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Fuck.... I'm late to the party. Well I just read through this entire thread and hope to give some of my own insight. For those that don't know I am the team owner/manager for tQ and we were one of the 20 teams which participated in Season 2.
So moving past the fact that almost all of what Incontrol has said is accurate, and that if the decision had been in Check6's hands to get the finals match played, it would have been played... I guess I will try my best to touch on some much needed and potential improvements for future seasons of the league.
1. $5,000 is a lot of money. Behind EG:MC, it is the largest prize pool summation in all of NA SC2 Team Leagues. As previously stated, if you're going to put this much funding into the prize pool, you should consider spending a tad more in order to market the league appropriately. Moreover, you might want to take this large prize pool and consider inviting teams, or making the season a bit more exclusive.
2. Exclusivity (Making real divisions) - By opening the league up to anyone and everyone makes it very difficult for teams like EG (true professional teams), teams like tQ (pro-amatuer teams), and random ass no name teams that started a week ago and won't last but another to get matches played properly. Moreover it presents a lot of problems with seeding into the playoffs. If you're only going to take the top 8 teams into playoffs and seed them based on their performance, you must make the seeding equal between those said teams. At the end of the season, each team played a total of 16 matches, however not every team played each other. Some teams played each other twice, some teams got extra FFWs (from teams that were forfeiting matches from week 1 onward), and some teams got little to no FFWs. This is a problem.
By making the league exclusive - consider sending out invites (don't bother doing this until you have reliable casting/coverage of the season, otherwise the big guns aren't going to care much). In sending out invites, you may consider establishing two divisions. Invite, professional, code S (whatever you want to call it), and the open division (teams that want to play for fun/experience). Keep the prize pool what it is for the invite division, keep the playing field level and even - all professional teams with similar schedules/lifestyles/understandings/etc. Make the open division free with a small or no prize pool at all. This will help avoid getting teams on board with no management, no real players, FFW's, and hopefully walkover finals. Not to mention an ass ton of delays and unplayed matches.
3. Season/Match Format - The current match format is quite flawed for SC2. Because there are 3 race options (4 counting random) available in SC2, and lineups/races must be posted PRIOR to a match there can often be a lot of mirror match ups and generally unwanted MU's from match to match. If you were to make an invite division, you could cap it at say 8 teams. In 8 weeks, with two matches per week you could have 16 matches played total, each team plays each other twice. The first time they play, Team A is at home - the would have to set their roster/lineup first which is then SHOWN to the opposing team (yes, giving them an advantage). The second time they play, Team B is at home, giving the advantage to Team A. This will allow the match format to remain the same (4 1v1 BO3 - first to 3 wins), but will make lineups a lot less random. Obviously it adds a bit more strategy to your lineups, and tests each teams roster twice as much each season before playoffs begin.
4. Scheduling system - Granted the idea behind this system (and even it's current implementation) is quite a ways ahead of most other 'backyard' NA leagues, it is still a huge pain in the ass to deal with. In my opinion the times allowed for scheduling matches are far too constricting. Furthermore the fact that you have to have a roster submitted before you can attempt to schedule a day/time to play is absurd. For almost every team (even the EG's, perhaps even especially the EG's) it is impossible to know what players are going to available for a match if you don't know the day/time of the match. I'm getting a bit tired, so hopefully that makes sense. So please, get rid of the required roster set in order to schedule a match day/time. Also consider revising the times to choose from. Almost every single one of our matches in season 2 I scheduled outside of ESEA through PMs, email, or battle.net.
5. MAP POOL - The season 2 pool was pretty awful. It doesn't hurt to get player/team insight at the start, midpoint, end (before playoffs) of the ongoing season to make sure that awesome new maps are being included, and awful old maps are being discarded.
In closing I will say that although I think Da_Bears probably couldn't have handled this thread much worse, for being the only person running the SC2 division for the entire season, he was fairly on top of any questions or help that I needed on my end. However in the grand scheme of things.... I should expect as much when there were never any admins present for matches or any real live support.
