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On August 05 2010 05:29 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Why wouldnt 1 supply roach work at all? It was 1 supply before patch 12 and close to noone was whining about roaches at that point since it was standard to counter them easy after armor/regeneration nerfs.
Are you serious? Because if so you just weren't paying attention 1 supply roaches were rather stupidly overpowered kind of why Idra went fast expo hatch first into mass roaches every game even on steppes of war. Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Show me the games with roach usage please by top players especially where zerg doesnt get steam rolled, I would be delighted. Pretty please.
Oh and heres a replay too lazy to find you more but it happened last night SLush vs LzGamer is that a high enough level game for you? http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/suggy-vs-lzgamer-lost-temple
Do you have the rep of game 3 on Metalopolis? I'm thinking of using it in the weekly SC2 column.
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People say "It is not about the units..." but it is entirely about the units. All the jargon the BW community has made up over the years (e.g. macro and micro) is just that, jargon. Fundamentally, RTS games revolve around units and economy. RTS games are played with balancing growing your economy versus growing your number of units. This is still the skeleton behind Starcraft 2.
I switched to Terran from Zerg because I was not having fun (even though I could win games). I asked myself, "Why is this? Why am I not having fun? Why do I seem to be so... on edge?"
The OP nailed the problem with there being very few build options for the Zerg. Though, the OP's solution of bringing roach supply back to 1 is not a good idea at all. The solution is to put the Zerg race back into the oven so it can be properly baked. Being the last race, and despite the changes made to Zerg during the beta, the Zerg race has not fully been 'cooked' yet.
My experience with the Zerg has been all my games being very 'samey' with very little viable differences in how to play. The other races seem to have all these 'cool toys' to harass you with. While you have speedlings and mutas, which are fun to zip around the map due to their speed, I feel that Zerg is the most immobile race in the game. Since Starcraft 2 is so fast and so much relies on speed, being able to move around is extremely important.
Some say that creep makes Zerg 'more mobile', but it is the opposite. As TLO said, a unit like hydralisks is not very good off the creep. The definition of 'mobile' means being able to move around quickly and being confined to creep, no matter how far you grow it out, still means you are not being mobile.
Playing as Terran now, I absolutely love their mobility. I can do drops extremely quickly (Zerg dropships are the slowest in the game). The hellions are the fastest unit in the game outside of speedlings (who get roasted to hellion fire). Compare the cost and you have one hellion for the price of four zerglings. Which can kill harvestors faster and more successful? Which ages better as the game goes on? Other Terran mobility is the stimmed bio-mass who can zip up ramps and really run up to your opponent without warning. Vikings are pretty fast and can land anywhere, even on ledges. Reapers are an extremely mobile unit who can take out a mineral line very fast. Best of all, Terrans have flying buildings. What is more mobile than that? (The myth of Terran immobility is not because Zerg players have not realized 'Zerg mobility', but that most noobs are Terrans who have a bad habit of turtling with siege tanks and walled off bases.)
Protoss also have awesome mobility. Stalkers can blink onto ledges making them a pain to opponents. All gateway units can warp in at any pylon, even across the map! Warp Prism allows warping in from an air unit!
I think uninteresting units and lack of mobility are Zerg's biggest problems. To those that say, "Stop comparing units, it isn't about units," these people are trying to sound smart but aren't. It is about units because that is what the races fight with in the game.
Zerg can win games; that is not the point. The basic skeleton of a race is already with Zerg. Zerg has their anti-air units, their air units, their ground units, and so on. But Blizzard has only made the effort to make the basic skeleton. There needs to be more options. There needs to be more mobility for the Zerg. Imagine if Terran didn't have reapers, banshees, flying buildings, transforming Vikings, hellions and ghosts. Could the race still win games? Most certainly. But there would be far less options and far less mobility. The race would not be as much fun to play. Imagine taking away the warp gates and warp prism for the Protoss. The race would still win games, but the race would not be as fun to play.
