It's time again to start a new season of ESEA Starcraft 2! ESEA is heading into its 10th season with counterstike 1.6 and source while continuing its third season of Starcraft 2. With the addition to replay upload to report scores, this last season went very well. Our goal for season 3 is to add more coverage and live streams for the viewers to watch with match of the week which can be found at http://www.eseanews.com.
-The format will still be team 1v1 bo3 matchups first team to 3 wins -Map list TBD -Prize pool of $5000 -8 week format with 2 matches a week
Sign ups end on 10/17/11 and you must have 4 confirmed paid members to secure a spot. You can click here s10 registration to sign up.
Create a team and register for season 10 of starcraft 2, you do not need to pay for ESEA premium to participate, only the league fee which is $8.00 per person.
If anyone has any questions or concerns please email me at dabears@esportsea.com or post in this thread. I will be attending MLG orlando this coming weekend if anyone would like to talk to me about the league. I'm looking forward to this season and to see you guys play.
Starcraft 2 League Commissioner, Erik "da bears" Stromberg
On October 11 2011 22:23 juked wrote: Nice job getting ESEA in this. Very good company for source and can only see benefits to SC2
Thanks, doing a whole new game genre has been challenging but ESEA is coming along nicely and we are improving. I really want to have good coverage and streams for matches this season. I love watching Starcraft 2 matches and watching the GSL has been so pleasurable to me.
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
Nah it was horrible management by ESEA.
We waited several weeks for the other teams to catch up in schedule. It was delayed over and over again and finally ESEA steps in and wants to put their foot down on a schedule that is exactly at the same time as IPL. The internet goes down at IPL and we cannot play but ESEA decides it is best to just award a w/o in the grand finals of their tourney.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals? Nobody wants to see a w/o.. people are here to see games. But hey, if you guys want to just shuffle money our direction and continue to run a clan league that nobody is watching/caring about then that is fine. If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
Nah it was horrible management by ESEA.
We waited several weeks for the other teams to catch up in schedule. It was delayed over and over again and finally ESEA steps in and wants to put their foot down on a schedule that is exactly at the same time as IPL. The internet goes down at IPL and we cannot play but ESEA decides it is best to just award a w/o in the grand finals of their tourney.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals? Nobody wants to see a w/o.. people are here to see games. But hey, if you guys want to just shuffle money our direction and continue to run a clan league that nobody is watching/caring about then that is fine. If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
Hey Incontrol I know the world revolves around you and such, but ESEA is the premier clan league in North America. It turns out they don't only do Starcraft 2 and Starcraft 2 isn't the only game being played, but I'm glad awarding the other team a w/o instantly makes them second class. Everybody doesn't bend over backwards to get fucked by EG? Well then fuck them.
It's posts like this that garner you so many haters. The ESEA admin makes a non inflammatory post that blames nobody, and you come back and talk a load of shit. If somebody said something like this about NASL you would have a half hour sob session on SoTG before making a public scene about how everybody attacks you.
Basically, nobody wants to hear your hypocritical shit. Thanks.
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
Nah it was horrible management by ESEA.
We waited several weeks for the other teams to catch up in schedule. It was delayed over and over again and finally ESEA steps in and wants to put their foot down on a schedule that is exactly at the same time as IPL. The internet goes down at IPL and we cannot play but ESEA decides it is best to just award a w/o in the grand finals of their tourney.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals? Nobody wants to see a w/o.. people are here to see games. But hey, if you guys want to just shuffle money our direction and continue to run a clan league that nobody is watching/caring about then that is fine. If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
Yea that sounds incredibly stupid. Awarding prize money of that magnitude due to w.o should never ever happen. I'm not sure how much of a say x6 had in all of this, but accepting prize money for getting a w.o is kinda lame too. A championship should always be decided by a final game, never a w.o >.<
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
Nah it was horrible management by ESEA.
We waited several weeks for the other teams to catch up in schedule. It was delayed over and over again and finally ESEA steps in and wants to put their foot down on a schedule that is exactly at the same time as IPL. The internet goes down at IPL and we cannot play but ESEA decides it is best to just award a w/o in the grand finals of their tourney.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals? Nobody wants to see a w/o.. people are here to see games. But hey, if you guys want to just shuffle money our direction and continue to run a clan league that nobody is watching/caring about then that is fine. If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
yea man, NASL's 1st season was great also...give ESEA a break
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
Nah it was horrible management by ESEA.
We waited several weeks for the other teams to catch up in schedule. It was delayed over and over again and finally ESEA steps in and wants to put their foot down on a schedule that is exactly at the same time as IPL. The internet goes down at IPL and we cannot play but ESEA decides it is best to just award a w/o in the grand finals of their tourney.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals? Nobody wants to see a w/o.. people are here to see games. But hey, if you guys want to just shuffle money our direction and continue to run a clan league that nobody is watching/caring about then that is fine. If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
Hey Incontrol I know the world revolves around you and such, but ESEA is the premier clan league in North America. It turns out they don't only do Starcraft 2 and Starcraft 2 isn't the only game being played, but I'm glad awarding the other team a w/o instantly makes them second class. Everybody doesn't bend over backwards to get fucked by EG? Well then fuck them.
It's posts like this that garner you so many haters. The ESEA admin makes a non inflammatory post that blames nobody, and you come back and talk a load of shit. If somebody said something like this about NASL you would have a half hour sob session on SoTG before making a public scene about how everybody attacks you.
Basically, nobody wants to hear your hypocritical shit. Thanks.
The thing is is that NA is in desperate need for some sort of clan league that is reputable and reliable. So many leagues have been established already, and almost all of them are dead due to horrible organization and management.
The demand is there, and if ESEA wants to take on that project its great, but do it properly. I believe last season they charged $9/person to play in the league. I have been managing a team for a long time and I have never had to pay to enter into an event before (except for live events). Needless to say, if I'm paying money for something like this it better be damn worth it. I'm not sure how the league itself was run, but the decision making that took place in the end seems a little sub-par for a league that boasts itself as a top league in NA e-sports. Bottom line is that if you are entering and participating in a "premium" league, stuff like this shouldn't happen. Play the games, it's the way it was intended to be.
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
Nah it was horrible management by ESEA.
We waited several weeks for the other teams to catch up in schedule. It was delayed over and over again and finally ESEA steps in and wants to put their foot down on a schedule that is exactly at the same time as IPL. The internet goes down at IPL and we cannot play but ESEA decides it is best to just award a w/o in the grand finals of their tourney.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals? Nobody wants to see a w/o.. people are here to see games. But hey, if you guys want to just shuffle money our direction and continue to run a clan league that nobody is watching/caring about then that is fine. If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
Hey Incontrol I know the world revolves around you and such, but ESEA is the premier clan league in North America. It turns out they don't only do Starcraft 2 and Starcraft 2 isn't the only game being played, but I'm glad awarding the other team a w/o instantly makes them second class. Everybody doesn't bend over backwards to get fucked by EG? Well then fuck them.
It's posts like this that garner you so many haters. The ESEA admin makes a non inflammatory post that blames nobody, and you come back and talk a load of shit. If somebody said something like this about NASL you would have a half hour sob session on SoTG before making a public scene about how everybody attacks you.
Basically, nobody wants to hear your hypocritical shit. Thanks.
ESEA was doing this crap the season before as well. I hadn't followed this league because it's impossible to follow it anyway, but good to know that their rules and schedules are getting worse over time...
BTW that's really disgusting to award a finals walkover lol ........
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
Nah it was horrible management by ESEA.
We waited several weeks for the other teams to catch up in schedule. It was delayed over and over again and finally ESEA steps in and wants to put their foot down on a schedule that is exactly at the same time as IPL. The internet goes down at IPL and we cannot play but ESEA decides it is best to just award a w/o in the grand finals of their tourney.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals? Nobody wants to see a w/o.. people are here to see games. But hey, if you guys want to just shuffle money our direction and continue to run a clan league that nobody is watching/caring about then that is fine. If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
Incontrol, I have talked to EG management on the phone and it is unfortunate what has happened. I do not wish to go into details on a public forum to bash your team but handle this in a professional way. There are always 2 sides to a story and it was your team that could not make the finals, whether you attend a major lan or not. Our league does not revolve around EG and their busy schedules. If you cannot field 4 ppl out of your 8 man roster then I'd suggest getting back ups for situations like that. Sometimes things get delayed, especially online leagues, I've been talking to your managers all season about scheduling and everything. To say that it was horrible schedule management is just bashing with out even thinking when you weren't involved in any of it.
Awarding a walkover finals is the absolute last thing I EVER want to do, I had no choice because ESEA is on a time schedule and I post-poned as much as possible to bend over for many teams. I am sorry that you guys had to forfeit and each season is running better and better.
Excuse me? We were current on our cw's for literally 2 weeks WAITING for the other teams to finish their cw's before the finals. We literally had a 2 week window of time where a competent league would have gotten the other teams current on their schedules and allowed a window of time for the finals to be played instead of "we are waiting, waiting waiting.. OH ok we have 2 teams now! You have 2 days to play it! Can't? Ah ok, sup x6 is winner!"
Don't give me this "the world doesn't revolve around EG" bullshit. I am not asking it to nor do I think it does. I am talking about a league that is artificially rigid with it's timelines whenever it suits the few individuals and not the greater league. You didn't ever say "it must be played by X date" you just simply sucked ass at getting teams to play in a timely fashion and decided to punish EG who was ahead of schedule for a long time. It's bullshit.
You saying "EG should have backups" when discussing the finals btw is hilarious. Do you have any fucking interest in a finals for a league? Do you care about the games integrity at all?
And no, each season is not running better and better. This season ended with a walkover and a shitty thread announcing the next season with a "oh btw here are the places for the previous season: "
PS EG could play from IPL. We played infinity6 from there. We couldn't play the DAY ESEA demanded we play because the net was down at IPL and it was running behind schedule. So ESEA instead of working with us awarded the w/o to x6.
Telling us to play with backups or "it's not our fault you attended a major lan" is such bullshit.
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
Nah it was horrible management by ESEA.
We waited several weeks for the other teams to catch up in schedule. It was delayed over and over again and finally ESEA steps in and wants to put their foot down on a schedule that is exactly at the same time as IPL. The internet goes down at IPL and we cannot play but ESEA decides it is best to just award a w/o in the grand finals of their tourney.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals? Nobody wants to see a w/o.. people are here to see games. But hey, if you guys want to just shuffle money our direction and continue to run a clan league that nobody is watching/caring about then that is fine. If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
Incontrol, I have talked to EG management on the phone and it is unfortunate what has happened. I do not wish to go into details on a public forum to bash your team but handle this in a professional way. There are always 2 sides to a story and it was your team that could not make the finals, whether you attend a major lan or not. Our league does not revolve around EG and their busy schedules. If you cannot field 4 ppl out of your 8 man roster then I'd suggest getting back ups for situations like that. Sometimes things get delayed, especially online leagues, I've been talking to your managers all season about scheduling and everything. To say that it was horrible schedule management is just bashing with out even thinking when you weren't involved in any of it.
Awarding a walkover finals is the absolute last thing I EVER want to do, I had no choice because ESEA is on a time schedule and I post-poned as much as possible to bend over for many teams. I am sorry that you guys had to forfeit and each season is running better and better.
Excuse me? We were current on our cw's for literally 2 weeks WAITING for the other teams to finish their cw's before the finals. We literally had a 2 week window of time where a competent league would have gotten the other teams current on their schedules and allowed a window of time for the finals to be played instead of "we are waiting, waiting waiting.. OH ok we have 2 teams now! You have 2 days to play it! Can't? Ah ok, sup x6 is winner!"
Don't give me this "the world doesn't revolve around EG" bullshit. I am not asking it to nor do I think it does. I am talking about a league that is artificially rigid with it's timelines whenever it suits the few individuals and not the greater league. You didn't ever say "it must be played by X date" you just simply sucked ass at getting teams to play in a timely fashion and decided to punish EG who was ahead of schedule for a long time. It's bullshit.
You saying "EG should have backups" when discussing the finals btw is hilarious. Do you have any fucking interest in a finals for a league? Do you care about the games integrity at all?
And no, each season is not running better and better. This season ended with a walkover and a shitty thread announcing the next season with a "oh btw here are the places for the previous season: "
On October 12 2011 04:02 iNcontroL wrote: PS EG could play from IPL. We played infinity6 from there. We couldn't play the DAY ESEA demanded we play because the net was down at IPL and it was running behind schedule. So ESEA instead of working with us awarded the w/o to x6.
Telling us to play with backups or "it's not our fault you attended a major lan" is such bullshit.
tell me more about this infinity6 team they sound really interesting
Basically what Incontrol is saying was that EG knew when the finals would be played for weeks and were banking on the fact that even though they were at IPL they could still play the finals from there.
The net happened to be down that day, so they got a FF loss.
This of course equals ESEA being a horrible, terrible league that hates EG and putting on good finals. It has nothing to do with EG banking on playing an online finals from a LAN and getting unlucky.
Anyways, ESEA probably took the internet down at IPL just so EG couldn't play.
tldr; Incontrol.Calm the fuck down son, you are about to have a combination fat & rage induced heart attack because your team made a mistake.
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
Nah it was horrible management by ESEA.
We waited several weeks for the other teams to catch up in schedule. It was delayed over and over again and finally ESEA steps in and wants to put their foot down on a schedule that is exactly at the same time as IPL. The internet goes down at IPL and we cannot play but ESEA decides it is best to just award a w/o in the grand finals of their tourney.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals? Nobody wants to see a w/o.. people are here to see games. But hey, if you guys want to just shuffle money our direction and continue to run a clan league that nobody is watching/caring about then that is fine. If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
Incontrol, I have talked to EG management on the phone and it is unfortunate what has happened. I do not wish to go into details on a public forum to bash your team but handle this in a professional way. There are always 2 sides to a story and it was your team that could not make the finals, whether you attend a major lan or not. Our league does not revolve around EG and their busy schedules. If you cannot field 4 ppl out of your 8 man roster then I'd suggest getting back ups for situations like that. Sometimes things get delayed, especially online leagues, I've been talking to your managers all season about scheduling and everything. To say that it was horrible schedule management is just bashing with out even thinking when you weren't involved in any of it.
Awarding a walkover finals is the absolute last thing I EVER want to do, I had no choice because ESEA is on a time schedule and I post-poned as much as possible to bend over for many teams. I am sorry that you guys had to forfeit and each season is running better and better.
Excuse me? We were current on our cw's for literally 2 weeks WAITING for the other teams to finish their cw's before the finals. We literally had a 2 week window of time where a competent league would have gotten the other teams current on their schedules and allowed a window of time for the finals to be played instead of "we are waiting, waiting waiting.. OH ok we have 2 teams now! You have 2 days to play it! Can't? Ah ok, sup x6 is winner!"
Don't give me this "the world doesn't revolve around EG" bullshit. I am not asking it to nor do I think it does. I am talking about a league that is artificially rigid with it's timelines whenever it suits the few individuals and not the greater league. You didn't ever say "it must be played by X date" you just simply sucked ass at getting teams to play in a timely fashion and decided to punish EG who was ahead of schedule for a long time. It's bullshit.
You saying "EG should have backups" when discussing the finals btw is hilarious. Do you have any fucking interest in a finals for a league? Do you care about the games integrity at all?
And no, each season is not running better and better. This season ended with a walkover and a shitty thread announcing the next season with a "oh btw here are the places for the previous season: "
Kidding me? That sounds better to you?
I told colbi weeks in advanced that you guys would be playing near that day. I do not know why you are trying to throw a fit when colbi new well in advanced what day you guys would be playing
I am throwing a fit because ESEA is willing to w/o their finals and not work with teams to play BEFORE the lan (we were ready to do it) OR a day after the lan (we are playing TL just fine today thanks).
Is the league starting today? Is today some kind of huge holiday in ESEA land? Is it so busy today that ESEA can't have a ref... oh wait, they never have refs at clan wars. In fact ALL ESEA has to do is ACCEPT THE REPLAYS from the cw. Obviously today they are too busy.
But all of this is ignoring what I have been saying.. you told colbi the finals COULD be played on that day? great, EG has been telling YOU we are ready to go any day before that weekend and your league was running behind schedule (obviously no w/o's.. we wouldn't want that in the pre finals now would we?) and then finals rolls around and you go "it MUST be played today.. oh no net? Sup x6 wins!"
I wonder whether or not you will pay any heed to this message. I guess I will start off sweet to try and keep you from instantly skipping it and calling me a hater.
I think you are a great community personality and player. I love you on SoTG, I enjoy your stream, I find your dedication to the game inspiring.
However, I also find you to be a really abrasive and immature member of the community at times - typically on the forums.
You have a really warped sense of the world, one in which everybody is out to get you. They aren't. When somebody criticizes you, or NASL, or something EG did, or when something going wrong for you, EG, etc... it isn't a purposeful and widespread vendetta to ruin you and your affiliates lives.
I think it must really suck to be you. The whole world doesn't hate you, but you sure seem to think so. That sucks.
Here's my advice. Get over it. Get over yourself, your team, your insecurity. Not everybody is a hater. Not everything is going to go your way. Not everybody will like you.
And it is inappropriate and embarrassing to aggressively and childishly attack and insult anything you see as 'attacking' you or yours.
------
specifically, in this case, stop acting like a fucking child and bashing ESEA. You are a professional, act like one.
Attend online finals if they matter to you when you have their schedule weeks in advance. Or don't attend them because you have a LAN, that's fine. But then don't turn around and bash the online league for holding their finals when they said they would.
Anyone who has played in ESEA leagues or is familiar with ESEA knows how shit they really are. (sorry da_bears this is not directed at you but higher powers) In CS finals if you do NOT attend their lan they ban you for a year, what the helllllllll really. lpKane(he started esea with torbull) has been an unprofessional prick for years and refuses to change, his business model is just all wrong and moving in the wrong direction. Yet they're still in business because simply every other league in NA for CS has collapsed.
I'm really sure I'm hearing both sides of this story but I feel like they should reschedule the grand finals of a league when your playing for money with professional teams. But if what da_bears is saying and that the scheduling was sound for awhile... i dunno
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
Nah it was horrible management by ESEA.
