EPTReally, they made it cost 100 energy, AND require an upgrade, and then they just nerf it to 12 seconds? Makes absolutely no sense IMO.
View: Roach nerf was a mistake. - Page 15
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ghettohobbit2
United States93 Posts
Really, they made it cost 100 energy, AND require an upgrade, and then they just nerf it to 12 seconds? Makes absolutely no sense IMO. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Other Infestor spells are way better now.It don't make the Infestor a bad unit. Zerg can handle don't have that awsome mind control ability anymore. | ||
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gdroxor
United States639 Posts
On August 05 2010 10:28 Disastorm wrote: Im guessing its because you don't play in diamond or platinum league? Either that or you dont have many BO's and your BO's just happen to be weak against Roaches. Actually I'm very close to top of my platinum division. I don't often lose to fast roaches, because I scout it early and forcefield at my ramp + void ray = auto win. But it's very curious to me as to why so many (what seems to me the vast majorityof ) Zerg players feel that they need to build nothing but roaches for the first 5 minutes of the game if it was such a terrible build. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On August 05 2010 10:58 KhAlleB wrote: the equivalent of toss and terran in term of tech tree is carrier and bc btw for toss, Colossus is just as high in the tech tree. Ultralisks need to come out slower then the other two races because of how quickly you can pump them in comparison. Imagine if your first ultralisk came at the same time as his first colossus. You could start spamming them away since you have larva and stomp protoss before they even get to build up a reasonable number of high tech units. It was the same way in brood war and it makes just as much sense here. On August 05 2010 12:14 gdroxor wrote: But it's very curious to me as to why so many (what seems to me the vast majorityof ) Zerg players feel that they need to build nothing but roaches for the first 5 minutes of the game if it was such a terrible build. Because they don't know what they are doing. I rarely even build a roach warren in my zvps and I can't remember the last time I saw one in a standard zvp pre-lair. | ||
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Ighox
Norway580 Posts
The roach is still a very useful unit and you can see it in every matchup, it just isn't THE unit anymore and I think that's awesome. I still go roach/infestor in ZvZ and it usually works great, I haven't died to a baneling zerg in a very long time so I think you are just wrong on that one and that the problem will fix itself. Neural Parasite is retarded now though, I'll agree on that one, if it's gonna be shit like this at least make neural parasite not require research again. | ||
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Ordained
United States779 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
I'm mad because it was a key counter to a lot of funky T builds. Thors are a little too strong now. | ||
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EssayReader
Korea (South)127 Posts
1 (Drone) 1 (Zergling) 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 6 Doesn't feel so swarmy anymore right?  | ||
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Pinstripes
17 Posts
On August 05 2010 06:58 arb wrote: for lack of a better term it would be stupid lings are 1 supply a pair for a reason could you see hatching out .5 lings 1 at a time? no. No but I believe most people agree that roach is too weak to be a 2 supply unit and too strong to be a 1 supply unit. So if adding one decimal point to the supply counter and having one roach pop out of one egg for 1.5 supply helps balance the game tremendously i don't see why not. Edit: I also think the pop cap should be raised but that may not be pertinent to this thread. | ||
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
On August 05 2010 01:20 Defrag wrote:Recently I've been trying to develop some new strats and openings, and as far as it goes, the problem with zerg is as following: there are no viable multiple openings against each race. Sure, you can all-in baneling burst against Terran, but at high diamond play you will almost always get blocked which will result in a lose just minutes later. Against Terran there is probably one opening only atm which is pool with speedlings-> hatch and then adapt. Pretty much same against Protoss. This is quite different from Terran, who can open with reapers, marine/tank push, thor drops, fast banshees, fast vikings, hellion harras into fast expo, hellion into marauder/tank/marine push etc. First point, these are all pretty easily scouted, and easily countered openings for top players. I think the only problem with zerg is platinum or below ranked players and how playable zerg is compared to protoss and terran. A zerg can macro better, and counter better, but barely slip up in SOMETHING or overreact slightly in one way, and a mindless toss who just spams the same units can win, or a mindless terran who just spams out tanks can win. Higher level zergs though, don't have this problem. You also try to say that zerg's can't attack, or have any opening. First off banelings are still viable, early roach harass is viable (you can't do it if you expand, but terran and protoss rarely expand early either) just watch some matches where it worked for idra. I rarely see 1 base play from zerg. The times I do they get roaches much faster, and just sit there in their base with them. Why do you always do that? I'm not good, everyone is better than me seriously, but why do almost every zerg play so passive, so sit in your base, 100% macro game. There has to be early game options with roaches and banelings, and early speedlings can harass pretty good. Destructible rocks are also pretty easy access to many places, and by the time they can have air, you can always have hydras no matter what. Especially on 1 base. This "I have to expand early or else I lose" mentality is the reason why zerg players don't play differently. 