There are a plenty more small things that could be added to this list, but those are some of the major problems (in addition to those previously mentioned by others) i foresee continuing to holding this league back.
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Let me just say that, being a part of ESEA for its two seasons, and playing in many of the "backyard leagues". ESEA, even though costing money, was a million times better than the "backyard leagues" which often have favouritism, lopsided seeding because of favouritism, and a lack of stable administrative help, often left clamouring over each other. Sure ESEA admins didnt show up to matches, but a support ticket, or PM to db always solved any issue we may have had.
ESEA could really use some help on the administrative side of things, that is one thing that is clear, but the amount of competition, and the opportunity they give is unparalled in other team leagues in North America.
My opinion on the games is that they should be played, however thats because I still view this as a hobby, where we play video games for fun, x6, EG and ESEA all see this as a source of income, so i can see where they draw the line on expectations.
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On October 13 2011 06:54 dbizzle wrote:
If anyone is going to MLG orlando, I will be working for astro headset company. Please stop by the booth, ask for Erik and say hi and you can talk to me about sc2, the league or whatever.
Can't wait to visit the astro headset booth. I'm going to be like:
"so i herd u r killing e-sports liek mudkips"
User was warned for this post
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Lmfao at incontrol bashing ESEA brainlessly just because EG got unlucky and was unable to make the finals date. ESEA is a huge league and is literally the only thing keeping NA CS alive, so to call it a second rate league only further proves your ignorance and lack of knowledge. iNcontrol i think you have some kind of ego running by the way you're typing but I think you need to sit back and realize you still got 2nd place and you should just be happy they didn't disqualify your earnings completely, why not just give positive feedback to help improve the league rather than just bashing it? Oh yeah because you got a w.o. finals.. well how about you take the proper steps to make sure that doesn't happen? You look like a complete loser by your posts bashing ESEA when the league has a 1000 fold bigger effect on e-sports than you do, so how about YOU get off YOUR high horse and stfu, accept the fact that you got unlucky and give positive feedback rather than crying like a 400 pound baby back bitch.
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On October 14 2011 04:59 veK1g wrote:
Lmfao at incontrol bashing ESEA brainlessly just because EG got unlucky and was unable to make the finals date. ESEA is a huge league and is literally the only thing keeping NA CS alive, so to call it a second rate league only further proves your ignorance and lack of knowledge. iNcontrol i think you have some kind of ego running by the way you're typing but I think you need to sit back and realize you still got 2nd place and you should just be happy they didn't disqualify your earnings completely, why not just give positive feedback to help improve the league rather than just bashing it? Oh yeah because you got a w.o. finals.. well how about you take the proper steps to make sure that doesn't happen? You look like a complete loser by your posts bashing ESEA when the league has a 1000 fold bigger effect on e-sports than you do, so how about YOU get off YOUR high horse and stfu, accept the fact that you got unlucky and give positive feedback rather than crying like a 400 pound baby back bitch.
"Hi my names veK1g and I didn't read the thread at all, herp derp"
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On October 14 2011 04:59 veK1g wrote:
Oh yeah because you got a w.o. finals.. well how about you take the proper steps to make sure that doesn't happen?
taking the proper steps to make sure it doesn't happen? you mean, like, skipping IPL?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Loving the random new accounts coming in to bash lol
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On October 14 2011 07:00 iNcontroL wrote:
Loving the random new accounts coming in to bash lol
they're all from the 1.6 community
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On October 13 2011 13:55 Holcan wrote:
Let me just say that, being a part of ESEA for its two seasons, and playing in many of the "backyard leagues". ESEA, even though costing money, was a million times better than the "backyard leagues" which often have favouritism, lopsided seeding because of favouritism, and a lack of stable administrative help, often left clamouring over each other. Sure ESEA admins didnt show up to matches, but a support ticket, or PM to db always solved any issue we may have had.
ESEA could really use some help on the administrative side of things, that is one thing that is clear, but the amount of competition, and the opportunity they give is unparalled in other team leagues in North America.