We waited several weeks for the other teams to catch up in schedule. It was delayed over and over again and finally ESEA steps in and wants to put their foot down on a schedule that is exactly at the same time as IPL. The internet goes down at IPL and we cannot play but ESEA decides it is best to just award a w/o in the grand finals of their tourney.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals? Nobody wants to see a w/o.. people are here to see games. But hey, if you guys want to just shuffle money our direction and continue to run a clan league that nobody is watching/caring about then that is fine. If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
Incontrol, I have talked to EG management on the phone and it is unfortunate what has happened. I do not wish to go into details on a public forum to bash your team but handle this in a professional way. There are always 2 sides to a story and it was your team that could not make the finals, whether you attend a major lan or not. Our league does not revolve around EG and their busy schedules. If you cannot field 4 ppl out of your 8 man roster then I'd suggest getting back ups for situations like that. Sometimes things get delayed, especially online leagues, I've been talking to your managers all season about scheduling and everything. To say that it was horrible schedule management is just bashing with out even thinking when you weren't involved in any of it.
Awarding a walkover finals is the absolute last thing I EVER want to do, I had no choice because ESEA is on a time schedule and I post-poned as much as possible to bend over for many teams. I am sorry that you guys had to forfeit and each season is running better and better.
Excuse me? We were current on our cw's for literally 2 weeks WAITING for the other teams to finish their cw's before the finals. We literally had a 2 week window of time where a competent league would have gotten the other teams current on their schedules and allowed a window of time for the finals to be played instead of "we are waiting, waiting waiting.. OH ok we have 2 teams now! You have 2 days to play it! Can't? Ah ok, sup x6 is winner!"
Don't give me this "the world doesn't revolve around EG" bullshit. I am not asking it to nor do I think it does. I am talking about a league that is artificially rigid with it's timelines whenever it suits the few individuals and not the greater league. You didn't ever say "it must be played by X date" you just simply sucked ass at getting teams to play in a timely fashion and decided to punish EG who was ahead of schedule for a long time. It's bullshit.
You saying "EG should have backups" when discussing the finals btw is hilarious. Do you have any fucking interest in a finals for a league? Do you care about the games integrity at all?
And no, each season is not running better and better. This season ended with a walkover and a shitty thread announcing the next season with a "oh btw here are the places for the previous season: "
Kidding me? That sounds better to you?
I told colbi weeks in advanced that you guys would be playing near that day. I do not know why you are trying to throw a fit when colbi new well in advanced what day you guys would be playing
I am throwing a fit because ESEA is willing to w/o their finals and not work with teams to play BEFORE the lan (we were ready to do it) OR a day after the lan (we are playing TL just fine today thanks).
Is the league starting today? Is today some kind of huge holiday in ESEA land? Is it so busy today that ESEA can't have a ref... oh wait, they never have refs at clan wars. In fact ALL ESEA has to do is ACCEPT THE REPLAYS from the cw. Obviously today they are too busy.
But all of this is ignoring what I have been saying.. you told colbi the finals COULD be played on that day? great, EG has been telling YOU we are ready to go any day before that weekend and your league was running behind schedule (obviously no w/o's.. we wouldn't want that in the pre finals now would we?) and then finals rolls around and you go "it MUST be played today.. oh no net? Sup x6 wins!"
It's fucking terrible.
You do not run ESEA, you do not know how the system works. This isn't your backyard online league, they have to plan for the year on expenses and fit it to a time frame to maximize profit to keep the league going. You don't run a successful league for many years by just winging it. I went beyond the due date and delayed even the other games in our league because sc2 went a little delayed.
You are bashing me and ESEA because we couldn't fit your time schedule at a major LAN. Get backups, every team in every major sports have back up players. Just cause you cant use puma idra doesn't mean your team is down and out. I would think a person of your status would be reasonable and act a little more professional on a public forum.
It's funny. You go "I would think a person of your status would be reasonable and act a little more professional on a public forum."
On the heels of you explaining that your league is hugely successful and blah blah blah.. but then go on to explain that we should have backups for the finals of your league, never answer my points about us being ready weeks in advance and you setting up artificial constraints.
You are right, I don't run ESEA... if I did I wouldn't w/o the finals and then announce the next season with "oh btw here are last seasons standings" in a post in my own thread.
Don't give me crap about ESEA needs time to budget the year etc. We are talking about a couple days to play the finals. If you REALLY think you have your priorities straight and literally budgeting gets in the way of playing finals then you REALLY have no fucking clue. Don't take some high horse attitude and allude to a bunch of shit ESEA HAS to do RIGHT NOW. You made a choice and now you are defending it like there is no other way.. I get that. You have to do that because otherwise you look really dumb. I am going to complain because my team got robbed unfairly of a chance to win a title. I am now understanding that ESEA simply isn't going to be a force in SC2.
Nobody hears anything about ESEA matches. Nobody visits the website. Nobody knows shit about your league and it's a shame. You have a huge prize pool and have ran successful leagues in the past for other games. You really think giving a walkover under these circumstances and then trying to explain that ESEA is simply too busy to play the finals and EG should have a B squad to play for the finals is smart? Really? We had Strife and Ax NOT at that lan. That is it. We literally have everyone else at the lan. So you recommend we play 2 rounds with 2 guys and then w/o the rest. Great. You seem to be a fantastic league admin.
I am with Incontrol on this one. If anyone has ever dealt with ESEA and know what kind of idiots their admins can be or are, they would totally side with Incontrol on this one. I am not a fan of him nor a hater, simply neutral.
I came from TF2 community and ESEA was one of many team leagues for TF2. After having 5-6 Seasons of shit servers and horrible scheduling, they decided to drop TF2 unless certain amount of people/teams would sign up. They got the number they needed and had the money, and all promises that were made for community were pretty much forgotten.
ESEA should never be associated with SC2, they would only bring trolls and more hate.
Dbizzle talks about how ESEA is suppose to maximize profits yet they would rather a walk over win in their finals instead of streaming it?
EG simply needed one more day because of the internet being down at IPL and seeing as you were so gracious in waiting for other teams to finish their regular season games, it makes little sense you couldn't delay it another 24 hours.
By planning expenses for the year, you mean ESEA would lose money if they waited 24 hours for the replays to be sent in? Incontrol even stated you guys never produced any admins to spectate the games so what exactly were you going to have to spend extra money on if the finals were delayed?
Btw, you may not have wanted this information public but since it is now.... You should probably do a bit better of a job explaining ESEA's side of the story cause right now it looks like you guys just pissed all over EG.
PS. if your going to tell Incontrol to not tell ESEA how to run its league, don't tell EG to recruit more players just to fit ESEA's schedule.
On October 12 2011 05:13 AnodyneSea wrote: Anyone who has played in ESEA leagues or is familiar with ESEA knows how shit they really are. (sorry da_bears this is not directed at you but higher powers) In CS finals if you do NOT attend their lan they ban you for a year, what the helllllllll really. lpKane(he started esea with torbull) has been an unprofessional prick for years and refuses to change, his business model is just all wrong and moving in the wrong direction. Yet they're still in business because simply every other league in NA for CS has collapsed.
I'm really sure I'm hearing both sides of this story but I feel like they should reschedule the grand finals of a league when your playing for money with professional teams. But if what da_bears is saying and that the scheduling was sound for awhile... i dunno
ps really really hate esea
ESEA system is a little different than most leagues, but once you get used to it its really easy to handle. Torbull and lpkane are business men, they are very good at what they do. They ban teams for not showing to finals because they put ESEA's own money into helping people pay flights and run a venue and those are some of the reasons why they haven't collapsed like all the other online leagues. To play a whole season, do well, and then not show up to a lan, thats not only a slap in the face to ESEA but to all the fans who spectate the sport. You have your right to not like ESEA or the people that run it, but you have to respect that ESEA is good at what they do.
HAHAHA WAIT WAIT
you think it's bad to not show up to the finals right?
SO HOW THE HELL do you justify not allowing EG to show up to the finals? We literally NEEDED A DAY on either side of that exact date.. a fucking eagle hit a truck and knocked the internet out for the entire state for a day. We played a CW the day before (after waiting 2 weeks for horribad ESEA to get the other teams current on their schedule) AND we could play MONDAY the day after our artificial deadline....
You want to talk about losing money? You want to talk about butchering marketing and slaps to the face? You fucking gave money to 3 teams 2 of which didn't play a final. Nobody watched it. No ad revenue. No news. No hype. NOTHING. You literally RAN AN ENTIRE LEAGUE only to get to the finals and then die. You wasted a years worth of money building NOTHING and now you are murdering your league's integrity in a new game.. the BIGGEST game in eSports atm (maybe outside of LoL).
On October 12 2011 05:13 AnodyneSea wrote: Anyone who has played in ESEA leagues or is familiar with ESEA knows how shit they really are. (sorry da_bears this is not directed at you but higher powers) In CS finals if you do NOT attend their lan they ban you for a year, what the helllllllll really. lpKane(he started esea with torbull) has been an unprofessional prick for years and refuses to change, his business model is just all wrong and moving in the wrong direction. Yet they're still in business because simply every other league in NA for CS has collapsed.
I'm really sure I'm hearing both sides of this story but I feel like they should reschedule the grand finals of a league when your playing for money with professional teams. But if what da_bears is saying and that the scheduling was sound for awhile... i dunno
ps really really hate esea
ESEA system is a little different than most leagues, but once you get used to it its really easy to handle. Torbull and lpkane are business men, they are very good at what they do. They ban teams for not showing to finals because they put ESEA's own money into helping people pay flights and run a venue and those are some of the reasons why they haven't collapsed like all the other online leagues. To play a whole season, do well, and then not show up to a lan, thats not only a slap in the face to ESEA but to all the fans who spectate the sport. You have your right to not like ESEA or the people that run it, but you have to respect that ESEA is good at what they do.
I don't have much in depth knowledge of ESEA in terms of CS, but saying ESEA is good at what they do is just a dumb thing to say, if a tournament ends with a walkover in the finals its pretty easy to consider it a failure, regardless of where you want to place the blame. A "good" tournament will not have a walkover in the finals.
edit: Really agree with iNcontrol above... this league has potential because of the long history with CS and brand, but there is no hype, no stream, no nothing.
Putting aside the shit that happened with the finals, I want to state my opinion on something I said after last season that I seriously hope you guys consider for season 3, because I feel that it's one of many major things holding your league back. You seriously need to up your coverage, because it has been extremely pathetic. It's almost as if you put no effort what so ever in letting people know your league exist. Aside from a couple of threads that popped up with teams casting replays of their matches, indicating they have obviously won, there has been absolutely nothing.
These backyard online leagues as call you them to make ESEA look like God's gift eSports, do a way better job than ESEA has done for the past two season. SGL, SCL, GCPL and MCSL all run/ran by a handful of people, some even 1 person, do/did a way better job than ESEA in terms of coverage. Last season no one knew how it had ended til coL opened a thread with stream casting replays, indicating they had obviously won. And now this, a thread announcing season 3 and a derp comment with the standings. That's really terrible for a league that carries the ESEA name. And lets be honest, if you league did not have the ESEA name, you would practically be nothing. I can go to your site and practically not find anything about this league (Replays, standing, results, schedule and etc.)
Start opening live report threads, make an R&S thread. Do something in terms of coverage.
I actually just signed up thinking it was a 1v1 league so now im paid and ready to play but have no team. If anyone out there is interested in a team hit me up via private msg.
On October 12 2011 05:28 GenoZStriker wrote: Putting aside the shit that happened with the finals, I want to state my opinion on something I said last after last season that I seriously hope you guys consider for season 3, because I feel that it's one of many major things holding your league back. You seriously need to up your coverage, because it has been extremely pathetic. It's almost as if you put no effort what so ever in letting people know your league exist. Aside from a couple of threads that popped up with teams casting replays of their matches, indicating they have obviously won, there has been absolutely nothing.
These backyard online leagues as call you them to make ESEA look like God's gift eSports, do a way better job than ESEA has done for the past two season. SGL, SCL, GCPL and MCSL all run/ran by a handful of people, some even 1 person, do/did a way better job than ESEA in terms of coverage. Last season no one knew how it had ended til coL opened a thread with stream casting replays, indicating they had obviously won. And now this, a thread announcing season 3 and a derp comment with the standings. That's really terrible for a league that carries the ESEA name. And lets be honest, if you league did not have the ESEA name, you would practically be nothing. I can go to your site and practically not find anything about this league (Replays, standing, results, schedule and etc.)
Start opening live report threads, make an R&S thread. Do something in terms of coverage.
Things like this are immensely needed also. No one ever knows wtf is going on with these leagues. ESEA basically leaves it up to the players/teams to advertise their own cws, and if people follow any SC2 during the ESEA season it is solely due to the fact that that team has advertising the upcoming match or w/e it is.
On October 12 2011 05:28 GenoZStriker wrote: Putting aside the shit that happened with the finals, I want to state my opinion on something I said last after last season that I seriously hope you guys consider for season 3, because I feel that it's one of many major things holding your league back. You seriously need to up your coverage, because it has been extremely pathetic. It's almost as if you put no effort what so ever in letting people know your league exist. Aside from a couple of threads that popped up with teams casting replays of their matches, indicating they have obviously won, there has been absolutely nothing.
These backyard online leagues as call you them to make ESEA look like God's gift eSports, do a way better job than ESEA has done for the past two season. SGL, SCL, GCPL and MCSL all run/ran by a handful of people, some even 1 person, do/did a way better job than ESEA in terms of coverage. Last season no one knew how it had ended til coL opened a thread with stream casting replays, indicating they had obviously won. And now this, a thread announcing season 3 and a derp comment with the standings. That's really terrible for a league that carries the ESEA name. And lets be honest, if you league did not have the ESEA name, you would practically be nothing. I can go to your site and practically not find anything about this league (Replays, standing, results, schedule and etc.)
Start opening live report threads, make an R&S thread. Do something in terms of coverage.
Agreed 100%. It's neat that you can get together so many teams for a league with a decent prize pool, but I really don't think anyone outside of the actual participants knew the season was even going on (Speaking from someone who played in last season). I would hope that a league that requires every player on the roster to pay a fee to even play should be able to get some sort of coverage.
I remember at one point on the ESEA site (which isn't formatted for SC2 matches at all, it's impossible to find result information unless you know where to look) there were claims that DJWheat 'might' cast some games, which I believe never happened. Last season's thread on TL was laughable as well. It wast just a bunch of un-formatted paragraphs that had some typos. It wasn't until mid-season that someone edited it to be somewhat presentable.
This league has/had the potential to be an amazing league but there are a lot of oversights that could be fixed I believe.
On October 12 2011 05:39 dbizzle wrote: I'm in the same boat as you guys for a walk over finals, I gave EG the time frame which they would be playing. It is unfortunate that your internet went out, that's why you need backups for situations like this.
As for coverage, there will be a lot more coverage this season. I understand your concerns and ESEA is improving every season, I've talked to the managers through out the season about all the problems and what can be done better.
My problem with you incontrol is that you are pretty ignorant in this entire argument and have to disrespect me by calling me and ESEA names. Yes there are problems, but ESEA and I are fixing them and will be better in season 3. As season 2 was better than season 1, you can ask all the teams that participated.
If calling names is your primary concern here then excuse me. Let me withdraw the name calling and distill it to the most pure form of my message cause you continue to ignore my primary point and then blabber on and on about how we need back ups.. as if that is any of your business.
1. We were ready for 2 weeks. ESEA's league was running behind schedule. EG was ahead of schedule. We are awarded no leniency on a 1 day magical deadline that you made up.
2. The finals weren't played. You gave a w/o because monday October 10th of 2011 is ESEA's budgeting day for the year. They cannot afford to play their finals for the entire season and would rather have 0 marketing and hand out money for a terrible season of disappointments.
3. You call every other league "backyard" and me "ignorant" then assume you have some infinite wisdom on what it takes to run a horrific and terrible league like ESEA and how we peons have no way of comprehending the monday October 10th workload.
4. Your league was ran terribly. No advertising. No results. No marketing. No finals. Terrible admin decision. No refs present at CW's. Other teams run weeks behind schedule, 0 punishment. EG is at IPL and can't play finals on 1 day? W/O forfeit the finals!
Again, if you're really upset I called names I apologize. Let me subjectively say for the reasons above your league is a failure. Future seasons will run with this in mind. You as an admin are inadequate and bad given the transgressions that have occurred. ESEA has been a terrible league for other games in the past as well. It would seem this is going to continue in SC2.
For future reference: It'd be best if you didn't continue to try and slander me by calling me unprofessional, other leagues "backyard" and go on about how special the ESEA league is in a thread discussing a major fuck up. But what do I know? I have no idea how to run a league right!?
PS: Season 1 and 2 are the same pile of shit but at least in season 1 they played the finals.. and no I don't need to ask "all the teams that participated" I don't know if you some how forgot but EG took second in season 1 as well! We were there.
I don't want your respect I want a competent league that doesn't give w/o's in the finals. I want an admin who can admit he was wrong and not continue to go "ESEA is the best!" and then later admit "well this is my first time running a league" No shit? I couldn't tell.. well here is some huge advice GET THE FINALS PLAYED.
Want me to act professional in regards to your league? Then run a professional league. You yourself talked about giving respect and getting it. Well guess what? That sword cuts both ways. I have 0 respect for ESEA thus far. Want my respect? Stop being a shit league that makes up rules around the finals and would rather w/o a team than play the finals.
Ironically the most PR ESEA will get in 2 seasons will be me talking about this on SOTG.
I see alot of negativity going on in this thread, no one seems to see any of the positives ESEA is striving for. A few things I liked about this League, one being it was pretty automated...you could set your roster and once the other team had done so you'd know your matches ahead of time, giving you time to prepare in advance, this was nice. I do believe more admins are needed, though. Thankfully though you could report most of the time without requring admin assistance...I think ESEA is trying to improve upon the mistakes they've made in previous seasons, we should atleast give them a chance to remedy any problems this season had. I'm looking forward to the next season hopefully some can look past the ordeal with the finals and move forward!