This is where the Zerg is today. The race has the basic skeleton there. But that is all. When playing Zerg, I felt always on 'edge' as if screwing up even making an extra drone would cost me a game (because it could). It was also extremely hard to be aggressive early (i.e. lack of mobility) because it was difficult to keep up making a decent economy and Zerg units move so slow (except for speedlings and mutalisks).
It isn't that the Zerg race is 'unbalanced' or 'broken' so much as it is 'unfinished'. The race is, by far, the least fun to play out of all three races and that, alone, should be alarming to Blizzard.
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You said slush vs Lz, but you linked suggy vs Lz.
(didn't catch the suggy game)
If it is the first one,+ Show Spoiler +
what is supposed to say? That it is possible for terran to throw a game away?
He just stayed on MMM the whole game with some vikings wich he did absolutely nothing with, and let zerg come back after that early hellion harass.
He never ever bothered getting the xel'naga towers.
I don't see what this game is supposed to point out, except that you shouldn't spam MMM only for a whole game.
I do think that Lz is a high-level player, I just think he played that game out very poorly compared to what is possible/how he normally plays
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On August 05 2010 05:32 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:29 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Why wouldnt 1 supply roach work at all? It was 1 supply before patch 12 and close to noone was whining about roaches at that point since it was standard to counter them easy after armor/regeneration nerfs.
Are you serious? Because if so you just weren't paying attention 1 supply roaches were rather stupidly overpowered kind of why Idra went fast expo hatch first into mass roaches every game even on steppes of war. On August 05 2010 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Show me the games with roach usage please by top players especially where zerg doesnt get steam rolled, I would be delighted. Pretty please.
Oh and heres a replay too lazy to find you more but it happened last night SLush vs LzGamer is that a high enough level game for you? http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/suggy-vs-lzgamer-lost-temple Do you have the rep of game 3 on Metalopolis? I'm thinking of using it in the weekly SC2 column.
http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/slush-vs-lzgamer-metalopolis
There you go, uploaded game 2 as well just in case
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On August 05 2010 05:35 Icx wrote:
You said slush vs Lz, but you linked suggy vs Lz.
(didn't catch the suggy game)
If it is the first one, what is supposed to say? That it is possible for terran to throw a game away?
He just stayed on MMM the whole game with some vikings wich he did absolutely nothing with, and let zerg come back after that early hellion harass.
He never ever bothered getting the xel'naga towers.
I don't see what this game is supposed to point out, except that you shouldn't spam MMM only for a whole game.
I do think that Lz is a high-level player, I just think he played that game out very poorly compared to what is possible/how he normally plays
Oops thats SLush I typod it on the website heres the right link
http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/slush-vs-lzgamer-lost-temple
and thats game 3 not game 1, the one I Linked was him breaking deflecting reapers with 3 roaches just 3, then breaking his mech push in the middle with mass roach and 1 ultra
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On August 05 2010 05:33 Macavity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People say "It is not about the units..." but it is entirely about the units. All the jargon the BW community has made up over the years (e.g. macro and micro) is just that, jargon. Fundamentally, RTS games revolve around units and economy. RTS games are played with balancing growing your economy versus growing your number of units. This is still the skeleton behind Starcraft 2.
I switched to Terran from Zerg because I was not having fun (even though I could win games). I asked myself, "Why is this? Why am I not having fun? Why do I seem to be so... on edge?"
The OP nailed the problem with there being very few build options for the Zerg. Though, the OP's solution of bringing roach supply back to 1 is not a good idea at all. The solution is to put the Zerg race back into the oven so it can be properly baked. Being the last race, and despite the changes made to Zerg during the beta, the Zerg race has not fully been 'cooked' yet.
My experience with the Zerg has been all my games being very 'samey' with very little viable differences in how to play. The other races seem to have all these 'cool toys' to harass you with. While you have speedlings and mutas, which are fun to zip around the map due to their speed, I feel that Zerg is the most immobile race in the game. Since Starcraft 2 is so fast and so much relies on speed, being able to move around is extremely important.
