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On August 05 2010 02:31 aseq wrote:
I don't see how 1 supply difference can make the Roach unusable.
8 supply = 100 minerals, 1 supply (the difference) = 12.5 minerals per roach.
So it goes from 75/25 to 88.5/25, also a 12.5% increase in cost. That may sound like a lot (not really imo) but I don't think it is much either: just as much as a single attack upgrade.
Surely the higher level players can keep up with the overlord count, and I just don't believe available larva would be a problem for those. I'd be okay with: 1 supply, but damage reduced to 14.
Thats over 18% more expensive.
If you don't see how this could break a unit then try playing with 180 Mineral Stalkers or 120 Mineral Marauders and then come back and say this did not make the unit much weaker. Oh and you really feel the Larva sometimes.
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Roaches can still counter mech. Keep in mind that with +1 armor upgraded, they can survive 4 tank shots instead of 3. If you burrow move them, I'm sure they can even take a few more rounds than that, and at that point they have to choose between shooting your roaches to stop them from unburrowing under their tanks or focusing on the zergling/hydra/whatever army behind it... and if they don't have detection, they're boned either way. They also made burrow movement much more effective since tunneling claws upgrades their health regeneration as well instead of needing the separate upgrade at t3.
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On August 05 2010 02:22 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D Saracen would pretty much wipe metalopolis concrete with your face kid. Unless you've won something big, don't argue with your credentials around here.
He may be better than me, but it doesn't mean his argument is right. As simple as that.
Post starter is a better player than probably any1 in this post, does it mean only his argument is correct, and others who doesn't agree with him are wrong?
Or do you agree with his brilliant idea that 'back then, mass roach = win'? :D
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On August 05 2010 02:24 Velr wrote:
Roach speed to T1 please as a very fast upgrade...
"Some" upgrade on T2 or 3 to make them viable in lategame but i honestly have problems to think of a "good" idea.
This please. Roaches are almost purely defensive units for me unit I get speed and creep spread.
For lategame viability I'd like to see the roach get +2 armor per upgrade rather than +1.
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On August 05 2010 02:31 aseq wrote:
I don't see how 1 supply difference can make the Roach unusable.
8 supply = 100 minerals, 1 supply (the difference) = 12.5 minerals per roach.
So it goes from 75/25 to 88.5/25, also a 12.5% increase in cost. That may sound like a lot (not really imo) but I don't think it is much either: just as much as a single attack upgrade.
Surely the higher level players can keep up with the overlord count, and I just don't believe available larva would be a problem for those. I'd be okay with: 1 supply, but damage reduced to 14.
Uhm The difference between a 200 army with 2 food roach and a 200 army with 1 food roach is huge.
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On August 05 2010 02:31 aseq wrote:
I don't see how 1 supply difference can make the Roach unusable.
8 supply = 100 minerals, 1 supply (the difference) = 12.5 minerals per roach.
So it goes from 75/25 to 88.5/25, also a 12.5% increase in cost. That may sound like a lot (not really imo) but I don't think it is much either: just as much as a single attack upgrade.
Surely the higher level players can keep up with the overlord count, and I just don't believe available larva would be a problem for those. I'd be okay with: 1 supply, but damage reduced to 14.
Look at it other way.
Every 4 roaches early game you need new overlord, which basically means additional 25 mineral per roach.
That's 2 drones, that you could have made otherwise of Overlord, and those two workers add in to your economy big time in long-term.
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On August 05 2010 02:32 ZlaSHeR wrote:
ultras are the most underused unit right now they're insanely powerful.
Maybe because Zergs can't get Ultras before Timing Push of Death?
Sure,fix one unit. It won't do much,You need to fix ENTIRE race.
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A 200/200 army of 1 food roaches is too difficult for any race to deal with. That is why it was nerfed and that is why it will never be changed back again. Your statements of "roaches were fine at 1 food" are simply incorrect.
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Returning roaches to 1 supply would make going mass roach the correct play in many match ups. Would take a lot off the creativity out of playing zerg, zerg can't afford that considering there isn't much creativity in playing zerg already
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Ultra's arent underused they are incredibly hard to tech to while holding the minimum 3 bases you need to actually afford them. If a zerg could put out ultras like terrans put out thors it would be a different story
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I can't really speak to roaches and TvZ, but I think that roaches are just fine in PvZ right now. PvZ is an incredibly balanced, dynamic, and fun matchup -- probably the best in the game. Roaches have their uses in the early, mid, and late game against protoss players. In pre-patch 12 late game PvZ's, allowing the zerg to field an army of a zillion 1 supply roaches was retarded. Now, a zerg has to get ultras to have viable late game tanking. I think that this is a good change that improves zerg unit diversity and makes for better gameplay in general.