Yeah I must say, after playing in ESEA for 4-5 seasons in CS and then playing in 1 season of SC2, Their SC2 division sucks. Its not smooth, cant see no stats, their SC2 division isnt even known in all 50 states. There is no advertising from them besides TeamLiquid. Not enough people know about it to care or survive. And most of all, alot of bad teams dont want to pay $9 out of their pocket to lose vs EG, coL, Gosu etc..
On October 12 2011 06:00 dbizzle wrote: I never called every other league a "backyard" or talk about the way you run your league. I apologized to your manager and all the other team managers via msging and on the phone about the delays and hiccups that happened in ESEA. You have your right to say whatever you want to say and voice your opinions on the league.
I am learning how to run a better league with each season and things will be improved. The way we run things are a little different, yea the coverage was very little, but thats ok. In due time things will get rolling and you will see a lot more coverage with ESEA sc2.
This is my first league I have ever ran and I've made some mistakes and learning new things every week. I am grateful that ESEA is branching off into sc2 and looking forward to season 3.
Name calling is just immature and unprofessional, I am here to let you guys know of a new season and to get your feedback. If you're that type of person who would rather bitch and yell and pull out your hair because something went wrong instead of calmly assessing the situation, thats cool man. Just do it in respect, other wise you wont get any respect thrown back at you.
I don't think you quite get what needs to be done yet.
Right now your publicity and marketing are so far behind the schedule its unacceptable to even consider asking for league entry fees or awarding prizes. Heck you even had entrants who entered thinking was 1v1 because of how poorly presented the league is. You're just lucky that it has received so little coverage.
I don't see InControl here asking for a CW finals REMATCH or anything like that at all. The fact he has to make it public that your league just 'ran' with a walkover finals without any clear justification. Given there was absolutely no effect of whether the finals was held the same day (which team EG intended to honor), or a day after makes a pretty clear case that the management decision was absolute rubbish. Especially if higher-ups make a decision saying they 'can't wait', it just shows how little respect ESEA has for the players and teams of the league. Doesn't matter that they pitch money to fly people to finals, the mere fact they think it's okay to announce a w/o knowing there was internet outage. Hell it's better PR salvage to withdraw the w/o decision than to just pretend to be ignorant about the outage.
There is a very clear process of actions that need to be done to rectify this. You cannot make a claim that the league is great and well run considering even you yourself admit this is your first league that you have run. It has been made clear on this thread there were many complaints about the ways things happened - no publicity, no admins, no penalties until finals, no consideration for teams who FOLLOWED rules.
ESEA needs to release a public apology to teams for the poor management of the league.
On October 12 2011 06:13 strength wrote: Yeah I must say, after playing in ESEA for 4-5 seasons in CS and then playing in 1 season of SC2, Their SC2 division sucks. Its not smooth, cant see no stats, their SC2 division isnt even known in all 50 states. There is no advertising from them besides TeamLiquid. Not enough people know about it to care or survive. And most of all, alot of bad teams dont want to pay $9 out of their pocket to lose vs EG, coL, Gosu etc..
Season 1 had a lot of bugs that have been worked out, I appreciate all the teams that have had patience and by sticking it out. Most of the bugs have been fixed and for the most part and its been running smoothly.
9$ is a very cheap price for an entry fee to an organized league sport that lasts 3 months. To play against top teams, although you might not win, can be a fun and learning experience. Depending on how you want to look at it. With each season there is always room for improvement and we are doing just that.
On October 12 2011 06:00 dbizzle wrote: I never called every other league a "backyard" or talk about the way you run your league. I apologized to your manager and all the other team managers via msging and on the phone about the delays and hiccups that happened in ESEA. You have your right to say whatever you want to say and voice your opinions on the league.
I am learning how to run a better league with each season and things will be improved. The way we run things are a little different, yea the coverage was very little, but thats ok. In due time things will get rolling and you will see a lot more coverage with ESEA sc2.
This is my first league I have ever ran and I've made some mistakes and learning new things every week. I am grateful that ESEA is branching off into sc2 and looking forward to season 3.
Name calling is just immature and unprofessional, I am here to let you guys know of a new season and to get your feedback. If you're that type of person who would rather bitch and yell and pull out your hair because something went wrong instead of calmly assessing the situation, thats cool man. Just do it in respect, other wise you wont get any respect thrown back at you.
I don't think you quite get what needs to be done yet.
Right now your publicity and marketing are so far behind the schedule its unacceptable to even consider asking for league entry fees or awarding prizes. Heck you even had entrants who entered thinking was 1v1 because of how poorly presented the league is. You're just lucky that it has received so little coverage.
I don't see InControl here asking for a CW finals REMATCH or anything like that at all. The fact he has to make it public that your league just 'ran' with a walkover finals without any clear justification. Given there was absolutely no effect of whether the finals was held the same day (which team EG intended to honor), or a day after makes a pretty clear case that the management decision was absolute rubbish. Especially if higher-ups make a decision saying they 'can't wait', it just shows how little respect ESEA has for the players and teams of the league. Doesn't matter that they pitch money to fly people to finals, the mere fact they think it's okay to announce a w/o knowing there was internet outage. Hell it's better PR salvage to withdraw the w/o decision than to just pretend to be ignorant about the outage.
There is a very clear process of actions that need to be done to rectify this. You cannot make a claim that the league is great and well run considering even you yourself admit this is your first league that you have run. It has been made clear on this thread there were many complaints about the ways things happened - no publicity, no admins, no penalties until finals, no consideration for teams who FOLLOWED rules.
ESEA needs to release a public apology to teams for the poor management of the league.
Please understand that the sc2 division has had its problems, when I talk about ESEA being a top league. I'm referring to the years of 1.6 and source seasons that have been running with out a hitch. SC2 is an infant compared to the other games in ESEA, things will mess up and go wrong. We are fixing problems when they appear as fast as we can. ESEA is in it for the long run, and we will prove it to the community.
Rofl at everyone attacking incontrol because he's dead fucking on, TL at it's finest.
Comparing NASL problems to ESEA problems is fucking laughable, ESEA was horribly run. I spent over $100 out of my OWN pocket to let my team get some good games vs awesome teams. We ended up getting FF wins for over 50% of our matches, because of the bad scheduling system. After 9 or so weeks me team decided to give it up because giving up 2 nights was making it hard to schedule for other leagues.
Don't get me started on the reporting system, reporting wins was a fucking hassle. The rules were incomplete and there were 2 sets of SC2 rules, and 2 different map pools posted on the website for more then 9 weeks. The prize money was never updated on 1 of the rules that was posted. The site is horrible configured for SC2 and it hasn't been improved in 2 seasons.
Want to look up the score for a clan war? You had to literally click each match in a drop down match and try and figure it out there, no battle report, nothing.
With such a big prize pool you should NEVER give a team a walk over into the finals. It's fucking stupid and a terrible decision. And since this organization is so "well run" with other games, they should have the common sense not to schedule a finals where any team that was sponsored players that will be playing at events like MLG or IPL.
Don't attack incontrol with these ad homin attack's when you have no idea how it went down. He has every right to complain. Any other team leagues give teams a week off for MLG and IPL, and it's no excuse ESEA didn't think about it. When teams pay 9 fucking dollars a player, you would think this would be a little bit more well run?
On October 12 2011 06:00 dbizzle wrote: I never called every other league a "backyard" or talk about the way you run your league. I apologized to your manager and all the other team managers via msging and on the phone about the delays and hiccups that happened in ESEA. You have your right to say whatever you want to say and voice your opinions on the league.
I am learning how to run a better league with each season and things will be improved. The way we run things are a little different, yea the coverage was very little, but thats ok. In due time things will get rolling and you will see a lot more coverage with ESEA sc2.
This is my first league I have ever ran and I've made some mistakes and learning new things every week. I am grateful that ESEA is branching off into sc2 and looking forward to season 3.
Name calling is just immature and unprofessional, I am here to let you guys know of a new season and to get your feedback. If you're that type of person who would rather bitch and yell and pull out your hair because something went wrong instead of calmly assessing the situation, thats cool man. Just do it in respect, other wise you wont get any respect thrown back at you.
I don't think you quite get what needs to be done yet.
Right now your publicity and marketing are so far behind the schedule its unacceptable to even consider asking for league entry fees or awarding prizes. Heck you even had entrants who entered thinking was 1v1 because of how poorly presented the league is. You're just lucky that it has received so little coverage.
I don't see InControl here asking for a CW finals REMATCH or anything like that at all. The fact he has to make it public that your league just 'ran' with a walkover finals without any clear justification. Given there was absolutely no effect of whether the finals was held the same day (which team EG intended to honor), or a day after makes a pretty clear case that the management decision was absolute rubbish. Especially if higher-ups make a decision saying they 'can't wait', it just shows how little respect ESEA has for the players and teams of the league. Doesn't matter that they pitch money to fly people to finals, the mere fact they think it's okay to announce a w/o knowing there was internet outage. Hell it's better PR salvage to withdraw the w/o decision than to just pretend to be ignorant about the outage.
There is a very clear process of actions that need to be done to rectify this. You cannot make a claim that the league is great and well run considering even you yourself admit this is your first league that you have run. It has been made clear on this thread there were many complaints about the ways things happened - no publicity, no admins, no penalties until finals, no consideration for teams who FOLLOWED rules.
ESEA needs to release a public apology to teams for the poor management of the league.
Please understand that the sc2 division has had its problems, when I talk about ESEA being a top league. I'm referring to the years of 1.6 and source seasons that have been running with out a hitch. SC2 is an infant compared to the other games in ESEA, things will mess up and go wrong. We are fixing problems when they appear as fast as we can. ESEA is in it for the long run, and we will prove it to the community.
I appreciate that you are trying to make it work better.
However refusing to release a public apology (as implied in your reply) just shows everyone how far this league is willing to go in terms of professionalism, which unfortunately isn't very far.
There is a difference between working towards something and refusing to admit that there were problems in the past. Look at all the other big tournaments. Do you think they publicly apologise because they like to? I don't think so. It's part of being a legitimate league.
On October 12 2011 06:00 dbizzle wrote: I never called every other league a "backyard" or talk about the way you run your league. I apologized to your manager and all the other team managers via msging and on the phone about the delays and hiccups that happened in ESEA. You have your right to say whatever you want to say and voice your opinions on the league.
I am learning how to run a better league with each season and things will be improved. The way we run things are a little different, yea the coverage was very little, but thats ok. In due time things will get rolling and you will see a lot more coverage with ESEA sc2.
This is my first league I have ever ran and I've made some mistakes and learning new things every week. I am grateful that ESEA is branching off into sc2 and looking forward to season 3.
Name calling is just immature and unprofessional, I am here to let you guys know of a new season and to get your feedback. If you're that type of person who would rather bitch and yell and pull out your hair because something went wrong instead of calmly assessing the situation, thats cool man. Just do it in respect, other wise you wont get any respect thrown back at you.
I don't think you quite get what needs to be done yet.
Right now your publicity and marketing are so far behind the schedule its unacceptable to even consider asking for league entry fees or awarding prizes. Heck you even had entrants who entered thinking was 1v1 because of how poorly presented the league is. You're just lucky that it has received so little coverage.
I don't see InControl here asking for a CW finals REMATCH or anything like that at all. The fact he has to make it public that your league just 'ran' with a walkover finals without any clear justification. Given there was absolutely no effect of whether the finals was held the same day (which team EG intended to honor), or a day after makes a pretty clear case that the management decision was absolute rubbish. Especially if higher-ups make a decision saying they 'can't wait', it just shows how little respect ESEA has for the players and teams of the league. Doesn't matter that they pitch money to fly people to finals, the mere fact they think it's okay to announce a w/o knowing there was internet outage. Hell it's better PR salvage to withdraw the w/o decision than to just pretend to be ignorant about the outage.
There is a very clear process of actions that need to be done to rectify this. You cannot make a claim that the league is great and well run considering even you yourself admit this is your first league that you have run. It has been made clear on this thread there were many complaints about the ways things happened - no publicity, no admins, no penalties until finals, no consideration for teams who FOLLOWED rules.
ESEA needs to release a public apology to teams for the poor management of the league.
Please understand that the sc2 division has had its problems, when I talk about ESEA being a top league. I'm referring to the years of 1.6 and source seasons that have been running with out a hitch. SC2 is an infant compared to the other games in ESEA, things will mess up and go wrong. We are fixing problems when they appear as fast as we can. ESEA is in it for the long run, and we will prove it to the community.
I appreciate that you are trying to make it work better.
However refusing to release a public apology (as implied in your reply) just shows everyone how far this league is willing to go in terms of professionalism, which unfortunately isn't very far.
There is a difference between working towards something and refusing to admit that there were problems in the past. Look at all the other big tournaments. Do you think they publicly apologise because they like to? I don't think so. It's part of being a legitimate league.
I have apologized many times to the public and to the managers, and again I am sorry for how things turned out and how this thread has turned out. I do admit there were problems in the past, I have always tried to be as level headed as I can be. Fixing problems and trying to be successful at a league takes some steps and hard work which can take some time here and there. I'll say that so far season 2, even though it had some problems, were immensely better in terms of things being reported and delays compared to season one.
The biggest complaint that I would have is about the rules, and how they were enforced. Multiple times teams would set a roster, then demand to use other players than the ones established for that specific match. They would claim that the admin said it was okay, that it was allowed in other circumstances, etc. Either remove the roster-setting feature for each match, or actually enforce the rules when it comes to those 4 players playing
On October 12 2011 06:06 iNcontroL wrote: I don't want your respect I want a competent league that doesn't give w/o's in the finals. I want an admin who can admit he was wrong and not continue to go "ESEA is the best!" and then later admit "well this is my first time running a league" No shit? I couldn't tell.. well here is some huge advice GET THE FINALS PLAYED.
Want me to act professional in regards to your league? Then run a professional league. You yourself talked about giving respect and getting it. Well guess what? That sword cuts both ways. I have 0 respect for ESEA thus far. Want my respect? Stop being a shit league that makes up rules around the finals and would rather w/o a team than play the finals.
Ironically the most PR ESEA will get in 2 seasons will be me talking about this on SOTG.
You exaggerate a lot of my words when I'm trying to explain the situations of what and why things happened. I don't want to publicly put down EG and tell everyone that we've had many problems with your team through out both seasons of reporting scores and going weeks and weeks with out turning in any replays, thus delaying the season itself. You want SC2 to be the next big game and to be like korea in terms of money and how much they love it over there. Yet you can't even throw in positive advice with out sounding like an immature brat.
If you want a potential league to succeed (who is willing to throw down thousands of dollars) it takes the community to fuel it. You want to talk bad about esea and how shitty it is on your talk show, go ahead, all you are doing is putting a negative impact in the sc2 community.
You remind me of the people who bashed Championship Gaming Series when they were throwing MILLIONS of dollars for a gaming. Yea the format and things weren't ran right, but it takes time, trial and error sometimes to make something right. If the whole cs and css community showed more support the league could very well be here still today.
I don't care who you are or what team you play for, if you don't show up to a finals when you are suppose to play, you forfeit, go ahead and try it at any tournament. Even other team managers hate dealing with you because your head is so far up your own ass that you think the world is willing to bend over backwards for EG. I barely even know you and I already don't like you. You are a big icon in the starcraft 2 community and you represent yourself and EG terribly with your attitude. ESEA wasn't the best ran league, but at least I have respect for other people and try my best to fix the problems.
I look forward to reading this out loud on SOTG.
You sound like a fantastic ESEA admin! Complaining that I call you names but then turning around and doing exactly that. You want to try and say I am hurting esports because I call you out for being a shit admin? LOL try not being a shit admin dude.
It's obvious at this point you've lost it. Laurent and creig are good people. You are a horrible admin who is getting pissy because you can't admit when you are wrong and would rather start calling me names.
Also comparing my complaints about ESEA to people complaining about CGS is laughable. CGS fucked up.. not people complaining about them. Fuck you for even suggesting otherwise. And here you go again, fucking up another league and then blaming the people who are upset about it
ESEA is obviously a great league, giving a walkover in the finals, LOL
edit: i'd just like to add that it makes me so, so happy to see ESEA screw the pooch like this, after years of trudging through that community just because it was the only way to play competitive cstrike. way to fly your true colors, guys
the worst part is how delusional this clown is... "ESEA is great just ask the other teams!"
We then have players/managers from what, 6 teams so far? Come into this thread and complain about how bad it has been... STOP blaming us and start owing up to your short-comings. NO this wasn't well ran, NO this isn't a good league thus far and NO you are not good at your job as far as we are concerned.
W/o finals is the worst offense but now you are running your mouth and shit talking a community you JUST entered. How does any of that make sense?
On October 12 2011 06:48 nGBeast wrote: Rofl at everyone attacking incontrol because he's dead fucking on, TL at it's finest.
Comparing NASL problems to ESEA problems is fucking laughable, ESEA was horribly run. I spent over $100 out of my OWN pocket to let my team get some good games vs awesome teams. We ended up getting FF wins for over 50% of our matches, because of the bad scheduling system. After 9 or so weeks me team decided to give it up because giving up 2 nights was making it hard to schedule for other leagues.
Don't get me started on the reporting system, reporting wins was a fucking hassle. The rules were incomplete and there were 2 sets of SC2 rules, and 2 different map pools posted on the website for more then 9 weeks. The prize money was never updated on 1 of the rules that was posted. The site is horrible configured for SC2 and it hasn't been improved in 2 seasons.
Want to look up the score for a clan war? You had to literally click each match in a drop down match and try and figure it out there, no battle report, nothing.
With such a big prize pool you should NEVER give a team a walk over into the finals. It's fucking stupid and a terrible decision. And since this organization is so "well run" with other games, they should have the common sense not to schedule a finals where any team that was sponsored players that will be playing at events like MLG or IPL.
Don't attack incontrol with these ad homin attack's when you have no idea how it went down. He has every right to complain. Any other team leagues give teams a week off for MLG and IPL, and it's no excuse ESEA didn't think about it. When teams pay 9 fucking dollars a player, you would think this would be a little bit more well run?
