesn't understand the race when it's actually you who doesn't understand the race and it's production capabilities. 3. I correct you and you get all defensive, flaunting your big shot 1800+ rating. 4. You call me a troll because you refuse to believe the people you just made fun of are better than you. 5. You call me a bad player because I point out that you're wrong. 6. You're still trying to act like a big shot even though you're terrible. 7. But you still try to save face, saying "oh, even if I'm worse than you my argument still stands. Roach at 1 supply is totally fair because the Terran and Protoss have units that can counter roaches." 8. That argument is terrible because it doesn't take into consideration ANYTHING besides a Zerg getting pure roaches and the other race's reaction to that. You don't consider how the races work and interact with each other. You just see "omg marauders beat roaches on paper, ez balance." 9. You overuse the word troll, and it's annoying as hell. I don't know what internet shithole you crawled out from, but please don't bring their crap here.
1. I quoted players saying 'mass roach is all u need' or 'ultralist has always been strong'. Copper is of course an exagregation, although the logic could clearly be seen.
2. You are extrapolating too much, could you tell me your logic in why I laughed at certain ridiculous arguement, decribing them as have no serious understanding of the race = I say any1 who think 1 supply is unfair does not have a good understanding? Do I even say that I think 1 supply is perfectly fair?
3. You are correcting my joke - i.e. describing ridiculous ideas as copper league, plus saying every1 I laughed at is 1 light year better than me - it doesn't show that you don't understand usage of exagregation/joke.
4. I laughed at certain ideas, u laughed at me, which means you agree with those ideas, and concluding they are way better than me without any knowledge about me, thus I say u are trolling.
5. I call any1 who agree with those ideas I laughed at as 'bad players', obviously u did.
6. If u think 'terrible' is the correct description for a top 100 ranked player at that time, then go ahead. PS: I couldn't even imagine what will the decription be using a same standard on majority of the players, indeed some1 is acting big.
7. Seems you just didn't get my arguement or intentionally distorting. My initial arguement is that certain arguement about how mighty roaches were and how good Ultralists are since the beginning of the beta, the next one is just 'mass roaches means you won't survive mid game, not to mention reaching 200/200'. I am interested in the logic in deriving what u described as '"oh, even if I'm worse than you my argument still stands. Roach at 1 supply is totally fair because the Terran and Protoss have units that can counter roaches." Do I even say that 1 supply roaches are perfectly fine in the 1st place?
8. your arguement is terrible because if you take into consideration about possible reaction/dynamics of the game you'll find in most of the cases you won't end up with 200/200 roaches, and this is why any top level replay from top players didn't have this scenario occuring.
If this could rarely occur, then why could such a scenario be a valid arguement supporting the roach nerf? How different it is from saying 200/200 BCs are too much for P to handle?
9. Rofl, imagine as you like. :D
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On August 05 2010 03:01 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:59 tacrats wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2010 02:53 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:45 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D PM'd. Can we get Day9 to do ridiculous commentary for this? Remake of Chill vs CombatEx. On a serious note, I would like to spectate this. +1 +2 this would be awesome!
No. Let's get this thread back on track. Sorry for derailing it, OP.
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I really feel that the only changes needed to fix zerg are making roach 1 supply and giving NP it's unlimited duration again. Roach at 1 supply was never op, it had been nerfed more than enough already. Without it zerg lacks significant t1 presence.
You can't mess with roach hp because then different units will kill them in lesser numbers of hits and you'll throw balance off even more if thors two shotted roaches etc.
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On August 05 2010 02:07 Jameser wrote:
i don't think roaches need higher supply, but zerg players overall need to start using the infestor a lot more
I think this is true. Infestor is Lair unit, you can get one quick. I'm not a zerg player, but it seems zerg can use it a lot more.
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On August 05 2010 03:06 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:01 R0YAL wrote:On August 05 2010 02:59 tacrats wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2010 02:53 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:45 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D PM'd. Can we get Day9 to do ridiculous commentary for this? Remake of Chill vs CombatEx. On a serious note, I would like to spectate this. +1 +2 this would be awesome! No. Let's get this thread back on track. Sorry for derailing it, OP.
Noo no chickening out jk
About this problem, is it possible, to make Roaches cost 1.5 supply, as zerglings cost 0.5 supply? Its the middlest middle ground I can think of.
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Roaches are essentially destined to fail, both the opposing races T1.5 equivalents are direct counters with higher speed, better range, and much better upgrades. The major problem I have with Roaches is that I can't amass them easily because I am constantly supply capped when trying to do so. As a Zerg player I feel very limited, the only real variation Zerg have is what kind of opening to do.
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On August 05 2010 01:24 Piy wrote:
Ultralisks are ridiculously strong in the current build you know. The Roach nerf make holding off some early terran pressure hard, but that's a general problem not just an issue with the roach.
Go make some ultralisks, they just rape everything terran makes currently.
Neural Parasite is still devastating against Thor builds and harass.
I agree ZvZ sucks though
Zergs Hive Units are very strong, agreed.
But either you suffer too much early game or the game has already ended.
For Zerg it's pretty much; hopefully the opponent is too dumb to not end the game before i have Hive.
Zergs early Game options aren't very good, in pretty much all the Match-Ups.
Against Terran, even the Mid Game Units are nearly useless.
What needs or could be done is:
-Reduce Turret damage
-Reduce Thor Air damage output and/or range
+Change Roach supply cost back to 1
+Make Overlord Drop, Overlord Speed and Burrow upgrades more viable (cheaper or combine the ovi upgrades)
+Change the Nydus Worm (more hp, reduce build time, reduce unload time, make it able to build multiple exits or something like that)
+Change Infestors Neural Parasite (longer range, longer duration, reduce energy cost, reduce research time and cost or make it able to been cast when burrowed. These are just a few suggestions).
Those changes wouldn't make Zerg imbalanced, it would just ensure that Zerg can use the mechanics, that were designed for them.
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I'm a Zerg player and think Roaches are fine atm.
However, the nerf to Infestors is terrible, and needs to be rectified. This 12sec thing is unnecessary, either have a 12 sec limit or make it so that we don't need to upgrade the skill anymore.
Ultras are an excellent way to deal with mech, and I really do understand why they are in the tech tree so late. However, I feel that the spawn time on them needs to be significantly reduced.
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I actually think a 1.5 supply Roach with 2 per Larva would be a better idea. You could get more Roaches (because of 2 per larva) out in the early game to defend against the 500 possible things Terran can throw at you. And it would probably make a decent number of Roaches viable late game.
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On August 05 2010 02:14 Arakash wrote:
how about doubling the cost for roaches, make it 3 supply and let 2 spawn at the same time like zerglings?
the main issue i see this this is zerg could a nasty 1 base roach push which would be almost impossible to stop, because they would not be larva starved.
On August 05 2010 02:15 heynes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:34 SaetZero wrote:
I'm still on the boat of 'keep 2 supply roaches, but revert them to 2 armor again.'
This.
^I feel this idea would be the best way to start. think about the order of the orginal beta roach nerfs Regen-armor-armor-supply.
looking back that is the one of the worst orders in introspec. If they would have been regen ->supply->armor->armor would the armor nerfs have even needed to come?
Note:mid plat terran player take with a grain of salt.
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On August 05 2010 03:05 koswinner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:45 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D PM'd. By the way, if you didn't realize by now, here's why your posts suck: 1. You call the statements of high level diamond players "copper league ideas" while questioning whether they really are good players. 2. You say everyone who thinks 1 supply roach is unfair doesn't understand the race when it's actually you who doesn't understand the race and it's production capabilities. 3. I correct you and you get all defensive, flaunting your big shot 1800+ rating. 4. You call me a troll because you refuse to believe the people you just made fun of are better than you. 5. You call me a bad player because I point out that you're wrong. 6. You're still trying to act like a big shot even though you're terrible. 7. But you still try to save face, saying "oh, even if I'm worse than you my argument still stands. Roach at 1 supply is totally fair because the Terran and Protoss have units that can counter roaches." 8. That argument is terrible because it doesn't take into consideration ANYTHING besides a Zerg getting pure roaches and the other race's reaction to that. You don't consider how the races work and interact with each other. You just see "omg marauders beat roaches on paper, ez balance." 9. You overuse the word troll, and it's annoying as hell. I don't know what internet shithole you crawled out from, but please don't bring their crap here. 1. I quoted players saying 'mass roach is all u need' or 'ultralist has always been strong'. Copper is of course an exagregation, although the logic could clearly be seen. 2. You are extrapolating too much, could you tell me your logic in why I laughed at certain ridiculous arguement, decribing them as have no serious understanding of the race = I say any1 who think 1 supply is unfair does not have a good understanding? Do I even say that I think 1 supply is perfectly fair? 3. You are correcting my joke - i.e. describing ridiculous ideas as copper league, plus saying every1 I laughed at is 1 light year better than me - it doesn't show that you don't understand usage of exagregation/joke. 4. I laughed at certain ideas, u laughed at me, which means you agree with those ideas, and concluding they are way better than me without any knowledge about me, thus I say u are trolling. 5. I call any1 who agree with those ideas I laughed at as 'bad players', obviously u did. 6. If u think 'terrible' is the correct description for a top 100 ranked player at that time, then go ahead. PS: I couldn't even imagine what will the decription be using a same standard on majority of the players, indeed some1 is acting big. 7. Seems you just didn't get my arguement or intentionally distorting. My initial arguement is that certain arguement about how mighty roaches were and how good Ultralists are since the beginning of the beta, the next one is just 'mass roaches means you won't survive mid game, not to mention reaching 200/200'. I am interested in the logic in deriving what u described as '"oh, even if I'm worse than you my argument still stands. Roach at 1 supply is totally fair because the Terran and Protoss have units that can counter roaches." Do I even say that 1 supply roaches are perfectly fine in the 1st place? 8. your arguement is terrible because if you take into consideration about possible reaction/dynamics of the game you'll find in most of the cases you won't end up with 200/200 roaches, and this is why any top level replay from top players didn't have this scenario occuring. If this could rarely occur, then why could such a scenario be a valid arguement supporting the roach nerf? How different it is from saying 200/200 BCs are too much for P to handle? 9. Rofl, imagine as you like. :D
I really don't understand what you're saying, but thanks for taking it to PMs. Also, if you want to grudgematch, I'll make a blog for it, but let's not shit up this thread with it, okay?
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Also as stated, if you allow an Infestor to control your Thor's for longer than 5s you are failing, NP is basically a laser straight to the most important target, once you see that red tentacle destroy it. Against any good players I find using Infestor's NP to be either very difficult or impossible.
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I really liked the suggestion of making Roach Speed before lair and 50/50. Seems one of the issues with roaches is that they are only defensive before lair then at lair you have better options.
It seems kinda strange Zerg have all their cheap upgrades make higher when other races have them lowered(What point is there for a zerg post without zerg whine )
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On August 05 2010 03:12 Numy wrote:I really liked the suggestion of making Roach Speed before lair and 50/50. Seems one of the issues with roaches is that they are only defensive before lair then at lair you have better options. It seems kinda strange Zerg have all their cheap upgrades make higher when other races have them lowered(What point is there for a zerg post with zerg whine )
I like this idea as well, though I think maybe Protoss might have a hard time early game against this?
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Cool idea:
Lair Tech upgrade for zerglings that adds +10 HP and eliminates splash damage dealt to them !
- This is perfect way to deal with tank siege and collossi in late game but +10 hp could be overkill. Splash damage reduction/removal buff should be enough.
Something missing in zerg race when you compare it to terran and protoss. Needs more units which can create more tactics and opportunities i think. Im afraid we may not see it until next expension...
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That is a possibility although I think if you maybe make it more expensive it should hamper the zerg enough if he tries to mass them off 1 base that the protoss can get enough stalkers/zealots to fend it off with micro. Basically get speed for zerglings then lair or get speed for roaches then lair type situation.
I just think that allowing zerg more early game options would help balance most of the issues around zerg.
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Yeah, Blizzard just hates zerg. The thought process for terran and protoss is way different from zerg. If those two races has a unit that isn't used very much, they BUFF the unit. For zerg, if a unit isn't being used much, they nerf other units to force people to use it. Like when every hated ultras, they nerfed the ultralisk. And for NP, remember in the patch explanation that too many ultralisks were being mind-controlled? When the hell do u c an ultralisk in zvz? Yeah, as a zerg, I really hate zvz, and zvt. zvp is pretty fair imo. But after the roach nerf, I decided to never use roaches again, but I was forced to after everyone went mech. And even then, mech was hard to defend. Even mutas are bad against mech, i mean one thor takes down 5 mutas, Thats 500/500 to 300/200. My only way to win now is doing 16hatch, which will get raped if there's some early rush, but that's the life of a zerg.
I mean seriously, toss and terran has so many options in the beginning, zerg just has to settle with holding it off and hoping we can make a comeback. Terran can do marine-tank, thor drops, hellion harass, reapers, etc. Toss can do many builds and unit composition like 2gate, proxy 2gate, 4gate push, Forge FE. What the hell can zerg do? Baneling bust? GG Blizzard, u win, at least until the Korean pros start playing and we all will bitch about zerg and then u will have to change it, unless u want toss vs terran in every matchup.
U know what, since u hate zerg so much Blizzard, why don't u just get rid of zerg and make that fourth race with the ursadons and stuff playable instead.
And OP, your ideas are great, but how about this idea. Zerg get to have a maximum of 250 units, not 200, and if thats too imba, make it an upgrade
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On August 05 2010 03:11 Whole wrote:
I actually think a 1.5 supply Roach with 2 per Larva would be a better idea. You could get more Roaches (because of 2 per larva) out in the early game to defend against the 500 possible things Terran can throw at you. And it would probably make a decent number of Roaches viable late game.
I've hear this proposed before, but when you really think about it it would be imba as hell. One of zerg's worst limiting resources is the larvae count, hence why using spawn larvae is so important. Think about that first spawn larva from your queen. If you saved up resources and supply and devoted those larvae fully to roaches, you could get 8 roaches at about 3-4 mins in the game. That's worse than 1 supply roaches, imo.
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Give roaches +10 HP and BAM! They can now soak up 4 tank shots, ain't that sweet?
