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On August 05 2010 02:14 Arakash wrote:
how about doubling the cost for roaches, make it 3 supply and let 2 spawn at the same time like zerglings?
the main issue i see this this is zerg could a nasty 1 base roach push which would be almost impossible to stop, because they would not be larva starved.
On August 05 2010 02:15 heynes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:34 SaetZero wrote:
I'm still on the boat of 'keep 2 supply roaches, but revert them to 2 armor again.'
This.
^I feel this idea would be the best way to start. think about the order of the orginal beta roach nerfs Regen-armor-armor-supply.
looking back that is the one of the worst orders in introspec. If they would have been regen ->supply->armor->armor would the armor nerfs have even needed to come?
Note:mid plat terran player take with a grain of salt.
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On August 05 2010 03:05 koswinner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:45 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:24 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 02:07 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 02:02 koswinner wrote:On August 05 2010 01:52 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 01:48 koswinner wrote:
I laughted at copper league ideas that '200/200 roaches' are everything u need to win, or 'zerg mass hydra/roaches all the time', or 'ultralist has always been strong'.
Rofl, do u really play zerg at high level or have any serious idea about the race/unit? I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread that you just tried to make fun of is light years better than you. rofl, back in beta days, I had 1800+ rating, the number of people that are ranked higher than me is surely more than the number of people in this thread, but statistically the chance that every1 in this thread is better than me is 0. learn some math before going out trolling kid. And if you got a chance, just go back times when roaches are 1 supply and u try to mass them, I'll be laughing at ur win%. Almost all mainstream strategies from T/P at that time rapes you hard for sure. Ofc I'm not too familiar with the situation in copper league. And meanwhile, enjoy your fansy imaginations about how much better you are than me. :D You're bragging about a 1800+ rating? Really? Really? Every single person you just quoted was 2000+ in phase one, and now is at the top of the ladder phase two. And I'll gladly play you. Hell, I'll even offrace against you. Because let me tell you something: 1800+ doesn't mean shit. Rofl, when I quit 1v1 the highest ranking in EU server i.e. TLO was only 210X. But I'm sure that even without playing 1v1 for like 2 months I'll be enough to pwn you. Why don't we play? MSG me ur details.:D I'm glad to see how a noob who thinks zerg only need to mass roaches to win can even play. Unfortunately I'm not a brainless person (like some1 in this post) who thinks 'if I could / my friend could beat u, I am right with my argument.' Let me just shed some light to you, ALL replay from top players back then shows that no one actually massing only roaches (except zvz). Massing roaches even with a successful FE are easily beaten by 1. MMM ball, which every1 plays at that time, where every1 plays at that time. 2. pure maurauder not to mention with a couple of tanks. 3, fast banshees, etc. from T. From P, gateway mix with immortals/colossus, all u need is a few good FF or some cheese strat like fast voidrays. The chance for you to survive the midgame pressure from these pushes are extremely low if u had only roaches. Actually play me or not, ur trolling nature is just so obvious to anyone who have a actual knowledge. :D PM'd. By the way, if you didn't realize by now, here's why your posts suck: 1. You call the statements of high level diamond players "copper league ideas" while questioning whether they really are good players. 2. You say everyone who thinks 1 supply roach is unfair doesn't understand the race when it's actually you who doesn't understand the race and it's production capabilities. 3. I correct you and you get all defensive, flaunting your big shot 1800+ rating. 4. You call me a troll because you refuse to believe the people you just made fun of are better than you. 5. You call me a bad player because I point out that you're wrong. 6. You're still trying to act like a big shot even though you're terrible. 7. But you still try to save face, saying "oh, even if I'm worse than you my argument still stands. Roach at 1 supply is totally fair because the Terran and Protoss have units that can counter roaches." 8. That argument is terrible because it doesn't take into consideration ANYTHING besides a Zerg getting pure roaches and the other race's reaction to that. You don't consider how the races work and interact with each other. You just see "omg marauders beat roaches on paper, ez balance." 