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On August 05 2010 01:31 Lz wrote:Ultras Are Buff.. if you dissagree then you're bad 
In a vacuum, you're totally right. Ultralisks are a "strong unit". However, their cost and tech requirement means that you need to survive to a certain point in the game with a certain amount of expansions to make full use of this strong unit. This is very difficult compared to the other races in the current build of the game, with Zerg being forced to play defensively in ZvT especially; how many high level ZvT games involve the Z player desperately trying to defend against Hellions with Queens, Spine Crawlers, and Speedlings, while scrambling to tech and make use of some late-game units while T leisurely chooses one of like 20 insanely powerful build orders and walks in to pressure Z? A lot, I would contest. And how many are the other way around, with the Z applying constant pressure? Not many. This in and of itself should say something about the power (or lack thereof) of Zerg's early game. I'm not saying that it's definitely Roaches, because I'm not sure what it is. That is my personal opinion, but there are probably a few changes that could fix it. Either way, something has to be done, because any high level player would have to agree that Zerg currently has THE worst early game in SC2, no contest.
PS Being at a game doesn't justify making cheesy, blanket 1-liner statements. That type of attitude is really annoying.
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On August 05 2010 06:49 Mensab wrote:
Unless I'm sorely mistaken, the Zerg seem to be missing a spellcaster: Protoss - Sentry, Templar;
Terran - Ghost, Raven; Zerg - Infestor, ?
Zerg has the Overseer and also the Corrupter for a few spells between them. Plus Queens can also be very strong in the late game when paired with Ultralisks with some good Transfusion usage.
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On August 05 2010 05:15 Pinstripes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:08 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
1.5 supply only works if they hatch 2 at a time and with the zerg larva mechanic this would make roaches disgustingly powerful with the ability to hatch them at a ridiculous rate. Why do two have to come out of one? They could just come out as 1.5 supply put of one.
for lack of a better term it would be stupid
lings are 1 supply a pair for a reason
could you see hatching out .5 lings 1 at a time?
no.
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They only fix the roach needs to keep balance with the rest of the game imo would to be to bring the armor back up to 2. The fact that zealots rape roachs so hard off that stupid 4 gate speed build protoss have been doing, its ridiculous. Bring down to 1 supply would changed the late game to much and iam not sure how i feel about making them 1.5 supply or they pop out in twos.
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Roaches are still great units. Don't know what you're talking about. I wish they weren't countered by so many units, but the most I could really ask for would be the roach getting it's 2 armor back, since the only reason it was dropped to 1 was because they were trying to balance the 1 supply roach.
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On August 05 2010 01:32 Floophead_III wrote:
A 200/200 roach army was almost unstoppable. The roach change was REQUIRED!
Unless, you know, the other player got a single air unit.
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On August 05 2010 01:49 AcOrP wrote:
I think swap roach with hydra make hydra a bit weaker and cheaper make roach stronger and a bit more expensive.
This way there will be more balance. pre Lair zerg has lings/roaches no long range or AA.No other race has so late range/AA unit.
And so early this 2 supply mean more overlords which in early game are not that cheap.
Hydra upgrades may still be lair tech so they don't become overpowered too early.
This will give zerg a safe build from which they can transition to other builds.Basicly this won't change much late game, but will give zerg better chance in early and mid game to be aggressive,becouse now all in is the only way to be aggressive.
I think this is a pretty good idea actually. Then terran/protoss will probably whine about void/banshee cheese being totally useless vs zerg though. Hydra would need to be significantly weaker though or pvz wouldn't be very fair.
On August 05 2010 02:53 Fadetowhite wrote:
delete roaches make hydra tier 1 and nerf em abit add lurkers zerg problem solved
If only...
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On August 05 2010 07:03 Headshot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:32 Floophead_III wrote:
A 200/200 roach army was almost unstoppable. The roach change was REQUIRED! Unless, you know, the other player got a single air unit.
200/200 roach hydra with 1 supply roaches was broken beyond imagination
This fact came to me the game i decided not to immortal push(when roaches were always opened with) and late game 200 200 fight with 6-7 colossus he had so many units even that many colossus couldnt kill them
no zerg is gonna go mass roaches without a few hydras
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As zerg players like to whine they have not much diversity (which is actually true imo) and boring units, I think making roach 1 supply is bad idea. I don't really know if it would make them imba or not, but I think the other ways to fix them are way better. They make roaches more fun to use and don't make them so strong amassed like they were when they were 1 supply.
My favourite solutions are: (ONLY 1 AT TIME!)
1. Give them burrow movement automatically at lair tech.
This would make zergs use burrow movement way more. Roaches would still remain relatively weak (1 armor) but they have ability to regain health quite fast and move underground which would make roaches beautiful guerilla unit.(if used more - and this allows for it)
2. Give them 2 armor back and faster regen when burrowed.
I like it less because it will keep roaches straightforward unit like it is now, but rather without making them imba. I think zergs won't be able to spam them because of 2 supplyness. They will get a bit stronger just like they need but nothing gigantic.
