EPTView: Roach nerf was a mistake. - Page 14
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wholegrain
Canada30 Posts
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iNdEMAND
130 Posts
On August 05 2010 08:25 wholegrain wrote: I think there should be a speed upgrade for roaches. there is... is there not?... | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2010 08:25 wholegrain wrote: I think there should be a speed upgrade for roaches. Then what's Glial Reconstruction? | ||
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wholegrain
Canada30 Posts
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
On August 05 2010 08:32 wholegrain wrote: lol i dont make roaches often. i only go muta and zerglings since roaches get owned pretty hard in 4v4. Then why are you posting? Anyway, I would definitely support some kind of buff for the roach, although as others said I think making them 1 supply would be too much for late game. But I think they definitely need to be stronger early game. | ||
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aznhockeyboy16
United States558 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On August 05 2010 07:04 Drowsy wrote: I think this is a pretty good idea actually. Then terran/protoss will probably whine about void/banshee cheese being totally useless vs zerg though. Hydra would need to be significantly weaker though or pvz wouldn't be very fair. If only... PLease think a bit before this suggestions. Hydras as tier 1, and roaches as tier 2 would be a HUGE nerf to zerg. Why? Well. Mass hellions would actually work. Or you could just to a thor/hellion push. Right now the only zerg counter to that is mass roaches. Hydras are crap vs terran. | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
I'm dubious that roaches really need that extra 1 armor to be viable (the extra armor wouldn't give them an edge against heavy-hitting mech and would only make them counter marines and zealots harder, which they don't really need). I also don't think that they can have their supply reduced to 1 again unless they took a heavy, heavy hit to their stats (reduced damage, no armor, possibly reduced hitpoints -- they'd have to be a slightly more tanky marine). I feel like forcing the opponent to need detection to fight roaches earlier (i.e., once Lair is reached and burrow is researched) is enough. While they're getting detection, it gives Zerg all the time and map control it really needs to get to T3 answers to heavy mech mid-games and immortal/colossi without being forced to go mutalisk. EDIT: Typos. SECOND EDIT: How gamebreaking would it be for Glial Reconstruction to be accessible before Lair as well? I can understand why burrow upgrades are postponed until Lair (they'd be overpowered too early), but I don't understand why roach speed is so delayed when zergling speed is not. | ||
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stk01001
United States786 Posts
I feel a simple change like making the roach 1.5 supply has the potential to fix the issues with t v z.. i was also thinking they should increase the research time for O/L speed & drop to allow for quicker drop play vs terran... dropping roaches onto tanks is a good way to balance out the fight especially when the tanks get up in numbers where its basically impossible to approach with a ground army off creep w/o getting slaughtered.. | ||
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lindn
Sweden833 Posts
On August 05 2010 08:22 Kantutan wrote: Not all races are the same, Zerg obviously isn't about unit diversity. Sure they could probably use some slight buffs, but they're not broken right now. Just look at IdrA's 89% win rate. zerg don't need a major buff, they just need to be fixed rather than buffed cause of the rather... boring way a zerg has to play right now. for me right now it's like: is it ZvZ? well get banelings, mass lings and try to stay over the enemies drone count and try to end this quickly before i slit my wrists out of boredom and anger over one baneling killing 8 lings is he going air?: go hydra is the terran going mech?: brood lords quickly or gg-f10-n is the terran going bio? go mutaling baneling and make him rage over the fact that he didn't go mech is the protoss doing early pressure? put up crawlers and defend the push then just mass hydras till you got enough to faceroll him is the protoss not going early pressure? shame on him cause i'll just go mass drone and mass hydras till i've got enough to faceroll him. of course i'm not on top diamond level but this is currently what i go trough daily and it's quite boring tbh, especially seeing how slow hydras are and the fact that you have to mass them to actually have a chance against anything right now. i want to have a army that's not just mass hydra for once. i want to use speedlings together with my hydras but all they're really good for right now is if the toss did not bring zealots or if the terran did not go mech. i want to use roaches but unless it's early protoss pressure then hydra mass will be just as effective and less of a pain on the food count. i want to use infestors, but the current way the maps are SOOOO small that my hydra mass will block my infestors so that i either won't use them (unless air are present) or use burrow to try to get in range (at which they'll be sniped off) i want to use ultralisks, but massing hydras is way faster to reinforce your mass hydra army than making ultralisks since their build time takes AGES and the fact that the hydra army will just block the ultralisks from getting to the front. i want to use broodlords for other things than terran mech, but nah, they're just there today for terran mech. i want to use banelings for other things than ZvZ and terran stupid enough to not go mech other builds are possible but well... hydras are the only functional part of the swarm for me, some people might disagree. but at the same time them being actually functional, they're also extremely immobile, their off creep speed is CRAAAAZY slow. unless it's steppes i can't get a few over there and put pressure on the enemy unless i've got shitloads of creep tumours and the enemy doesn't give a crap about killing them and even if it IS steppes and creep is not there, i'd still be so slow that the enemy would be able to put up a good defence before they even get there. blahblahblah /rant /rant /rant | ||
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triumph
United States100 Posts
On August 05 2010 07:52 Sieziggy wrote: Cliffwalking would be massively OP. At T2.5? Nah. Just massively fun. | ||
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gdroxor
United States639 Posts
On August 05 2010 04:27 graphene wrote: lol, no they arent, wtf bo are u playing make 3 stalkers :D Then, O Mighty One, why do 9 out of 10 Zerg I play, regardless of what they scout me doing, go mass roaches as soon as they can? | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