ESEA likes to throw it out there and fix it when problems arise, yea, season 1 had a lot of problems and I apologize for that. The starcraft 2 teams weren't used to the systems so it caused a lot of forfeit wins and losses. Season 2 way overall better with a lot of room for improvement as well. Season 3 should be even better. A walk over finals is terrible and its a decision that I did not like making. But EG could not show up, thus forfeit. That's why ESEA encourages more people on your roster just in case something happens to any internet or computer problem.
correction: EG could show up on every day but the one magical day where dabears decided the league ends (not previously posted/mentioned etc). EG could literally play any day but that one because of an act of god.
ESEA then goes on to say "get more players" in response to "can we paly the finals?"
Don't worry Incontrol this is just how ESEA works. I used to play esea for counter strike for years until about a year ago. Lpkane is a dick to his customers and I remember that their stat systems would be down for weeks even though that is pretty much what their users paid monthly for. There were no updates from esea when things were going wrong/not working even though users demanded it, their admins don't give a shit and would ban people for stupid/wrong reasons, yet wouldn't ban blatant hackers because their client didn't detect it. They might have improved since after I left but they were definitely not professional.
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
Nah it was horrible management by ESEA.
We waited several weeks for the other teams to catch up in schedule. It was delayed over and over again and finally ESEA steps in and wants to put their foot down on a schedule that is exactly at the same time as IPL. The internet goes down at IPL and we cannot play but ESEA decides it is best to just award a w/o in the grand finals of their tourney.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals? Nobody wants to see a w/o.. people are here to see games. But hey, if you guys want to just shuffle money our direction and continue to run a clan league that nobody is watching/caring about then that is fine. If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
Hey Incontrol I know the world revolves around you and such, but ESEA is the premier clan league in North America. It turns out they don't only do Starcraft 2 and Starcraft 2 isn't the only game being played, but I'm glad awarding the other team a w/o instantly makes them second class. Everybody doesn't bend over backwards to get fucked by EG? Well then fuck them.
It's posts like this that garner you so many haters. The ESEA admin makes a non inflammatory post that blames nobody, and you come back and talk a load of shit. If somebody said something like this about NASL you would have a half hour sob session on SoTG before making a public scene about how everybody attacks you.
Basically, nobody wants to hear your hypocritical shit. Thanks.
iNcontrol is holding people accountable. Stop throwing a tantrum and making things personal.
On October 12 2011 07:29 TomSlick wrote: im pretty sure ESEA is about the only event EG can actually win so i completely understand incontrols rage here.
On October 12 2011 07:07 iNcontroL wrote: the worst part is how delusional this clown is... "ESEA is great just ask the other teams!"
We then have players/managers from what, 6 teams so far? Come into this thread and complain about how bad it has been... STOP blaming us and start owing up to your short-comings. NO this wasn't well ran, NO this isn't a good league thus far and NO you are not good at your job as far as we are concerned.
W/o finals is the worst offense but now you are running your mouth and shit talking a community you JUST entered. How does any of that make sense?
I am not blaming anyone, or talking shit to the sc2 community... My whole argument is with you, not anyone else. I've been responding to people explaining what went wrong and how we can fix it. You on the other hand turn my words around and mock me on whatever I say.
I've admitted that I've made mistakes and things could have been ran better many many times. I don't even know why I'm still responding to you. It's obvious that all you care about is bashing me and ESEA. I've addressed why the finals were a walk over in so many posts, but yet you keep bringing it up in every post.
I want to run a better and more enjoyable league that people can play. If you want to talk about how I run the league or how I admin, then msg me or talk to me at mlg orlando. It's ok to be angry at how things turned up, but you are taking this way to far. Be more respectful if you want anyone to take you seriously.
Take your own advice: be more respectful if you want anyone to take you seriously.
On October 12 2011 07:28 Torte de Lini wrote: If you need help running the league, let me know, I'm willing to volunteer to help make it run more smoothly.
I believe ESEA is all paid staff positions so they don't take volunteers.
On October 12 2011 07:07 iNcontroL wrote: the worst part is how delusional this clown is... "ESEA is great just ask the other teams!"
We then have players/managers from what, 6 teams so far? Come into this thread and complain about how bad it has been... STOP blaming us and start owing up to your short-comings. NO this wasn't well ran, NO this isn't a good league thus far and NO you are not good at your job as far as we are concerned.
W/o finals is the worst offense but now you are running your mouth and shit talking a community you JUST entered. How does any of that make sense?
I am not blaming anyone, or talking shit to the sc2 community... My whole argument is with you, not anyone else. I've been responding to people explaining what went wrong and how we can fix it. You on the other hand turn my words around and mock me on whatever I say.
I've admitted that I've made mistakes and things could have been ran better many many times. I don't even know why I'm still responding to you. It's obvious that all you care about is bashing me and ESEA. I've addressed why the finals were a walk over in so many posts, but yet you keep bringing it up in every post.
I want to run a better and more enjoyable league that people can play. If you want to talk about how I run the league or how I admin, then msg me or talk to me at mlg orlando. It's ok to be angry at how things turned up, but you are taking this way to far. Be more respectful if you want anyone to take you seriously.
Once again I see no proof you've ever apologised.
Yes you have apologized for the outcome of the finals. Have you ever considered whether it was fair or the right decision to make? It's the wrong decision.
Let's see, internet goes out in a state. Unacceptable reason to not be in a final. Check. So if for instance the power or internet went down in the eg house and all their team members were there, and eg couldn't send anyone, its disgustingly disrespectful. Right?
You make promises about making things better then blame THE TEAMS for failing to use your system for the delays. You make promises then antagonise players for providing absolutely acceptable reasons to not be at the scheduled final. Very sincere of you as an admin of a league.
Teams should not give money to this league so long as its run by ego tripping admins like dabear
edit: if he's a paid employee I believe it's time to file a complaint to his boss about whether he should even be hired by esea. He clearly isn't fulfilling his responsibilities as admin, why should he be paid to do it?
On October 12 2011 07:28 Torte de Lini wrote: If you need help running the league, let me know, I'm willing to volunteer to help make it run more smoothly.
I believe ESEA is all paid staff positions so they don't take volunteers.
Reading this thread makes me kinda sad because I have played in there CS league for basically ever season and I can never remember any other division getting this much heat. Hopefully they improve but I will say this: There should NEVER be a walkover in a finals of an event (Barring EXTREMEcircumstances)
The only complaint I have ever had with ESEA is honestly that once they make a decision (not matter how crazy or bad the community things it is) they DO NOT admit they were wrong about it and they do not chance there mind about it.
Honestly anyone who has based ESEA other divisions doesn't know what they are talking about IMO. Hopefully this season will be on the same quality level as its other divisions.
On October 12 2011 07:28 Torte de Lini wrote: If you need help running the league, let me know, I'm willing to volunteer to help make it run more smoothly.
It seems like this is something ESEA needs to do. It honestly seems like the SC2 Division is a "grass roots" thing compared to the other division. Where a few people wanted to run it and got the ok from kane/torbull. I don't know how many admins there SC2 division has but I think they need more.
ESEA has been at it longer than any other SC2 Team League that I know of and I applaud them for their efforts. Keep up the good work. Hate to see this... only hurts NA Team Leagues.
I've been an active member of TL for about 7 months and an active member of ESEA for about 2 years and I'll give my 2 cents on what the successes and failures of ESEA league is.
ESEA has an EXTREMELY well managed CS:S, CS:1.6 and TF2 leagues. Anybody that has ever partook in the league can agree with me when I say that it is the most well organized, well-run and most trusted league in all of NA (even though there aren't that many anymore). ESEA has not "failed" at everything it has done, because it's management and resources for 1.6, Source and TF2 is well beyond what is expected of an average league (match servers, practice scrim servers, mumble + support for teams, etc).
However, when it comes to the SC2 league, the biggest fallacy is that 1: there are not enough admins to manage the individual needs of every single team (the biggest problem last season - I'll get back to that later), and that 2: the playing times of teams vs teams is not prioritized enough vs the length of the season, especially considering the hefty sum of $5000 being given out towards the teams (will explain what this means later)
What ESEA needs to do is 1: hire MORE knowledgable admins for the SC2 leagues, prefferably around 3-5 more with people in different timezones, so that there will be active admins on to meet the needs of the team members and managers whenever needed. Although da_bears tries his best to do what he can, I don't believe that he has the needed support to maintain a SC2 league successfully, as a league's success is highly dependent on the amount of support they get from league administrators regarding issues that they might have with the leagues.
ESEA has the infrastructure to host multiple highly successful RTS games including LANs, and there will no doubt be the necessary infrastructure for a successful SC2 league. However, I do disagree with the way that the EG problem was handled. A possible fix would be to separate the SC2 league schedules with the RTS game schedules, because to my knowledge the RTS game season is scheduled for maximum server efficiency, which is a non-issue for SC2. This will allow for larger flexibility for teams to negotiate times to play, which in the world of regular SC2 lans messing up people's schedules, would be an important aspect of running a successful league.
On October 12 2011 07:28 Torte de Lini wrote: If you need help running the league, let me know, I'm willing to volunteer to help make it run more smoothly.
I believe ESEA is all paid staff positions so they don't take volunteers.
I don't mind being an exception :B
In my experience with ESEA they only hire long-time contributing members of the ESEA community to be admins for anything and probably won't hire anyone from TL unless you fit that criteria.
On October 12 2011 06:06 iNcontroL wrote: I don't want your respect I want a competent league that doesn't give w/o's in the finals. I want an admin who can admit he was wrong and not continue to go "ESEA is the best!" and then later admit "well this is my first time running a league" No shit? I couldn't tell.. well here is some huge advice GET THE FINALS PLAYED.
Want me to act professional in regards to your league? Then run a professional league. You yourself talked about giving respect and getting it. Well guess what? That sword cuts both ways. I have 0 respect for ESEA thus far. Want my respect? Stop being a shit league that makes up rules around the finals and would rather w/o a team than play the finals.
Ironically the most PR ESEA will get in 2 seasons will be me talking about this on SOTG.
You exaggerate a lot of my words when I'm trying to explain the situations of what and why things happened. I don't want to publicly put down EG and tell everyone that we've had many problems with your team through out both seasons of reporting scores and going weeks and weeks with out turning in any replays, thus delaying the season itself. You want SC2 to be the next big game and to be like korea in terms of money and how much they love it over there. Yet you can't even throw in positive advice with out sounding like an immature brat.
If you want a potential league to succeed (who is willing to throw down thousands of dollars) it takes the community to fuel it. You want to talk bad about esea and how shitty it is on your talk show, go ahead, all you are doing is putting a negative impact in the sc2 community.
You remind me of the people who bashed Championship Gaming Series when they were throwing MILLIONS of dollars for a gaming. Yea the format and things weren't ran right, but it takes time, trial and error sometimes to make something right. If the whole cs and css community showed more support the league could very well be here still today.
I don't care who you are or what team you play for, if you don't show up to a finals when you are suppose to play, you forfeit, go ahead and try it at any tournament. Even other team managers hate dealing with you because your head is so far up your own ass that you think the world is willing to bend over backwards for EG. I barely even know you and I already don't like you. You are a big icon in the starcraft 2 community and you represent yourself and EG terribly with your attitude. ESEA wasn't the best ran league, but at least I have respect for other people and try my best to fix the problems.
I look forward to reading this out loud on SOTG.
You sound like a fantastic ESEA admin! Complaining that I call you names but then turning around and doing exactly that. You want to try and say I am hurting esports because I call you out for being a shit admin? LOL try not being a shit admin dude.
It's obvious at this point you've lost it. Laurent and creig are good people. You are a horrible admin who is getting pissy because you can't admit when you are wrong and would rather start calling me names.
Also comparing my complaints about ESEA to people complaining about CGS is laughable. CGS fucked up.. not people complaining about them. Fuck you for even suggesting otherwise. And here you go again, fucking up another league and then blaming the people who are upset about it
You can't blame him for "ruining" the league. The time constraints (based on the RTS-game seasons) and his lack of support are the biggest issues with the league. He does not have all of the IPL management staff to help him run the league, or all of the GSL staff, or all of the NASL staff, and such.
From what i have read about the topics discussed, I believe that InControl is right, ESEA was a poorly ran tournament, and yes he has admitted that it was or sugarcoatedly said so, but the fact that your not answering the question, but rather focusing on how you are terrible as an admin is beyond the point. I as well, was part of Season 2 and in the management field, Not once did we have a week without any trouble with this league, be it reporting results, scheduling or rules, Weeks after weeks we get contacted by a team who is also as clueless as us into when it will be played. Those parts are understandable, and we can brush it off as poor management and bad season of ESEA, but being in "professional" leagues for years with CS and CSS should have given you somewhat of an experience dealing with the league, Having a Walk Over Final is by no means improving yourself from the last season, and is no way a "professional" league, who knows how to run things would go about it, I feel for InControl with him saying they were waiting and waiting for their next round because i find my team doing the same thing in some weeks, and how you are unforgiving for somebody who has been waiting for your league to get their things in order for such a long time to not show the decency to respect them into playing a finals. I have been in the management side of E-sports for a very very long time, and I know for sure that 1 day would not make the world stop and end. The fact that your just running around in circles and giving up excuses instead of addressing the issue, is in my opinion very unprofessional.
Whats done is done, yes. EG cannot replay the finals, yes. But turning a blind eye to criticism about a poorly ran league is not what the community needs. Its time to suck it up, own up to your mistakes and admit to decisions you have made and live with it, and move on. Clearly, you as an admin made that decision of a walk over final, even though you have said that is the last thing you wanted. Scapegoating saying that this is your first league only makes a shame of you and ESEA,
If you want to be successful and respected as a league, Grow some balls and own up to your mistakes instead of throwing things to cover it up and talking about how you are new at this and past successes of the league.
I am actually excited to see the next season, seeing how you respond to such poorly ran 2 seasons and how ESEA will fix all their mistakes and issues and how it will be from there.
On October 12 2011 07:17 Kira__ wrote: I don't care who's right or wrong here; it's just sad to see a league admin and a representative for EG arguing in this way on public forums
ESPORTS hurting
Stop throwing out that fucking term, in the grand scheme of things this is NOT hurting esports.
On October 12 2011 07:28 Torte de Lini wrote: If you need help running the league, let me know, I'm willing to volunteer to help make it run more smoothly.
I believe ESEA is all paid staff positions so they don't take volunteers.
I don't mind being an exception :B
In my experience with ESEA they only hire long-time contributing members of the ESEA community to be admins for anything and probably won't hire anyone from TL unless you fit that criteria.
His point is just that its pretty evident they need some help and it isn't hard nor expensive to find, especially in the starcraft community.
If help is what solves the previous problems then for gods sake these problems shouldn't be happening at all.
I'm going to give you some good general advice, and I'm not someone who doesn't have experience in this kind of stuff, I've run team leagues since WC3 and since the start of SC2. I ran SCL for 2 season's and we just started a new season under SCL:NA, so take this as someone who's had experience doing this.
First off, you should be a lot more lenient with teams, especially teams that are sponsored and have players that are well known in the community. Obviously, within a allowable limit but not even rescheduling the finals for a different week that doesn't conflict with major North American tournaments (IPL,MLG). You have no excuse but lack of experience by giving a walk over to a team in the playoffs. Teams that are sponsored have bigger obligations (and contractual) to go to LAN events and compete for money, or exposure to sponsors.
Teams payed $9 per player, (many teams I know out of their own pockets) because organized clan wars like this are hard to come by, and they slaved through so many weeks (I forgot the actual number) to be FFed in the playoffs. You can't blame Incontrol's response because he is correct, and his criticism is was needed. Why are teams going to spend so much money to a organization that has continually lied and been run poorly. You also said teams should have more players to avoid this, well teams like EG have contracts, and they can't sign more people (or shouldn't have to) to cater to your request.
Secondly, you claimed season 2 that the exposure for the teams playing in season 2 would get more coverage, matches casted, and djWheat would cast matches. I can't think of a single match getting casted or anyone the good matches of the week getting highlighted, other then the actual teams posting here on TL about the coming match. Your saying your inexperienced, yet I've seen no job posting, or recruiting for help. If your understaffed you should be looking to add more people.
You have a 5000 prize pool ( I forget what last seasons was) yet your advertising last season was terrible. Why would ESEA support a huge prize yet plan no coverage for the league? It seems like a poor business decision to me. You don't even have casters for matches, yet the league schedule is preset with showing like the first 6 or 8 matches weeks ahead time.
Lastly, your site is not formatted for a SC2 league. Why not reduce the prize pool by $1000 and get a website to fit SC2. You need to rework the battle reports that show a correct format for the league. The rosters need to be more user friendly, and the report scores needs to be redone completely because it is set up awfully. If you'd like some examples of some I have tons.
All in all you guys need to get this stuff straightened out. You need to treat teams better, and be more lenient. You also need to cater to teams that are sponsored and that have many followers/high exposure. These teams will make or break you, because people don't want to watch mid masters players, they want to watch EG vs TL because the pro scene is where the money is.
Also a public shouting match on TL or anywhere is a big no-no, stick to PMs, let them get angry and look bad (not saying Incontrol was wrong/looking bad, just you guys started getting into personal attacks). It's bad exposure for you and only creates more negativity.
I've been up to date looking over each season and always watching how each team was doing each week. Obviously the w/o in the finals is bad, but how it all began was the delay in the first place. Toward the end of the actual season I was seeing teams not complete their matches to almost a full week after the season was over. Also the brackets for the finals took forever, I think week one taking maybe two weeks and another two on the second. Just fix the early problems and bad things won't happen.
It sucks to see so much crap in a thread, both from ESEA and from the teams. I kinda have to agree with what has been said so far though. It's near impossible to follow the league, it's hard to know how your favorite teams are doing or when they are playing, because the schedule is out of date, scores may or may not get posted, the site itself is hard to navigate. I'm not surprised by any of what was said iNcontroL, because in my experience as a viewer who enjoys team leagues, it's par for the course. I've only very rarely seen threads about ESEA games on TL. To me based on what I see regarding coverage, rules, etc - the backyard league is ESEA and the main team leagues are EGMCS and GCPL.
On October 12 2011 10:17 matus2442 wrote: I had no idea what ESEA was until this. I guess I didn't miss anything.
Same, sounds a pretty joke league lol.
W/o finals? really?