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I would like to see zerg get a new unit that could be thrown into the roach, ling, hydra mix. I'm thinking lurker but that's only because im not creative enough to think off an original idea. Come out with some new unit that the terran needs to counter so we can switch tech. I just want another option.
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ZvZ makes me puke. Hate my race because of that .....
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How about making burrow hatch tech?
Could give Z some interesting things to do with roach regen micro and baneling traps early game that could be a bit interesting and give Z more options. It wouldn't be that OP since it would delay lair tech which is something very risky both vs T (banshees) and vs P (hydras to deal with gate). Would force T to scan early game that could make the MU at the start just a little bit different. And P could be forced to get a robo for observer earlier then they'd want.
At first glance I do not think it would change to much so be considered OP.
Would be interesting to see a change there.
And infestor seriously need some love back regarding NP.
I'm also interested in giving roach their 2 armor back. Would make them more of a niche unit and actually diversify them a bit from all other tier 1 units. It could also change ZvZ a bit since mass ling owns roaches now. If roaches had 2 armor it could actually be viable to get roaches vs baneling ling.
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I'm amazed at how easily so many people dismiss people like Lz and Drewbie without logic or reason...
The one thing that should be done to roaches to make them more versatile and lucrative is this:
Make roaches start with burrowed movement when burrow is researched.
In addition:
Buff roach movement underground back to a reasonable speed.
Roaches are not the all powerful super swarm unit anymore - they are rather bland and quite frankly limited. Giving some reasonable incentive to use burrowed roaches and consequentially making them something to take into consideration (like lurkers were in BW) would give zerg back some flexibility and creativity they need.
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On August 05 2010 03:17 TTL wrote:
Cool idea:
Lair Tech upgrade for zerglings that adds +10 HP and eliminates splash damage dealt to them !
- This is perfect way to deal with tank siege and collossi in late game but +10 hp could be overkill. Splash damage reduction/removal buff should be enough.
Something missing in zerg race when you compare it to terran and protoss. Needs more units which can create more tactics and opportunities i think. Im afraid we may not see it until next expension...
Better idea: program zerg unit pathing to go in a straight line again instead of clumping.
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On August 05 2010 01:36 Saracen wrote:
My thoughts:
Roach: In retrospect, a 1 supply roach is pretty ridiculous. It forces the Terran/Protoss to go mass marauders/immortals because they really have no other way to deal with the threat of a mass 200/200 roach army lategame, which is insanely easy for the Zerg to switch into. That said, yes the roach being at 2 supply hurts a lot. I think the roach would be great if it was still 1 supply but had some stats lowered to match. Like maybe reduce its damage output and HP by a little.
Ultralisk: The only reason ultralisks seem to be so good right now is that they do splash damage and have insane DPS versus armored. They still melt super fast when focus fired. It's funny, whenever you go ultra/ling, the roles are reversed from BW: the lings do the tanking while the ultras deal the damage (ling damage is absolutely terrible in this game). If you remove ultralisk splash, then you're effectively making ultralisks worthless again.
Infestor: Yeah, the infestor used to kick ass. I remember when playing on LT ZvT would be just fine because you could get an infestor to NP the Thor to stop drops. Then they made you upgrade NP and increased the energy cost, which pretty much killed your timing window. But even then, mass NP with roach could be used lategame to stop giant mech armies to reasonable success. But they just kept on nerfing so that now, it's pretty much useless. It's one of my biggest gripes with Blizzard's design: they want the game to evolve into big flashy tier 3 units lategame (which is why they keep buffing the battlecruiser and the ultralisk), but they realize NP makes this pretty much useless. So they keep nerfing NP. I wish they could see that in the late game it's not the big flashy units but the combination of all the tools you have available that makes the game. If you want to see mass carriers, go play Fastest.
Pretty much this. Roaches if reduced to 1 supply need to get an little armor, health, or damage nerf while keeping the price the same.
I think ultralisks are fine, maybe make them negate all splash damage done to them if their big size doesn't do that already. Maybe I just don't play zerg so I don't know :/
Infestors need a longer dura for NP like 20 seconds or 30 seconds but not permanently like before. Maybe reduce the energy cost to 25 or 50 and make it use 3 energy every sec it's NPing a unit.
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On August 05 2010 03:26 Floophead_III wrote:
I'm amazed at how easily so many people dismiss people like Lz and Drewbie without logic or reason...
The one thing that should be done to roaches to make them more versatile and lucrative is this:
Make roaches start with burrowed movement when burrow is researched.
In addition:
Buff roach movement underground back to a reasonable speed.
Those are actually really good suggestions. Blizzard always said that lurkers aren't in because roaches+banelings overlap with them. However burrow is almost never used because it requires such a big investment and roach speed has been nerfed so hard. With burrow being viable option for roaches we could also see players getting burrow for roaches+banelings. Really sweet idea.
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On August 05 2010 03:26 Floophead_III wrote:
I'm amazed at how easily so many people dismiss people like Lz and Drewbie without logic or reason...
The one thing that should be done to roaches to make them more versatile and lucrative is this:
Make roaches start with burrowed movement when burrow is researched.
In addition:
Buff roach movement underground back to a reasonable speed.
Roaches are not the all powerful super swarm unit anymore - they are rather bland and quite frankly limited. Giving some reasonable incentive to use burrowed roaches and consequentially making them something to take into consideration (like lurkers were in BW) would give zerg back some flexibility and creativity they need.
This is a good idea. I don't think "lucrative" is the right word, though. I think Blizzard had intended for roach burrow movement to be used a lot, but it's just not worth the investment at the moment when you factor in gas cost and tech time.
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On August 05 2010 03:26 Floophead_III wrote:
I'm amazed at how easily so many people dismiss people like Lz and Drewbie without logic or reason...
The one thing that should be done to roaches to make them more versatile and lucrative is this:
Make roaches start with burrowed movement when burrow is researched.
In addition:
Buff roach movement underground back to a reasonable speed.
Roaches are not the all powerful super swarm unit anymore - they are rather bland and quite frankly limited. Giving some reasonable incentive to use burrowed roaches and consequentially making them something to take into consideration (like lurkers were in BW) would give zerg back some flexibility and creativity they need.
I really like these suggestions. As it is now detection will always be up before you tech everything that you need. And its just so expensive as well.
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yeah a unit that can move underground and heal fast is bad. dont use them. but realistically they are very good early game to defend hellion rushes or be aggressive vs zealot rushes. just most top tier players prefer getting a faster expo and barely hold off with lings/queens.
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Roaches are fine. They are still very useful vs Protoss players.
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I find the problem with roachs is not the supply. Its the speed. I think roach speed should be added already. For openings the roach is too slow to deal with hellion harass, and too slow to deal with reapers. So Zerg players just go for speedlings because there isn't anything else that can stop it.
I propose adding roach speed automatically, and changing the armour back to two.
Let me know what you think.
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I don't agree with everything the OP said, but the 2 supply nerf was a bit much. A couple of good ideas in this thread though. Making roach speed prelair sounds like a great idea to me. 2 supply/2 armour roaches also seems like a good idea, but I'd give stalkers +1 damage vs armour to prevent early game roach dominance in ZvP(hopefully this might make toss players cry less about marauders and tanks too).
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Best solution would be to give roach 2 armor again.
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zvz as it is now where you can actually stop a ling + bling push(although it is hard) is way, way WAY preferred over the bullshit that was roach at 1 supply. I can go on about how shitty zvz was back then, and definitely more so than it is today, but I'll stop there.
I do like your suggestion about the change to the ultra though. Would like to try it out anyways, it does seem to work without destroying the game.
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1 supply roaches would be nice, but I don't think it would fix ZvT. I'd rather impose an air range nerf on the thor, damage nerf vs light for marauders and and damage nerf for seige tanks. Terran needs significant nerfs that won't break TvP.
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On August 05 2010 03:26 Floophead_III wrote:
Make roaches start with burrowed movement when burrow is researched.
This would be awesome, right now Roaches are your generic pew pew units which is overshadowed by the Hydra. Giving the Roach start with burrowed movement would be awesome, giving the unit more diversity and flavor.
The burrow speed buff would be nice too.
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I think if roaches had only 1 supply it would be fine but the only real issue I have with roaches are their ridiculously high hp. They can literally just sit through a storm with their regen upgrade and be practically untouched a couple seconds later. If anything, a nerf to roaches should've involved their durability (which is retardedly high for such a low tier unit) NOT their supply cost.
Ultras are fine in the current state of the game right now, I feel. They come pretty late, but once they do, they're pretty darn strong. Speaking as a mid-diamond Protoss, if ultras hit the field and I didn't scout or react in time with enough immortals and/or archons, I am absolutely fucked. The momentum they give you is pretty powerful and they're quite strong by themselves.
NP does need a buff, however much I hate it. The ninja nerf to 12 seconds was just unwarranted, although infinite duration was a bit too much. Increase duration to like 30 seconds or something and NP should be fine.
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Just add some upgrades to the creep. Speed, regen, manaregen or something. Make the zerg more about creep management.
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I think you made pretty good suggestions.
I totally agree for your analyse concerning the lack of diversity for zerg gameplay. Also, Zerg is much more "readable" race than Terran.
The zerg gameplay and macro is far less fun to.
I agree on your Roach suggestions. I think 1 suply is needed and 1 armor is not over powered.
Your suggestion for Ultralisk are interesting
Concerning the Infestor I think the time limite of mind control should be removed
I also think that burrow could research on the Hatcherie
By the way, I used to be a zerg player since SC1, BW and Beta phase 1. Since phase 2 I am Random player. Only top platinium player.
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I disagree with roach being 1 supply. They do need some kind of buff as they just aren't worth the investment currently like speedling/baneling are. Reduce their armor. Swap speed and make an armor upgrade instead.
This would give them good viability in every match up. Vs Zerg the speed would help to kite the banelings more and make it more drastic if one blows up near them. Vs Terran it would provide resistance until they can get marauders out. Vs Protoss it would give a good counter to the aggressive 4-gate all-in strat that's plaguing the match up currently.
Also, remove Infestation Pit requirement for Hive
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On August 05 2010 04:01 Appendix wrote:
Just add some upgrades to the creep. Speed, regen, manaregen or something. Make the zerg more about creep management.
I always thought a good idea would be if the Zerg units could "consume" creep tumors to regen hp or energy. It would add another interesting dynamic to the race because of course the creep tumor would disappear when consumed so the player would have to choose whether they want to halt advancing creep momentarily.
I totally agree for your analyse concerning the lack of diversity for zerg gameplay. Also, Zerg is much more "readable" race than Terran.
Zerg can techswitch on a level that T and P cannot so i disagree.
I propose adding roach speed automatically, and changing the armour back to two.
That would give Protoss a really hard time in the early game
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I think we only need 2 things to make it much more interesting:
Roach to 2 base armor
Burrow to be researched at hatchery level
These may overpower zerg vs protoss though.
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On August 05 2010 04:01 Appendix wrote:
Just add some upgrades to the creep. Speed, regen, manaregen or something. Make the zerg more about creep management.
creep reduces splash dmg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Zerglings were awesome in SC:BW. I would like to see them fair a little bit better, of course that probably won't make ZvZ better.
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I think roaches should be 1.5 supply. Idra suggested the same thing.
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Absolutely not. Fast roaches are hard enough to defend as Protoss.
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lol, no they arent, wtf bo are u playing make 3 stalkers :D
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2010 02:45 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D
[quote]
PM'd.
By the way, if you didn't realize by now, here's why your posts suck:
1. You call the statements of high level diamond players "copper league ideas" while questioning whether they really are good players.
2. You say everyone who thinks 1 supply roach is unfair doesn't understand the race when it's actually you who doesn't understand the race and it's production capabilities.
3. I correct you and you get all defensive, flaunting your big shot 1800+ rating.
4. You call me a troll because you refuse to believe the people you just made fun of are better than you.
5. You call me a bad player because I point out that you're wrong.
6. You're still trying to act like a big shot even though you're terrible.
7. But you still try to save face, saying "oh, even if I'm worse than you my argument still stands. Roach at 1 supply is totally fair because the Terran and Protoss have units that can counter roaches."
8. That argument is terrible because it doesn't take into consideration ANYTHING besides a Zerg getting pure roaches and the other race's reaction to that. You don't consider how the races work and interact with each other. You just see "omg marauders beat roaches on paper, ez balance."
9. You overuse the word troll, and it's annoying as hell. I don't know what internet shithole you crawled out from, but please don't bring their crap here.
Come on, he probably thirteen
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[ Show nested quote +I totally agree for your analyse concerning the lack of diversity for zerg gameplay. Also, Zerg is much more "readable" race than Terran. Zerg can techswitch on a level that T and P cannot so i disagree. Show nested quote + I propose adding roach speed automatically, and changing the armour back to two. That would give Protoss a really hard time in the early game
maybe i am just a stupid noob(high chance) but Zerg may beable to "tech switch" faster and harder than the other two races but that does not mean they are harder to read. Spire kinda screams MUTA!! more so than say a starport with a techlab which could mean a number of different things. Also Zerg seems to get pigeon holed in to a few strats more so than toss and terran do atm.
If the speed + armor would unbalance PvZ early game, adding +2 armor as a 50/50 upgrade(like concussion shells) might slow down zerg alittle but still have the same general effect on the ZvT match up.
Note: mid plat terran player take with a grain of salt.
EDIT: What ever happened to that big thread in phase 1 of beta about removing the unholy trinty?
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I agree with the OP. Roaches just seem like a lame hydra atm and they need something different about them that will make them worthy of getting. Making them masseable again would be ideal.
Regarding your post on ultralisks, I would take it even further and just say get rid of the hive tech all together and make everything available at lair. Too many times we like to say SC and SC2 are not the same game, and well this is the case here. Getting to hive to get ultras/broodlords takes too much time, risk and money compared to the other races.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2010 04:31 Teogamer wrote:![[image loading]](http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif)
I loled so hard my boss came over to my computer to see what i was doing
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I think that they should keep neural parasite at infinite, but then reduce the range of it. because if you have a bunch of thors, and neural parasite has like what 8~9 range? how do you stop that? unless snipe? or emp? but lower level games are much more difficult because they dont use as many spells, so if they would decide to use neural parasite, and the other play doesnt even get close to techin to ghosts, then what happens?