My opinion on the games is that they should be played, however thats because I still view this as a hobby, where we play video games for fun, x6, EG and ESEA all see this as a source of income, so i can see where they draw the line on expectations.
Although I tend to agree that most 'backyard' leagues do have their fair share of nepotism, I don't think there is that much of an overwhelming issue of seeding problems within your average league division. I do agree if you're talking about which certain teams get seeded into certain divisions based on their general background, connections, etc.
However I think that because ESEA charges an entree fee, we -SHOULD- expect more from them. If ESEA is generating $80,000 + a year in prizes for CS, CSS, and TF2, and $5,000 every few months for SC2 then there is obviously room to step up the production, coverage, administration, etc. At the end of the day we're paying for a product through ESEA and as customers we want to see that we are getting our money's worth.
I will reinforce that all things considered I think Da_Bears did a solid job as the single league admin for season 2. With that I also think ESEA should be hiring a few more people to help split the load and offer more in terms of administration to the teams and the players. If I'm paying for my team to compete in ESEA, I expect it to be vastly superior to what the 'backyard' leagues have to offer, not marginally better.
I think you get the idea but I will also add that one could even argue the nepotism you see as a major issue in backyard leagues is perhaps equally as large of an issue as the lack of exclusivity of ESEA. Out of 20 teams that started season 2, only 14 actually finished all of their games. As I said in my previous post this has a poor effect on seeding going into the playoffs. My point is we shouldn't be even talking about the trade offs between ESEA and the other leagues. If they are going to charge for their product, they damn well better produce a great one. And you would think a league with so much monetary backing and years of experience we wouldn't have to be commenting on the mediocrity of the 'brand new' SC2 division after 2 seasons.
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On October 14 2011 08:04 Grampz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 07:00 iNcontroL wrote:
Loving the random new accounts coming in to bash lol they're all from the 1.6 community
It's not surprising. I've been part of the CS community forever and there has always been a really shitty attitude from a great number of players; it's the exact opposite of TeamLiquid, sadly.
CAL was infested with terrible admins and decisions, not to mention the corruption. I'm not saying ESEA is necessarily like this because I simply have no experience with that league. It would not be surprising though based on the history of counter-strike players and admins. New players come in all the time of course, but being young and impressionable, many simply are dragged down to the level of the older players who pointlessly shit talk non-stop, etc.
+ Show Spoiler +This does NOT speak for the whole community, there are certainly hard-working admins and great players who have come out of CS.
On topic, I hope that you're able to get ESEA's SC2 division on the right track, da_bears, things will always go wrong and you can't control that. But what you can control is your response and reform methods, and what you need to do is dedicate yourself to pleasing the community and the players no matter the cost. Take care of your customers, that is the number one priority of any business. Growth and expansion will follow if the SC2 industry continues to grow as well.
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On October 14 2011 08:46 DrTJEckleburg wrote:
It's not surprising. I've been part of the CS community forever and there has always been a really shitty attitude from a great number of players; it's the exact opposite of TeamLiquid, sadly.
You are either trolling or oblivious. There has been plenty of bashing of ESEA simply because incontrol did in this thread. The only difference I have seen between here and the CS scene is people in CS don't delude themselves by saying they are all well-mannered and behaved.
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On October 14 2011 07:00 iNcontroL wrote:
Loving the random new accounts coming in to bash lol
Conspiracy dude. Everybody is out to get you. People coming in from far and wide just to troll Incontrol.
Duck and cover bro.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Lol
How many of your 26 posts are in here?
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On October 14 2011 10:44 iNcontroL wrote:
Lol
How many of your 26 posts are in here?
A lot of us are defending ESEA because we KNOW they are a great league. You had a shitty experience with them. We get that. The thing is they will get much much better with time. They are new to the SC2 scene, but have done so much for the ESPORTS community in NA. So many great managers, players, and owners have come out of the 1.6 community. We will obviously get our leagues back when someone is talking so much shit about it.