9. You overuse the word troll, and it's annoying as hell. I don't know what internet shithole you crawled out from, but please don't bring their crap here. 1. I quoted players saying 'mass roach is all u need' or 'ultralist has always been strong'. Copper is of course an exagregation, although the logic could clearly be seen. 2. You are extrapolating too much, could you tell me your logic in why I laughed at certain ridiculous arguement, decribing them as have no serious understanding of the race = I say any1 who think 1 supply is unfair does not have a good understanding? Do I even say that I think 1 supply is perfectly fair? 3. You are correcting my joke - i.e. describing ridiculous ideas as copper league, plus saying every1 I laughed at is 1 light year better than me - it doesn't show that you don't understand usage of exagregation/joke. 4. I laughed at certain ideas, u laughed at me, which means you agree with those ideas, and concluding they are way better than me without any knowledge about me, thus I say u are trolling. 5. I call any1 who agree with those ideas I laughed at as 'bad players', obviously u did. 6. If u think 'terrible' is the correct description for a top 100 ranked player at that time, then go ahead. PS: I couldn't even imagine what will the decription be using a same standard on majority of the players, indeed some1 is acting big.  7. Seems you just didn't get my arguement or intentionally distorting. My initial arguement is that certain arguement about how mighty roaches were and how good Ultralists are since the beginning of the beta, the next one is just 'mass roaches means you won't survive mid game, not to mention reaching 200/200'. I am interested in the logic in deriving what u described as '"oh, even if I'm worse than you my argument still stands. Roach at 1 supply is totally fair because the Terran and Protoss have units that can counter roaches." Do I even say that 1 supply roaches are perfectly fine in the 1st place? 8. your arguement is terrible because if you take into consideration about possible reaction/dynamics of the game you'll find in most of the cases you won't end up with 200/200 roaches, and this is why any top level replay from top players didn't have this scenario occuring. If this could rarely occur, then why could such a scenario be a valid arguement supporting the roach nerf? How different it is from saying 200/200 BCs are too much for P to handle? 9. Rofl, imagine as you like. :D
I really don't understand what you're saying, but thanks for taking it to PMs. Also, if you want to grudgematch, I'll make a blog for it, but let's not shit up this thread with it, okay?
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Also as stated, if you allow an Infestor to control your Thor's for longer than 5s you are failing, NP is basically a laser straight to the most important target, once you see that red tentacle destroy it. Against any good players I find using Infestor's NP to be either very difficult or impossible.
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I really liked the suggestion of making Roach Speed before lair and 50/50. Seems one of the issues with roaches is that they are only defensive before lair then at lair you have better options.
It seems kinda strange Zerg have all their cheap upgrades make higher when other races have them lowered(What point is there for a zerg post without zerg whine  )
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On August 05 2010 03:12 Numy wrote:I really liked the suggestion of making Roach Speed before lair and 50/50. Seems one of the issues with roaches is that they are only defensive before lair then at lair you have better options. It seems kinda strange Zerg have all their cheap upgrades make higher when other races have them lowered(What point is there for a zerg post with zerg whine )
I like this idea as well, though I think maybe Protoss might have a hard time early game against this?
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Cool idea:
Lair Tech upgrade for zerglings that adds +10 HP and eliminates splash damage dealt to them !
- This is perfect way to deal with tank siege and collossi in late game but +10 hp could be overkill. Splash damage reduction/removal buff should be enough.
Something missing in zerg race when you compare it to terran and protoss. Needs more units which can create more tactics and opportunities i think. Im afraid we may not see it until next expension...
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That is a possibility although I think if you maybe make it more expensive it should hamper the zerg enough if he tries to mass them off 1 base that the protoss can get enough stalkers/zealots to fend it off with micro. Basically get speed for zerglings then lair or get speed for roaches then lair type situation.
I just think that allowing zerg more early game options would help balance most of the issues around zerg.
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Yeah, Blizzard just hates zerg. The thought process for terran and protoss is way different from zerg. If those two races has a unit that isn't used very much, they BUFF the unit. For zerg, if a unit isn't being used much, they nerf other units to force people to use it. Like when every hated ultras, they nerfed the ultralisk. And for NP, remember in the patch explanation that too many ultralisks were being mind-controlled? When the hell do u c an ultralisk in zvz? Yeah, as a zerg, I really hate zvz, and zvt. zvp is pretty fair imo. But after the roach nerf, I decided to never use roaches again, but I was forced to after everyone went mech. And even then, mech was hard to defend. Even mutas are bad against mech, i mean one thor takes down 5 mutas, Thats 500/500 to 300/200. My only way to win now is doing 16hatch, which will get raped if there's some early rush, but that's the life of a zerg.