I agree on the roach nerf, they were overpowered in Phase 1, i could never stop them without, 1 sentry to use forcefield on ramp, and wait for my first immortal.
Thanks for the great argument,
Your friend,
DreaM[wD]
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On August 05 2010 04:39 DreaM[wD] wrote:I think that they should keep neural parasite at infinite, but then reduce the range of it. because if you have a bunch of thors, and neural parasite has like what 8~9 range? how do you stop that? unless snipe? or emp? but lower level games are much more difficult because they dont use as many spells, so if they would decide to use neural parasite, and the other play doesnt even get close to techin to ghosts, then what happens? I agree on the roach nerf, they were overpowered in Phase 1, i could never stop them without, 1 sentry to use forcefield on ramp, and wait for my first immortal. Thanks for the great argument, Your friend, DreaM[wD]
Siege tanks or marauders with focus fire. On the flip side, how do you stop a bunch of thors with repairing SCVs and hellion/tank support without NP pre-hive? The only solution right now seems to be massing more units
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On August 05 2010 01:27 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:24 Piy wrote:
Ultralisks are ridiculously strong in the current build you know. The Roach nerf make holding off some early terran pressure hard, but that's a general problem not just an issue with the roach.
Go make some ultralisks, they just rape everything terran makes currently.
Neural Parasite is still devastating against Thor builds and harass.
I agree ZvZ sucks though Sir, you didint read my Ultralisk suggestion of getting splash removed and putting it together on the hive upgrade with armor. That way it wouldnt cut throu with anything, and would just work as a tank. I cant agree on Neural Parasite, if you can get a mind control off, any decent player will snipe your infestor with sieged tanks or stimpacked marine/marauder anyway in 3s
No No No
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I very much agree that roaches are not strong enough in their current state. I believe Z needs a stronger unit early on, because you get under so much pressure
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On August 05 2010 01:36 Saracen wrote:
My thoughts:
Roach: In retrospect, a 1 supply roach is pretty ridiculous. It forces the Terran/Protoss to go mass marauders/immortals because they really have no other way to deal with the threat of a mass 200/200 roach army lategame, which is insanely easy for the Zerg to switch into. That said, yes the roach being at 2 supply hurts a lot. I think the roach would be great if it was still 1 supply but had some stats lowered to match. Like maybe reduce its damage output and HP by a little.
Oh no, Zerg making a unit comp that forces Protoss or Terran into a comp that counters it rather than them just building any unit at random? How terrible that would be.
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On August 05 2010 01:20 Defrag wrote:
Let me ask you: how often do you see roaches being used in high-lvl games now?
Im sure you will agree that almost never
Stopped reading here because it was clear you had no idea what you were talking about.
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@ "Infested Terran isnt used", In a 2v2 with my friend, TZvPZ, i had like 7 Infesters with max energy (long period of silence), and my ally went Tank Hellion, roasted ground units. The P on the other team had like 20 phenixes (dont ask) and was lifting my friends tanks, so i spawned a shitstorm of IT's and killed them all.
well thats rare, but it was funny.
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On August 05 2010 04:49 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:20 Defrag wrote:
Let me ask you: how often do you see roaches being used in high-lvl games now?
Im sure you will agree that almost never Stopped reading here because it was clear you had no idea what you were talking about.
If you didint read, why bother responding with crappy post and looking like another worthless troll? Maybe it's just games Im seeing and watching replays, maybe im just bad: please enlighten me and show the way instead of being elitist prick.
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On August 05 2010 04:49 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:20 Defrag wrote:
Let me ask you: how often do you see roaches being used in high-lvl games now?
Im sure you will agree that almost never Stopped reading here because it was clear you had no idea what you were talking about.
We have to make roaches, we don't have anything else to suck up damage, they're just doing a poor job at it. Reverting back to the initial 2 armor would make it a lot better. I'd be fine with only that. I think it's reasonable enough.
Edit: And a little bonus HP regen on creep would be nice.
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I think the problem with Roaches isn't the fact that they're 2 supply, but that they were nerfed over and over again trying to balance them as 1 supply units before Blizz finally gave up on it, and all of those nerfs remained after the supply increase.
It also kinda sucks that Zerg has no 1 supply units, not necessarily for balance reasons but simply because they don't feel very much like "the swarm" when my Marines outnumber them.
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I was a top 100 US zerg in p2 of the beta. I have since the rise of the 3rax reaper abandoned zerg all together in favor of protoss. Now although I managed a 66% win rate as zerg with release (was upwards to 75% until 3rax reaper became popular), I have probably a abysmal win rate overall (tons of custom games). Out of 20 games vs 3rax reaper I have managed two wins. I'm done with zerg and am sticking with protoss for the next few days (30 in 5 currently on my second account as protoss, god its so easy). Zerg is just too hard to play in comparison to the other two races. You're forced to fast expand or you lose, you're forced to defend vs a thousand different timing windows or you lose. Each one is hard to defend against and requires a different tech path/starting build/ optimal unit composition and spectacular positioning (Creep etc). Zerg is broken. In the US ladder there was only 3 zergs in the top 25 at the end of phase 2. Thats B.S Blizzard. also the neural parasite nerf was obnoxious. I cannot believe they are not doing anything about this blatant imbalance. Terran macro mechanics are too easy. IMO they should require you to cast mule at the mineral field at the specific mineral field in which the specific command center resides. Much like having to separate queens into separate control groups. Toss has warpgates and has to flipscreens, Zerg has to swap between 3 4 5 6 queens in the late game. And terran just has to rally to their opponents base, micro their heart out with easy to micro and efficient MNM balls and just mash 4 ddddddddddddddd, 5eeeeeeeeeeeeee, and bam 15 marauders and bam 10 mules, and bam ez win. Or they'll just tank marine push you, or they'll just 3rax reaper to 8 rax marauder you, or theyll banshee cloak you, or theyll hellion viking, or theyll hellion fast expand, or theyll hellion marauder all in... It's ridiculous. None of those can be scouted efficiently either. It's just so frustrating that I can just go play protoss or terran and do so much better, but with zerg I'm forced to work with the necessity for absolute precision to win games.
Now if zerg can live to the lategame (Past the 99999billion all in terran styles) Ultralisks and broodlords are well balanced and take the appropriate time to get too. Ultras are very strong and might need to be toned down a bit, but I feel that zerg's early game is just far too hard especially against terran. (Protoss ez mode but I feel colossus midgame push from a good protoss is so efficient and hard to stop as with the appropriate timing attack off 10gate forge does loads of damage while slowing the chance for zerg to get any hive units and you're forced to use expensive corruptors or do or die micro and hope that your roaches can do the damage they need too without all the hydras getting insta roasted.)
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2 initial armor would be meh. it seems way to strong. i would just like the roach changed to 1.5 food personally, maybe 2 spawn out of 1 egg. the philosophical design of the roaches is what really makes it weird. it's a tier 1 unit that can do well against pretty much any ground unit in the game. that's problematic when it's so massable and cheap. not really sure what to do with the unit. now they made it not as easily mass able, but the strength of the roach is how cheap and effective it is for it's cost.
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On August 05 2010 04:56 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 04:49 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:On August 05 2010 01:20 Defrag wrote:
Let me ask you: how often do you see roaches being used in high-lvl games now?
Im sure you will agree that almost never Stopped reading here because it was clear you had no idea what you were talking about. If you didint read, why bother responding with crappy post and looking like another worthless troll? Maybe it's just games Im seeing and watching replays, maybe im just bad: please enlighten me and show the way instead of being elitist prick.
I see roaches used daily by the top zergs in north america, I skimmed the rest of your post but didn't read it because your main point is false. The entire OP is based around a statement that is false. Plus use the word troll right
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130403
want a few more specific comments?
Your comment about ZvZ is true in the lwoer play but 1 base roach is becoming more popular to STOP the kind of baneling shenanigans that you're ranting about.
1supply roach doesnt work unless you nerf the shit out of it and then it becomes a useless unit that is 1 supply wow very good.
Ultras on lower tech is laughable as they're so fucking strong at the moment. Basically please watch more truly high level games before you comment on this or use replays to support your evidence.
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Ok, after having read all of your suggestion, I found many good suggestions.
Perhaps 1 supply would be to over powered for early and late game (the 200/200 roach argument).
So, lets see the available options (according to me)
1) Roache upgrades before lair.
2) Burrowed movement if you research Burrow. (Burrow before lair ?)
3) Reverting back to the initial 2 armor
4) Change the psy limit for Zerg and keep roach on 2 supply.
I like 1) and 2)
What do you think guys ?
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I don't care that they are 2 food, I hate how long and how much the speed boost costs. Marauder slow is 50/50 the roach speed is 100/100, marauder slow takes 60 time and the roach speed take 110. Roaches lose to all their counterparts (Marauder and stalker) and they cant chase down a reaper or hellion to save their life. Either make fast standard or the research faster and cheaper (on par with concussive shell). Hell, you could make the roach more expensive (like 100/25 if you make this change) and I wouldn't care. Just something other than speedlings being necessary in pretty big numbers in almost every single game you play. Any other race and you could choose to build 1 or 2 basic units and move on.
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YOu can't have burrow before lair as that gives you a cloaked unit before most of the detection is available in the game, the ability to burrow and have your roaches disappear before it's even possible to have an observer out and forcing terrans to make an engineering bay as one of their first buildings and then not have enough units to defend against the roaches is just too powerful.
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I'm sorry but roaches being 1 supply was just too strong late game.
1.5 supply any1?
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What if roaches got +2 armor and slightly more regen. This way PvZ wouldn't be ling fests and roaches would be able to fight that reaper/marine stuff better. I think toss might need slight compensation for this like +1/+1 vs armored on stalkers like it used to be for upgrades. I don't know if that would hurt other matchups but atm stalkers are retarded weak vs maruaders, zerg has problems with terran and roaches probably are too weak for a 2 supply unit. I think this would fix a lot of things.
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wtf? ultras are the best units in the game, after their buffs.
play roach+ultra plus antiair if needed lategame and you wont have a problem anymore.
I usually play roaches all the time, because they give you freedom to expand safely and with the third base up, you have enough economy to support an ultraheavyarmy.
And how could you make roaches 1supply without screwing ZvP?
I think the real problem in the ZvT matchup is thors antiair attack. The range is just sick and the splash makes mutas just useless in my opinion. I loved to play muta baneling when the tank/marinepush was so popular in the end of phase two but terran changed back to one single thor wich shuts down every harras you can do with mutas.
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The units Zerg has right now are just fine as far as I'm concerned, as a zerg player. The only problem that is apparent to me is a lack of diversity - and if you want tot alk abotu beating a dead horse, just bring up THAT subject. It would be nice to see the roach returned a bit to its original role, which was supposed to be tanking damage/regeneration, but at one supply it would absolutely be OP.
Really the thing that Z needs right now is MORE units that are DIFFERENT from what we have right now. And that will come with HoTS... it just sucks that we have to wait years for it to happen.
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1.5 supply only works if they hatch 2 at a time and with the zerg larva mechanic this would make roaches disgustingly powerful with the ability to hatch them at a ridiculous rate.
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so um OP do you have any balance testing experience or are a game balance designer and have done rigorous study in game design/theory? I'm sure Blizzard knows what they are doing, as they have teams for this kind of thing, that are getting paid no doubt.
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I don't think 2 food roaches affect Z early on as much as it does to late game. In the early game, you just need to push more overlords out, which will delay your roaches a tad. In the late game, it can really mess up your unit composition because you have "unworthy" 2-food units. However, you still see roaches in the end game because they are excellent tanks and damage absorbers.
So I'm not really sure.
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People focusing too much on proving roach suggestions wrong rather than providing their own solutions. I don't think roaches should be 1 supply and ultralisks are very strong but do come out late (especially considering you need 3 bases to really support production). I don't really see these as problems.
Infestors on the other hand are definitely an easy target for some zerg buffs. Zerg are missing viable openers (as the OP says) and I think some changes to early game to give more options would go a long way too fixing zerg. I really like the idea of tier 1 infestors, leaving NP as a t2 upgrade (probably should change it's duration back). Infested terrans give some more t1 anti air and fungal growth is a very strong spell, but there is a very high gas cost for the tech and unit so I don't see it as too OP, easily comparable to sentries at least.
I hope Blizzard either make changes very very soon, or leave it a month as there are at least 3 big LAN events in August that could be ruined by fresh patches.
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On August 05 2010 05:06 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
YOu can't have burrow before lair as that gives you a cloaked unit before most of the detection is available in the game, the ability to burrow and have your roaches disappear before it's even possible to have an observer out and forcing terrans to make an engineering bay as one of their first buildings and then not have enough units to defend against the roaches is just too powerful.
Mmm It is true if Roach get Burrowed movement with Burrow research.
In BW burrow was before lair.
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On August 05 2010 05:08 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
1.5 supply only works if they hatch 2 at a time and with the zerg larva mechanic this would make roaches disgustingly powerful with the ability to hatch them at a ridiculous rate.
Why do two have to come out of one? They could just come out as 1.5 supply put of one.
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On August 05 2010 05:01 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 04:56 Defrag wrote:On August 05 2010 04:49 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:On August 05 2010 01:20 Defrag wrote:
Let me ask you: how often do you see roaches being used in high-lvl games now?
Im sure you will agree that almost never Stopped reading here because it was clear you had no idea what you were talking about. If you didint read, why bother responding with crappy post and looking like another worthless troll? Maybe it's just games Im seeing and watching replays, maybe im just bad: please enlighten me and show the way instead of being elitist prick. I see roaches used daily by the top zergs in north america, I skimmed the rest of your post but didn't read it because your main point is false. The entire OP is based around a statement that is false. Plus use the word troll right http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130403want a few more specific comments? Your comment about ZvZ is true in the lwoer play but 1 base roach is becoming more popular to STOP the kind of baneling shenanigans that you're ranting about. 1supply roach doesnt work unless you nerf the shit out of it and then it becomes a useless unit that is 1 supply wow very good. Ultras on lower tech is laughable as they're so fucking strong at the moment. Basically please watch more truly high level games before you comment on this or use replays to support your evidence.