Some say that creep makes Zerg 'more mobile', but it is the opposite. As TLO said, a unit like hydralisks is not very good off the creep. The definition of 'mobile' means being able to move around quickly and being confined to creep, no matter how far you grow it out, still means you are not being mobile.
Playing as Terran now, I absolutely love their mobility. I can do drops extremely quickly (Zerg dropships are the slowest in the game). The hellions are the fastest unit in the game outside of speedlings (who get roasted to hellion fire). Compare the cost and you have one hellion for the price of four zerglings. Which can kill harvestors faster and more successful? Which ages better as the game goes on? Other Terran mobility is the stimmed bio-mass who can zip up ramps and really run up to your opponent without warning. Vikings are pretty fast and can land anywhere, even on ledges. Reapers are an extremely mobile unit who can take out a mineral line very fast. Best of all, Terrans have flying buildings. What is more mobile than that? (The myth of Terran immobility is not because Zerg players have not realized 'Zerg mobility', but that most noobs are Terrans who have a bad habit of turtling with siege tanks and walled off bases.)
Protoss also have awesome mobility. Stalkers can blink onto ledges making them a pain to opponents. All gateway units can warp in at any pylon, even across the map! Warp Prism allows warping in from an air unit!
I think uninteresting units and lack of mobility are Zerg's biggest problems. To those that say, "Stop comparing units, it isn't about units," these people are trying to sound smart but aren't. It is about units because that is what the races fight with in the game.
Zerg can win games; that is not the point. The basic skeleton of a race is already with Zerg. Zerg has their anti-air units, their air units, their ground units, and so on. But Blizzard has only made the effort to make the basic skeleton. There needs to be more options. There needs to be more mobility for the Zerg. Imagine if Terran didn't have reapers, banshees, flying buildings, transforming Vikings, hellions and ghosts. Could the race still win games? Most certainly. But there would be far less options and far less mobility. The race would not be as much fun to play. Imagine taking away the warp gates and warp prism for the Protoss. The race would still win games, but the race would not be as fun to play.
This is where the Zerg is today. The race has the basic skeleton there. But that is all. When playing Zerg, I felt always on 'edge' as if screwing up even making an extra drone would cost me a game (because it could). It was also extremely hard to be aggressive early (i.e. lack of mobility) because it was difficult to keep up making a decent economy and Zerg units move so slow (except for speedlings and mutalisks).
It isn't that the Zerg race is 'unbalanced' or 'broken' so much as it is 'unfinished'. The race is, by far, the least fun to play out of all three races and that, alone, should be alarming to Blizzard.
I disagree about Zerg immobility, but I do agree that Terran and Protoss have the ability to be extremely mobile, depending on how you choose to play. So many people talk about Terran immobility when the race itself is actually extremely mobile, it's just that their playstyle isn't.
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all in all zerg is a joke atm.
i dun think 1supply roach alone will change much about it. (1,5 supply might really be a good thing..)
anyway, the whole race is a mess, u dont have ANY viable opener except the decision whether u go 1 base or instant 2 base..(or all-in / 6 pool.. yea nice..) afterwards all u do is scout and wait which kind of harass u have to defend against and try to mass units to overrun your enemy. furthermore its pretty hard to bunker yourself as a zerg, especially since they are still incredibly weak against invisible units AND air-units early on. its not like i lose everygame.. im fine.. BUT ITS BORING. and frustrating.
plus u dont have many options on harassment. yea u can runby some lings if your opponent is stupid enough to open his choke/ramp. and yea later on there is the ultra slow nydus or drop option. still, thats about it against any type of defense player.
besides zerg has NOT ONE surprising or gamechanging harass unit and the only long range/splash units are sooo high in tech tree and expensive that it takes ages to get em. they also dont have any invisible units, at least none which can attack and u dont have any unit that can jump/walk on/over cliffs. its almost impossible for a NON-diamond-200+apm-player to harass your enemys base EFFECTIVELY, expecially against a bunkering terran. and dont gimme that infestor crap, they where nice once, but since the nerf all u can do is spam fungal (which is, yes, useful sometimes) before they get sniped..
and the funniest thing is, once u and your enemy are at 200supply and it comes to battle, it almost doesnt matter which unit combination you have, u will certainly lose the big battle in a ridicoulous manner, at least if your foe toss/terra insnt retarded, and even if u can resupply faster than the other races u still will lose big parts of your main or at least some expos during to the follow up of your foe,... which makes me lose like, A LOT.
all in all, the swarm keeps to frustrate and disappoint me everyday. (props to idra for reigning with the totally defective and boring swarm.)