ESEA pays out over $80,000 in prize money each season (usually 2 seasons per year) in their other games (CS 1.6 , CS:S, and TF2). They're definitely not a joke league. They obviously are still learning when it comes to SC2 though. I guarantee you they will only get much much better though. Including LAN playoffs for the SC2 teams with very good payouts in the future.
I've been playing CS 1.6 on ESEA for the past 6 years. Things have only gotten much better over the years... Just give them time guys. I guarantee you guys won't be disappointed in the future.
ESEA seems poorly ran. I had no idea this league went on until one of our editors for our e-sports website showed us the thread.
iNcontroL is 100% right on all his points. I was at IPL3, literally 1 day of no internet and you couldn't reschedule it for say Monday? You delayed EG's games for 2 weeks allowing others to catch up. But this one day you couldn't delay it? That just shows you couldn't keep a consistent schedule down until you realized "oh crap we need to speed things along." and enforced a arbitrary deadline for the finals. And I find it funny that you tell EG to have backup players. Yeah you want them to take your league serious, but you weren't taking your league serious until the last second. It was your fault your league failed, not EG. Also no streaming of the matches? That's like...a necessity in e-Sports.
I do content for a e-sports website, and I honestly had no clue you even had a league until now. Good job marketing yourselves to the community.
These sort of blunders by leagues help me compile a list of what sort of things are needed to be figured out well before I (hopefully) can start doing my own league/online tournaments.
Thanks ESEA, you're failure at running your "business" will help me run my business in the future.
On October 12 2011 11:04 MrNomad wrote: ESEA seems poorly ran. I had no idea this league went on until one of our editors for our e-sports website showed us the thread.
iNcontroL is 100% right on all his points. I was at IPL3, literally 1 day of no internet and you couldn't reschedule it for say Monday? You delayed EG's games for 2 weeks allowing others to catch up. But this one day you couldn't delay it? That just shows you couldn't keep a consistent schedule down until you realized "oh crap we need to speed things along." and enforced a arbitrary deadline for the finals. And I find it funny that you tell EG to have backup players. Yeah you want them to take your league serious, but you weren't taking your league serious until the last second. It was your fault your league failed, not EG. Also no streaming of the matches? That's like...a necessity in e-Sports.
I do content for a e-sports website, and I honestly had no clue you even had a league until now. Good job marketing yourselves to the community.
These sort of blunders by leagues help me compile a list of what sort of things are needed to be figured out well before I (hopefully) can start doing my own league/online tournaments.
Thanks ESEA, you're failure at running your "business" will help me run my business in the future.
=D
.... They have over 14,000 premium subscribers. That's $6.95/month from each one. I wouldn't call that a "failure".
On October 12 2011 11:04 MrNomad wrote: ESEA seems poorly ran. I had no idea this league went on until one of our editors for our e-sports website showed us the thread.
iNcontroL is 100% right on all his points. I was at IPL3, literally 1 day of no internet and you couldn't reschedule it for say Monday? You delayed EG's games for 2 weeks allowing others to catch up. But this one day you couldn't delay it? That just shows you couldn't keep a consistent schedule down until you realized "oh crap we need to speed things along." and enforced a arbitrary deadline for the finals. And I find it funny that you tell EG to have backup players. Yeah you want them to take your league serious, but you weren't taking your league serious until the last second. It was your fault your league failed, not EG. Also no streaming of the matches? That's like...a necessity in e-Sports.
I do content for a e-sports website, and I honestly had no clue you even had a league until now. Good job marketing yourselves to the community.
These sort of blunders by leagues help me compile a list of what sort of things are needed to be figured out well before I (hopefully) can start doing my own league/online tournaments.
Thanks ESEA, you're failure at running your "business" will help me run my business in the future.
=D
.... They have over 14,000 premium subscribers. That's $6.95/month from each one. I wouldn't call that a "failure".
Having 14,000 premium subscribers and yet give this kind of crappy treatment for their own competition? Sounds like a major failure to me.
walk over finals is extremely stupid, and should never be done unless extreme circumstances, like if the team dies, or wutever
i just dont think it looks good for the league, even if all the real facts aren't out there, the bottom line is and what everyone is going to read is that a premier team lost a finals cuz of a walkover, kinda stinks to me
ESEA has kept the FPS scene alive in America for quite some time.I've been apart of esea pretty much since day 1 and its kept counter-strike going through its more dire times. I personally hope every player gives the league a chance because they do put a lot of time / energy into running the league.
I tend to disagree with iNcontroL on a lot of things (for example, he apparently believes in creationism ) but having read the posts from both sides, it does sound like the ESEA admins were in the wrong here.
On October 12 2011 05:48 iNcontroL wrote: Let me subjectively say for the reasons above your league is a failure.
I think you mean 'objectively'. A league which ends in a walkover is objectively a failure.
I was a league admin for ESEA from S2 - S5, and I have to say it is quite poorly run IMO. Everything iNcontrol has been talking about is completely valid, and the powers that be at ESEA are way to stubborn to ever admit that their rigid system can be severely flawed. The TF2 community has had to get accustomed to this because we don't have any alternatives, but the SC2 community is much better off without ESEA. Also da_bears (dbizzle) is quite possible the most incompetent admin I've ever dealt with.
This thread makes ESPORTS weep. Why is this conversation happening in this way, in this forum and in a thread that is not about season 9?
As a mostly neutral party, the result of having read this is that my opinion of both parties is much lower. I'm not particularly interested in supporting either sides interests anymore and would prefer they had worked this out behind the scenes and come to terms that suit both. Why isn't EG's management handling this type of grievance? Another high profile progamer was dead on when he said that gamers should focus on being better at SC2 and let their management and leadership speak for them on these types of matters.
On October 12 2011 11:51 escher wrote: I tend to disagree with iNcontroL on a lot of things (for example, he apparently believes in creationism
say what? that's embarrassing.
I agree that a w/o finals is a pretty retarded decision. Every accommodation should be made so that your league final gets played. I'm also laughing hysterically at incontrol arguing the logic of decisions made by a league when he (NASL) and EG (EGMC) have been affiliated with tournaments/leagues that have had some of dumbest decisions known to man and the end result was usually, 'it's our league we will run it how we see fit.' Are people's memories really that short?
incontrol being a raging hypocrite when it's not really necessary, shocker.
On October 12 2011 11:51 escher wrote: I tend to disagree with iNcontroL on a lot of things (for example, he apparently believes in creationism
say what? that's embarrassing.
I agree that a w/o finals is a pretty retarded decision. Every accommodation should be made so that your league final gets played. I'm also laughing hysterically at incontrol arguing the logic of decisions made by a league when he (NASL) and EG (EGMC) have been affiliated with tournaments/leagues that have had some of dumbest decisions known to man and the end result was usually, 'it's our league we will run it how we see fit.' Are people's memories really that short?
incontrol being a raging hypocrite when it's not really necessary, shocker.
uh the difference is I am a commentator for both those leagues and not an admin (he is) Also I am not a creationist.. you reddit people are really bad at reading.
On October 12 2011 11:51 escher wrote: I tend to disagree with iNcontroL on a lot of things (for example, he apparently believes in creationism
say what? that's embarrassing.
I agree that a w/o finals is a pretty retarded decision. Every accommodation should be made so that your league final gets played. I'm also laughing hysterically at incontrol arguing the logic of decisions made by a league when he (NASL) and EG (EGMC) have been affiliated with tournaments/leagues that have had some of dumbest decisions known to man and the end result was usually, 'it's our league we will run it how we see fit.' Are people's memories really that short?
incontrol being a raging hypocrite when it's not really necessary, shocker.
uh the difference is I am a commentator for both those leagues and not an admin (he is) Also I am not a creationist.. you reddit people are really bad at reading.
I'm not a redditor.
I understand there is a difference between being a commentator and an admin. I was more referring to such moments like your tireless defense of EG's stance in the EGMC when Liquid was trying to argue over the playability of the servers. EG's stance was pretty silly but it basically came down to, 'this is how we want to run our league' and that was that, liquid pulled out.
That is just one of many examples one could illustrate where this whole situation is highly ironic.
The greatest of all though may just be you bashing into this relatively unknown tournament admin calling him a SHIT admin etc. etc., when he made a decision in the best interest of his league (or so he thought). I don't think it was a good decision but how is you laying into him calling him shitty at his profession over a poor decision any different then when you sob to the community about calling you a shitty player because you never win anything/perform well? Maybe I'm delusional but I think that's really silly. It's ok for you to bash this guy for being a 'shitty' admin but the community needs to be more positive towards your 'shitty' play? Weird.
This isn't simply a bash post either, I really enjoy you on SOTG, you can be goddamn hilarious but I think you should take a step back and realize wtf you're doing sometimes. This and countless other examples is why you're so controversial in this community. You're a superstar of SC2 with way more fans than haters, but shit like this thread is a huge reason you have such a loud albeit minority voice against you so often.
On October 12 2011 14:10 crms wrote: You're a superstar of SC2 with way more fans than haters, but shit like this thread is a huge reason you have such a loud albeit minority voice against you so often.
ps glad that you aren't a creationist, phew.
Minority??
I'm pretty a lot of people hate his guts not only for being a shitty player, but for having a shitty attitude as well. I wish he'd tone it down sometimes, not everything revolves around him or his team. By the way, GL at Orlando iNcontrol. Hope you'd put your practice hat on, maybe this time you'll almost win your games.
ESEA is a GOOD LEAGUE. Help them bring it to the level that it is in CS and TF2 and you got yourself another prestigious organization making way into the SC2 scene.
On October 12 2011 11:51 escher wrote: I tend to disagree with iNcontroL on a lot of things (for example, he apparently believes in creationism
say what? that's embarrassing.
I agree that a w/o finals is a pretty retarded decision. Every accommodation should be made so that your league final gets played. I'm also laughing hysterically at incontrol arguing the logic of decisions made by a league when he (NASL) and EG (EGMC) have been affiliated with tournaments/leagues that have had some of dumbest decisions known to man and the end result was usually, 'it's our league we will run it how we see fit.' Are people's memories really that short?
incontrol being a raging hypocrite when it's not really necessary, shocker.
uh the difference is I am a commentator for both those leagues and not an admin (he is) Also I am not a creationist.. you reddit people are really bad at reading.
I'm not a redditor.
I understand there is a difference between being a commentator and an admin. I was more referring to such moments like your tireless defense of EG's stance in the EGMC when Liquid was trying to argue over the playability of the servers. EG's stance was pretty silly but it basically came down to, 'this is how we want to run our league' and that was that, liquid pulled out.
That is just one of many examples one could illustrate where this whole situation is highly ironic.
The greatest of all though may just be you bashing into this relatively unknown tournament admin calling him a SHIT admin etc. etc., when he made a decision in the best interest of his league (or so he thought). I don't think it was a good decision but how is you laying into him calling him shitty at his profession over a poor decision any different then when you sob to the community about calling you a shitty player because you never win anything/perform well? Maybe I'm delusional but I think that's really silly. It's ok for you to bash this guy for being a 'shitty' admin but the community needs to be more positive towards your 'shitty' play? Weird.
This isn't simply a bash post either, I really enjoy you on SOTG, you can be goddamn hilarious but I think you should take a step back and realize wtf you're doing sometimes. This and countless other examples is why you're so controversial in this community. You're a superstar of SC2 with way more fans than haters, but shit like this thread is a huge reason you have such a loud albeit minority voice against you so often.
ps glad that you aren't a creationist, phew.
Still absolutely not the same lol
Believe it or not me one time defending my team's league and saying the ability to make rules for your own league does not exclude me from ever calling out another league for a bad decision. I know, confusing but I am sure you can work your way through that one.
Additionally, I called him a "shit admin" because he made a shit choice. Me getting called names by random people like you and me saying that is a bad thing that happens in this community is not the same as me being mad at a decision _everyone_ agrees was terrible. Again, this may mystify you, but me being upset with random people calling me a bad player does not exclude me from criticizing people in any profession ever. Insane!
Further, your name continuously pops up in threads I am involved in. You need to get a new hobby.. whatever makes you think it is fun to follow me around and try to argue is going to become a rather shallow experience. I have recognized you as the troll you are and will ignore you in the future.
On October 12 2011 14:10 crms wrote: You're a superstar of SC2 with way more fans than haters, but shit like this thread is a huge reason you have such a loud albeit minority voice against you so often.
ps glad that you aren't a creationist, phew.
Minority??
I'm pretty a lot of people hate his guts not only for being a shitty player, but for having a shitty attitude as well. I wish he'd tone it down sometimes, not everything revolves around him or his team. By the way, GL at Orlando iNcontrol. Hope you'd put your practice hat on, maybe this time you'll almost win your games.
ESEA is a GOOD LEAGUE. Help them bring it to the level that it is in CS and TF2 and you got yourself another prestigious organization making way into the SC2 scene.
On October 12 2011 14:10 crms wrote: You're a superstar of SC2 with way more fans than haters, but shit like this thread is a huge reason you have such a loud albeit minority voice against you so often.
ps glad that you aren't a creationist, phew.
Minority??
I'm pretty a lot of people hate his guts not only for being a shitty player, but for having a shitty attitude as well. I wish he'd tone it down sometimes, not everything revolves around him or his team. By the way, GL at Orlando iNcontrol. Hope you'd put your practice hat on, maybe this time you'll almost win your games.
ESEA is a GOOD LEAGUE. Help them bring it to the level that it is in CS and TF2 and you got yourself another prestigious organization making way into the SC2 scene.
He wasn't referring to the number being a "small amount of people" but rather they are outnumbered by another group of people.
you seem to be hot on the trail of your next banned account btw.. keep at it!
You do not need to reply to such crap from ignorant haters who only know how to stick to their own arguments and pay no attention to even what they are quoting.
You know we love you, incontrol. You regularly give us insider news and give your honest feedbacks. Keep at it and disregard these people.
On October 12 2011 15:14 SirScoots wrote: If this happened to Craig when he ran 3D, he would have gone batshit on the league, funny how times change.
lol.... aren't you EG's manager.. I understand the players voicing their opinions in a public forums, but the manager? I thought EG(CS) and ESEA had a better relationship than this.. Professionalism 101 guys.
On October 12 2011 15:14 SirScoots wrote: If this happened to Craig when he ran 3D, he would have gone batshit on the league, funny how times change.
lol.... aren't you EG's manager.. I understand the players voicing their opinions in a public forums, but the manager? I thought EG(CS) and ESEA had a better relationship than this.. Professionalism 101 guys.
I simply pointed out that when he was managing a team, he would have lost his mind had a league tried to pull this on his team. Simple as that.
Erik also called our EGMC "a backyard online league" is that the one that gives out $10k, streams 4 nights a week, and flies casters to a studio to cast the finals. We need more of these shitty backyard online leagues if you ask me.
Overall, I feel iNcontrol has every right to be angered over this situation, but I also feel this type of argument should not be occurring on a public forum.
P.S. I expect some wacky antics on the next SotG iNcontrol!!
On October 12 2011 15:37 Phobbers wrote: Overall, I feel iNcontrol has every right to be angered over this situation, but I also feel this type of argument should not be occurring on a public forum.
P.S. I expect some wacky antics on the next SotG iNcontrol!!
I disagree. In eSports we don't have a way to hold leagues accountable for their actions save for public opinion. I can't write a letter to ESEA and get real change. I don't have a 3rd party to go to and have this issue mediated. I need people to know ESEA went ahead and made a choice that is really shitty and literally everyone agrees.. even dabears knows this. The difference is everyone knows it's shitty and should change but dabears is like "sup we can't do anything now!" and is unapologetic. Even calling me names, disrespecting other leagues and in general being defensive when he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
On October 12 2011 15:37 Phobbers wrote: Overall, I feel iNcontrol has every right to be angered over this situation, but I also feel this type of argument should not be occurring on a public forum.
P.S. I expect some wacky antics on the next SotG iNcontrol!!
I disagree. In eSports we don't have a way to hold leagues accountable for their actions save for public opinion. I can't write a letter to ESEA and get real change. I don't have a 3rd party to go to and have this issue mediated. I need people to know ESEA went ahead and made a choice that is really shitty and literally everyone agrees.. even dabears knows this. The difference is everyone knows it's shitty and should change but dabears is like "sup we can't do anything now!" and is unapologetic. Even calling me names, disrespecting other leagues and in general being defensive when he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
If your aim was to make it well known to the public, then more power to you. I know for a fact after going through this thread I have been informed, prior to this I actually had little knowledge of ESEA, and now I can say I'm somewhat glad I didn't if this is how things get handled. I know I would be servery saddened if a finals I was looking forward to was just a simple walk over.
All in all, I hope this can be a valuable experience for ESEA.
Going to add my 2 cents because ESEA was the worst online league I've ever played or dealt with, ever, and I'm very sad that teams still decided to participate in it despite how terrible it was the first season.
It's absolutely disgusting that this league literally takes money from people and has terrible, incompetent administration and rules. I signed up in Season 1 on the premise that CW times are set in stone... and mind you, the ESEA admins ASKED me to sign up Fnatic and I only signed up because I was told that times are set.
Not the case at all... their online scheduling system is cumbersome as shit. You have to set a time on the website, then the other team can suggest a new team... and if you don't accept/reject it and suggest a new time in 24 hours the time they set becomes the official time. You have to sit and watch the stupid website all day. Especially because some teams are really bm and try to exploit this system to get free wins. They change the times constantly, then you don't pay attention for a day and get walk over'd.
We only played 5 CW's in our first season, and had a ton of outstanding games. I had pm'd admins consistently over the second half of the season, seeking to get games from earlier played because there were so many miscommunication problems and almost all the league games from the first half hadn't been played.
Despite all my efforts, I found out before the playoffs that we'd just gotten forfeit losses for all the games we didn't play.
For a league that YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR, the admins are very hands off -- they make you do all the work. You have to schedule, you have to contact your opponents and deal with problems yourselves. Despite trying to get help, the admins never offered to try to talk to the other teams on my behalf to attempt to reschedule. As far as I know they do little / no work.
The website is not at all intuitive, it's hard to navigate, report results, set schedules, check the draw, etc. The coverage is horrid. I just got a ton of spam email about upcoming matches, but that was it...