One base roach doesnt do the job on any map with a bigger choke that one that can be blocked by 4 roaches. If you want we can try, np. Also on any other map besides desert oasis speedling/bling player will just put down expo as soon as he sees roaches and 5 crawlers in it. There you go with the game.
Why wouldnt 1 supply roach work at all? It was 1 supply before patch 12 and close to noone was whining about roaches at that point since it was standard to counter them easy after armor/regeneration nerfs.
Yeah, thats why I proposed a change ( nerf ) of Ultras, read the f$%@*()($ post and then write seriously.
Show me the games with roach usage please by top players especially where zerg doesnt get steam rolled, I would be delighted. Pretty please.
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On August 05 2010 05:08 HaGuN wrote:
so um OP do you have any balance testing experience or are a game balance designer and have done rigorous study in game design/theory? I'm sure Blizzard knows what they are doing, as they have teams for this kind of thing, that are getting paid no doubt.
I love when people stay stupid things like this. Blizzard couldn't balance a beach ball on a tennis racket. Go play WoW Arena for a season. I trust the opinions of high levels players way more than Blizzard but I do take it with a grain of salt.
The current map pool might have a lot to do with why Zerg seems to suffer vs T. I really feel like certain maps punish P/Z too much. In fact Xel Naga Caverns is broken for PvZ. Unit diversity is an issue as well.
ANother option would be make tanks over fire again. I really think thats the best/easiest solution, and to compensate their damage can be upped.
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Seen Idra and Sen using roaches ALOT in their tournaments... and it works for them, ofc they uses zerglings, and hydras and mutas as well. so...? Want me to find those...?
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WoW cited as balance evidence? Ugh...
Race balance is fine, the map pool just needs to be better. More maps like Desert Oasis, but with less vulnerable natural.
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1 supply roaches will end with PvZ late game being
he has more units than you could ever hope to kill, and theres no way youre going to win if he gets 3 bases
Im 100% in favor of the change
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On August 05 2010 05:08 phyre112 wrote:
The units Zerg has right now are just fine as far as I'm concerned, as a zerg player. The only problem that is apparent to me is a lack of diversity - and if you want tot alk abotu beating a dead horse, just bring up THAT subject. It would be nice to see the roach returned a bit to its original role, which was supposed to be tanking damage/regeneration, but at one supply it would absolutely be OP.
Really the thing that Z needs right now is MORE units that are DIFFERENT from what we have right now. And that will come with HoTS... it just sucks that we have to wait years for it to happen.
Agreed, right now any numbers we're punching in here is nothing but theory crafting. Changing supply numbers might be nice but I'd like to see more drastic changes like giving them Burrowed Movement at the start or increasing their HP regen like in their earlier states.
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Wasn't the supply nerf really something to fix ZvZ, which was an awful roach on roach mirror (but it just turned it into speedling/baneling)
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The roach nerf was much needed and praised by many non Z and Z players alike. Therefore I didn't read your thread and have nothing constructive to say, other than if they lowered it down to 1 food, it will just need putting back up to 2 after a few weeks.
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On August 05 2010 05:25 arthur wrote:
The roach nerf was much needed and praised by many non Z and Z players alike. Therefore I didn't read your thread and have nothing constructive to say, other than if they lowered it down to 1 food, it will just need putting back up to 2 after a few weeks.
The thread I linked after patch12 with the change went live says otherwise about opinions of player pool.
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On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Why wouldnt 1 supply roach work at all? It was 1 supply before patch 12 and close to noone was whining about roaches at that point since it was standard to counter them easy after armor/regeneration nerfs.
Are you serious? Because if so you just weren't paying attention 1 supply roaches were rather stupidly overpowered kind of why Idra went fast expo hatch first into mass roaches every game even on steppes of war.
On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Show me the games with roach usage please by top players especially where zerg doesnt get steam rolled, I would be delighted. Pretty please.
Oh and heres a replay too lazy to find you more but it happened last night SLush vs LzGamer is that a high enough level game for you?
http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/slush-vs-lzgamer-lost-temple
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On August 05 2010 05:29 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Why wouldnt 1 supply roach work at all? It was 1 supply before patch 12 and close to noone was whining about roaches at that point since it was standard to counter them easy after armor/regeneration nerfs.
Are you serious? Because if so you just weren't paying attention 1 supply roaches were rather stupidly overpowered kind of why Idra went fast expo hatch first into mass roaches every game even on steppes of war. Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Show me the games with roach usage please by top players especially where zerg doesnt get steam rolled, I would be delighted. Pretty please.
Oh and heres a replay too lazy to find you more but it happened last night SLush vs LzGamer is that a high enough level game for you? http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/suggy-vs-lzgamer-lost-temple
That was such a good game, too. Definitely check it out.
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On August 05 2010 05:29 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Why wouldnt 1 supply roach work at all? It was 1 supply before patch 12 and close to noone was whining about roaches at that point since it was standard to counter them easy after armor/regeneration nerfs.
Are you serious? Because if so you just weren't paying attention 1 supply roaches were rather stupidly overpowered kind of why Idra went fast expo hatch first into mass roaches every game even on steppes of war. Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Show me the games with roach usage please by top players especially where zerg doesnt get steam rolled, I would be delighted. Pretty please.
Oh and heres a replay too lazy to find you more but it happened last night SLush vs LzGamer is that a high enough level game for you? http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/suggy-vs-lzgamer-lost-temple
Do you have the rep of game 3 on Metalopolis? I'm thinking of using it in the weekly SC2 column.
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People say "It is not about the units..." but it is entirely about the units. All the jargon the BW community has made up over the years (e.g. macro and micro) is just that, jargon. Fundamentally, RTS games revolve around units and economy. RTS games are played with balancing growing your economy versus growing your number of units. This is still the skeleton behind Starcraft 2.
I switched to Terran from Zerg because I was not having fun (even though I could win games). I asked myself, "Why is this? Why am I not having fun? Why do I seem to be so... on edge?"
The OP nailed the problem with there being very few build options for the Zerg. Though, the OP's solution of bringing roach supply back to 1 is not a good idea at all. The solution is to put the Zerg race back into the oven so it can be properly baked. Being the last race, and despite the changes made to Zerg during the beta, the Zerg race has not fully been 'cooked' yet.
My experience with the Zerg has been all my games being very 'samey' with very little viable differences in how to play. The other races seem to have all these 'cool toys' to harass you with. While you have speedlings and mutas, which are fun to zip around the map due to their speed, I feel that Zerg is the most immobile race in the game. Since Starcraft 2 is so fast and so much relies on speed, being able to move around is extremely important.
Some say that creep makes Zerg 'more mobile', but it is the opposite. As TLO said, a unit like hydralisks is not very good off the creep. The definition of 'mobile' means being able to move around quickly and being confined to creep, no matter how far you grow it out, still means you are not being mobile.
Playing as Terran now, I absolutely love their mobility. I can do drops extremely quickly (Zerg dropships are the slowest in the game). The hellions are the fastest unit in the game outside of speedlings (who get roasted to hellion fire). Compare the cost and you have one hellion for the price of four zerglings. Which can kill harvestors faster and more successful? Which ages better as the game goes on? Other Terran mobility is the stimmed bio-mass who can zip up ramps and really run up to your opponent without warning. Vikings are pretty fast and can land anywhere, even on ledges. Reapers are an extremely mobile unit who can take out a mineral line very fast. Best of all, Terrans have flying buildings. What is more mobile than that? (The myth of Terran immobility is not because Zerg players have not realized 'Zerg mobility', but that most noobs are Terrans who have a bad habit of turtling with siege tanks and walled off bases.)
Protoss also have awesome mobility. Stalkers can blink onto ledges making them a pain to opponents. All gateway units can warp in at any pylon, even across the map! Warp Prism allows warping in from an air unit!
I think uninteresting units and lack of mobility are Zerg's biggest problems. To those that say, "Stop comparing units, it isn't about units," these people are trying to sound smart but aren't. It is about units because that is what the races fight with in the game.
Zerg can win games; that is not the point. The basic skeleton of a race is already with Zerg. Zerg has their anti-air units, their air units, their ground units, and so on. But Blizzard has only made the effort to make the basic skeleton. There needs to be more options. There needs to be more mobility for the Zerg. Imagine if Terran didn't have reapers, banshees, flying buildings, transforming Vikings, hellions and ghosts. Could the race still win games? Most certainly. But there would be far less options and far less mobility. The race would not be as much fun to play. Imagine taking away the warp gates and warp prism for the Protoss. The race would still win games, but the race would not be as fun to play.
This is where the Zerg is today. The race has the basic skeleton there. But that is all. When playing Zerg, I felt always on 'edge' as if screwing up even making an extra drone would cost me a game (because it could). It was also extremely hard to be aggressive early (i.e. lack of mobility) because it was difficult to keep up making a decent economy and Zerg units move so slow (except for speedlings and mutalisks).
It isn't that the Zerg race is 'unbalanced' or 'broken' so much as it is 'unfinished'. The race is, by far, the least fun to play out of all three races and that, alone, should be alarming to Blizzard.
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You said slush vs Lz, but you linked suggy vs Lz.
(didn't catch the suggy game)
If it is the first one,+ Show Spoiler +
what is supposed to say? That it is possible for terran to throw a game away?
He just stayed on MMM the whole game with some vikings wich he did absolutely nothing with, and let zerg come back after that early hellion harass.
He never ever bothered getting the xel'naga towers.
I don't see what this game is supposed to point out, except that you shouldn't spam MMM only for a whole game.
I do think that Lz is a high-level player, I just think he played that game out very poorly compared to what is possible/how he normally plays
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On August 05 2010 05:32 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:29 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Why wouldnt 1 supply roach work at all? It was 1 supply before patch 12 and close to noone was whining about roaches at that point since it was standard to counter them easy after armor/regeneration nerfs.
Are you serious? Because if so you just weren't paying attention 1 supply roaches were rather stupidly overpowered kind of why Idra went fast expo hatch first into mass roaches every game even on steppes of war. On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Show me the games with roach usage please by top players especially where zerg doesnt get steam rolled, I would be delighted. Pretty please.
Oh and heres a replay too lazy to find you more but it happened last night SLush vs LzGamer is that a high enough level game for you? http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/suggy-vs-lzgamer-lost-temple Do you have the rep of game 3 on Metalopolis? I'm thinking of using it in the weekly SC2 column.
http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/slush-vs-lzgamer-metalopolis
There you go, uploaded game 2 as well just in case
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On August 05 2010 05:35 Icx wrote:
You said slush vs Lz, but you linked suggy vs Lz.
(didn't catch the suggy game)
If it is the first one, what is supposed to say? That it is possible for terran to throw a game away?
He just stayed on MMM the whole game with some vikings wich he did absolutely nothing with, and let zerg come back after that early hellion harass.
He never ever bothered getting the xel'naga towers.
I don't see what this game is supposed to point out, except that you shouldn't spam MMM only for a whole game.
I do think that Lz is a high-level player, I just think he played that game out very poorly compared to what is possible/how he normally plays
Oops thats SLush I typod it on the website heres the right link
http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/slush-vs-lzgamer-lost-temple
and thats game 3 not game 1, the one I Linked was him breaking deflecting reapers with 3 roaches just 3, then breaking his mech push in the middle with mass roach and 1 ultra
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On August 05 2010 05:33 Macavity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People say "It is not about the units..." but it is entirely about the units. All the jargon the BW community has made up over the years (e.g. macro and micro) is just that, jargon. Fundamentally, RTS games revolve around units and economy. RTS games are played with balancing growing your economy versus growing your number of units. This is still the skeleton behind Starcraft 2.
I switched to Terran from Zerg because I was not having fun (even though I could win games). I asked myself, "Why is this? Why am I not having fun? Why do I seem to be so... on edge?"
The OP nailed the problem with there being very few build options for the Zerg. Though, the OP's solution of bringing roach supply back to 1 is not a good idea at all. The solution is to put the Zerg race back into the oven so it can be properly baked. Being the last race, and despite the changes made to Zerg during the beta, the Zerg race has not fully been 'cooked' yet.
My experience with the Zerg has been all my games being very 'samey' with very little viable differences in how to play. The other races seem to have all these 'cool toys' to harass you with. While you have speedlings and mutas, which are fun to zip around the map due to their speed, I feel that Zerg is the most immobile race in the game. Since Starcraft 2 is so fast and so much relies on speed, being able to move around is extremely important.
Some say that creep makes Zerg 'more mobile', but it is the opposite. As TLO said, a unit like hydralisks is not very good off the creep. The definition of 'mobile' means being able to move around quickly and being confined to creep, no matter how far you grow it out, still means you are not being mobile.
Playing as Terran now, I absolutely love their mobility. I can do drops extremely quickly (Zerg dropships are the slowest in the game). The hellions are the fastest unit in the game outside of speedlings (who get roasted to hellion fire). Compare the cost and you have one hellion for the price of four zerglings. Which can kill harvestors faster and more successful? Which ages better as the game goes on? Other Terran mobility is the stimmed bio-mass who can zip up ramps and really run up to your opponent without warning. Vikings are pretty fast and can land anywhere, even on ledges. Reapers are an extremely mobile unit who can take out a mineral line very fast. Best of all, Terrans have flying buildings. What is more mobile than that? (The myth of Terran immobility is not because Zerg players have not realized 'Zerg mobility', but that most noobs are Terrans who have a bad habit of turtling with siege tanks and walled off bases.)
Protoss also have awesome mobility. Stalkers can blink onto ledges making them a pain to opponents. All gateway units can warp in at any pylon, even across the map! Warp Prism allows warping in from an air unit!
I think uninteresting units and lack of mobility are Zerg's biggest problems. To those that say, "Stop comparing units, it isn't about units," these people are trying to sound smart but aren't. It is about units because that is what the races fight with in the game.
Zerg can win games; that is not the point. The basic skeleton of a race is already with Zerg. Zerg has their anti-air units, their air units, their ground units, and so on. But Blizzard has only made the effort to make the basic skeleton. There needs to be more options. There needs to be more mobility for the Zerg. Imagine if Terran didn't have reapers, banshees, flying buildings, transforming Vikings, hellions and ghosts. Could the race still win games? Most certainly. But there would be far less options and far less mobility. The race would not be as much fun to play. Imagine taking away the warp gates and warp prism for the Protoss. The race would still win games, but the race would not be as fun to play.