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On August 05 2010 05:33 Macavity wrote:
It isn't that the Zerg race is 'unbalanced' or 'broken' so much as it is 'unfinished'. The race is, by far, the least fun to play out of all three races and that, alone, should be alarming to Blizzard.
i totally agree. good post dude.
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i would like to see them changed a bit, like melee range and more armor/hp
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On August 05 2010 05:37 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:33 Macavity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People say "It is not about the units..." but it is entirely about the units. All the jargon the BW community has made up over the years (e.g. macro and micro) is just that, jargon. Fundamentally, RTS games revolve around units and economy. RTS games are played with balancing growing your economy versus growing your number of units. This is still the skeleton behind Starcraft 2.
I switched to Terran from Zerg because I was not having fun (even though I could win games). I asked myself, "Why is this? Why am I not having fun? Why do I seem to be so... on edge?"
The OP nailed the problem with there being very few build options for the Zerg. Though, the OP's solution of bringing roach supply back to 1 is not a good idea at all. The solution is to put the Zerg race back into the oven so it can be properly baked. Being the last race, and despite the changes made to Zerg during the beta, the Zerg race has not fully been 'cooked' yet.
My experience with the Zerg has been all my games being very 'samey' with very little viable differences in how to play. The other races seem to have all these 'cool toys' to harass you with. While you have speedlings and mutas, which are fun to zip around the map due to their speed, I feel that Zerg is the most immobile race in the game. Since Starcraft 2 is so fast and so much relies on speed, being able to move around is extremely important.
Some say that creep makes Zerg 'more mobile', but it is the opposite. As TLO said, a unit like hydralisks is not very good off the creep. The definition of 'mobile' means being able to move around quickly and being confined to creep, no matter how far you grow it out, still means you are not being mobile.
Playing as Terran now, I absolutely love their mobility. I can do drops extremely quickly (Zerg dropships are the slowest in the game). The hellions are the fastest unit in the game outside of speedlings (who get roasted to hellion fire). Compare the cost and you have one hellion for the price of four zerglings. Which can kill harvestors faster and more successful? Which ages better as the game goes on? Other Terran mobility is the stimmed bio-mass who can zip up ramps and really run up to your opponent without warning. Vikings are pretty fast and can land anywhere, even on ledges. Reapers are an extremely mobile unit who can take out a mineral line very fast. Best of all, Terrans have flying buildings. What is more mobile than that? (The myth of Terran immobility is not because Zerg players have not realized 'Zerg mobility', but that most noobs are Terrans who have a bad habit of turtling with siege tanks and walled off bases.)
Protoss also have awesome mobility. Stalkers can blink onto ledges making them a pain to opponents. All gateway units can warp in at any pylon, even across the map! Warp Prism allows warping in from an air unit!
I think uninteresting units and lack of mobility are Zerg's biggest problems. To those that say, "Stop comparing units, it isn't about units," these people are trying to sound smart but aren't. It is about units because that is what the races fight with in the game.
Zerg can win games; that is not the point. The basic skeleton of a race is already with Zerg. Zerg has their anti-air units, their air units, their ground units, and so on. But Blizzard has only made the effort to make the basic skeleton. There needs to be more options. There needs to be more mobility for the Zerg. Imagine if Terran didn't have reapers, banshees, flying buildings, transforming Vikings, hellions and ghosts. Could the race still win games? Most certainly. But there would be far less options and far less mobility. The race would not be as much fun to play. Imagine taking away the warp gates and warp prism for the Protoss. The race would still win games, but the race would not be as fun to play.