I mean seriously, toss and terran has so many options in the beginning, zerg just has to settle with holding it off and hoping we can make a comeback. Terran can do marine-tank, thor drops, hellion harass, reapers, etc. Toss can do many builds and unit composition like 2gate, proxy 2gate, 4gate push, Forge FE. What the hell can zerg do? Baneling bust? GG Blizzard, u win, at least until the Korean pros start playing and we all will bitch about zerg and then u will have to change it, unless u want toss vs terran in every matchup.
U know what, since u hate zerg so much Blizzard, why don't u just get rid of zerg and make that fourth race with the ursadons and stuff playable instead.
And OP, your ideas are great, but how about this idea. Zerg get to have a maximum of 250 units, not 200, and if thats too imba, make it an upgrade
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On August 05 2010 03:11 Whole wrote:
I actually think a 1.5 supply Roach with 2 per Larva would be a better idea. You could get more Roaches (because of 2 per larva) out in the early game to defend against the 500 possible things Terran can throw at you. And it would probably make a decent number of Roaches viable late game.
I've hear this proposed before, but when you really think about it it would be imba as hell. One of zerg's worst limiting resources is the larvae count, hence why using spawn larvae is so important. Think about that first spawn larva from your queen. If you saved up resources and supply and devoted those larvae fully to roaches, you could get 8 roaches at about 3-4 mins in the game. That's worse than 1 supply roaches, imo.
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Give roaches +10 HP and BAM! They can now soak up 4 tank shots, ain't that sweet?
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I would like to see zerg get a new unit that could be thrown into the roach, ling, hydra mix. I'm thinking lurker but that's only because im not creative enough to think off an original idea. Come out with some new unit that the terran needs to counter so we can switch tech. I just want another option.
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ZvZ makes me puke. Hate my race because of that .....
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How about making burrow hatch tech?
Could give Z some interesting things to do with roach regen micro and baneling traps early game that could be a bit interesting and give Z more options. It wouldn't be that OP since it would delay lair tech which is something very risky both vs T (banshees) and vs P (hydras to deal with gate). Would force T to scan early game that could make the MU at the start just a little bit different. And P could be forced to get a robo for observer earlier then they'd want.
At first glance I do not think it would change to much so be considered OP.
Would be interesting to see a change there.
And infestor seriously need some love back regarding NP.
I'm also interested in giving roach their 2 armor back. Would make them more of a niche unit and actually diversify them a bit from all other tier 1 units. It could also change ZvZ a bit since mass ling owns roaches now. If roaches had 2 armor it could actually be viable to get roaches vs baneling ling.
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I'm amazed at how easily so many people dismiss people like Lz and Drewbie without logic or reason...
The one thing that should be done to roaches to make them more versatile and lucrative is this:
Make roaches start with burrowed movement when burrow is researched.
In addition:
Buff roach movement underground back to a reasonable speed.
Roaches are not the all powerful super swarm unit anymore - they are rather bland and quite frankly limited. Giving some reasonable incentive to use burrowed roaches and consequentially making them something to take into consideration (like lurkers were in BW) would give zerg back some flexibility and creativity they need.
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On August 05 2010 03:17 TTL wrote:
Cool idea:
Lair Tech upgrade for zerglings that adds +10 HP and eliminates splash damage dealt to them !
- This is perfect way to deal with tank siege and collossi in late game but +10 hp could be overkill. Splash damage reduction/removal buff should be enough.
Something missing in zerg race when you compare it to terran and protoss. Needs more units which can create more tactics and opportunities i think. Im afraid we may not see it until next expension...
Better idea: program zerg unit pathing to go in a straight line again instead of clumping.
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On August 05 2010 01:36 Saracen wrote:
My thoughts:
Roach: In retrospect, a 1 supply roach is pretty ridiculous. It forces the Terran/Protoss to go mass marauders/immortals because they really have no other way to deal with the threat of a mass 200/200 roach army lategame, which is insanely easy for the Zerg to switch into. That said, yes the roach being at 2 supply hurts a lot. I think the roach would be great if it was still 1 supply but had some stats lowered to match. Like maybe reduce its damage output and HP by a little.