This is where the Zerg is today. The race has the basic skeleton there. But that is all. When playing Zerg, I felt always on 'edge' as if screwing up even making an extra drone would cost me a game (because it could). It was also extremely hard to be aggressive early (i.e. lack of mobility) because it was difficult to keep up making a decent economy and Zerg units move so slow (except for speedlings and mutalisks).
It isn't that the Zerg race is 'unbalanced' or 'broken' so much as it is 'unfinished'. The race is, by far, the least fun to play out of all three races and that, alone, should be alarming to Blizzard.
I disagree about Zerg immobility, but I do agree that Terran and Protoss have the ability to be extremely mobile, depending on how you choose to play. So many people talk about Terran immobility when the race itself is actually extremely mobile, it's just that their playstyle isn't.
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all in all zerg is a joke atm.
i dun think 1supply roach alone will change much about it. (1,5 supply might really be a good thing..)
anyway, the whole race is a mess, u dont have ANY viable opener except the decision whether u go 1 base or instant 2 base..(or all-in / 6 pool.. yea nice..) afterwards all u do is scout and wait which kind of harass u have to defend against and try to mass units to overrun your enemy. furthermore its pretty hard to bunker yourself as a zerg, especially since they are still incredibly weak against invisible units AND air-units early on. its not like i lose everygame.. im fine.. BUT ITS BORING. and frustrating.
plus u dont have many options on harassment. yea u can runby some lings if your opponent is stupid enough to open his choke/ramp. and yea later on there is the ultra slow nydus or drop option. still, thats about it against any type of defense player.
besides zerg has NOT ONE surprising or gamechanging harass unit and the only long range/splash units are sooo high in tech tree and expensive that it takes ages to get em. they also dont have any invisible units, at least none which can attack and u dont have any unit that can jump/walk on/over cliffs. its almost impossible for a NON-diamond-200+apm-player to harass your enemys base EFFECTIVELY, expecially against a bunkering terran. and dont gimme that infestor crap, they where nice once, but since the nerf all u can do is spam fungal (which is, yes, useful sometimes) before they get sniped..
and the funniest thing is, once u and your enemy are at 200supply and it comes to battle, it almost doesnt matter which unit combination you have, u will certainly lose the big battle in a ridicoulous manner, at least if your foe toss/terra insnt retarded, and even if u can resupply faster than the other races u still will lose big parts of your main or at least some expos during to the follow up of your foe,... which makes me lose like, A LOT.
all in all, the swarm keeps to frustrate and disappoint me everyday. (props to idra for reigning with the totally defective and boring swarm.)
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On August 05 2010 05:33 Macavity wrote:
It isn't that the Zerg race is 'unbalanced' or 'broken' so much as it is 'unfinished'. The race is, by far, the least fun to play out of all three races and that, alone, should be alarming to Blizzard.
i totally agree. good post dude.
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i would like to see them changed a bit, like melee range and more armor/hp
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On August 05 2010 05:37 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:33 Macavity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People say "It is not about the units..." but it is entirely about the units. All the jargon the BW community has made up over the years (e.g. macro and micro) is just that, jargon. Fundamentally, RTS games revolve around units and economy. RTS games are played with balancing growing your economy versus growing your number of units. This is still the skeleton behind Starcraft 2.
I switched to Terran from Zerg because I was not having fun (even though I could win games). I asked myself, "Why is this? Why am I not having fun? Why do I seem to be so... on edge?"
The OP nailed the problem with there being very few build options for the Zerg. Though, the OP's solution of bringing roach supply back to 1 is not a good idea at all. The solution is to put the Zerg race back into the oven so it can be properly baked. Being the last race, and despite the changes made to Zerg during the beta, the Zerg race has not fully been 'cooked' yet.
My experience with the Zerg has been all my games being very 'samey' with very little viable differences in how to play. The other races seem to have all these 'cool toys' to harass you with. While you have speedlings and mutas, which are fun to zip around the map due to their speed, I feel that Zerg is the most immobile race in the game. Since Starcraft 2 is so fast and so much relies on speed, being able to move around is extremely important.
Some say that creep makes Zerg 'more mobile', but it is the opposite. As TLO said, a unit like hydralisks is not very good off the creep. The definition of 'mobile' means being able to move around quickly and being confined to creep, no matter how far you grow it out, still means you are not being mobile.
Playing as Terran now, I absolutely love their mobility. I can do drops extremely quickly (Zerg dropships are the slowest in the game). The hellions are the fastest unit in the game outside of speedlings (who get roasted to hellion fire). Compare the cost and you have one hellion for the price of four zerglings. Which can kill harvestors faster and more successful? Which ages better as the game goes on? Other Terran mobility is the stimmed bio-mass who can zip up ramps and really run up to your opponent without warning. Vikings are pretty fast and can land anywhere, even on ledges. Reapers are an extremely mobile unit who can take out a mineral line very fast. Best of all, Terrans have flying buildings. What is more mobile than that? (The myth of Terran immobility is not because Zerg players have not realized 'Zerg mobility', but that most noobs are Terrans who have a bad habit of turtling with siege tanks and walled off bases.)
Protoss also have awesome mobility. Stalkers can blink onto ledges making them a pain to opponents. All gateway units can warp in at any pylon, even across the map! Warp Prism allows warping in from an air unit!
I think uninteresting units and lack of mobility are Zerg's biggest problems. To those that say, "Stop comparing units, it isn't about units," these people are trying to sound smart but aren't. It is about units because that is what the races fight with in the game.
Zerg can win games; that is not the point. The basic skeleton of a race is already with Zerg. Zerg has their anti-air units, their air units, their ground units, and so on. But Blizzard has only made the effort to make the basic skeleton. There needs to be more options. There needs to be more mobility for the Zerg. Imagine if Terran didn't have reapers, banshees, flying buildings, transforming Vikings, hellions and ghosts. Could the race still win games? Most certainly. But there would be far less options and far less mobility. The race would not be as much fun to play. Imagine taking away the warp gates and warp prism for the Protoss. The race would still win games, but the race would not be as fun to play.
This is where the Zerg is today. The race has the basic skeleton there. But that is all. When playing Zerg, I felt always on 'edge' as if screwing up even making an extra drone would cost me a game (because it could). It was also extremely hard to be aggressive early (i.e. lack of mobility) because it was difficult to keep up making a decent economy and Zerg units move so slow (except for speedlings and mutalisks).
It isn't that the Zerg race is 'unbalanced' or 'broken' so much as it is 'unfinished'. The race is, by far, the least fun to play out of all three races and that, alone, should be alarming to Blizzard. I disagree about Zerg immobility, but I do agree that Terran and Protoss have the ability to be extremely mobile, depending on how you choose to play. So many people talk about Terran immobility when the race itself is actually extremely mobile, it's just that their playstyle isn't.
I think the problem is not so much a lack of zerg mobility, as a lack of zerg's ability to deal with the new and devastating protoss and terran mobility. Reapers, colossi, medivacs, blink stalkers, hellions - all nasty and devastating units for zerg to deal with. Zerg's mobile solutions? Lings, speed upgraded roaches or banelings, mutalisks, nydus, drop. Notice how only 1 of those is before lair tech. Notice how reapers and hellions are before lair tech options are finished (and in some cases medivacs and even blink stalkers too!). Zerg just doesn't have early mobility anymore, and that really really hurts vs terran. Midgame/lategame I think zerg mobility is fine, if not superior. They just are often are hindered in some way from early game.
Now, in BW zerg often had no mobility early on too, and terran had a mobile attack force. However, the solution was pretty universal - sunkens. Sunkens could fend off any bio aggression, could keep vultures away, and did so 100% of the time. The best part - sunkens fit into any zerg opening/strategy. They were well suited to zerg's T2 aggression play, since they didn't take gas or supply.
In SC2 the universal answer is speedlings, to an extent (speedlings + crawlers vs upgraded/large numbers of hellions/reapers, with queens as well). However, speedlings do not fit into many builds. Speedlings are also not economical since they take larva, supply, and gas for the tech. Therefore, you get the problem of zerg early game limitation.
The solutions are really to nerf reapers (since they only really muck up TvZ, that's fine to do). Zerg can't fight reapers right now without opening speedling. This needs to be fixed.
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On August 05 2010 01:24 Piy wrote:
Ultralisks are ridiculously strong in the current build you know. The Roach nerf make holding off some early terran pressure hard, but that's a general problem not just an issue with the roach.
Go make some ultralisks, they just rape everything terran makes currently.
Neural Parasite is still devastating against Thor builds and harass.
I agree ZvZ sucks though
ultralisk vs stimmed marines
guess what? the marines win.
no, ultras do not rape everything terran makes currently.
neural parasite is no devastating against thor builds and harass. you can keep that thor a couple seconds which will give you the edge for 12 seconds, either the enemy has the option to pull back, OR they'll just keep on since you're just gonna afford 2-3 neural parasites at a time and then not be able to use it for a REALLY long time thanks to the current cost.
ZvZ does suck.
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Is it really that case that everyone thinks Z is the most boring race to play of all? I don't personally think so, but it seems many do
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On August 05 2010 05:36 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:35 Icx wrote:
You said slush vs Lz, but you linked suggy vs Lz.
(didn't catch the suggy game)
If it is the first one, what is supposed to say? That it is possible for terran to throw a game away?
He just stayed on MMM the whole game with some vikings wich he did absolutely nothing with, and let zerg come back after that early hellion harass.
He never ever bothered getting the xel'naga towers.
I don't see what this game is supposed to point out, except that you shouldn't spam MMM only for a whole game.
I do think that Lz is a high-level player, I just think he played that game out very poorly compared to what is possible/how he normally plays Oops thats SLush I typod it on the website heres the right link http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/slush-vs-lzgamer-lost-templeand thats game 3 not game 1, the one I Linked was him breaking deflecting reapers with 3 roaches just 3, then breaking his mech push in the middle with mass roach and 1 ultra
Correct me if Im wrong, but LzGamer is known for going mass rax-reaper? :D Or was it Satini ;/ Seems like a pretty obvious choice to counter a specfic player.
Also no offence, but we are discussing mid game pushes by Terran, and besides repeaer harras Lz didint attack once whole game.
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On August 05 2010 06:12 lindn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:24 Piy wrote:
Ultralisks are ridiculously strong in the current build you know. The Roach nerf make holding off some early terran pressure hard, but that's a general problem not just an issue with the roach.
Go make some ultralisks, they just rape everything terran makes currently.
Neural Parasite is still devastating against Thor builds and harass.
I agree ZvZ sucks though ultralisk vs stimmed marines guess what? the marines win.
This is just not true. Even with stim, the damage marines do against ultras(assuming requisite +2 armour upgrade) is so low that they need at least a 10:1 ratio to stand a chance, and the damage taken from stim actually improves the efficacy of the ultra's splash.
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On August 05 2010 06:20 Jenslyn87 wrote:
Is it really that case that everyone thinks Z is the most boring race to play of all? I don't personally think so, but it seems many do
The race doesnt feel complete at all.
Both protoss and terran got shiny new toys to use that make them more powerful and more exciting to play while still keeping their core racial identity intact. The zerg is like that disfigured person everyone tries to say is all right but know really isn't.
Zerg don't feel like zerg, and Zerg didn't really get any new unit of value that makes their gameplay more exciting. Broodlord is just a better guardian, Roach is an uninspiring unit, Baneling is just a ground based scourge, infestor has been nerfed 10 ways to sunday and it's just a worse defiler.
When I look at the Zerg race I don't see the creativity that went into the other races. Zerg lost that swarmy feel on top of losing anything unique that made them fun to play.
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On August 05 2010 06:20 Jenslyn87 wrote:
Is it really that case that everyone thinks Z is the most boring race to play of all? I don't personally think so, but it seems many do
Zerg is super exciting to play imo. Because every move you make can lose you the game. Reach up to scratch your face? OVER! Have a friend login notification pop up for 2 second and lose focus? OVER!
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why are 90% of the posters in this thread terran players
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On August 05 2010 06:29 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:36 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:On August 05 2010 05:35 Icx wrote:
You said slush vs Lz, but you linked suggy vs Lz.
(didn't catch the suggy game)
If it is the first one, what is supposed to say? That it is possible for terran to throw a game away?
He just stayed on MMM the whole game with some vikings wich he did absolutely nothing with, and let zerg come back after that early hellion harass.
He never ever bothered getting the xel'naga towers.
I don't see what this game is supposed to point out, except that you shouldn't spam MMM only for a whole game.
I do think that Lz is a high-level player, I just think he played that game out very poorly compared to what is possible/how he normally plays Oops thats SLush I typod it on the website heres the right link http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/slush-vs-lzgamer-lost-templeand thats game 3 not game 1, the one I Linked was him breaking deflecting reapers with 3 roaches just 3, then breaking his mech push in the middle with mass roach and 1 ultra Correct me if Im wrong, but LzGamer is known for going mass rax-reaper? :D Or was it Satini ;/ Seems like a pretty obvious choice to counter a specfic player. Also no offence, but we are discussing mid game pushes by Terran, and besides repeaer harras Lz didint attack once whole game.
Roach/ling is often used to stop Terran 1 base attacks. An example VOD would be Cool vs Maka in the 17173.com World Tournament (it's kind of outdated, but it's recent enough to be relevant, I think). Linky. The point is roaches are still viable in the early game, though not as strong before, and of course the Zerg lategame suffers because of the nerf as well. But that doesn't mean they're not used.
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Unless I'm sorely mistaken, the Zerg seem to be missing a spellcaster: Protoss - Sentry, Templar;
Terran - Ghost, Raven; Zerg - Infestor, ?
Queen is the Zerg's macro mechanic. Overlord/Overseer ?
Another Zerg spellcaster would bring greater "life" to Zerg play. Unfortunately it isn't going to happen, at least until the next expansion anyway.