Compare that to your "backyard" leagues like GCPL or EGMC. I ran GCPL Season 1 single handedly, and it was the biggest clan league to date, with all the top non Korean teams. I sent emails to teams individually every week, in addition to reminders. I made posts on TL every single day, AND updated the GosuCoaching website, AND made sure that every single game was streamed. And I did this by myself.
EG Masters Cup started at the beginning of 2011 and has become the best clan league, hands down. It's presentation is professional, its prize makes it competitive, and its prestige is growing. That league is run by a small handful of people.
Those two leagues are light years more successful than ESEA, and yet ESEA is some big organization with a big staff list and supposedly funding. There's no excuse for that.
This problem just highlights how incompetent this league is. I'd urge any team to boycott this league until it commits to hiring competent administrators, changing its format to something that works, and apologizing to the community for putting out a shitty product for two consecutive seasons.
ESEA will never change unless people boycott it -- they make $8 per player, per season... that's several thousand dollars of free money they extract from the community without giving anything substantial back to it. ESEA is a leech, and unless the community takes action against it, it will have no incentive to change its practices.
On October 12 2011 15:36 SirScoots wrote: I simply pointed out that when he was managing a team, he would have lost his mind had a league tried to pull this on his team. Simple as that.
Erik also called our EGMC "a backyard online league" is that the one that gives out $10k, streams 4 nights a week, and flies casters to a studio to cast the finals. We need more of these shitty backyard online leagues if you ask me.
I never commented on EGMC or called any league a backyard league. Incontrol really loves to twist words around to make a point.
Can we stop the bullshit please?
Stop diverting the argument to lesser issues like 'name calling' when the heart of the issue is the apparent major problems with how the tournament was run and the backwards logic you've kept skirting around the entire thread.
From an observers standpoint, I completely agree with iNcontrol.
ESEA is basically telling the community they don't give a shit by having a walkover finals. y u no make smart flexible decision ESEA?
And seriously rofl @ $9 entry fee, I mean for CS paying for premium and playing in leagues is worth it because you get access to the PUG system which is probably was probably the best way to play 1.6 back in the day if you wern't scrimming with friends. Of course 1.6/Source are dying now, and with CS:GO having its own 5v5 match making system, ESEA is doomed to die. SC2 was one way they could be mainstream again but they fucked that up pretty hard.
I just love the argument where incontrol says "The internet went down in the whole state." and the respons is "You should have backup players for that" You mean they should have a backup team house with backup players at a remote location, or maybe a team satellite track to be safe. Im sorry but this is ridiculus, as im seeing this this guy should start looking for a real job, cause this unknown leagues going to get out of business fast.
From all the information gleaned from this thread it's pretty obvious iNcontroL is correct, but the question is how much does ESEA even care? There has been no press about the last two seasons, I don't remember a single streamed game from Season 2, the OP looks hastily and sloppily put together, with literally bare minimum information. With no hype, no streams, and a scarcity of information why would they care about all the bad press that's being given out in this thread? It honestly looks like they just mean for this to be a cashgrab for top teams and don't expect any profit from it.
There are better community run cups (ie: not backed by organizations) than this has been from a spectator point of view... considering those actually show us game (and I'm not just talking about finals, I'm talking about any series from this season.. lol).
It is funny but this pissing match has gotten ESEA more attention in SC2 than anything else they have ever done. At least it seems like that to me.
Some constructive criticism for the future. It seems you have some leeway for time matches should be played at. Perhaps make certain you have time for the finals and maybe divide up less time before that? Problems occur. Give yourself breathing room.
Being so restrictive for the finals but having seemingly lots of leeway before it seems like a very odd choice.
Formatting and navigation of the site should be cleaner as well. A LOT of leagues make this mistake though so it is not unusual.
Finally you seem to have pretty poor advertising. I had no idea this existed for a long time. You only need to do a lot of advertising the first one or two times and that early exposure can carry you from there as other people will start to advertise you for free if it is a good product.
On October 12 2011 19:15 jvo wrote: well if this going to be a player vs player (or admin vs player) argument, i have this to say.
da_bears (dbizzle) was way more successful at cs 1.5/1.6 than iNcontroL is at sc2 currently
This is not a stand for argument. Being successful does not mean you are reasonable. If you care to read these little posts, you would realise that his reputation failed him.
On October 12 2011 07:07 iNcontroL wrote: the worst part is how delusional this clown is... "ESEA is great just ask the other teams!"
ESEA IS Great!
I have always had an easy time with the scheduling system and basically everything about ESEA.
Coming from a CS player though, I have no idea how the Sc2 league went.
Edit: Regardless if things didn't go extremely well in the past ESEA has always improved their league. Even when I thought ESEA couldn't get much better (around season 6/7) they have always found ways to improve their CS/CS:S leagues, so I am sure they will do the same with SC2.
It really saddens me that the ESEA administration doesn't realize how freaking horrible it is to award a walkover in your 3-months-long-season finals.
From an American organization with paid admin positions I would expect to see everyone responsible for this getting fired, an immediate apology being released with the league taking full responsibility for the horrible set of events that lead to this walkover and a promise to rectify this by issuing new rules and competent people to manage the league in the future.
Instead the league is blaming one of the participating teams and moving on as if nothing happened.
On October 12 2011 17:03 superbabosheki wrote: ESEA is basically telling the community they don't give a shit by having a walkover finals. y u no make smart flexible decision ESEA?
And seriously rofl @ $9 entry fee, I mean for CS paying for premium and playing in leagues is worth it because you get access to the PUG system which is probably was probably the best way to play 1.6 back in the day if you wern't scrimming with friends. Of course 1.6/Source are dying now, and with CS:GO having its own 5v5 match making system, ESEA is doomed to die. SC2 was one way they could be mainstream again but they fucked that up pretty hard.
Why would you complain about an entry fee to a league? All money from entry fees goes back to the prize pool, and the SC2 league doesn't require you to have premium so you aren't paying for something you aren't using. And to the contrary of what you are saying, ESEA league for CS:S and CS 1.6 has continued to grow every season so while maybe not as popular as they once were, they are not dying.
On October 12 2011 16:35 tok wrote: Stop defending yourself here dbizzle, incontrol has full power and you have none. Post on ESEA if you are a man geoff
Why? So CS players and a CS community can comment on a SC2 tournament? TeamLiquid is THE premier SC2 site. If there's a place for discussion about how a SC2 tournament/league was run, it is here.
On October 12 2011 16:14 Xeris wrote: 1. "ESEA admins ASKED me to sign up Fnatic and I only signed up because I was told that times are set.
Not the case at all... their online scheduling system is cumbersome as shit. You have to set a time on the website, then the other team can suggest a new team... and if you don't accept/reject it and suggest a new time in 24 hours the time they set becomes the official time. You have to sit and watch the stupid website all day. Especially because some teams are really bm and try to exploit this system to get free wins. They change the times constantly, then you don't pay attention for a day and get walk over'd."
2. "For a league that YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR, the admins are very hands off -- they make you do all the work. You have to schedule, you have to contact your opponents and deal with problems yourselves. Despite trying to get help, the admins never offered to try to talk to the other teams on my behalf to attempt to reschedule. As far as I know they do little / no work."
3. "The coverage is horrid. I just got a ton of spam email about upcoming matches, but that was it..."
4. "Those two leagues are light years more successful than ESEA, and yet ESEA is some big organization with a big staff list and supposedly funding. There's no excuse for that.
This problem just highlights how incompetent this league is. I'd urge any team to boycott this league until it commits to hiring competent administrators, changing its format to something that works, and apologizing to the community for putting out a shitty product for two consecutive seasons."
5. "ESEA will never change unless people boycott it -- they make $8 per player, per season... that's several thousand dollars of free money they extract from the community without giving anything substantial back to it. ESEA is a leech, and unless the community takes action against it, it will have no incentive to change its practices."
6. I believe the NA scene deserves better.
1. I have never heard anyone complain about having to schedule their own match against another team on ESEA. That is completely ridiculous. Why is it ESEA's fault if you can't set aside 5 minutes to look at the match comm (where matches are scheduled) and find a time that both team's can play at. It is the team's responsibility to find a common time with the other team, not ESEA's. Pay attention to the match comm and scheduling won't be an issue at all.. it really takes almost no effort on your behalf.
2. The admins are hands off because of their automated system, (not sure how well it works for SC2 but for other games it is great) if you really needed an admins help you should have entered a support ticket. Why would the admins talk to the other teams for you? Are you so high and mighty that you can't communicate with your competitors to try and set up a mutually beneficial time to play your match at?
3. Yes, I agree the coverage for SC2 is quite awful, but it is something they are continually improving on (even with ESEA's other games the coverage gets better and better every season)
4. Light years more successful than ESEA? I don't think either of those leagues is successful enough to put out $80k+ prize pools every few months. Boycotting ESEA would do nothing but make them drop SC2 altogether, they are already trying to improve the league and you not playing in it isn't going to make them try and improve any more than they already do.
5. They don't make $8 per player every season from SC2, all money from entry fees into all leagues go into the prize pool. Their income comes from 14k+ CS 1.6/CS:S/TF2 monthly subscribers for their premium service (and again, they invest quite a bit of that back into improving ESEA). Saying they don't give anything back to the community is kind of ignorant. In season 2 of ESEA SC2 league there were 20 teams with about 6 players per team average times $8 for the league fee is $960 while the prize payout for the league season was $5000, so how are they not giving back to the community when their prize pool is $4040 more than the total fees from players they collected?
6. Give ESEA support and time to improve, and you won't find a better league.
On October 12 2011 05:13 AnodyneSea wrote: Anyone who has played in ESEA leagues or is familiar with ESEA knows how shit they really are. (sorry da_bears this is not directed at you but higher powers) In CS finals if you do NOT attend their lan they ban you for a year, what the helllllllll really. lpKane(he started esea with torbull) has been an unprofessional prick for years and refuses to change, his business model is just all wrong and moving in the wrong direction. Yet they're still in business because simply every other league in NA for CS has collapsed.
I'm really sure I'm hearing both sides of this story but I feel like they should reschedule the grand finals of a league when your playing for money with professional teams. But if what da_bears is saying and that the scheduling was sound for awhile... i dunno
ps really really hate esea
After reading this, I kept reading ESEA as KESPA.
Anyway, hope you you guys get your shit together and establish yourselves as a well-respected SC2 clan league. Definitely wouldn't mind that in the scene. (if players---and not just iNcontroL---are that unhappy, there is shit needing getting together)
On October 12 2011 15:14 SirScoots wrote: If this happened to Craig when he ran 3D, he would have gone batshit on the league, funny how times change.
Pretty sad you would post something like this but after you allowed incontrol to run wild on these forums I guess it doesn't suprise me at all. Don't bash the people who have supported the game that you sold out on when you let gotfrag die. You know as well as anyone else how good kane and torbull have been to the FPS scene.
On October 12 2011 03:01 dbizzle wrote: that was out of my control, EG attended IPL which they could not play in the finals. It was an unfortunate timing for EG and the schedule for ESEA, I hope in the future we can avoid such conflicts.
It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention.
Woah. Maybe for SC2 but ESEA has always been a dominant name in esports for 1.6 and source. They might have done you wrong in your opinion but the sentence above was not needed and simply detracted from your statement.
should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~ i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals. x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship. ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote: should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~ i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals. x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship. ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion.
Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion.
On October 12 2011 06:06 iNcontroL wrote: I don't want your respect I want a competent league that doesn't give w/o's in the finals. I want an admin who can admit he was wrong and not continue to go "ESEA is the best!" and then later admit "well this is my first time running a league" No shit? I couldn't tell.. well here is some huge advice GET THE FINALS PLAYED.
Want me to act professional in regards to your league? Then run a professional league. You yourself talked about giving respect and getting it. Well guess what? That sword cuts both ways. I have 0 respect for ESEA thus far. Want my respect? Stop being a shit league that makes up rules around the finals and would rather w/o a team than play the finals.
Ironically the most PR ESEA will get in 2 seasons will be me talking about this on SOTG.
holy shit you act like a 12 year old child, grow up, wtf is wrong with you? You do realize your posts are that of an angry man that has insecurities? You should go to church, aren't you religious? Act more immature please, it's quite amusing, you're trying to hard to talk shit over something that can't be fixed...
Da Bears! Best of luck next season in ESEA. Hopefully all this can work itself out. What happened is in the past now and one can only try to improve on that.
P.S. Big fan of you and 3D in CS. Still remember you from Frag or Die, best cs frag movie EVER!
On October 12 2011 06:00 dbizzle wrote: I never called every other league a "backyard" or talk about the way you run your league. I apologized to your manager and all the other team managers via msging and on the phone about the delays and hiccups that happened in ESEA. You have your right to say whatever you want to say and voice your opinions on the league.
I am learning how to run a better league with each season and things will be improved. The way we run things are a little different, yea the coverage was very little, but thats ok. In due time things will get rolling and you will see a lot more coverage with ESEA sc2.
This is my first league I have ever ran and I've made some mistakes and learning new things every week. I am grateful that ESEA is branching off into sc2 and looking forward to season 3.
Name calling is just immature and unprofessional, I am here to let you guys know of a new season and to get your feedback. If you're that type of person who would rather bitch and yell and pull out your hair because something went wrong instead of calmly assessing the situation, thats cool man. Just do it in respect, other wise you wont get any respect thrown back at you.
I don't think you quite get what needs to be done yet.
Right now your publicity and marketing are so far behind the schedule its unacceptable to even consider asking for league entry fees or awarding prizes. Heck you even had entrants who entered thinking was 1v1 because of how poorly presented the league is. You're just lucky that it has received so little coverage.
I don't see InControl here asking for a CW finals REMATCH or anything like that at all. The fact he has to make it public that your league just 'ran' with a walkover finals without any clear justification. Given there was absolutely no effect of whether the finals was held the same day (which team EG intended to honor), or a day after makes a pretty clear case that the management decision was absolute rubbish. Especially if higher-ups make a decision saying they 'can't wait', it just shows how little respect ESEA has for the players and teams of the league. Doesn't matter that they pitch money to fly people to finals, the mere fact they think it's okay to announce a w/o knowing there was internet outage. Hell it's better PR salvage to withdraw the w/o decision than to just pretend to be ignorant about the outage.
There is a very clear process of actions that need to be done to rectify this. You cannot make a claim that the league is great and well run considering even you yourself admit this is your first league that you have run. It has been made clear on this thread there were many complaints about the ways things happened - no publicity, no admins, no penalties until finals, no consideration for teams who FOLLOWED rules.
ESEA needs to release a public apology to teams for the poor management of the league.
Please understand that the sc2 division has had its problems, when I talk about ESEA being a top league. I'm referring to the years of 1.6 and source seasons that have been running with out a hitch. SC2 is an infant compared to the other games in ESEA, things will mess up and go wrong. We are fixing problems when they appear as fast as we can. ESEA is in it for the long run, and we will prove it to the community.
I appreciate that you are trying to make it work better.
However refusing to release a public apology (as implied in your reply) just shows everyone how far this league is willing to go in terms of professionalism, which unfortunately isn't very far.
There is a difference between working towards something and refusing to admit that there were problems in the past. Look at all the other big tournaments. Do you think they publicly apologise because they like to? I don't think so. It's part of being a legitimate league.
I have apologized many times to the public and to the managers, and again I am sorry for how things turned out and how this thread has turned out. I do admit there were problems in the past, I have always tried to be as level headed as I can be. Fixing problems and trying to be successful at a league takes some steps and hard work which can take some time here and there. I'll say that so far season 2, even though it had some problems, were immensely better in terms of things being reported and delays compared to season one.
I respect you da bears , you have done a lot for competitive gaming as a whole on the counter strike level playing for high level teams like EG back in the days, now taking on starcraft 2, hope you do well, and ESEA is a good league that doesn't accept failure because of arrogant people like incontrol bashing the league instead of giving constructive criticism in at least a semi appropriate manner. ESEA will be a league that starcraft gamers will come to, I've been around the league since the very first year it's started and there is no reason ESEA shouldn't be a front runner as one of the top leagues in North America. Some people just don't understand that your league is a business and you can't delay a 85+ thousand dollar season for games like TF2/Source/1.6 just because starcraft is behind on schedule.
On October 12 2011 06:06 iNcontroL wrote: I don't want your respect I want a competent league that doesn't give w/o's in the finals. I want an admin who can admit he was wrong and not continue to go "ESEA is the best!" and then later admit "well this is my first time running a league" No shit? I couldn't tell.. well here is some huge advice GET THE FINALS PLAYED.
Want me to act professional in regards to your league? Then run a professional league. You yourself talked about giving respect and getting it. Well guess what? That sword cuts both ways. I have 0 respect for ESEA thus far. Want my respect? Stop being a shit league that makes up rules around the finals and would rather w/o a team than play the finals.
Ironically the most PR ESEA will get in 2 seasons will be me talking about this on SOTG.
You exaggerate a lot of my words when I'm trying to explain the situations of what and why things happened. I don't want to publicly put down EG and tell everyone that we've had many problems with your team through out both seasons of reporting scores and going weeks and weeks with out turning in any replays, thus delaying the season itself. You want SC2 to be the next big game and to be like korea in terms of money and how much they love it over there. Yet you can't even throw in positive advice with out sounding like an immature brat.
If you want a potential league to succeed (who is willing to throw down thousands of dollars) it takes the community to fuel it. You want to talk bad about esea and how shitty it is on your talk show, go ahead, all you are doing is putting a negative impact in the sc2 community.
You remind me of the people who bashed Championship Gaming Series when they were throwing MILLIONS of dollars for a gaming. Yea the format and things weren't ran right, but it takes time, trial and error sometimes to make something right. If the whole cs and css community showed more support the league could very well be here still today.
I don't care who you are or what team you play for, if you don't show up to a finals when you are suppose to play, you forfeit, go ahead and try it at any tournament. Even other team managers hate dealing with you because your head is so far up your own ass that you think the world is willing to bend over backwards for EG. I barely even know you and I already don't like you. You are a big icon in the starcraft 2 community and you represent yourself and EG terribly with your attitude. ESEA wasn't the best ran league, but at least I have respect for other people and try my best to fix the problems.
I look forward to reading this out loud on SOTG.
