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I've been an active member of TL for about 7 months and an active member of ESEA for about 2 years and I'll give my 2 cents on what the successes and failures of ESEA league is.
ESEA has an EXTREMELY well managed CS:S, CS:1.6 and TF2 leagues. Anybody that has ever partook in the league can agree with me when I say that it is the most well organized, well-run and most trusted league in all of NA (even though there aren't that many anymore). ESEA has not "failed" at everything it has done, because it's management and resources for 1.6, Source and TF2 is well beyond what is expected of an average league (match servers, practice scrim servers, mumble + support for teams, etc).
However, when it comes to the SC2 league, the biggest fallacy is that 1: there are not enough admins to manage the individual needs of every single team (the biggest problem last season - I'll get back to that later), and that 2: the playing times of teams vs teams is not prioritized enough vs the length of the season, especially considering the hefty sum of $5000 being given out towards the teams (will explain what this means later)
What ESEA needs to do is 1: hire MORE knowledgable admins for the SC2 leagues, prefferably around 3-5 more with people in different timezones, so that there will be active admins on to meet the needs of the team members and managers whenever needed. Although da_bears tries his best to do what he can, I don't believe that he has the needed support to maintain a SC2 league successfully, as a league's success is highly dependent on the amount of support they get from league administrators regarding issues that they might have with the leagues.
ESEA has the infrastructure to host multiple highly successful RTS games including LANs, and there will no doubt be the necessary infrastructure for a successful SC2 league. However, I do disagree with the way that the EG problem was handled. A possible fix would be to separate the SC2 league schedules with the RTS game schedules, because to my knowledge the RTS game season is scheduled for maximum server efficiency, which is a non-issue for SC2. This will allow for larger flexibility for teams to negotiate times to play, which in the world of regular SC2 lans messing up people's schedules, would be an important aspect of running a successful league.
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On October 12 2011 07:53 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:36 VPGeneralHans wrote:On October 12 2011 07:28 Torte de Lini wrote:
If you need help running the league, let me know, I'm willing to volunteer to help make it run more smoothly. I believe ESEA is all paid staff positions so they don't take volunteers.  I don't mind being an exception :B
In my experience with ESEA they only hire long-time contributing members of the ESEA community to be admins for anything and probably won't hire anyone from TL unless you fit that criteria.
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On October 12 2011 07:00 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:54 dbizzle wrote:On October 12 2011 06:06 iNcontroL wrote:
I don't want your respect I want a competent league that doesn't give w/o's in the finals. I want an admin who can admit he was wrong and not continue to go "ESEA is the best!" and then later admit "well this is my first time running a league" No shit? I couldn't tell.. well here is some huge advice GET THE FINALS PLAYED.
Want me to act professional in regards to your league? Then run a professional league. You yourself talked about giving respect and getting it. Well guess what? That sword cuts both ways. I have 0 respect for ESEA thus far. Want my respect? Stop being a shit league that makes up rules around the finals and would rather w/o a team than play the finals.
Ironically the most PR ESEA will get in 2 seasons will be me talking about this on SOTG. You exaggerate a lot of my words when I'm trying to explain the situations of what and why things happened. I don't want to publicly put down EG and tell everyone that we've had many problems with your team through out both seasons of reporting scores and going weeks and weeks with out turning in any replays, thus delaying the season itself. You want SC2 to be the next big game and to be like korea in terms of money and how much they love it over there. Yet you can't even throw in positive advice with out sounding like an immature brat. If you want a potential league to succeed (who is willing to throw down thousands of dollars) it takes the community to fuel it. You want to talk bad about esea and how shitty it is on your talk show, go ahead, all you are doing is putting a negative impact in the sc2 community. You remind me of the people who bashed Championship Gaming Series when they were throwing MILLIONS of dollars for a gaming. Yea the format and things weren't ran right, but it takes time, trial and error sometimes to make something right. If the whole cs and css community showed more support the league could very well be here still today. I don't care who you are or what team you play for, if you don't show up to a finals when you are suppose to play, you forfeit, go ahead and try it at any tournament. Even other team managers hate dealing with you because your head is so far up your own ass that you think the world is willing to bend over backwards for EG. I barely even know you and I already don't like you. You are a big icon in the starcraft 2 community and you represent yourself and EG terribly with your attitude. ESEA wasn't the best ran league, but at least I have respect for other people and try my best to fix the problems. I look forward to reading this out loud on SOTG. You sound like a fantastic ESEA admin! Complaining that I call you names but then turning around and doing exactly that. You want to try and say I am hurting esports because I call you out for being a shit admin? LOL try not being a shit admin dude. It's obvious at this point you've lost it. Laurent and creig are good people. You are a horrible admin who is getting pissy because you can't admit when you are wrong and would rather start calling me names. Also comparing my complaints about ESEA to people complaining about CGS is laughable. CGS fucked up.. not people complaining about them. Fuck you for even suggesting otherwise. And here you go again, fucking up another league and then blaming the people who are upset about it
You can't blame him for "ruining" the league. The time constraints (based on the RTS-game seasons) and his lack of support are the biggest issues with the league. He does not have all of the IPL management staff to help him run the league, or all of the GSL staff, or all of the NASL staff, and such.