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On August 05 2010 01:31 Lz wrote:Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad
In a vacuum, you're totally right. Ultralisks are a "strong unit". However, their cost and tech requirement means that you need to survive to a certain point in the game with a certain amount of expansions to make full use of this strong unit. This is very difficult compared to the other races in the current build of the game, with Zerg being forced to play defensively in ZvT especially; how many high level ZvT games involve the Z player desperately trying to defend against Hellions with Queens, Spine Crawlers, and Speedlings, while scrambling to tech and make use of some late-game units while T leisurely chooses one of like 20 insanely powerful build orders and walks in to pressure Z? A lot, I would contest. And how many are the other way around, with the Z applying constant pressure? Not many. This in and of itself should say something about the power (or lack thereof) of Zerg's early game. I'm not saying that it's definitely Roaches, because I'm not sure what it is. That is my personal opinion, but there are probably a few changes that could fix it. Either way, something has to be done, because any high level player would have to agree that Zerg currently has THE worst early game in SC2, no contest.
PS Being at a game doesn't justify making cheesy, blanket 1-liner statements. That type of attitude is really annoying.
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On August 05 2010 06:49 Mensab wrote:
Unless I'm sorely mistaken, the Zerg seem to be missing a spellcaster: Protoss - Sentry, Templar;
Terran - Ghost, Raven; Zerg - Infestor, ?
Zerg has the Overseer and also the Corrupter for a few spells between them. Plus Queens can also be very strong in the late game when paired with Ultralisks with some good Transfusion usage.
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On August 05 2010 05:15 Pinstripes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:08 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
1.5 supply only works if they hatch 2 at a time and with the zerg larva mechanic this would make roaches disgustingly powerful with the ability to hatch them at a ridiculous rate. Why do two have to come out of one? They could just come out as 1.5 supply put of one.
for lack of a better term it would be stupid
lings are 1 supply a pair for a reason
could you see hatching out .5 lings 1 at a time?
no.
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They only fix the roach needs to keep balance with the rest of the game imo would to be to bring the armor back up to 2. The fact that zealots rape roachs so hard off that stupid 4 gate speed build protoss have been doing, its ridiculous. Bring down to 1 supply would changed the late game to much and iam not sure how i feel about making them 1.5 supply or they pop out in twos.
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Roaches are still great units. Don't know what you're talking about. I wish they weren't countered by so many units, but the most I could really ask for would be the roach getting it's 2 armor back, since the only reason it was dropped to 1 was because they were trying to balance the 1 supply roach.
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On August 05 2010 01:32 Floophead_III wrote:
A 200/200 roach army was almost unstoppable. The roach change was REQUIRED!
Unless, you know, the other player got a single air unit.
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On August 05 2010 01:49 AcOrP wrote:
I think swap roach with hydra make hydra a bit weaker and cheaper make roach stronger and a bit more expensive.
This way there will be more balance. pre Lair zerg has lings/roaches no long range or AA.No other race has so late range/AA unit.
And so early this 2 supply mean more overlords which in early game are not that cheap.
Hydra upgrades may still be lair tech so they don't become overpowered too early.
This will give zerg a safe build from which they can transition to other builds.Basicly this won't change much late game, but will give zerg better chance in early and mid game to be aggressive,becouse now all in is the only way to be aggressive.
I think this is a pretty good idea actually. Then terran/protoss will probably whine about void/banshee cheese being totally useless vs zerg though. Hydra would need to be significantly weaker though or pvz wouldn't be very fair.
On August 05 2010 02:53 Fadetowhite wrote:
delete roaches make hydra tier 1 and nerf em abit add lurkers zerg problem solved
If only...
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On August 05 2010 07:03 Headshot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:32 Floophead_III wrote:
A 200/200 roach army was almost unstoppable. The roach change was REQUIRED! Unless, you know, the other player got a single air unit.
200/200 roach hydra with 1 supply roaches was broken beyond imagination
This fact came to me the game i decided not to immortal push(when roaches were always opened with) and late game 200 200 fight with 6-7 colossus he had so many units even that many colossus couldnt kill them
no zerg is gonna go mass roaches without a few hydras
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As zerg players like to whine they have not much diversity (which is actually true imo) and boring units, I think making roach 1 supply is bad idea. I don't really know if it would make them imba or not, but I think the other ways to fix them are way better. They make roaches more fun to use and don't make them so strong amassed like they were when they were 1 supply.
My favourite solutions are: (ONLY 1 AT TIME!)
1. Give them burrow movement automatically at lair tech.
This would make zergs use burrow movement way more. Roaches would still remain relatively weak (1 armor) but they have ability to regain health quite fast and move underground which would make roaches beautiful guerilla unit.(if used more - and this allows for it)
2. Give them 2 armor back and faster regen when burrowed.
I like it less because it will keep roaches straightforward unit like it is now, but rather without making them imba. I think zergs won't be able to spam them because of 2 supplyness. They will get a bit stronger just like they need but nothing gigantic.
About infestors: yea, clearly NP should get buff. One of the factors should be changed at time
1. Make it cost less mana (75 or 50 back like it was before?)
It would still require to research 150/150 and it would still last 12 seconds, so it wouldnt make it imba, just more viable
2. Remove research or make it 50/50
It would still take a lot of mana (100 like now) and would last very short so it wouldnt make it imba, just more viable
3. Make it last infinitely
I like it least because it doesnt make it any more viable vs thor or tank drops and that's what zergs struggle with the most on kulas and LT. (yea I know it's counterable but with big effort, while terran just drops his unit).
If we apply only one change, then the NP wouldnt go back to be omg imba.
If we fix roaches and infestors, then ultras dont need to be changed. Because in midgame zergs stand a chance vs pushes. (well, they still stand now, but yea zergs have some problems with massive terran midgame pushes while not having ultras). If blizz doesnt plan to fix roaches nor infestors at all, then I think your idea would be quite good.
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Maybe make spine crawlers cheaper? Would help wall in the mineral lines a bit faster and discourage the extensive hellion harass we experience.
I don't think zerg needs a massive buff, we just need something to give us a little more breathing room. Lacking a wall off, and having to expend a drone to create static D, maybe a 75 mineral spine crawler would be appropriate? 50?
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On August 05 2010 07:25 Sieziggy wrote:
Maybe make spine crawlers cheaper? Would help wall in the mineral lines a bit faster and discourage the extensive hellion harass we experience.
I don't think zerg needs a massive buff, we just need something to give us a little more breathing room. Lacking a wall off, and having to expend a drone to create static D, maybe a 75 mineral spine crawler would be appropriate? 50?
A decrease in build time would be much more reasonable. Right now the problem isn't so much the cost as the fact that they're hard to get down in time to respond to your opponent.
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roaches were crazy on 1 food, but why not nerf them in another way? damage? hp? armor?
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What if... burrow were tier 1?
It would be pretty strong, but it would allow for some more generalist/safer openings.
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On August 05 2010 07:30 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 07:25 Sieziggy wrote:
Maybe make spine crawlers cheaper? Would help wall in the mineral lines a bit faster and discourage the extensive hellion harass we experience.
I don't think zerg needs a massive buff, we just need something to give us a little more breathing room. Lacking a wall off, and having to expend a drone to create static D, maybe a 75 mineral spine crawler would be appropriate? 50? A decrease in build time would be much more reasonable. Right now the problem isn't so much the cost as the fact that they're hard to get down in time to respond to your opponent.
True, minerals usually aren't too big of an issue. Either way, some better defensive options would negate a lot of the harassment that plagues early zerg games. The only reason I proposed cost is because 300 min worth of spine crawlers is equivalent to a significant force. I think much cheaper / easily deployed crawlers would put us more in line with the terran / protos' very powerful wall offs.
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Burrow for cliffwalking please. At lease then you might have a chance to get close enough to certain units to damage them even if stealth detectors ruin your day. Just make it require burrow + another upgrade per unit that burrow + moves.
Meanwhile in the land of realism.
1 or even 1.5(if it could be) food roach would be nice. The armor change OP had is a nice idea.
The only thing i find to be troubling is use of the worm or ovie sacs. Any help to get those more play able would be very nice and might even promote a some other play styles.
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Cliffwalking would be massively OP.
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I have been waiting quite a while for exactly two things to happen to the roach.
1.) Make it 1 supply
2.) Nerf its damage so a 200/200 supply roach army does not put out enough dps to constest properly mixed armies.
This would do several things. Give zerg a slightly safer opening against zealot pressure and such since you don't have to produce an overlord like every 20 seconds. ZvZ was at least somewhat diverse with the 1 supply roach. Opens up a cheaper investment into anti hellion play.
It would push the role of the roach to a tank which zerg so desperately needs to survive the midgame. In brood war your whole army tanked because you just had a ton of stuff. As this is not the case in sc2, a unit must be introduced into this role. Hydralisks and ultralisks are both high dps units. Zerglings are mostly just a mineral sink and perform somewhat as a tank. By introducing a decent tank, unit compositions should diversify. Hydra roach will be viable again. Roachling will function like a hydraling ball in brood war. Roach ultralisk would be affective against mech. Burrowed roach play will be explored more thoroughly. Roach + roach + more roach won't be able to do proper DPS in the face of a huge army.
edit: I feel like this is a straight forward answer to roaches. Nerfing HP would make them a shitty hydralisks with less DPS. Nerfing 1 armor doesn't deserve a whole 1 supply drop. Making it faster won't address baneling bs in zvz.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the timeline for roaches went something like:
Roaches are too good
Nerf Roaches stats
Nerf Roaches upgrades
Okay.. i mean they arent as good but they are pretty okay now. Not imba because of insane regen and health and armor
Make Roaches 2 supply
wat
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Do you remember the zerg games before patch 12? Mass Roaches, nothing else. Whats a good strat before patch 12? Well mass roach. It had to be fixed, new strats need to be discovered for zerg, thats all.
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Not all races are the same, Zerg obviously isn't about unit diversity. Sure they could probably use some slight buffs, but they're not broken right now. Just look at IdrA's 89% win rate.
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I think there should be a speed upgrade for roaches.
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On August 05 2010 08:25 wholegrain wrote:
I think there should be a speed upgrade for roaches.
there is... is there not?...
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United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2010 08:25 wholegrain wrote:
I think there should be a speed upgrade for roaches.
Then what's Glial Reconstruction?
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lol i dont make roaches often. i only go muta and zerglings since roaches get owned pretty hard in 4v4.
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On August 05 2010 08:32 wholegrain wrote:
lol i dont make roaches often. i only go muta and zerglings since roaches get owned pretty hard in 4v4.
Then why are you posting?
Anyway, I would definitely support some kind of buff for the roach, although as others said I think making them 1 supply would be too much for late game. But I think they definitely need to be stronger early game.
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I think nerfing roaches slightly and making them 1 supply would help the roach cause greatly. zerg needs a 1 supply unit and this makes sense. reducing their armor wouldn't hurt them as they try to tank seige fire, and would allow bio to still beat them. making them fit a specific role rather than the all-around unit they used to be, and the last resort type unit they are now.
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On August 05 2010 07:04 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:49 AcOrP wrote:
I think swap roach with hydra make hydra a bit weaker and cheaper make roach stronger and a bit more expensive.
This way there will be more balance. pre Lair zerg has lings/roaches no long range or AA.No other race has so late range/AA unit.
And so early this 2 supply mean more overlords which in early game are not that cheap.
Hydra upgrades may still be lair tech so they don't become overpowered too early.
This will give zerg a safe build from which they can transition to other builds.Basicly this won't change much late game, but will give zerg better chance in early and mid game to be aggressive,becouse now all in is the only way to be aggressive. I think this is a pretty good idea actually. Then terran/protoss will probably whine about void/banshee cheese being totally useless vs zerg though. Hydra would need to be significantly weaker though or pvz wouldn't be very fair. Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:53 Fadetowhite wrote:
delete roaches make hydra tier 1 and nerf em abit add lurkers zerg problem solved If only...
PLease think a bit before this suggestions. Hydras as tier 1, and roaches as tier 2 would be a HUGE nerf to zerg. Why? Well. Mass hellions would actually work. Or you could just to a thor/hellion push. Right now the only zerg counter to that is mass roaches. Hydras are crap vs terran.
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I think removing the Infestor's burrowed movement upgrade (Peristalsis?) in the beta and giving it to them for free was a good idea. I think the cost (and time) of burrow and Glial Reconstruction is enough once you hit Lair. I don't feel like Roaches need Tunneling Claws to be researched anymore.
I'm dubious that roaches really need that extra 1 armor to be viable (the extra armor wouldn't give them an edge against heavy-hitting mech and would only make them counter marines and zealots harder, which they don't really need). I also don't think that they can have their supply reduced to 1 again unless they took a heavy, heavy hit to their stats (reduced damage, no armor, possibly reduced hitpoints -- they'd have to be a slightly more tanky marine).
I feel like forcing the opponent to need detection to fight roaches earlier (i.e., once Lair is reached and burrow is researched) is enough. While they're getting detection, it gives Zerg all the time and map control it really needs to get to T3 answers to heavy mech mid-games and immortal/colossi without being forced to go mutalisk.
EDIT: Typos.
SECOND EDIT: How gamebreaking would it be for Glial Reconstruction to be accessible before Lair as well? I can understand why burrow upgrades are postponed until Lair (they'd be overpowered too early), but I don't understand why roach speed is so delayed when zergling speed is not.
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I really think they should just make the roach cost 1.5 supply each.. going from 2 to 1 was just too drastic of a change..
I feel a simple change like making the roach 1.5 supply has the potential to fix the issues with t v z.. i was also thinking they should increase the research time for O/L speed & drop to allow for quicker drop play vs terran... dropping roaches onto tanks is a good way to balance out the fight especially when the tanks get up in numbers where its basically impossible to approach with a ground army off creep w/o getting slaughtered..