You sound like a fantastic ESEA admin! Complaining that I call you names but then turning around and doing exactly that. You want to try and say I am hurting esports because I call you out for being a shit admin? LOL try not being a shit admin dude.
It's obvious at this point you've lost it. Laurent and creig are good people. You are a horrible admin who is getting pissy because you can't admit when you are wrong and would rather start calling me names.
Also comparing my complaints about ESEA to people complaining about CGS is laughable. CGS fucked up.. not people complaining about them. Fuck you for even suggesting otherwise. And here you go again, fucking up another league and then blaming the people who are upset about it
Sort of like NASL fucked up season 1 right? Not what geoff thinks, you're close minded, no matter how many people that complained about NASL, your mind is set on the fact that you were associated with the league so it had to be good am I right or am I right? Wait, you can't admit you're wrong and would rather start calling the community names.
On October 12 2011 07:29 TomSlick wrote: im pretty sure ESEA is about the only event EG can actually win so i completely understand incontrols rage here.
On October 12 2011 15:36 SirScoots wrote: I simply pointed out that when he was managing a team, he would have lost his mind had a league tried to pull this on his team. Simple as that.
Erik also called our EGMC "a backyard online league" is that the one that gives out $10k, streams 4 nights a week, and flies casters to a studio to cast the finals. We need more of these shitty backyard online leagues if you ask me.
I never commented on EGMC or called any league a backyard league. Incontrol really loves to twist words around to make a point.
On October 12 2011 05:08 dbizzle wrote: You do not run ESEA, you do not know how the system works. This isn't your backyard online league
On October 12 2011 11:51 escher wrote: I tend to disagree with iNcontroL on a lot of things (for example, he apparently believes in creationism
say what? that's embarrassing.
I agree that a w/o finals is a pretty retarded decision. Every accommodation should be made so that your league final gets played. I'm also laughing hysterically at incontrol arguing the logic of decisions made by a league when he (NASL) and EG (EGMC) have been affiliated with tournaments/leagues that have had some of dumbest decisions known to man and the end result was usually, 'it's our league we will run it how we see fit.' Are people's memories really that short?
incontrol being a raging hypocrite when it's not really necessary, shocker.
uh the difference is I am a commentator for both those leagues and not an admin (he is) Also I am not a creationist.. you reddit people are really bad at reading.
I'm not a redditor.
I understand there is a difference between being a commentator and an admin. I was more referring to such moments like your tireless defense of EG's stance in the EGMC when Liquid was trying to argue over the playability of the servers. EG's stance was pretty silly but it basically came down to, 'this is how we want to run our league' and that was that, liquid pulled out.
That is just one of many examples one could illustrate where this whole situation is highly ironic.
The greatest of all though may just be you bashing into this relatively unknown tournament admin calling him a SHIT admin etc. etc., when he made a decision in the best interest of his league (or so he thought). I don't think it was a good decision but how is you laying into him calling him shitty at his profession over a poor decision any different then when you sob to the community about calling you a shitty player because you never win anything/perform well? Maybe I'm delusional but I think that's really silly. It's ok for you to bash this guy for being a 'shitty' admin but the community needs to be more positive towards your 'shitty' play? Weird.
This isn't simply a bash post either, I really enjoy you on SOTG, you can be goddamn hilarious but I think you should take a step back and realize wtf you're doing sometimes. This and countless other examples is why you're so controversial in this community. You're a superstar of SC2 with way more fans than haters, but shit like this thread is a huge reason you have such a loud albeit minority voice against you so often.
ps glad that you aren't a creationist, phew.
Still absolutely not the same lol
Believe it or not me one time defending my team's league and saying the ability to make rules for your own league does not exclude me from ever calling out another league for a bad decision. I know, confusing but I am sure you can work your way through that one.
Additionally, I called him a "shit admin" because he made a shit choice. Me getting called names by random people like you and me saying that is a bad thing that happens in this community is not the same as me being mad at a decision _everyone_ agrees was terrible. Again, this may mystify you, but me being upset with random people calling me a bad player does not exclude me from criticizing people in any profession ever. Insane!
Further, your name continuously pops up in threads I am involved in. You need to get a new hobby.. whatever makes you think it is fun to follow me around and try to argue is going to become a rather shallow experience. I have recognized you as the troll you are and will ignore you in the future.
Analogies are not supposed to be 'absolutely the same thing', it's why they're called analogies.
Of course you defending your teams league or you asking the community to be more positive about results doesn't mean that you cannot go off on tangents, ridicule others or do anything else you could ever think of doing. Nobody has said otherwise. The entire point is it comes off as silly when you get on your soap box about the communities negativity etc., and then act like you have in this thread.
I'm sorry you have me targetted as a dirty troll who should be ignored. I generally think my positions are pretty rational and thought out. I think the worst thing I ever said to you was leaving casting/shows to focus on playing was a bad idea because you shined more as a community member than as a player. I would have given that advice to my best friend in the same situation. I think I may have also been harsh about EG results at some point as well because I've been an EG fan for a very, very, long time and until recently, I didn't feel the team was playing at the level I expect from an organization like EG.
Oh well. I'll still wear my EG shirts but just because people disagree with you or call you out on actions doesn't mean they're always a troll. People can disagree and argue and not be trolling one another. -.-
On October 12 2011 11:51 escher wrote: I tend to disagree with iNcontroL on a lot of things (for example, he apparently believes in creationism
say what? that's embarrassing.
I agree that a w/o finals is a pretty retarded decision. Every accommodation should be made so that your league final gets played. I'm also laughing hysterically at incontrol arguing the logic of decisions made by a league when he (NASL) and EG (EGMC) have been affiliated with tournaments/leagues that have had some of dumbest decisions known to man and the end result was usually, 'it's our league we will run it how we see fit.' Are people's memories really that short?
incontrol being a raging hypocrite when it's not really necessary, shocker.
uh the difference is I am a commentator for both those leagues and not an admin (he is) Also I am not a creationist.. you reddit people are really bad at reading.
I'm not a redditor.
I understand there is a difference between being a commentator and an admin. I was more referring to such moments like your tireless defense of EG's stance in the EGMC when Liquid was trying to argue over the playability of the servers. EG's stance was pretty silly but it basically came down to, 'this is how we want to run our league' and that was that, liquid pulled out.
That is just one of many examples one could illustrate where this whole situation is highly ironic.
The greatest of all though may just be you bashing into this relatively unknown tournament admin calling him a SHIT admin etc. etc., when he made a decision in the best interest of his league (or so he thought). I don't think it was a good decision but how is you laying into him calling him shitty at his profession over a poor decision any different then when you sob to the community about calling you a shitty player because you never win anything/perform well? Maybe I'm delusional but I think that's really silly. It's ok for you to bash this guy for being a 'shitty' admin but the community needs to be more positive towards your 'shitty' play? Weird.
This isn't simply a bash post either, I really enjoy you on SOTG, you can be goddamn hilarious but I think you should take a step back and realize wtf you're doing sometimes. This and countless other examples is why you're so controversial in this community. You're a superstar of SC2 with way more fans than haters, but shit like this thread is a huge reason you have such a loud albeit minority voice against you so often.
ps glad that you aren't a creationist, phew.
Still absolutely not the same lol
Believe it or not me one time defending my team's league and saying the ability to make rules for your own league does not exclude me from ever calling out another league for a bad decision. I know, confusing but I am sure you can work your way through that one.
Additionally, I called him a "shit admin" because he made a shit choice. Me getting called names by random people like you and me saying that is a bad thing that happens in this community is not the same as me being mad at a decision _everyone_ agrees was terrible. Again, this may mystify you, but me being upset with random people calling me a bad player does not exclude me from criticizing people in any profession ever. Insane!
Further, your name continuously pops up in threads I am involved in. You need to get a new hobby.. whatever makes you think it is fun to follow me around and try to argue is going to become a rather shallow experience. I have recognized you as the troll you are and will ignore you in the future.
Analogies are not supposed to be 'absolutely the same thing', it's why they're called analogies.
Of course you defending your teams league or you asking the community to be more positive about results doesn't mean that you cannot go off on tangents, ridicule others or do anything else you could ever think of doing. Nobody has said otherwise. The entire point is it comes off as silly when you get on your soap box about the communities negativity etc., and then act like you have in this thread.
I'm sorry you have me targetted as a dirty troll who should be ignored. I generally think my positions are pretty rational and thought out. I think the worst thing I ever said to you was leaving casting/shows to focus on playing was a bad idea because you shined more as a community member than as a player. I would have given that advice to my best friend in the same situation. I think I may have also been harsh about EG results at some point as well because I've been an EG fan for a very, very, long time and until recently, I didn't feel the team was playing at the level I expect from an organization like EG.
Oh well. I'll still wear my EG shirts but just because people disagree with you or call you out on actions doesn't mean they're always a troll. People can disagree and argue and not be trolling one another. -.-
On October 12 2011 15:36 SirScoots wrote: I simply pointed out that when he was managing a team, he would have lost his mind had a league tried to pull this on his team. Simple as that.
Erik also called our EGMC "a backyard online league" is that the one that gives out $10k, streams 4 nights a week, and flies casters to a studio to cast the finals. We need more of these shitty backyard online leagues if you ask me.
I never commented on EGMC or called any league a backyard league. Incontrol really loves to twist words around to make a point.
On October 12 2011 15:36 SirScoots wrote: I simply pointed out that when he was managing a team, he would have lost his mind had a league tried to pull this on his team. Simple as that.
Erik also called our EGMC "a backyard online league" is that the one that gives out $10k, streams 4 nights a week, and flies casters to a studio to cast the finals. We need more of these shitty backyard online leagues if you ask me.
I never commented on EGMC or called any league a backyard league. Incontrol really loves to twist words around to make a point.
On October 12 2011 05:08 dbizzle wrote: You do not run ESEA, you do not know how the system works. This isn't your backyard online league
You were saying?
I was being pretty general, I did not mean EGMC in any way or think about EGMC while saying that.
I could figure that much myself by your defending of the statement, but next time you should probably choose your words a little more carefully. Since you were speaking directly to Incontrol, and he's had his hand in BOTH the EGMC and NASL, saying "your" might make someone believe that one of those leagues are being referenced....which seems to be what happened here. Just thought I'd point that out. I don't want to get involved with this shit storm further than I have to. :<
On October 12 2011 15:36 SirScoots wrote: I simply pointed out that when he was managing a team, he would have lost his mind had a league tried to pull this on his team. Simple as that.
Erik also called our EGMC "a backyard online league" is that the one that gives out $10k, streams 4 nights a week, and flies casters to a studio to cast the finals. We need more of these shitty backyard online leagues if you ask me.
I never commented on EGMC or called any league a backyard league. Incontrol really loves to twist words around to make a point.
On October 12 2011 05:08 dbizzle wrote: You do not run ESEA, you do not know how the system works. This isn't your backyard online league
You were saying?
I was being pretty general, I did not mean EGMC in any way or think about EGMC while saying that.
Well since Incontrol is going to MLG Orlando you should talk with him about these issues, it's much easier to explain to someone the thoughts running through your head face to face than over the internet, people like incontrol don't understand we're all humans and make mistakes, which he's done in competitive gaming for a while now.
This kind of immaturity is what makes esports such a joke lol. You have ESEA trying to support sc2 with thousands of dollars and people are just tearing it apart. Some people are hating just because a iNcontroL is holding a grudge about an unfortunate event. A lot of you like to compare video games to actual sports right? With that being said, it doesn't matter if your bus broke down or if the internet went out. If you can't show up to the game, you forfeit. It sucks but it's not the end of the world. There's always next season and plenty of other tournaments to look forward to.
lpkane knew and stated himself that it was going to be rough at the start, but ESEA was looking forward to grinding it out while improving from season to season. Which is what dabears has been saying. And which is what we should be looking forward to. They're even welcoming input from us. It blows my mind how negative some of you are when they're just trying to better their league for the players and spectators.
This is weird. Incontrol is right on pretty much every point he makes, yet I can't possibly make myself agree with him.
Want me to act professional in regards to your league?
More general, it would be much appreciated if you could act at least a little bit professional in your role as EG spokesperson. A role that you seem to have assumed long ago and still fulfill for god knows what reason.
Once again you attack someone in public who tries to be civil in his responses to you for so long, and once again you keep going and going, not knowing when to stop.
On October 13 2011 01:58 yawnoC wrote: Xeris post made me laugh. He contradicts himself a lot.
I now hope even more that ESEA becomes on of the biggest clan leagues out there just so fnatic gets shafted despite my love for there CS division.
Did you manage in the in ESEA SC2 League? No, I didn't think so. I did and it was fucking awfully run. The ESEA system is set up terribly and is more in favor of people who want FF wins more then anything.
iNcontroL wrote: It's shit like this that will forever hold ESEA as a second rate clan league that continues to disappoint and get lackluster attention. How can a community take an organization serious when it basically castrates it's own finals?
iNcontroL wrote: If you want to get serious and join the other organizations in running legit tourneys where people rally around and get excited let us know!
iNcontroL wrote: Do you have any fucking interest in a finals for a league? Do you care about the games integrity at all?
iNcontroL wrote: And no, each season is not running better and better. This season ended with a walkover and a shitty thread announcing the next season with a "oh btw here are the places for the previous season:
iNcontroL wrote: Kidding me? That sounds better to you?
iNcontroL wrote: It's fucking terrible.
iNcontroL wrote: Great. You seem to be a fantastic league admin.
iNcontroL wrote: WTF man? Are you literally insane?
iNcontroL wrote: For future reference: It'd be best if you didn't continue to try and slander me by calling me unprofessional, other leagues "backyard" and go on about how special the ESEA league is in a thread discussing a major fuck up.
Who's slandering who, do you see the shit you have said? He called every other league a backyard league by saying ESEA wasn't one? This thread is about how bad ESEA is, not Season 3, and he needs to acknowledge how shit ESEA is and stop trying to promote Season 3?
iNcontroL wrote: PS: Season 1 and 2 are the same pile of shit but at least in season 1 they played the finals..
iNcontroL wrote: I look forward to reading this out loud on SOTG.
You sound like a fantastic ESEA admin! Complaining that I call you names but then turning around and doing exactly that. You want to try and say I am hurting esports because I call you out for being a shit admin? LOL try not being a shit admin dude.
and the kicker!
iNcontroL wrote: Take your own advice: be more respectful if you want anyone to take you seriously.
------------
Here's the deal:
I hate that Incontrol is being backed up and supported for this type of behavior.
ESEA has clearly done a poor (maybe even horrible) job with Starcraft 2 so far.
It is unacceptable for a league to charge money and not deliver a quality experience or even a finals. They are apparently going to work on that.
It is also unacceptable for somebody with the status of Incontrol to be so aggressive and rude in a public forum. He has no plans to work on this and goes between bashing those who call him out as trolls/haters or ignoring them.
Who cares what Incontrol's status is? What matters is that he's right, not whether he has a lot of posts or says things on camera.
The league made a joke of a decision, and is being called on it. Every single one of your posts in this thread is a personal attack on Incontrol, rather than actually addressing the fact that the league fucked up big time and is now trying to sweep it under the rug. Merely saying "they're working on it and it's new and blah blah" isn't a valid excuse for a pay to enter league. Why would you shoot the messenger?
On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote: should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~ i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals. x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship. ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion.
Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion.
Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money.
On October 13 2011 06:10 Insane wrote: Who cares what Incontrol's status is? What matters is that he's right, not whether he has a lot of posts or says things on camera.
The league made a joke of a decision, and is being called on it. Every single one of your posts in this thread is a personal attack on Incontrol, rather than actually addressing the fact that the league fucked up big time and is now trying to sweep it under the rug. Merely saying "they're working on it and it's new and blah blah" isn't a valid excuse for a pay to enter league. Why would you shoot the messenger?
The problem I have is that Incontrol turned the discussion from anything that could be any way positive to him using his community influence to be aggressive and rude and behave inappropriately while still garnering support.
The last season of ESEA ended in an awful way, there's a discussion to be had there about how to stop that from happening again and what needs to take place for ESEA to have a productive SC2 division.
The answer to that isn't for pro players to bash the league and insult admins, while trying to accuse the admin of insulting the SC2 community. Trying to defend your league =/= attacking a community.
It just bewilders me that ESEA is getting attacked so viciously. That's not how you fix anything. And yet somehow whenever I or somebody else brings that up, it is us making personal attacks against Incontrol.
No. No. No. This isn't how SC2 works, this isn't how mature discussions work. You don't fix something or work with somebody to resolve a problem by beating them down and behaving inappropriately because it's your home turf.
This thread isn't about the problems Incontrol had with the Season 2 finals. It's about Season 3. At least it should be. Instead I'm reading through post after post of Incontrol cursing out ESEA admins while complaining about he and EG are being victimized.
If someone is asking for people to pay them money, then it is absolutely the right time to bring up how awfully they fucked you up in the past so other people are not similarly screwed over.
To be honest, after such a terrible fuck up, I think ESEA really needs to make a change in who is running the league. It's hard to imagine the league being anything other than a joke at this point without some drastic changes.
On October 13 2011 06:24 Insane wrote: If someone is asking for people to pay them money, then it is absolutely the right time to bring up how awfully they fucked you up in the past so other people are not similarly screwed over.
To be honest, after such a terrible fuck up, I think ESEA really needs to make a change in who is running the league. It's hard to imagine the league being anything other than a joke at this point without some drastic changes.
Meh. It is clear my point can't be demonstrated. People aren't seeing beyond what ESEA has done wrong.
Whether or not they have badly erred, I think the community and especially pro player reaction in SC2 is quickly becoming one of entitlement and aggressive bias. I don't like seeing somebody known and respected like Incontrol behaving like this, and it is even worse that he gets a free pass and full support for it - no matter whether he is right or wrong about the specific situation.
On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote: should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~ i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals. x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship. ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion.
Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion.
Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money.
On October 13 2011 06:24 Insane wrote: If someone is asking for people to pay them money, then it is absolutely the right time to bring up how awfully they fucked you up in the past so other people are not similarly screwed over.
To be honest, after such a terrible fuck up, I think ESEA really needs to make a change in who is running the league. It's hard to imagine the league being anything other than a joke at this point without some drastic changes.