About infestors: yea, clearly NP should get buff. One of the factors should be changed at time
1. Make it cost less mana (75 or 50 back like it was before?)
It would still require to research 150/150 and it would still last 12 seconds, so it wouldnt make it imba, just more viable
2. Remove research or make it 50/50
It would still take a lot of mana (100 like now) and would last very short so it wouldnt make it imba, just more viable
3. Make it last infinitely
I like it least because it doesnt make it any more viable vs thor or tank drops and that's what zergs struggle with the most on kulas and LT. (yea I know it's counterable but with big effort, while terran just drops his unit).
If we apply only one change, then the NP wouldnt go back to be omg imba.
If we fix roaches and infestors, then ultras dont need to be changed. Because in midgame zergs stand a chance vs pushes. (well, they still stand now, but yea zergs have some problems with massive terran midgame pushes while not having ultras). If blizz doesnt plan to fix roaches nor infestors at all, then I think your idea would be quite good.
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Maybe make spine crawlers cheaper? Would help wall in the mineral lines a bit faster and discourage the extensive hellion harass we experience.
I don't think zerg needs a massive buff, we just need something to give us a little more breathing room. Lacking a wall off, and having to expend a drone to create static D, maybe a 75 mineral spine crawler would be appropriate? 50?
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On August 05 2010 07:25 Sieziggy wrote:
Maybe make spine crawlers cheaper? Would help wall in the mineral lines a bit faster and discourage the extensive hellion harass we experience.
I don't think zerg needs a massive buff, we just need something to give us a little more breathing room. Lacking a wall off, and having to expend a drone to create static D, maybe a 75 mineral spine crawler would be appropriate? 50?
A decrease in build time would be much more reasonable.  Right now the problem isn't so much the cost as the fact that they're hard to get down in time to respond to your opponent.
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roaches were crazy on 1 food, but why not nerf them in another way? damage? hp? armor?
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What if... burrow were tier 1?
It would be pretty strong, but it would allow for some more generalist/safer openings.
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On August 05 2010 07:30 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 07:25 Sieziggy wrote:
Maybe make spine crawlers cheaper? Would help wall in the mineral lines a bit faster and discourage the extensive hellion harass we experience.
I don't think zerg needs a massive buff, we just need something to give us a little more breathing room. Lacking a wall off, and having to expend a drone to create static D, maybe a 75 mineral spine crawler would be appropriate? 50? A decrease in build time would be much more reasonable. Right now the problem isn't so much the cost as the fact that they're hard to get down in time to respond to your opponent.
True, minerals usually aren't too big of an issue. Either way, some better defensive options would negate a lot of the harassment that plagues early zerg games. The only reason I proposed cost is because 300 min worth of spine crawlers is equivalent to a significant force. I think much cheaper / easily deployed crawlers would put us more in line with the terran / protos' very powerful wall offs.
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Burrow for cliffwalking please. At lease then you might have a chance to get close enough to certain units to damage them even if stealth detectors ruin your day. Just make it require burrow + another upgrade per unit that burrow + moves.
Meanwhile in the land of realism.
1 or even 1.5(if it could be) food roach would be nice. The armor change OP had is a nice idea.
The only thing i find to be troubling is use of the worm or ovie sacs. Any help to get those more play able would be very nice and might even promote a some other play styles.
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Cliffwalking would be massively OP.
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I have been waiting quite a while for exactly two things to happen to the roach.
1.) Make it 1 supply
2.) Nerf its damage so a 200/200 supply roach army does not put out enough dps to constest properly mixed armies.
This would do several things. Give zerg a slightly safer opening against zealot pressure and such since you don't have to produce an overlord like every 20 seconds. ZvZ was at least somewhat diverse with the 1 supply roach. Opens up a cheaper investment into anti hellion play.
It would push the role of the roach to a tank which zerg so desperately needs to survive the midgame. In brood war your whole army tanked because you just had a ton of stuff. As this is not the case in sc2, a unit must be introduced into this role. Hydralisks and ultralisks are both high dps units. Zerglings are mostly just a mineral sink and perform somewhat as a tank. By introducing a decent tank, unit compositions should diversify. Hydra roach will be viable again. Roachling will function like a hydraling ball in brood war. Roach ultralisk would be affective against mech. Burrowed roach play will be explored more thoroughly. Roach + roach + more roach won't be able to do proper DPS in the face of a huge army.
edit: I feel like this is a straight forward answer to roaches. Nerfing HP would make them a shitty hydralisks with less DPS. Nerfing 1 armor doesn't deserve a whole 1 supply drop. Making it faster won't address baneling bs in zvz.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the timeline for roaches went something like:
Roaches are too good
Nerf Roaches stats
Nerf Roaches upgrades
Okay.. i mean they arent as good but they are pretty okay now. Not imba because of insane regen and health and armor
Make Roaches 2 supply
wat
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Do you remember the zerg games before patch 12? Mass Roaches, nothing else. Whats a good strat before patch 12? Well mass roach. It had to be fixed, new strats need to be discovered for zerg, thats all.
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Not all races are the same, Zerg obviously isn't about unit diversity. Sure they could probably use some slight buffs, but they're not broken right now. Just look at IdrA's 89% win rate.
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EPT