On August 05 2010 09:44 gdroxor wrote: Then, O Mighty One, why do 9 out of 10 Zerg I play, regardless of what they scout me doing, go mass roaches as soon as they can? Im guessing its because you don't play in diamond or platinum league? Either that or you dont have many BO's and your BO's just happen to be weak against Roaches. | ||
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
@ultras tier 2 ultras is kinda too strong, plus u wont be able to support the money on it @neural parasite i think the change was needed (from infinite) mana cost? id say 75 would be fair. what they should do now is prob extend the range of it or also enable infestor to cast ne spell while burrowed | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On August 05 2010 08:22 Kantutan wrote: Not all races are the same, Zerg obviously isn't about unit diversity. Sure they could probably use some slight buffs, but they're not broken right now. Just look at IdrA's 89% win rate. You're using Idra's winrate as an example of Zerg being balanced? His mechanics are so far beyond even the average DIAMOND league player that he can win based on that alone. This is not an adequate example of racial balance when Idra even self admits that ZvT is a stupid matchup. | ||
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Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
Unit Breakdown: + Show Spoiler + I would define offensive casters as units with more than 1 spell. at least one of which is used in battle to directly support your army. Terran: 13 Total Units 2 non combat (scv medvac) 11 Army Units. 6 with mana (ghost medvac thor bc banshee raven) 2 offensive casters (raven, ghost), 2 cloak unit (ghost banshee) Protoss: 15 Total Units 2 non-combat (obs, warp prism) 13 Army Units 4 with mana (moship, HT, pheonix, sentry) 3 offensive casters (moship, HT, sentry) 1 cloak unit (DT) Zerg: 15 Total Units 5 non combat (larvae drone ovi nydus overseer) 10 Army Units 4 With mana (queen corrupter infestor overseer) 2 offensive casters (queen, infestor) debatable cloak units, but I would count roach and infestor. Using Terran as comparison, Protoss weakness lies in not being able to "mass" units. To compensate for this, they get one more offensive caster, and +2 army units to spruce up army diversity. Zerg weakness lies in the opposite end. They loose out on army diversity (10 army units) but gain mobility and therefore map control. The message is clear from blizzard, zerg innovation should be on clever positioning, and not army composition. You should be using creep, ovi drop, and nydus to increase the mobility of your main army. More flanking, and less 1 line vs 1 line clash battles. The money question is: Is the mobility trade off worth the loss in army diversity? If your answer is no, then in your heart, you are not a zerg player. You may have been one in starcraft one, but you are not in starcraft 2. You may be an infested terran player, or even an infested protoss player, but at the end of the day, you are not true zerg. If your answer is yes, then you are not my target audience, and you are not bitching about zerg, and this probably doesnt bug you all that much. So, to all my infested brethren who desire to be zerg but just cant seem to embrace it all, let us divine. The core of "what makes zerg boring" is that players don't innovate enough on positioning. And I will be first among many to admit that it is hard. Creep generation takes a long time, nydus requires a lot of cash investment, dies to player awareness and gets poked to death by probes, and overlord drop takes forever research and set up. See? Zerg sucks! NO! You are doing it wrong. Because zerg is so damn positioning centric, they suffer the most from lumping your army into a giant-one-control-group-ball. While I am not a uber gosu 250APM hax player, here are some thoughts on how to innovate on positioning. - Take the time to spread your army out in chunks away from your base, so that when the hammer hits your front door, you can 1a everything and they will do the perfect circle surround. - Dont use one control group. - Abuse infestor fungal growth more before The Big Clash to stall pushes and maximize damage. - Make all your overlords diarrhea creep all the time, there is no reason not to - You can "tag" an overlord to your army and have it crap creep everywhere your army is. - Nydus OUTSIDE their base. Nydus should be used to make your army ninja. Nydus like a protoss player spreads his pylons. You want your nydus mouths to be far apart and kept alive. Shoving a nydus straight up someone's mineral line is like trying to surprise backdoor a 7ft angry meathead hulk. It will not work and he will punch your nydus so hard, the unhatched eggs at your hatchery will scrunch up. But all this does not address the fact that zerg early game feels horribly restricted. You have two choices. You want to enjoy the life of a nice caterpillar. You just want to be left alone, weave your cocoon of defensive lings and sunkens, and morph to lair asap so that you can spread wings and actually do something other than mine minerals. Or you can praise your holy-deity-of-choice and go for some all in baneling/roach bust thing. Zergs feel binary. Between attacking and defending, there is no middle ground of harassing and building up. If we were to add one unit to zerg, what role would it satisfy? Should it be a caster, a damage dealer, or another passive support unit? Personally, I would like to see another caster unit. The queen and overseer just dont benefit an army the same way. Zerg, which focuses so much on army positioning, has nothing to scale cliffs, this seems very odd. I would like to see something that can be casted on units to enable one-way scaling of cliffs. Call it brittle climbing claws or something. Hopefully it can be incorporated into the early game somehow to allow for cute not-too-deadly harass, like getting 3-4 lings into someone's base. But not early enough so that you can bumrush someone going FE without cannons in the main. At the end of the day I dont feel qualified enough or creative enough to think of some unit to satisfy the hole in the swarm, but I hope i've put out enough ideas to convince people that zerg isnt quite as stale as you think, but just needs to be played differently from protoss and terran. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
I say make the zealot 1.5 supply while we are at it! | ||
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Khalleb
Canada1909 Posts
On August 05 2010 01:34 Defrag wrote: I never said they were bad, they just dont come fast enough compared to other races. Do you ever see a mid-game push with speedlings/hydralisk and 1-2 ultras by zerg, as compared to 3gate/1 robo or 2 factory marine/hellion/thor ? :D the equivalent of toss and terran in term of tech tree is carrier and bc btw | ||
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