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On August 05 2010 08:22 Kantutan wrote:
Not all races are the same, Zerg obviously isn't about unit diversity. Sure they could probably use some slight buffs, but they're not broken right now. Just look at IdrA's 89% win rate.
zerg don't need a major buff, they just need to be fixed rather than buffed cause of the rather... boring way a zerg has to play right now.
for me right now it's like:
is it ZvZ? well get banelings, mass lings and try to stay over the enemies drone count and try to end this quickly before i slit my wrists out of boredom and anger over one baneling killing 8 lings
is he going air?: go hydra
is the terran going mech?: brood lords quickly or gg-f10-n
is the terran going bio? go mutaling baneling and make him rage over the fact that he didn't go mech
is the protoss doing early pressure? put up crawlers and defend the push then just mass hydras till you got enough to faceroll him
is the protoss not going early pressure? shame on him cause i'll just go mass drone and mass hydras till i've got enough to faceroll him.
of course i'm not on top diamond level but this is currently what i go trough daily and it's quite boring tbh, especially seeing how slow hydras are and the fact that you have to mass them to actually have a chance against anything right now.
i want to have a army that's not just mass hydra for once. i want to use speedlings together with my hydras but all they're really good for right now is if the toss did not bring zealots or if the terran did not go mech. i want to use roaches but unless it's early protoss pressure then hydra mass will be just as effective and less of a pain on the food count. i want to use infestors, but the current way the maps are SOOOO small that my hydra mass will block my infestors so that i either won't use them (unless air are present) or use burrow to try to get in range (at which they'll be sniped off) i want to use ultralisks, but massing hydras is way faster to reinforce your mass hydra army than making ultralisks since their build time takes AGES and the fact that the hydra army will just block the ultralisks from getting to the front. i want to use broodlords for other things than terran mech, but nah, they're just there today for terran mech. i want to use banelings for other things than ZvZ and terran stupid enough to not go mech
other builds are possible but well... hydras are the only functional part of the swarm for me, some people might disagree. but at the same time them being actually functional, they're also extremely immobile, their off creep speed is CRAAAAZY slow. unless it's steppes i can't get a few over there and put pressure on the enemy unless i've got shitloads of creep tumours and the enemy doesn't give a crap about killing them and even if it IS steppes and creep is not there, i'd still be so slow that the enemy would be able to put up a good defence before they even get there.
blahblahblah /rant /rant /rant
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On August 05 2010 07:52 Sieziggy wrote:
Cliffwalking would be massively OP.
At T2.5? Nah. Just massively fun.
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On August 05 2010 04:27 graphene wrote:
lol, no they arent, wtf bo are u playing make 3 stalkers :D
Then, O Mighty One, why do 9 out of 10 Zerg I play, regardless of what they scout me doing, go mass roaches as soon as they can?
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On August 05 2010 09:44 gdroxor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 04:27 graphene wrote:
lol, no they arent, wtf bo are u playing make 3 stalkers :D Then, O Mighty One, why do 9 out of 10 Zerg I play, regardless of what they scout me doing, go mass roaches as soon as they can?
Im guessing its because you don't play in diamond or platinum league?
Either that or you dont have many BO's and your BO's just happen to be weak against Roaches.
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i agree the roach nerf was too much. making it 1 armour or maybe even 0 armour and add a lil hp woulda been better.
@ultras tier 2 ultras is kinda too strong, plus u wont be able to support the money on it
@neural parasite i think the change was needed (from infinite) mana cost? id say 75 would be fair. what they should do now is prob extend the range of it or also enable infestor to cast ne spell while burrowed
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I still think IdrA's suggestion is best, make roaches 1.5 supply, I think that would fix alot.
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On August 05 2010 08:22 Kantutan wrote:
Not all races are the same, Zerg obviously isn't about unit diversity. Sure they could probably use some slight buffs, but they're not broken right now. Just look at IdrA's 89% win rate.
You're using Idra's winrate as an example of Zerg being balanced?
His mechanics are so far beyond even the average DIAMOND league player that he can win based on that alone. This is not an adequate example of racial balance when Idra even self admits that ZvT is a stupid matchup.
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I set out to prove that zerg is missing a unit, but by the end of my ramble post/half formed article, I solve my own agitation. Maybe this will help other frustrated zergs. Keep in mind I am by no means a top player and all the caveats that go with that. If well received, I suppose this has potential to be made into an article with pretty pictures and nice formatting.
Unit Breakdown:
+ Show Spoiler +
I would define offensive casters as units with more than 1 spell. at least one of which is used in battle to directly support your army.
Terran: 13 Total Units
2 non combat (scv medvac)
11 Army Units.
6 with mana (ghost medvac thor bc banshee raven)
2 offensive casters (raven, ghost),
2 cloak unit (ghost banshee)
Protoss: 15 Total Units
2 non-combat (obs, warp prism)
13 Army Units
4 with mana (moship, HT, pheonix, sentry)
3 offensive casters (moship, HT, sentry)
1 cloak unit (DT)
Zerg: 15 Total Units
5 non combat (larvae drone ovi nydus overseer)
10 Army Units
4 With mana (queen corrupter infestor overseer)
2 offensive casters (queen, infestor)
debatable cloak units, but I would count roach and infestor.
Using Terran as comparison, Protoss weakness lies in not being able to "mass" units. To compensate for this, they get one more offensive caster, and +2 army units to spruce up army diversity. Zerg weakness lies in the opposite end. They loose out on army diversity (10 army units) but gain mobility and therefore map control. The message is clear from blizzard, zerg innovation should be on clever positioning, and not army composition. You should be using creep, ovi drop, and nydus to increase the mobility of your main army. More flanking, and less 1 line vs 1 line clash battles.
The money question is:
Is the mobility trade off worth the loss in army diversity?
If your answer is no, then in your heart, you are not a zerg player. You may have been one in starcraft one, but you are not in starcraft 2. You may be an infested terran player, or even an infested protoss player, but at the end of the day, you are not true zerg. If your answer is yes, then you are not my target audience, and you are not bitching about zerg, and this probably doesnt bug you all that much. So, to all my infested brethren who desire to be zerg but just cant seem to embrace it all, let us divine.
The core of "what makes zerg boring" is that players don't innovate enough on positioning. And I will be first among many to admit that it is hard. Creep generation takes a long time, nydus requires a lot of cash investment, dies to player awareness and gets poked to death by probes, and overlord drop takes forever research and set up. See? Zerg sucks!
NO! You are doing it wrong. Because zerg is so damn positioning centric, they suffer the most from lumping your army into a giant-one-control-group-ball. While I am not a uber gosu 250APM hax player, here are some thoughts on how to innovate on positioning.
- Take the time to spread your army out in chunks away from your base, so that when the hammer hits your front door, you can 1a everything and they will do the perfect circle surround.
- Dont use one control group.
- Abuse infestor fungal growth more before The Big Clash to stall pushes and maximize damage.
- Make all your overlords diarrhea creep all the time, there is no reason not to
- You can "tag" an overlord to your army and have it crap creep everywhere your army is.
- Nydus OUTSIDE their base. Nydus should be used to make your army ninja. Nydus like a protoss player spreads his pylons. You want your nydus mouths to be far apart and kept alive. Shoving a nydus straight up someone's mineral line is like trying to surprise backdoor a 7ft angry meathead hulk. It will not work and he will punch your nydus so hard, the unhatched eggs at your hatchery will scrunch up.
But all this does not address the fact that zerg early game feels horribly restricted. You have two choices. You want to enjoy the life of a nice caterpillar. You just want to be left alone, weave your cocoon of defensive lings and sunkens, and morph to lair asap so that you can spread wings and actually do something other than mine minerals. Or you can praise your holy-deity-of-choice and go for some all in baneling/roach bust thing. Zergs feel binary. Between attacking and defending, there is no middle ground of harassing and building up.
If we were to add one unit to zerg, what role would it satisfy? Should it be a caster, a damage dealer, or another passive support unit?
Personally, I would like to see another caster unit. The queen and overseer just dont benefit an army the same way. Zerg, which focuses so much on army positioning, has nothing to scale cliffs, this seems very odd. I would like to see something that can be casted on units to enable one-way scaling of cliffs. Call it brittle climbing claws or something. Hopefully it can be incorporated into the early game somehow to allow for cute not-too-deadly harass, like getting 3-4 lings into someone's base. But not early enough so that you can bumrush someone going FE without cannons in the main.
At the end of the day I dont feel qualified enough or creative enough to think of some unit to satisfy the hole in the swarm, but I hope i've put out enough ideas to convince people that zerg isnt quite as stale as you think, but just needs to be played differently from protoss and terran.
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if anything they should maybe put back 2 armor but leave it at 2 supply
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Yeah, a roach being half a zealot in supply is ridonkulous!
I say make the zealot 1.5 supply while we are at it!
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On August 05 2010 01:34 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:31 Lz wrote:Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad I never said they were bad, they just dont come fast enough compared to other races. Do you ever see a mid-game push with speedlings/hydralisk and 1-2 ultras by zerg, as compared to 3gate/1 robo or 2 factory marine/hellion/thor ? :D
the equivalent of toss and terran in term of tech tree is carrier and bc btw
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Neural Parasite can be fixed quite easily. Just make it usable without researching it, and change the upgrade to make it indefinite, AND, when upgraded, if the unit in question is NP'd for 60 seconds or so, NP goes away, and that unit is yours. Period.
Really, they made it cost 100 energy, AND require an upgrade, and then they just nerf it to 12 seconds? Makes absolutely no sense IMO.
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lol what a bad fix. Id say if you want it to be 12 seconds then just make it Not channeling and perhaps even require less energy.
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I don't see anyone think seriously about using neural parasite anyway. It's quite the more expensive spell to use and it's one of the less powerfull.
Other Infestor spells are way better now.It don't make the Infestor a bad unit. Zerg can handle don't have that awsome mind control ability anymore.
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On August 05 2010 10:28 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:44 gdroxor wrote:On August 05 2010 04:27 graphene wrote:
lol, no they arent, wtf bo are u playing make 3 stalkers :D Then, O Mighty One, why do 9 out of 10 Zerg I play, regardless of what they scout me doing, go mass roaches as soon as they can? Im guessing its because you don't play in diamond or platinum league? Either that or you dont have many BO's and your BO's just happen to be weak against Roaches.
Actually I'm very close to top of my platinum division. I don't often lose to fast roaches, because I scout it early and forcefield at my ramp + void ray = auto win. But it's very curious to me as to why so many (what seems to me the vast majorityof ) Zerg players feel that they need to build nothing but roaches for the first 5 minutes of the game if it was such a terrible build.
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On August 05 2010 10:58 KhAlleB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:34 Defrag wrote:On August 05 2010 01:31 Lz wrote:Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad I never said they were bad, they just dont come fast enough compared to other races. Do you ever see a mid-game push with speedlings/hydralisk and 1-2 ultras by zerg, as compared to 3gate/1 robo or 2 factory marine/hellion/thor ? :D the equivalent of toss and terran in term of tech tree is carrier and bc btw
for toss, Colossus is just as high in the tech tree.
Ultralisks need to come out slower then the other two races because of how quickly you can pump them in comparison. Imagine if your first ultralisk came at the same time as his first colossus. You could start spamming them away since you have larva and stomp protoss before they even get to build up a reasonable number of high tech units. It was the same way in brood war and it makes just as much sense here.
On August 05 2010 12:14 gdroxor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 10:28 Disastorm wrote:On August 05 2010 09:44 gdroxor wrote:On August 05 2010 04:27 graphene wrote:
lol, no they arent, wtf bo are u playing make 3 stalkers :D Then, O Mighty One, why do 9 out of 10 Zerg I play, regardless of what they scout me doing, go mass roaches as soon as they can? Im guessing its because you don't play in diamond or platinum league? Either that or you dont have many BO's and your BO's just happen to be weak against Roaches. But it's very curious to me as to why so many (what seems to me the vast majorityof ) Zerg players feel that they need to build nothing but roaches for the first 5 minutes of the game if it was such a terrible build.
Because they don't know what they are doing. I rarely even build a roach warren in my zvps and I can't remember the last time I saw one in a standard zvp pre-lair.
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I loved the roach nerf, before the nerf every matchup used to be mostly roaches and it was fucking boring.
The roach is still a very useful unit and you can see it in every matchup, it just isn't THE unit anymore and I think that's awesome.
I still go roach/infestor in ZvZ and it usually works great, I haven't died to a baneling zerg in a very long time so I think you are just wrong on that one and that the problem will fix itself.
Neural Parasite is retarded now though, I'll agree on that one, if it's gonna be shit like this at least make neural parasite not require research again.
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The neural parasite lasting 10 seconds pisses me off more than any roach change. I don't even research NP anymore.
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NP is useless now. It might as well autolose the game cause you researched it.
I'm mad because it was a key counter to a lot of funky T builds. Thors are a little too strong now.
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I think it's slightly like that.
1 (Drone)
1 (Zergling)
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
6
Doesn't feel so swarmy anymore right?
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On August 05 2010 06:58 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:15 Pinstripes wrote:On August 05 2010 05:08 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
1.5 supply only works if they hatch 2 at a time and with the zerg larva mechanic this would make roaches disgustingly powerful with the ability to hatch them at a ridiculous rate. Why do two have to come out of one? They could just come out as 1.5 supply put of one. for lack of a better term it would be stupid lings are 1 supply a pair for a reason could you see hatching out .5 lings 1 at a time? no.
No but I believe most people agree that roach is too weak to be a 2 supply unit and too strong to be a 1 supply unit. So if adding one decimal point to the supply counter and having one roach pop out of one egg for 1.5 supply helps balance the game tremendously i don't see why not.
Edit: I also think the pop cap should be raised but that may not be pertinent to this thread.
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On August 05 2010 01:20 Defrag wrote:Recently I've been trying to develop some new strats and openings, and as far as it goes, the problem with zerg is as following: there are no viable multiple openings against each race.
Sure, you can all-in baneling burst against Terran, but at high diamond play you will almost always get blocked which will result in a lose just minutes later. Against Terran there is probably one opening only atm which is pool with speedlings-> hatch and then adapt. Pretty much same against Protoss. This is quite different from Terran, who can open with reapers, marine/tank push, thor drops, fast banshees, fast vikings, hellion harras into fast expo, hellion into marauder/tank/marine push etc.