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From what i have read about the topics discussed, I believe that InControl is right,
ESEA was a poorly ran tournament, and yes he has admitted that it was or sugarcoatedly said so,
but the fact that your not answering the question, but rather focusing on how you are terrible as an admin is beyond the point. I as well, was part of Season 2 and in the management field, Not once did we have a week without any trouble with this league, be it reporting results, scheduling or rules, Weeks after weeks we get contacted by a team who is also as clueless as us into when it will be played. Those parts are understandable, and we can brush it off as poor management and bad season of ESEA, but being in "professional" leagues for years with CS and CSS should have given you somewhat of an experience dealing with the league, Having a Walk Over Final is by no means improving yourself from the last season, and is no way a "professional" league, who knows how to run things would go about it, I feel for InControl with him saying they were waiting and waiting for their next round because i find my team doing the same thing in some weeks, and how you are unforgiving for somebody who has been waiting for your league to get their things in order for such a long time to not show the decency to respect them into playing a finals. I have been in the management side of E-sports for a very very long time, and I know for sure that 1 day would not make the world stop and end. The fact that your just running around in circles and giving up excuses instead of addressing the issue, is in my opinion very unprofessional.
Whats done is done, yes. EG cannot replay the finals, yes. But turning a blind eye to criticism about a poorly ran league is not what the community needs. Its time to suck it up, own up to your mistakes and admit to decisions you have made and live with it, and move on. Clearly, you as an admin made that decision of a walk over final, even though you have said that is the last thing you wanted. Scapegoating saying that this is your first league only makes a shame of you and ESEA,
If you want to be successful and respected as a league, Grow some balls and own up to your mistakes instead of throwing things to cover it up and talking about how you are new at this and past successes of the league.
I am actually excited to see the next season, seeing how you respond to such poorly ran 2 seasons and how ESEA will fix all their mistakes and issues and how it will be from there.
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On October 12 2011 07:17 Kira__ wrote:I don't care who's right or wrong here; it's just sad to see a league admin and a representative for EG arguing in this way on public forums ESPORTS hurting
Stop throwing out that fucking term, in the grand scheme of things this is NOT hurting esports.
On October 12 2011 08:28 Legend` wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:53 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 12 2011 07:36 VPGeneralHans wrote:On October 12 2011 07:28 Torte de Lini wrote:
If you need help running the league, let me know, I'm willing to volunteer to help make it run more smoothly. I believe ESEA is all paid staff positions so they don't take volunteers. I don't mind being an exception :B In my experience with ESEA they only hire long-time contributing members of the ESEA community to be admins for anything and probably won't hire anyone from TL unless you fit that criteria.
His point is just that its pretty evident they need some help and it isn't hard nor expensive to find, especially in the starcraft community.
If help is what solves the previous problems then for gods sake these problems shouldn't be happening at all.
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I'm going to give you some good general advice, and I'm not someone who doesn't have experience in this kind of stuff, I've run team leagues since WC3 and since the start of SC2. I ran SCL for 2 season's and we just started a new season under SCL:NA, so take this as someone who's had experience doing this.