This is where the Zerg is today. The race has the basic skeleton there. But that is all. When playing Zerg, I felt always on 'edge' as if screwing up even making an extra drone would cost me a game (because it could). It was also extremely hard to be aggressive early (i.e. lack of mobility) because it was difficult to keep up making a decent economy and Zerg units move so slow (except for speedlings and mutalisks).
It isn't that the Zerg race is 'unbalanced' or 'broken' so much as it is 'unfinished'. The race is, by far, the least fun to play out of all three races and that, alone, should be alarming to Blizzard. I disagree about Zerg immobility, but I do agree that Terran and Protoss have the ability to be extremely mobile, depending on how you choose to play. So many people talk about Terran immobility when the race itself is actually extremely mobile, it's just that their playstyle isn't.
I think the problem is not so much a lack of zerg mobility, as a lack of zerg's ability to deal with the new and devastating protoss and terran mobility. Reapers, colossi, medivacs, blink stalkers, hellions - all nasty and devastating units for zerg to deal with. Zerg's mobile solutions? Lings, speed upgraded roaches or banelings, mutalisks, nydus, drop. Notice how only 1 of those is before lair tech. Notice how reapers and hellions are before lair tech options are finished (and in some cases medivacs and even blink stalkers too!). Zerg just doesn't have early mobility anymore, and that really really hurts vs terran. Midgame/lategame I think zerg mobility is fine, if not superior. They just are often are hindered in some way from early game.
Now, in BW zerg often had no mobility early on too, and terran had a mobile attack force. However, the solution was pretty universal - sunkens. Sunkens could fend off any bio aggression, could keep vultures away, and did so 100% of the time. The best part - sunkens fit into any zerg opening/strategy. They were well suited to zerg's T2 aggression play, since they didn't take gas or supply.
In SC2 the universal answer is speedlings, to an extent (speedlings + crawlers vs upgraded/large numbers of hellions/reapers, with queens as well). However, speedlings do not fit into many builds. Speedlings are also not economical since they take larva, supply, and gas for the tech. Therefore, you get the problem of zerg early game limitation.
The solutions are really to nerf reapers (since they only really muck up TvZ, that's fine to do). Zerg can't fight reapers right now without opening speedling. This needs to be fixed.
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On August 05 2010 01:24 Piy wrote:
Ultralisks are ridiculously strong in the current build you know. The Roach nerf make holding off some early terran pressure hard, but that's a general problem not just an issue with the roach.
Go make some ultralisks, they just rape everything terran makes currently.
Neural Parasite is still devastating against Thor builds and harass.
I agree ZvZ sucks though
ultralisk vs stimmed marines
guess what? the marines win.
no, ultras do not rape everything terran makes currently.
neural parasite is no devastating against thor builds and harass. you can keep that thor a couple seconds which will give you the edge for 12 seconds, either the enemy has the option to pull back, OR they'll just keep on since you're just gonna afford 2-3 neural parasites at a time and then not be able to use it for a REALLY long time thanks to the current cost.
ZvZ does suck.
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Is it really that case that everyone thinks Z is the most boring race to play of all? I don't personally think so, but it seems many do
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On August 05 2010 05:36 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:35 Icx wrote:
You said slush vs Lz, but you linked suggy vs Lz.
(didn't catch the suggy game)
If it is the first one, what is supposed to say? That it is possible for terran to throw a game away?
He just stayed on MMM the whole game with some vikings wich he did absolutely nothing with, and let zerg come back after that early hellion harass.
He never ever bothered getting the xel'naga towers.
I don't see what this game is supposed to point out, except that you shouldn't spam MMM only for a whole game.
I do think that Lz is a high-level player, I just think he played that game out very poorly compared to what is possible/how he normally plays Oops thats SLush I typod it on the website heres the right link http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/slush-vs-lzgamer-lost-templeand thats game 3 not game 1, the one I Linked was him breaking deflecting reapers with 3 roaches just 3, then breaking his mech push in the middle with mass roach and 1 ultra
Correct me if Im wrong, but LzGamer is known for going mass rax-reaper? :D Or was it Satini ;/ Seems like a pretty obvious choice to counter a specfic player.