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On October 14 2011 11:16 ATLpro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 10:44 iNcontroL wrote:
Lol
How many of your 26 posts are in here? A lot of us are defending ESEA because we KNOW they are a great league. You had a shitty experience with them. We get that. The thing is they will get much much better with time. They are new to the SC2 scene, but have done so much for the ESPORTS community in NA. So many great managers, players, and owners have come out of the 1.6 community. We will obviously get our leagues back when someone is talking so much shit about it.
Everyone understands that, and perhaps the 1.6 and CSS player's input and defense would actually be needed if InControl was bashing ESEA for it's CS and FPS leagues. However he's not. He's bringing up irrefutable points about MAJOR shortcomings within ESEA's SC2 league. You can call me an InControl band wagoner if you'd like but the only reason this thread has any attention whatsoever is because a well known personality like himself is speaking out. Moreover he's actually dead on with his criticisms of the league. Was his tone a bit out of line, sure, get over it. This is not a CS forum, we don't care how great ESEA was for CS and CSS. We care about SC2, and right now the league is extremely lacking.
We can talk all day about how things will improve over time, but as previously mentioned.... season 2 (9) should be considered a failure compared to season 1 (8) with a walk over finals. Not to mention outside of less unplayed matches than season 1, I would say Season 2 had no other major improvements.
Da_Bears sent out a PM to the team leaders about 2 weeks ago asking for a meeting with everyone to get suggestions on improvements for season 3. That is really awesome and I hope he still goes through with the meeting, but it still seems like things are always happening after they should be.
The truth is ESEA is the only real legitimate SC2 league in operation right now for the North Americas (obviously outside of Professional invite only leagues). As we all know NA is quite lacking which is why we are being critical. The league should be more, and we want to see it become more. InControl may be super critical and harsh, but in the end if it really helps make a difference and get the rest of us to also voice our opinions for change then everyone wins. I sure hope that happens because a real team league would do wonders for NA SC2.
Peace out girl scouts.
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Wow! How did I miss this thread! This has been the weekly dose of esports drama I have been missing!
I had not even heard of the ESEA clan league until today and now theres statements from several managers of high profile teams that say that this league was ran terribly and yet the admin calls out the other leagues as backyard run tournaments. Wonder how many will return for the next season?
It must be a pretty uncomfortable position to be in when an organisation that makes money from running leagues realises that the teams that play in their tournaments can do their job better. EGMC, GCPL, FXOPENIS ... heh.
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On October 14 2011 11:16 ATLpro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 10:44 iNcontroL wrote:
Lol
How many of your 26 posts are in here? A lot of us are defending ESEA because we KNOW they are a great league. You had a shitty experience with them. We get that. The thing is they will get much much better with time. They are new to the SC2 scene, but have done so much for the ESPORTS community in NA. So many great managers, players, and owners have come out of the 1.6 community. We will obviously get our leagues back when someone is talking so much shit about it.
Don't bother, he's too busy winnin' stuff.
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On October 15 2011 18:09 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 11:16 ATLpro wrote:On October 14 2011 10:44 iNcontroL wrote:
Lol
How many of your 26 posts are in here? A lot of us are defending ESEA because we KNOW they are a great league. You had a shitty experience with them. We get that. The thing is they will get much much better with time. They are new to the SC2 scene, but have done so much for the ESPORTS community in NA. So many great managers, players, and owners have come out of the 1.6 community. We will obviously get our leagues back when someone is talking so much shit about it. Don't bother, he's too busy winnin' stuff.
Hey, thanks for contributing! Twat.
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I want to apologize for the way things have gone between myself, the sc2 community, team EG and incontrol. I ve said a lot of things I shouldn't have said, made some poor admining decisions and I did not mean any disrespect to EGMC or any other sc2 leagues. This whole thread and how the way esea league has turned out was a huge eye opener on what it takes to run a league and in dealing with people. I hope to minimalize my mistakes in the future and look past this with an open mind and letting this be an example of not what to do. I do thank all of you for your advice and input on the matter and I hope this will not leave a big impression on what I want to do and accomplish for years to come in esports.
-Erik "da bears Stromberg
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less time in this thread more time practicin
your friend,
1-10
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EPT