First off, you should be a lot more lenient with teams, especially teams that are sponsored and have players that are well known in the community. Obviously, within a allowable limit but not even rescheduling the finals for a different week that doesn't conflict with major North American tournaments (IPL,MLG). You have no excuse but lack of experience by giving a walk over to a team in the playoffs. Teams that are sponsored have bigger obligations (and contractual) to go to LAN events and compete for money, or exposure to sponsors.
Teams payed $9 per player, (many teams I know out of their own pockets) because organized clan wars like this are hard to come by, and they slaved through so many weeks (I forgot the actual number) to be FFed in the playoffs. You can't blame Incontrol's response because he is correct, and his criticism is was needed. Why are teams going to spend so much money to a organization that has continually lied and been run poorly. You also said teams should have more players to avoid this, well teams like EG have contracts, and they can't sign more people (or shouldn't have to) to cater to your request.
Secondly, you claimed season 2 that the exposure for the teams playing in season 2 would get more coverage, matches casted, and djWheat would cast matches. I can't think of a single match getting casted or anyone the good matches of the week getting highlighted, other then the actual teams posting here on TL about the coming match. Your saying your inexperienced, yet I've seen no job posting, or recruiting for help. If your understaffed you should be looking to add more people.
You have a 5000 prize pool ( I forget what last seasons was) yet your advertising last season was terrible. Why would ESEA support a huge prize yet plan no coverage for the league? It seems like a poor business decision to me. You don't even have casters for matches, yet the league schedule is preset with showing like the first 6 or 8 matches weeks ahead time.
Lastly, your site is not formatted for a SC2 league. Why not reduce the prize pool by $1000 and get a website to fit SC2. You need to rework the battle reports that show a correct format for the league. The rosters need to be more user friendly, and the report scores needs to be redone completely because it is set up awfully. If you'd like some examples of some I have tons.
All in all you guys need to get this stuff straightened out. You need to treat teams better, and be more lenient. You also need to cater to teams that are sponsored and that have many followers/high exposure. These teams will make or break you, because people don't want to watch mid masters players, they want to watch EG vs TL because the pro scene is where the money is.
Also a public shouting match on TL or anywhere is a big no-no, stick to PMs, let them get angry and look bad (not saying Incontrol was wrong/looking bad, just you guys started getting into personal attacks). It's bad exposure for you and only creates more negativity.
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I've been up to date looking over each season and always watching how each team was doing each week. Obviously the w/o in the finals is bad, but how it all began was the delay in the first place. Toward the end of the actual season I was seeing teams not complete their matches to almost a full week after the season was over. Also the brackets for the finals took forever, I think week one taking maybe two weeks and another two on the second. Just fix the early problems and bad things won't happen.
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I had no idea what ESEA was until this. I guess I didn't miss anything.
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WTF is ESEA? Sometimes you never know if your arguing with 16 year olds on the internet take chill pills.
User was banned for this post.
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It sucks to see so much crap in a thread, both from ESEA and from the teams.
I kinda have to agree with what has been said so far though. It's near impossible to follow the league, it's hard to know how your favorite teams are doing or when they are playing, because the schedule is out of date, scores may or may not get posted, the site itself is hard to navigate.
I'm not surprised by any of what was said iNcontroL, because in my experience as a viewer who enjoys team leagues, it's par for the course.
I've only very rarely seen threads about ESEA games on TL. To me based on what I see regarding coverage, rules, etc - the backyard league is ESEA and the main team leagues are EGMCS and GCPL.
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On October 12 2011 10:17 matus2442 wrote:
I had no idea what ESEA was until this. I guess I didn't miss anything.
Same, sounds a pretty joke league lol.
W/o finals? really?
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On October 12 2011 10:33 Moralez wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 10:17 matus2442 wrote:
I had no idea what ESEA was until this. I guess I didn't miss anything. Same, sounds a pretty joke league lol. W/o finals? really?
ESEA pays out over $80,000 in prize money each season (usually 2 seasons per year) in their other games (CS 1.6 , CS:S, and TF2). They're definitely not a joke league. They obviously are still learning when it comes to SC2 though. I guarantee you they will only get much much better though. Including LAN playoffs for the SC2 teams with very good payouts in the future.
I've been playing CS 1.6 on ESEA for the past 6 years. Things have only gotten much better over the years... Just give them time guys. I guarantee you guys won't be disappointed in the future.