Ultralisk: The only reason ultralisks seem to be so good right now is that they do splash damage and have insane DPS versus armored. They still melt super fast when focus fired. It's funny, whenever you go ultra/ling, the roles are reversed from BW: the lings do the tanking while the ultras deal the damage (ling damage is absolutely terrible in this game). If you remove ultralisk splash, then you're effectively making ultralisks worthless again.
Infestor: Yeah, the infestor used to kick ass. I remember when playing on LT ZvT would be just fine because you could get an infestor to NP the Thor to stop drops. Then they made you upgrade NP and increased the energy cost, which pretty much killed your timing window. But even then, mass NP with roach could be used lategame to stop giant mech armies to reasonable success. But they just kept on nerfing so that now, it's pretty much useless. It's one of my biggest gripes with Blizzard's design: they want the game to evolve into big flashy tier 3 units lategame (which is why they keep buffing the battlecruiser and the ultralisk), but they realize NP makes this pretty much useless. So they keep nerfing NP. I wish they could see that in the late game it's not the big flashy units but the combination of all the tools you have available that makes the game. If you want to see mass carriers, go play Fastest.
Pretty much this. Roaches if reduced to 1 supply need to get an little armor, health, or damage nerf while keeping the price the same.
I think ultralisks are fine, maybe make them negate all splash damage done to them if their big size doesn't do that already. Maybe I just don't play zerg so I don't know :/
Infestors need a longer dura for NP like 20 seconds or 30 seconds but not permanently like before. Maybe reduce the energy cost to 25 or 50 and make it use 3 energy every sec it's NPing a unit.
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On August 05 2010 03:26 Floophead_III wrote:
I'm amazed at how easily so many people dismiss people like Lz and Drewbie without logic or reason...
The one thing that should be done to roaches to make them more versatile and lucrative is this:
Make roaches start with burrowed movement when burrow is researched.
In addition:
Buff roach movement underground back to a reasonable speed.
Those are actually really good suggestions. Blizzard always said that lurkers aren't in because roaches+banelings overlap with them. However burrow is almost never used because it requires such a big investment and roach speed has been nerfed so hard. With burrow being viable option for roaches we could also see players getting burrow for roaches+banelings. Really sweet idea.
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On August 05 2010 03:26 Floophead_III wrote:
I'm amazed at how easily so many people dismiss people like Lz and Drewbie without logic or reason...
The one thing that should be done to roaches to make them more versatile and lucrative is this:
Make roaches start with burrowed movement when burrow is researched.
In addition:
Buff roach movement underground back to a reasonable speed.
Roaches are not the all powerful super swarm unit anymore - they are rather bland and quite frankly limited. Giving some reasonable incentive to use burrowed roaches and consequentially making them something to take into consideration (like lurkers were in BW) would give zerg back some flexibility and creativity they need.
This is a good idea. I don't think "lucrative" is the right word, though. I think Blizzard had intended for roach burrow movement to be used a lot, but it's just not worth the investment at the moment when you factor in gas cost and tech time.
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On August 05 2010 03:26 Floophead_III wrote:
I'm amazed at how easily so many people dismiss people like Lz and Drewbie without logic or reason...
The one thing that should be done to roaches to make them more versatile and lucrative is this:
Make roaches start with burrowed movement when burrow is researched.
In addition:
Buff roach movement underground back to a reasonable speed.
Roaches are not the all powerful super swarm unit anymore - they are rather bland and quite frankly limited. Giving some reasonable incentive to use burrowed roaches and consequentially making them something to take into consideration (like lurkers were in BW) would give zerg back some flexibility and creativity they need.
I really like these suggestions. As it is now detection will always be up before you tech everything that you need. And its just so expensive as well.
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yeah a unit that can move underground and heal fast is bad. dont use them. but realistically they are very good early game to defend hellion rushes or be aggressive vs zealot rushes. just most top tier players prefer getting a faster expo and barely hold off with lings/queens.
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EPT