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I really think moving them to 1 food and 0 armor with a +2 armor upgrade at lair tech is a totally reasonable change to make- althought im sure other minor balance tweaks would need to be made in response to this- this could be a good change.
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On August 05 2010 02:43 floor exercise wrote:
Ultra's arent underused they are incredibly hard to tech to while holding the minimum 3 bases you need to actual afford them. If a zerg could put out ultras like terrans put out thors it would be a different story
One Thor makes BIG difference. Is a good ground DPS and hard counters light air... While one Ultra... Well... Um... Takes 5 seconds to get killed when focused?
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On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D
PM'd.
By the way, if you didn't realize by now, here's why your posts suck:
1. You call the statements of high level diamond players "copper league ideas" while questioning whether they really are good players.
2. You say everyone who thinks 1 supply roach is unfair doesn't understand the race when it's actually you who doesn't understand the race and it's production capabilities.
3. I correct you and you get all defensive, flaunting your big shot 1800+ rating.
4. You call me a troll because you refuse to believe the people you just made fun of are better than you.
5. You call me a bad player because I point out that you're wrong.
6. You're still trying to act like a big shot even though you're terrible.
7. But you still try to save face, saying "oh, even if I'm worse than you my argument still stands. Roach at 1 supply is totally fair because the Terran and Protoss have units that can counter roaches."
8. That argument is terrible because it doesn't take into consideration ANYTHING besides a Zerg getting pure roaches and the other race's reaction to that. You don't consider how the races work and interact with each other. You just see "omg marauders beat roaches on paper, ez balance."
9. You overuse the word troll, and it's annoying as hell. I don't know what internet shithole you crawled out from, but please don't bring their crap here.
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give roach 1 pop, make them only 2/1 upgradable and in the ending with max 2/2
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On August 05 2010 02:37 koswinner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:22 FortuneSyn wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D Saracen would pretty much wipe metalopolis concrete with your face kid. Unless you've won something big, don't argue with your credentials around here. He may be better than me, but it doesn't mean his argument is right. As simple as that. Post starter is a better player than probably any1 in this post, does it mean only his argument is correct, and others who doesn't agree with him are wrong? Or do you agree with his brilliant idea that 'back then, mass roach = win'? :D
If you had actually read the thread, you would have seen "my brilliant idea."
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When roaches were 1 supply I'd have very difficulty in the beginning for me. But in the end I just did mass contain and rushed either immortals/VR's or I went collosi.
But I did see mass roaches like 95% of all PvZ games so it might've been a big problem for most players.
The 1 to 2 supply nerf was kinda huge and affected PvZ for most people hugely.
I remember someone rushed me and had like 30 roaches by the time I only had about 10 zealots and 5 or so stalkers (in less than 7 minutes).
Letting the roach get to 1 supply isn't a good idea but it would be nice if they buffed zerg in other areas because most Zerg are all doing the same thing (FE/speedlings/spine crawlers/macro up/tech/hydra/tech/ ultra's if needed late game).
While P and especially T has diverse options.
@Latham
P also has it's fine share of nerfs ? :D only like minor buffs like Z but T has had huge buffs(baracks stim/cs upgrades for example)/
It looks like blizzard buffed Terran to make them more appealing and since it's the Terran campaign release and not Z and P.
@Saracen
Yes it wouldn't hurt if roach got to 1 supply but then like you said stats should be nerfed a little bit what you also pointed out.
And I agree that you don't see many NP (at least I don't see them often if not none anymore) in almost any game.
I'm a P player and I should say that seriously of all races Z is the race that got nerfed most and T most buffed. But still you see the top Z pro's still beating most T pro's but the lower skilled players are having trouble because they aren't like the pro's :p and thus have a hard time in certain MU's (T mech?).
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On August 05 2010 02:48 shannn wrote:
When roaches were 1 supply I'd have very difficulty in the beginning for me. But in the end I just did mass contain and rushed either immortals/VR's or I went collosi.
But I did see mass roaches like 95% of all PvZ games so it might've been a big problem for most players.
The 1 to 2 supply nerf was kinda huge and affected PvZ for most people hugely.
I remember someone rushed me and had like 30 roaches by the time I only had about 10 zealots and 5 or so stalkers (in less than 7 minutes).
Letting the roach get to 1 supply isn't a good idea but it would be nice if they buffed zerg in other areas because most Zerg are all doing the same thing (FE/speedlings/spine crawlers/macro up/tech/hydra/tech/ ultra's if needed late game).
While P and especially T has diverse options.
agreed.good post.
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maybe the hydra into tier 1.5, 1 [pop and making it weaker and buffing roaches and making them tier 2 idea would solve some problems. Change game too much imo
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delete roaches make hydra tier 1 and nerf em abit add lurkers zerg problem solved
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EPT