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ESEA seems poorly ran. I had no idea this league went on until one of our editors for our e-sports website showed us the thread.
iNcontroL is 100% right on all his points. I was at IPL3, literally 1 day of no internet and you couldn't reschedule it for say Monday? You delayed EG's games for 2 weeks allowing others to catch up. But this one day you couldn't delay it? That just shows you couldn't keep a consistent schedule down until you realized "oh crap we need to speed things along." and enforced a arbitrary deadline for the finals. And I find it funny that you tell EG to have backup players. Yeah you want them to take your league serious, but you weren't taking your league serious until the last second. It was your fault your league failed, not EG. Also no streaming of the matches? That's like...a necessity in e-Sports.
I do content for a e-sports website, and I honestly had no clue you even had a league until now. Good job marketing yourselves to the community.
These sort of blunders by leagues help me compile a list of what sort of things are needed to be figured out well before I (hopefully) can start doing my own league/online tournaments.
Thanks ESEA, you're failure at running your "business" will help me run my business in the future.
=D
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On October 12 2011 11:04 MrNomad wrote:
ESEA seems poorly ran. I had no idea this league went on until one of our editors for our e-sports website showed us the thread.
iNcontroL is 100% right on all his points. I was at IPL3, literally 1 day of no internet and you couldn't reschedule it for say Monday? You delayed EG's games for 2 weeks allowing others to catch up. But this one day you couldn't delay it? That just shows you couldn't keep a consistent schedule down until you realized "oh crap we need to speed things along." and enforced a arbitrary deadline for the finals. And I find it funny that you tell EG to have backup players. Yeah you want them to take your league serious, but you weren't taking your league serious until the last second. It was your fault your league failed, not EG. Also no streaming of the matches? That's like...a necessity in e-Sports.
I do content for a e-sports website, and I honestly had no clue you even had a league until now. Good job marketing yourselves to the community.
These sort of blunders by leagues help me compile a list of what sort of things are needed to be figured out well before I (hopefully) can start doing my own league/online tournaments.
Thanks ESEA, you're failure at running your "business" will help me run my business in the future.
=D
.... They have over 14,000 premium subscribers. That's $6.95/month from each one. I wouldn't call that a "failure".
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Not sure if dbizzle is the world's greatest troll... or retarded.
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On October 12 2011 11:26 ATLpro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 11:04 MrNomad wrote:
ESEA seems poorly ran. I had no idea this league went on until one of our editors for our e-sports website showed us the thread.
iNcontroL is 100% right on all his points. I was at IPL3, literally 1 day of no internet and you couldn't reschedule it for say Monday? You delayed EG's games for 2 weeks allowing others to catch up. But this one day you couldn't delay it? That just shows you couldn't keep a consistent schedule down until you realized "oh crap we need to speed things along." and enforced a arbitrary deadline for the finals. And I find it funny that you tell EG to have backup players. Yeah you want them to take your league serious, but you weren't taking your league serious until the last second. It was your fault your league failed, not EG. Also no streaming of the matches? That's like...a necessity in e-Sports.
I do content for a e-sports website, and I honestly had no clue you even had a league until now. Good job marketing yourselves to the community.
These sort of blunders by leagues help me compile a list of what sort of things are needed to be figured out well before I (hopefully) can start doing my own league/online tournaments.
Thanks ESEA, you're failure at running your "business" will help me run my business in the future.
=D .... They have over 14,000 premium subscribers. That's $6.95/month from each one. I wouldn't call that a "failure".
Having 14,000 premium subscribers and yet give this kind of crappy treatment for their own competition? Sounds like a major failure to me.
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why cant they still play? ...
walk over finals is extremely stupid, and should never be done unless extreme circumstances, like if the team dies, or wutever
i just dont think it looks good for the league, even if all the real facts aren't out there, the bottom line is and what everyone is going to read is that a premier team lost a finals cuz of a walkover, kinda stinks to me
TORBULL, LET THEM PLAY
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ESEA has kept the FPS scene alive in America for quite some time.I've been apart of esea pretty much since day 1 and its kept counter-strike going through its more dire times. I personally hope every player gives the league a chance because they do put a lot of time / energy into running the league.
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EPT