14 pool 15/16 hatch is not the end all be all strat. There was one huge over-nerf, where almost whole scene didint agree it was justified ( if you would like to see players opinions please refer to this thread: Patch 12 - Changes and Discussion ), and Zerg players were promised something in exchange. Better infestor, faster ultralisk, whatever. Nope, nothing came. The ultralisk IS faster, and does increased damage versus armored, and buildings. It was made this way because the problem with roaches being 2 supply wasn't early game, it was late game. Early game roaches are still fine, and a lot of people use them. Late game they consume too much food, soa 200/200 food army composed of the same units, the roaches just aren't worth it anymore, you see? So they had to buff ultralisks, since they were the late game short range tank unit, the replacement beef for the early-mid game roaches. That's what you are supposed to DO. Not completely replace them, but use some of that food for a few ultras. The ultras ARE buff, you just gotta keep them in front of your army so they don't have pathing problems. Just because they don't path like zerglings doesn't mean they suck. You have GOT to be smarter than the game's AI amirite? Let me ask you: how often do you see roaches being used in high-lvl games now? Im sure you will agree that almost never, probably only case they are used is defending a 2 gate early game from protoss, or SOMETIMES against hellions, since it's questionable as well - at the moment it's considered better to just build second queen and block the ramp of natural while spine crawlers defend from hellions. Roaches are just not good enough for 2 supply in early game, and later they are just not made often, since there are better units: hydra's who are far superior vs Toss, mutalisks against Terran or Zerg. Some people will say 2 supply instead of 1 isnt a big deal - yes it is. For every 4 roaches you make you could make another 2 drones. I think roaches being brought back to 1 supply would fix quite a lot of problems without imbalancing the game - Roaches were fine with 1 supply after all the nerfs already, which is pretty easy to see in the thread from patch 12 I linked. One supply roach could fix: 1) Early terran pushes. Roach was designed to counter mech, and let's be honest - it doesnt now. Tanks are insane and later game even 1 supply Roach wouldnt be game breaking since atm Zerg's only chance is to... zerg terran anyway. There would be actually a way to keep decent economy compared to Terran with mules, and prepare for a upcoming Thor mix/Tank mix push coming in 7-8th minute of game. Okay here's a lot of crap. I see roaches very often. Anytime someone 2 gates, any time someone reaper rushes/all ins, anytime someone baneling spams. The counter to that is roaches, and if the 2 gate goes cyber, lings. That's it. Pretty simple. Defending should be harder than attacking, because you are sitting in your base being greedy, there has to be a tradeoff for it to be balanced. If attacking was harder than defending the game would be RETARDED. It would be Total Annihilation (sorry TA fans, defense was too good in that game). If you scout a unit that messes up roaches, guess what, almost every single one of those units is bitch slapped by speedling flanks. Flank with speedlings more, and then come back and complain about the "state of zerg". 2) Two gate pushes / pylon+cannon blocks. It's insanely hard to defend a proxy 2 gate push on Desert Oasis/Lost temple vs Toss, let alone speaking of mid/late game where toss can just put forge and block the choke with cannons. There is no viable counter by Zerg atm ( banelings are all-in which is easy to counter by 1 proper force field ), besides playing macro game and praying you can get to corruptors and mass enough force before Toss push with 2 robo colossus comes. There is no punishment for Toss playing that kind of strat, since there is pretty much no way Zerg can reply fast and make any sort of counter attack. Actually roaches are a great counter to this. On desert oasis there is a phenomenally long amount of time for them to reach your base, you have plenty of time to defend easy. Because of that you can always stay ahead till you get mutas. Once you get mutas it should be gg. Against 2 gate or reapers on desert oasis just go 1 base mutas, you'll be fine, expand after your 5-6 mutas pop instantly. Speedlings and 2-3 spine crawlers are enough to easily defend 2 gate, you don't even need roaches in my experience. Your queen fills that role easily, and if you just build zerglings till the attack is gone then use them to scout and move out while you tech up to mutas, you will do just fine, Once you defend, you are ahead, that doesn't mean you can crush him, you are just a bit ahead. Maintain that lead to get mutas, and then tech up some more defend some more while you harass and keep him in his base, and just get to ultras, gg. Ultras vs toss, what is he going to do dark templar spam? 3) The awesome state of Zerg vs Zerg match-up Does it need a comment? Speedlings vs Speedlings, add some banelings, there you have the most random match-up of sc2. One bad or lucky explosion can completely turn the game around. Almost every player hates the match-up and big part of player base would agree that roach/hydra at least required some flanking, fungal growth usage and micro instead of being random. Roach being 1 supply would make it possible to defend early speedling/baneling push, however speed-baneling would still be viable as the strat takes insane map control with spedlings + mutas. Let us choose what we want to play, and not force the match up into one strategy. Actually 1 base roach does pretty well in zvz. I thought my opponent was going banelings, but then scouted the roach warren what do I do? Well I cancel my baneling nest, and stick with my expansion and main pumping drones and try to keep up. He takes out my 2 spine crawlers and 5 roaches with 2 queens with his 8 roaches. 