First point, these are all pretty easily scouted, and easily countered openings for top players. I think the only problem with zerg is platinum or below ranked players and how playable zerg is compared to protoss and terran. A zerg can macro better, and counter better, but barely slip up in SOMETHING or overreact slightly in one way, and a mindless toss who just spams the same units can win, or a mindless terran who just spams out tanks can win. Higher level zergs though, don't have this problem. You also try to say that zerg's can't attack, or have any opening. First off banelings are still viable, early roach harass is viable (you can't do it if you expand, but terran and protoss rarely expand early either) just watch some matches where it worked for idra. I rarely see 1 base play from zerg. The times I do they get roaches much faster, and just sit there in their base with them. Why do you always do that? I'm not good, everyone is better than me seriously, but why do almost every zerg play so passive, so sit in your base, 100% macro game. There has to be early game options with roaches and banelings, and early speedlings can harass pretty good. Destructible rocks are also pretty easy access to many places, and by the time they can have air, you can always have hydras no matter what. Especially on 1 base. This "I have to expand early or else I lose" mentality is the reason why zerg players don't play differently. 14 pool 15/16 hatch is not the end all be all strat.
There was one huge over-nerf, where almost whole scene didint agree it was justified ( if you would like to see players opinions please refer to this thread: Patch 12 - Changes and Discussion ), and Zerg players were promised something in exchange. Better infestor, faster ultralisk, whatever. Nope, nothing came.
The ultralisk IS faster, and does increased damage versus armored, and buildings. It was made this way because the problem with roaches being 2 supply wasn't early game, it was late game. Early game roaches are still fine, and a lot of people use them. Late game they consume too much food, soa 200/200 food army composed of the same units, the roaches just aren't worth it anymore, you see? So they had to buff ultralisks, since they were the late game short range tank unit, the replacement beef for the early-mid game roaches. That's what you are supposed to DO. Not completely replace them, but use some of that food for a few ultras. The ultras ARE buff, you just gotta keep them in front of your army so they don't have pathing problems. Just because they don't path like zerglings doesn't mean they suck. You have GOT to be smarter than the game's AI amirite?
Let me ask you: how often do you see roaches being used in high-lvl games now?
Im sure you will agree that almost never, probably only case they are used is defending a 2 gate early game from protoss, or SOMETIMES against hellions, since it's questionable as well - at the moment it's considered better to just build second queen and block the ramp of natural while spine crawlers defend from hellions.
Roaches are just not good enough for 2 supply in early game, and later they are just not made often, since there are better units: hydra's who are far superior vs Toss, mutalisks against Terran or Zerg.
Some people will say 2 supply instead of 1 isnt a big deal - yes it is. For every 4 roaches you make you could make another 2 drones.
I think roaches being brought back to 1 supply would fix quite a lot of problems without imbalancing the game - Roaches were fine with 1 supply after all the nerfs already, which is pretty easy to see in the thread from patch 12 I linked.
One supply roach could fix:
1) Early terran pushes.
Roach was designed to counter mech, and let's be honest - it doesnt now. Tanks are insane and later game even 1 supply Roach wouldnt be game breaking since atm Zerg's only chance is to... zerg terran anyway.
There would be actually a way to keep decent economy compared to Terran with mules, and prepare for a upcoming Thor mix/Tank mix push coming in 7-8th minute of game.
Okay here's a lot of crap. I see roaches very often. Anytime someone 2 gates, any time someone reaper rushes/all ins, anytime someone baneling spams. The counter to that is roaches, and if the 2 gate goes cyber, lings. That's it. Pretty simple. Defending should be harder than attacking, because you are sitting in your base being greedy, there has to be a tradeoff for it to be balanced. If attacking was harder than defending the game would be RETARDED. It would be Total Annihilation (sorry TA fans, defense was too good in that game). If you scout a unit that messes up roaches, guess what, almost every single one of those units is bitch slapped by speedling flanks. Flank with speedlings more, and then come back and complain about the "state of zerg".
2) Two gate pushes / pylon+cannon blocks.
It's insanely hard to defend a proxy 2 gate push on Desert Oasis/Lost temple vs Toss, let alone speaking of mid/late game where toss can just put forge and block the choke with cannons. There is no viable counter by Zerg atm ( banelings are all-in which is easy to counter by 1 proper force field ), besides playing macro game and praying you can get to corruptors and mass enough force before Toss push with 2 robo colossus comes.
There is no punishment for Toss playing that kind of strat, since there is pretty much no way Zerg can reply fast and make any sort of counter attack.
Actually roaches are a great counter to this. On desert oasis there is a phenomenally long amount of time for them to reach your base, you have plenty of time to defend easy. Because of that you can always stay ahead till you get mutas. Once you get mutas it should be gg. Against 2 gate or reapers on desert oasis just go 1 base mutas, you'll be fine, expand after your 5-6 mutas pop instantly. Speedlings and 2-3 spine crawlers are enough to easily defend 2 gate, you don't even need roaches in my experience. Your queen fills that role easily, and if you just build zerglings till the attack is gone then use them to scout and move out while you tech up to mutas, you will do just fine, Once you defend, you are ahead, that doesn't mean you can crush him, you are just a bit ahead. Maintain that lead to get mutas, and then tech up some more defend some more while you harass and keep him in his base, and just get to ultras, gg. Ultras vs toss, what is he going to do dark templar spam?
3) The awesome state of Zerg vs Zerg match-up
Does it need a comment?
Speedlings vs Speedlings, add some banelings, there you have the most random match-up of sc2. One bad or lucky explosion can completely turn the game around.
Almost every player hates the match-up and big part of player base would agree that roach/hydra at least required some flanking, fungal growth usage and micro instead of being random.
Roach being 1 supply would make it possible to defend early speedling/baneling push, however speed-baneling would still be viable as the strat takes insane map control with spedlings + mutas. Let us choose what we want to play, and not force the match up into one strategy.
Actually 1 base roach does pretty well in zvz. I thought my opponent was going banelings, but then scouted the roach warren what do I do? Well I cancel my baneling nest, and stick with my expansion and main pumping drones and try to keep up. He takes out my 2 spine crawlers and 5 roaches with 2 queens with his 8 roaches. 2 base with drones and roaches and crawlers, lost to roaches off 1 base. I checked replay, I was macroing better, but he timed the push just right. He came in when the spine crawler was ALMOST done, and when my creep was almost connected thus delaying a roach, he moved his roaches so they couldn't get attacked by the high ground (lost temple), and he focused the crawlers then the queens (which would have transfused in a few seconds since they ahd 48 energy. His timing was lucky and skilled at the same time. That's not broken, just as soon as I saw the super early roach warren, I knew he was going to attack, and I knew banelings would have been pointless. Banelings are horrible against roaches, roaches are great in ZvZ stop lying.
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Zerg has to many little opennings against all the races I feel
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On August 05 2010 13:37 Pinstripes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 06:58 arb wrote:On August 05 2010 05:15 Pinstripes wrote:On August 05 2010 05:08 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
1.5 supply only works if they hatch 2 at a time and with the zerg larva mechanic this would make roaches disgustingly powerful with the ability to hatch them at a ridiculous rate. Why do two have to come out of one? They could just come out as 1.5 supply put of one. for lack of a better term it would be stupid lings are 1 supply a pair for a reason could you see hatching out .5 lings 1 at a time? no. No but I believe most people agree that roach is too weak to be a 2 supply unit and too strong to be a 1 supply unit. So if adding one decimal point to the supply counter and having one roach pop out of one egg for 1.5 supply helps balance the game tremendously i don't see why not. Edit: I also think the pop cap should be raised but that may not be pertinent to this thread.
OOOOOR you just nerf their hp a bit.
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Roaches are completely viable in ZvZ except on some maps. On maps a like Blistering Sands where mobility is key, and there is that backdoor speedlings do pretty well in comparison to Roaches. However on a map such as Lost Temple where if not on close positions, you can do a fast expansion and survive to a baneling + speedling attack at around 20-24 food with a spine crawler or 2 with Roaches blocking the ramp into your main to prevent runby + surround. That is also another problem that makes roaches not as good on a map such as Scrap Station, way too hard to defend natural and main from speedlings with wide ramp/choke and rocks.
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I think an interesting thing to do with Ultras would be to remove the gas cost entirely from them and to make them cost 350 minerals.
Because since everyone has a couple thousand sitting in the bank at all times, that means when you finally get the ultra tech, you can get a dozen at a time.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Plat player here in full agreement that the roach nerf was harsh. I rarely use them anymore...I mean I can see situations where they would be useful but most of my opponents don't seem to use those builds where they would be useful. They just seem weak for a 2 supply unit. I wouldn't mind seeing them as a 1.5 unit (2 pop in an egg for 3 supply for example).
That being said, I personally didn't have a problem with them at 1 supply. I found all the zerg matchups interesting back then (even zvz seemed more interesting and zvt felt a lot more balanced early game). But eh these are just my opinions we'll see what happens.
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I like the roach nerf. I think the problem with Z isn't the roach nerf but it is lacking a unit like the defiler... infestors are cool but it just doesn't do what defiler could do....
but the reason why i say i like the roach nerf is (idk if someone mentioned this... didn't read all 12 pages) that before the nerf, in ZvZ everybody was doing 1 base roach build and seeing who could get more roaches first.
After the patch it became one base baneling war....
but if you have been paying attention there has been more deviation from that in high level play. The majority of ZvZ is still baneling war probably. But I have seen some nice builds that deviated from that like Idra.
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Zerg ist too boring in the early-Game and is very fragile to numerous openings Terran and Toss can throw at them. Zerg needs some *funky/dangerous* stuff to do in the early game whiteout going All-In, you are just not dangerous to your enemy if he is not playing like a retard (letting lings run in, totally ignoring that you build 1 base Roach or are going for a baneling bust...).
A change to Infestors, while nice , wouldn't change any of that (except probably against the fast Thor).
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On August 05 2010 15:12 apekzhrk wrote:
I like the roach nerf. I think the problem with Z isn't the roach nerf but it is lacking a unit like the defiler... infestors are cool but it just doesn't do what defiler could do....
but the reason why i say i like the roach nerf is (idk if someone mentioned this... didn't read all 12 pages) that before the nerf, in ZvZ everybody was doing 1 base roach build and seeing who could get more roaches first.
After the patch it became one base baneling war....
but if you have been paying attention there has been more deviation from that in high level play. The majority of ZvZ is still baneling war probably. But I have seen some nice builds that deviated from that like Idra.
I think there was a post from blizzard that they have no intentions of bringing back lurker / defiler at all, at least not within initial release.
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Has anyone suggested adding another 1 supply zerg unit- just another unit with another tier 1.5 tech structure- make it require spawning pool and have gas (150/50 cost)? Stats along the lines of:
minilisk-
50-70 hp
0 armor (armor type- biological- ??light?? -probalbly light... if it got 3 shot by marauders would make it pretty worthless)
Ranged (3-5)
about the same dps as roach (able to attack air?) probably faster attack speed.
25/50 min 25/50 gas... some combination probably totaling 75 resources (50/25 would be good imo for a unit like this).
1 supply
movespeed slightly less than upgraded roachspeed, not upgradeable
Upgradeable Burrow- no burrow move.
Make it basically a unit whos only role is to fill the ranks of zerg early until tier 2 upgrades / units are available.
I know this is total totaly theorycrafting, but as a mid diamond player (~450 points right now), I don't think zerg are underpowered. I do, however, think they lack diversity in the earlygame. Always the same things... speedlings (most common + kinda works), roaches (less common and dosen't really work), or bling bust (all in- only works if i fuck up hard).
Terran, however, have about infinity options in the early game: go marines, MM, Pure maruader, Maruader hellion, reaper-maruader.. (hell even reaper marine vs speedling/baneling if your micro is redic).
I dont know jack about ZvP other than toss can push early with zelots- so to balance that matchup these units should not be able to come out any faster than roaches (which counter zelots in the early game anyway).
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On August 05 2010 06:29 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:36 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:On August 05 2010 05:35 Icx wrote:
You said slush vs Lz, but you linked suggy vs Lz.
(didn't catch the suggy game)
If it is the first one, what is supposed to say? That it is possible for terran to throw a game away?
He just stayed on MMM the whole game with some vikings wich he did absolutely nothing with, and let zerg come back after that early hellion harass.
He never ever bothered getting the xel'naga towers.
I don't see what this game is supposed to point out, except that you shouldn't spam MMM only for a whole game.
I do think that Lz is a high-level player, I just think he played that game out very poorly compared to what is possible/how he normally plays Oops thats SLush I typod it on the website heres the right link http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/slush-vs-lzgamer-lost-templeand thats game 3 not game 1, the one I Linked was him breaking deflecting reapers with 3 roaches just 3, then breaking his mech push in the middle with mass roach and 1 ultra Correct me if Im wrong, but LzGamer is known for going mass rax-reaper? :D Or was it Satini ;/ Seems like a pretty obvious choice to counter a specfic player. Also no offence, but we are discussing mid game pushes by Terran, and besides repeaer harras Lz didint attack once whole game.
Watch the damn replay you asked for a replay watch it, it was a midgame push by Lz and it got broken by roaches and 1 ultra geeze
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There is absolutely no reason to justify making roaches 2 supply. If they wanted to increase the supply requirement, they should have made it 1.5 supply.
As it is at 2 supply, roach is just ridiculously underpowered. It can't really kill a speed zealot unless on creep with speed upgrade, 1 stalker can kill infinite number of them unless on creep, marauders can own them outnumbered, mass marines without medivacs can own upgraded microed roaches, speedlings can kinda own them, siege tanks, immortals, sentries, etc. etc.
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On August 06 2010 03:32 Xapti wrote:
There is absolutely no reason to justify making roaches 2 supply. If they wanted to increase the supply requirement, they should have made it 1.5 supply.
As it is at 2 supply, roach is just ridiculously underpowered. It can't really kill a speed zealot unless on creep with speed upgrade, 1 stalker can kill infinite number of them unless on creep, marauders can own them outnumbered, mass marines without medivacs can own upgraded microed roaches, speedlings can kinda own them, siege tanks, immortals, sentries, etc. etc.
I complete agree with roaches being underpowered atm But make roach 1.5 supply(ie 2 spawning from the same egg with a cost of 3 supply) would be OP because of the larva cost. Zerg could pump out a crazy amount of roach without a 2nd hatchery while still pumping drones. I would rather see them get their 2 armor back and fill a roll of soaking dmg large amounts of damage.
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I am specifically talking about making them 1.5 supply, NOT 2 in 1 egg. Essentially every second roach would cost 2 supply,unless there was an uneven number of zerglings/baneling controlled, in which case it would will be every second roach, just starting with the first as opposed to the 2nd.
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EPT