Also no offence, but we are discussing mid game pushes by Terran, and besides repeaer harras Lz didint attack once whole game.
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On August 05 2010 06:12 lindn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:24 Piy wrote:
Ultralisks are ridiculously strong in the current build you know. The Roach nerf make holding off some early terran pressure hard, but that's a general problem not just an issue with the roach.
Go make some ultralisks, they just rape everything terran makes currently.
Neural Parasite is still devastating against Thor builds and harass.
I agree ZvZ sucks though ultralisk vs stimmed marines guess what? the marines win.
This is just not true. Even with stim, the damage marines do against ultras(assuming requisite +2 armour upgrade) is so low that they need at least a 10:1 ratio to stand a chance, and the damage taken from stim actually improves the efficacy of the ultra's splash.
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On August 05 2010 06:20 Jenslyn87 wrote:
Is it really that case that everyone thinks Z is the most boring race to play of all? I don't personally think so, but it seems many do
The race doesnt feel complete at all.
Both protoss and terran got shiny new toys to use that make them more powerful and more exciting to play while still keeping their core racial identity intact. The zerg is like that disfigured person everyone tries to say is all right but know really isn't.
Zerg don't feel like zerg, and Zerg didn't really get any new unit of value that makes their gameplay more exciting. Broodlord is just a better guardian, Roach is an uninspiring unit, Baneling is just a ground based scourge, infestor has been nerfed 10 ways to sunday and it's just a worse defiler.
When I look at the Zerg race I don't see the creativity that went into the other races. Zerg lost that swarmy feel on top of losing anything unique that made them fun to play.
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On August 05 2010 06:20 Jenslyn87 wrote:
Is it really that case that everyone thinks Z is the most boring race to play of all? I don't personally think so, but it seems many do
Zerg is super exciting to play imo. Because every move you make can lose you the game. Reach up to scratch your face? OVER! Have a friend login notification pop up for 2 second and lose focus? OVER!
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why are 90% of the posters in this thread terran players
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On August 05 2010 06:29 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:36 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:On August 05 2010 05:35 Icx wrote:
You said slush vs Lz, but you linked suggy vs Lz.
(didn't catch the suggy game)
If it is the first one, what is supposed to say? That it is possible for terran to throw a game away?
He just stayed on MMM the whole game with some vikings wich he did absolutely nothing with, and let zerg come back after that early hellion harass.
He never ever bothered getting the xel'naga towers.
I don't see what this game is supposed to point out, except that you shouldn't spam MMM only for a whole game.
I do think that Lz is a high-level player, I just think he played that game out very poorly compared to what is possible/how he normally plays Oops thats SLush I typod it on the website heres the right link http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/slush-vs-lzgamer-lost-templeand thats game 3 not game 1, the one I Linked was him breaking deflecting reapers with 3 roaches just 3, then breaking his mech push in the middle with mass roach and 1 ultra Correct me if Im wrong, but LzGamer is known for going mass rax-reaper? :D Or was it Satini ;/ Seems like a pretty obvious choice to counter a specfic player. Also no offence, but we are discussing mid game pushes by Terran, and besides repeaer harras Lz didint attack once whole game.
Roach/ling is often used to stop Terran 1 base attacks. An example VOD would be Cool vs Maka in the 17173.com World Tournament (it's kind of outdated, but it's recent enough to be relevant, I think). Linky. The point is roaches are still viable in the early game, though not as strong before, and of course the Zerg lategame suffers because of the nerf as well. But that doesn't mean they're not used.
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Unless I'm sorely mistaken, the Zerg seem to be missing a spellcaster: Protoss - Sentry, Templar;
Terran - Ghost, Raven; Zerg - Infestor, ?
Queen is the Zerg's macro mechanic. Overlord/Overseer ?
Another Zerg spellcaster would bring greater "life" to Zerg play. Unfortunately it isn't going to happen, at least until the next expansion anyway.
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EPT