2 base with drones and roaches and crawlers, lost to roaches off 1 base. I checked replay, I was macroing better, but he timed the push just right. He came in when the spine crawler was ALMOST done, and when my creep was almost connected thus delaying a roach, he moved his roaches so they couldn't get attacked by the high ground (lost temple), and he focused the crawlers then the queens (which would have transfused in a few seconds since they ahd 48 energy. His timing was lucky and skilled at the same time. That's not broken, just as soon as I saw the super early roach warren, I knew he was going to attack, and I knew banelings would have been pointless. Banelings are horrible against roaches, roaches are great in ZvZ stop lying. | ||
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Gentlebite
United States132 Posts
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lindn
Sweden833 Posts
On August 05 2010 13:37 Pinstripes wrote: No but I believe most people agree that roach is too weak to be a 2 supply unit and too strong to be a 1 supply unit. So if adding one decimal point to the supply counter and having one roach pop out of one egg for 1.5 supply helps balance the game tremendously i don't see why not. Edit: I also think the pop cap should be raised but that may not be pertinent to this thread. OOOOOR you just nerf their hp a bit. | ||
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Lexvink
Canada310 Posts
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ghermination
United States2851 Posts
Because since everyone has a couple thousand sitting in the bank at all times, that means when you finally get the ultra tech, you can get a dozen at a time. + Show Spoiler + "copper theorycrafting" | ||
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StarMasterX
United States113 Posts
That being said, I personally didn't have a problem with them at 1 supply. I found all the zerg matchups interesting back then (even zvz seemed more interesting and zvt felt a lot more balanced early game). But eh these are just my opinions we'll see what happens. | ||
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Gevin
United States21 Posts
but the reason why i say i like the roach nerf is (idk if someone mentioned this... didn't read all 12 pages) that before the nerf, in ZvZ everybody was doing 1 base roach build and seeing who could get more roaches first. After the patch it became one base baneling war.... but if you have been paying attention there has been more deviation from that in high level play. The majority of ZvZ is still baneling war probably. But I have seen some nice builds that deviated from that like Idra. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10870 Posts
A change to Infestors, while nice , wouldn't change any of that (except probably against the fast Thor). | ||
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Defrag
Poland414 Posts
On August 05 2010 15:12 apekzhrk wrote: I like the roach nerf. I think the problem with Z isn't the roach nerf but it is lacking a unit like the defiler... infestors are cool but it just doesn't do what defiler could do.... but the reason why i say i like the roach nerf is (idk if someone mentioned this... didn't read all 12 pages) that before the nerf, in ZvZ everybody was doing 1 base roach build and seeing who could get more roaches first. After the patch it became one base baneling war.... but if you have been paying attention there has been more deviation from that in high level play. The majority of ZvZ is still baneling war probably. But I have seen some nice builds that deviated from that like Idra. I think there was a post from blizzard that they have no intentions of bringing back lurker / defiler at all, at least not within initial release. | ||
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Zoltan
United States656 Posts
minilisk- 50-70 hp 0 armor (armor type- biological- ??light?? -probalbly light... if it got 3 shot by marauders would make it pretty worthless) Ranged (3-5) about the same dps as roach (able to attack air?) probably faster attack speed. 25/50 min 25/50 gas... some combination probably totaling 75 resources (50/25 would be good imo for a unit like this). 1 supply movespeed slightly less than upgraded roachspeed, not upgradeable Upgradeable Burrow- no burrow move. Make it basically a unit whos only role is to fill the ranks of zerg early until tier 2 upgrades / units are available. I know this is total totaly theorycrafting, but as a mid diamond player (~450 points right now), I don't think zerg are underpowered. I do, however, think they lack diversity in the earlygame. Always the same things... speedlings (most common + kinda works), roaches (less common and dosen't really work), or bling bust (all in- only works if i fuck up hard). Terran, however, have about infinity options in the early game: go marines, MM, Pure maruader, Maruader hellion, reaper-maruader.. (hell even reaper marine vs speedling/baneling if your micro is redic). I dont know jack about ZvP other than toss can push early with zelots- so to balance that matchup these units should not be able to come out any faster than roaches (which counter zelots in the early game anyway). | ||
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