How dare they collect an amount of money from the players equal to less than one fifth of what they were giving back to the players!
Edit: ~$960 collected; $5000 payed out to the players
On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote: should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~ i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals. x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship. ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion.
Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion.
Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money.
Don't instigate about what you don't know o.o
Kinda my point, about something completely different than what I was making it about. For some reason, all the SC2 community wants to do is talk shit about others and say how much better they are than everybody else.
I don't get it. Things are going so well for SC2. Why is the attitude one of, "I'm getting fucked over, so fuck you!".
On October 13 2011 06:20 hunger wrote: This thread isn't about the problems Incontrol had with the Season 2 finals. It's about Season 3. At least it should be. Instead I'm reading through post after post of Incontrol cursing out ESEA admins while complaining about he and EG are being victimized.
Did I miss the thread where ESEA announced the Season 2 finals date and stream? perhaps a LR thread? How about the thread they made to explain the walkover issue in the finals?
I only see threads announcing when they open the sign up for their league, conveniently the time where they are looking for people to pay them.
I've used ESEA for cs 1.6 since it first came online, before they had an anti-cheat client. They provided the cs community(and other fps' games) what no other league could offer: anti-cheat, servers, significant prize pools, coverage etc. Their cs league wasn't always amazing and it definitely took them some time to get it right. However, they did get it right-- REALLY right. The cs league is fantastic, and is single-handedly keeping the NA community alive.
If this is your first encounter with the organization please try reserve yourself from taking a knee-jerk reaction and instantly shit-listing them because of iNcontrol. Instead, try to support ESEA and accept they won't instantly be perfect because they are a company that is rooted in fps games(co-founder was manager of Team3D) but will also listen to the community and try to make the right changes.
If anyone is going to MLG orlando, I will be working for astro headset company. Please stop by the booth, ask for Erik and say hi and you can talk to me about sc2, the league or whatever.
On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote: should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~ i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals. x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship. ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion.
Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion.
Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money.
Don't instigate about what you don't know o.o
Kinda my point, about something completely different than what I was making it about. For some reason, all the SC2 community wants to do is talk shit about others and say how much better they are than everybody else.
I don't get it. Things are going so well for SC2. Why is the attitude one of, "I'm getting fucked over, so fuck you!".
It's good that the bad leagues are getting pointed out. (This thread should not have anything to do with ESEA CS - great if they are doing well for the CS teams, but that is clearly not the case here). With E-sports growing, it makes sense that a lot of leagues would pop up and try to get their share of the players and viewers attention. People will point out at the bad ones and hopefully they will die if they don't improve. At this point, it seems almost unanimous that ESEA SC2 is currently a bad league. Obviously, some people don't feel they are admitting to their mistakes properly and show little signs of wanting to improve. Hopefully this thread stays on topic, and to me that is about the failures of last season and how they will change their operations for their upcoming season.
Edit: dbizzle largely did that in his last post and that's awesome
On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote: should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~ i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals. x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship. ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion.
Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion.
Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money.
Don't instigate about what you don't know o.o
Know what I do know? I know damn well that if I was scheduled to play a team comparable to EG. and they couldn't show up I would do anything I could to make the finals work. I also know damn well that if my team was awarded $5000 for something we didn't even accomplish then as a team we wouldn't have that for one second.
Are you saying you're happy with getting that money even though you didn't accomplish what the prize was meant for? Why don't you announce you are going to play the finals on your own terms and divide the money accordingly or something, and bypass the failed ESEA finals. At least then you would determine who actually deserves to be considered the "champions"
On October 13 2011 06:24 Insane wrote: If someone is asking for people to pay them money, then it is absolutely the right time to bring up how awfully they fucked you up in the past so other people are not similarly screwed over.
To be honest, after such a terrible fuck up, I think ESEA really needs to make a change in who is running the league. It's hard to imagine the league being anything other than a joke at this point without some drastic changes.
How dare they collect an amount of money from the players equal to less than one fifth of what they were giving back to the players!
Edit: ~$960 collected; $5000 payed out to the players
Are they paying out $5000 dollars in this topic? No, they're collecting it. Did they pay it out fairly last season? Again, no - they forfeited a team that had a very real shot at winning the title.
Regardless of the payout ratio, the majority of the teams who sign up are never going to see any money back from the league. Instead, they're paying money to be able to participate in a league that apparently provides a poor experience, and pays out to (potentially) the wrong team due to administrative issues.
Yes, they're absolutely legitimately allowed to collect money from players if they want to (and the players agree to it obviously). But when you are having people pay for your event, you very much need to provide a higher standard of service. From this topic, it looks as if they should be poorly received as a free league, let alone one that costs money to enter.
I have been on ESEA since about 2006 and they are the worst group of admins I've ever dealt with. I have spent the last 5 years banned from there services for apparently BAN evasion. Considering I got 1 good year out of ESEA before I ruined some kid. I was never banned for anything before that, but one day I was banned for evasion. I evaded a ban and was banned for 3 months or whatever. I waited about 5 months signed back up banned in about 4 hours for Ban evasion. Second offense 6 months. I wait again another 8-9 months sign back on, boom banned next day, this time it didn't say how long I was banned. It just gave me a date about 2 years down the line. . Finally I find out it's because you have shitty children admins like HollaHH who let his emotions and his poor CS skill run him and his judgments to ban people. When emailing ESEA many times, considering I've spent about 50$ just to be banned every time. I never got a response, maybe an automated letter stating that I've been banned for evading and it is what it is. Fuck you ESEA when CS:GO comes out I hope someone competent will run it.
On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote: should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~ i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals. x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship. ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion.
Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion.
Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money.
Don't instigate about what you don't know o.o
Know what I do know? I know damn well that if I was scheduled to play a team comparable to EG. and they couldn't show up I would do anything I could to make the finals work. I also know damn well that if my team was awarded $5000 for something we didn't even accomplish then as a team we wouldn't have that for one second.
Are you saying you're happy with getting that money even though you didn't accomplish what the prize was meant for? Why don't you announce you are going to play the finals on your own terms and divide the money accordingly or something, and bypass the failed ESEA finals. At least then you would determine who actually deserves to be considered the "champions"
1st place was 2800 not 5000 but that's besides the point. I'm trying to say you don't know what we think, are doing, or anything. Comment on the league and the finals. Not us
On October 13 2011 01:58 yawnoC wrote: Xeris post made me laugh. He contradicts himself a lot.
I now hope even more that ESEA becomes on of the biggest clan leagues out there just so fnatic gets shafted despite my love for there CS division.
Did you manage in the in ESEA SC2 League? No, I didn't think so. I did and it was fucking awfully run. The ESEA system is set up terribly and is more in favor of people who want FF wins more then anything.
I've read your post and you have some good advice. ESEA has been more than lenient towards EG, and other teams which is behind the scenes and do not wish to go over in a public forum. I felt disgusted when I had to make the decision to give x6 the ffw. In the public's eyes, it looks really really bad, but I made my decision.
Our main focus for ESEA is to just get the league out there and work on it from there. Yes there have been a lot of problems with score reporting, but its been fixed. I know there hasn't been much coverage for ESEA sc2, but that is going to change, we are focusing a lot more and hired some writers for season 3.
ESEA has coders that code everything from website, to replay score reporting as well as trying to implement a stat system. The site is becoming more sc2 friendly, that is something I do not control but I can assure you it is improving all the time.
As for ffing in playoffs, I do not like doing it, but when you play in a league, check your website msges and emails often. There have been many instances in season one and 2 where I could not get a hold of any manager or scheduler from a team. Most people don't even fill out their info on the website so there are no other means to contact them. FXO was one of those teams from the first season and its unfortunate for that.
As a league admin I've come to realize that many of these top teams with sponsors overload their players with leagues and tournaments, and thats great for sc2. But if you have a consistent habit of always being late, never making match times and cant even report scores on time. Then either get more players or don't play in the league. EG was a prime example of that, and I was lenient enough to let them make up their matches and help them report their scores for which they could never report because they couldn't even get their players to send in their replays most of the time.
Yur last statements about EG makes no sense, when incontrol says they were waiting two weeks for the other teams to finish their matches. You say they were the ones beeing always late and never making matching times? and then you helped them to finish 2 weeks earlier then the other teams? why didnt you help the other teams, too? its now you, who is making EG bad or incontrol talking total BS.
have just skimmed through a bit of it.. but the first rant by incontrol was a bit out of line. If you all want to know what is 'killing eSports'.. its players/teams/personalities that do not realize that it's the leagues like OGL, ESEA, CEVO and others that are the reason eSports is around today. These organizations (past and current) have been there for the 'base' of players/teams that make up what eSports is all about. I understand that those that are in the spotlight and getting all of the 'followers' and such are the peeps that 'represent the face' of eSports.. but its the leagues and organizations that continue to offer the base of players (and pros) a place to compete. eSports is NOT about 'entertainment'... its about 'sports'.
My 2 cents.. but I may need to read up more and give some input on the actual situation.
Okay I know how there is much hate for EG and how they get preferential treatment, but ESEA most definitely dropped the ball on this tournament. I will say that my experience with ESEA was sad and this happened both seasons. So unless you were involved in the tournament please don't jump on the ihateincontrol bandwagon.
On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote: should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~ i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals. x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship. ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion.
Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion.
Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money.
Don't instigate about what you don't know o.o
Know what I do know? I know damn well that if I was scheduled to play a team comparable to EG. and they couldn't show up I would do anything I could to make the finals work. I also know damn well that if my team was awarded $5000 for something we didn't even accomplish then as a team we wouldn't have that for one second.
Are you saying you're happy with getting that money even though you didn't accomplish what the prize was meant for? Why don't you announce you are going to play the finals on your own terms and divide the money accordingly or something, and bypass the failed ESEA finals. At least then you would determine who actually deserves to be considered the "champions"
1st place was 2800 not 5000 but that's besides the point. I'm trying to say you don't know what we think, are doing, or anything. Comment on the league and the finals. Not us
Would you mind giving the xSix side of the story then? If all sides just give out statements about the situation then there would be less confusion and speculation and more actual facts. For example, I would like to know if xSix insisted to play the finals after the ESEA told them that it would probably be a forfiet win and I don't want to accuse xSix nor the ESEA wrongly because I don't have the facts.
Incontrol lost it. Why even argue? Why keep repeating the same things? If he finds ESEA league horrible, just say it, which he already did. Why continue acting like some child whos throwing tantrum? He said the OP is stubborn and refused to admit. But he did apologised. What more can you do? If other teams find it horrible as well, i doubt they will take part in next season's. OP agreed season1+2 kinda fail, but said hes working on it.
But i still dont see the need of Incontrol arguing. IMO, hes a well respected community personality. Find it kinda shameful to see him ranting off in a public forum. If every team that took part says it is horrible, people will boycott it.
I find it hilarious that people are actually defending ESEA. They deserve whats being said and whats coming to them. Whatever incontrol or any or player/manager is saying about ESEA is deserved and they should sit back and take it. They failed to run a successful league and they shitted on their own reputations and robbed themselves, the viewers, the teams a legit finals.
The only way they reverse this is to make season 3 an enjoyable season for both the players, managers, team staff in general AND the viewers. Until then, take the responsibility, take the hate, take the criticisms. And if ESEA are really stubborn people then just don't be surprised if your league continues to be a joke.
Hope you guys take season 3 seriously and improve - that appears to be your goal anyway.
I for one am glad that I knew nothing of this league before this thread got posted.
There are plenty of other(better) tourneys out there. I suggest we all support the tourneys which provide quality entertainment and boycott all these leagues which goals are too busy trying to improve profits instead of improving thier own league...
Remember how IPL started? They had something like a 5k prize pool season one. But with hard work and high investments provided top notch quality entertainment. With tons of fan support, they saw it was a worthwhile endeavor, so they improved and upsized. Now, this weekend IPL hosted one of the best tournaments in SC2's short history. These are the leagues that we need to continue to follow as they not only NEED our support but appreciate and value it!
Backup players? Seriously? Who requires people to do that? That's an extremely foolish counterargument. This isn't Football where teams can afford to have an entire set of substandard, 2nd string jobbers hanging around on the sidelines collecting salaries while doing nothing for the sponsors.
I'm pretty sure Axslav and Strifecro were the only two people not at IPL(correct me if I'm wrong). The inflexibility of the admin in this case and the hasty w/o decision was a terrible outcome. It needs to be specifically admitted and acknowledged.
Otherwise, if you have a team and don't like this kind of behavior, vote with your lack of attendance. That's the best way to go.
Out of respect for your results as a Counterstrike player many moons ago I'll try to lay out my thoughts:
When you state ESEA is the premier clan league in North America this, in my eyes, is true for the half-life engine based games but most certainly not Starcraft II. Additionally, ESEAs market dominance in those games was centered around the funding from the premium PUG servers and their competition (which consisted of either volunteer organizations or very poorly run businesses that misunderstood business basics) shrinking to the point that they died out.
So basically ESEA is one of at best two major organizations still alive after the dust settled on the counter-strike scene. Additionally, its clear that ESEA is after approximately 10 years still running it's tournaments with a flawed system, poor administration (not my words), and a general lack of professionalism. The last point is immediately exemplified by the ESEA Starcraft II league commissioner engaging in a public argument with a team in their league which is providing negative publicity and pouring salt in an open wound instead of performing damage control.
In my eyes this is far from the characteristics that would describe a league has the audacity to call itself premier (unless of course you don't think your reputation or customer satisfaction are important in that classification). Furthermore, unlike Counter-Strike there is actually a sense of community and general desire to grow the influence of Starcraft II. Since the games release the community has accomplished this in a much more effective and friendly manner than anything I saw from Counter-Strike. One of the best direct effects of the way this community carries itself is that a substantial and constant flow of feedback is given to the various leagues so that their administration can wade through the feedback and improve. The most successful leagues to date with the largest prize pools have, generally, modified their organizations based on this feedback to much critical acclaim.
If ESEA wants to compete in this market they're going to have to accept the facts that when you do things that are detrimental to the community you're going to be called out on it and ultimately shunned if you don't take actions to prevent the problem in the future. Everyone makes mistakes and you cant be right 100% of the time, so just take your mistakes in stride and you'll be fine. That is if you want to truly be able to call yourselves the premier clan league in North America.
As a league admin I've come to realize that many of these top teams with sponsors overload their players with leagues and tournaments, and thats great for sc2. But if you have a consistent habit of always being late, never making match times and cant even report scores on time. Then either get more players or don't play in the league. EG was a prime example of that, and I was lenient enough to let them make up their matches and help them report their scores for which they could never report because they couldn't even get their players to send in their replays most of the time.
Hm, sounds to me like you don't like being called out on completely dropping the ball and doing a horrible job so now you're pulling up a bunch of unverifiable arguments to make EG look bad.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not an iNcontrol or EG fanboy, I don't even really like them very much at all, but from what I've seen here let me say that I have never and will never watch ESEA.
Turning the finals of a tourney into a walk over is quite honestly one of the worst things you could possible do to ruin an event, it doesn't even sound like you tried to make the finals happen.
Also, are you seriously suggesting backup players? Are you kidding me? Sounds like you aren't even able to relate to the situation whatsoever and should never be placed into a position of administration.
On October 13 2011 06:24 Insane wrote: If someone is asking for people to pay them money, then it is absolutely the right time to bring up how awfully they fucked you up in the past so other people are not similarly screwed over.
To be honest, after such a terrible fuck up, I think ESEA really needs to make a change in who is running the league. It's hard to imagine the league being anything other than a joke at this point without some drastic changes.
Meh. It is clear my point can't be demonstrated. People aren't seeing beyond what ESEA has done wrong.
Whether or not they have badly erred, I think the community and especially pro player reaction in SC2 is quickly becoming one of entitlement and aggressive bias. I don't like seeing somebody known and respected like Incontrol behaving like this, and it is even worse that he gets a free pass and full support for it - no matter whether he is right or wrong about the specific situation.
his team just got royally screwed out of a grand finals match. he has every right to be as upset as he wants. if you or anyone involved in ESEA (i really dont know if you are personally or not) can get past the fact that he's upset, and rightfully so, you'd realize there is a lot to learn from what he has said in this thread. But clearly getting past his anger is too much for some people...
On October 13 2011 09:39 machination wrote: Dear da bears and ESEA,
Out of respect for your results as a Counterstrike player many moons ago I'll try to lay out my thoughts:
When you state ESEA is the premier clan league in North America this, in my eyes, is true for the half-life engine based games but most certainly not Starcraft II. Additionally, ESEAs market dominance in those games was centered around the funding from the premium PUG servers and their competition (which consisted of either volunteer organizations or very poorly run businesses that misunderstood business basics) shrinking to the point that they died out.
So basically ESEA is one of at best two major organizations still alive after the dust settled on the counter-strike scene. Additionally, its clear that ESEA is after approximately 10 years still running it's tournaments with a flawed system, poor administration (not my words), and a general lack of professionalism. The last point is immediately exemplified by the ESEA Starcraft II league commissioner engaging in a public argument with a team in their league which is providing negative publicity and pouring salt in an open wound instead of performing damage control.
In my eyes this is far from the characteristics that would describe a league has the audacity to call itself premier (unless of course you don't think your reputation or customer satisfaction are important in that classification). Furthermore, unlike Counter-Strike there is actually a sense of community and general desire to grow the influence of Starcraft II. Since the games release the community has accomplished this in a much more effective and friendly manner than anything I saw from Counter-Strike. One of the best direct effects of the way this community carries itself is that a substantial and constant flow of feedback is given to the various leagues so that their administration can wade through the feedback and improve. The most successful leagues to date with the largest prize pools have, generally, modified their organizations based on this feedback to much critical acclaim.
If ESEA wants to compete in this market they're going to have to accept the facts that when you do things that are detrimental to the community you're going to be called out on it and ultimately shunned if you don't take actions to prevent the problem in the future. Everyone makes mistakes and you cant be right 100% of the time, so just take your mistakes in stride and you'll be fine. That is if you want to truly be able to call yourselves the premier clan league in North America.
You basically said absolutely nothing here. All you did was highlight the ESEA calling themselves a premier league. Tipped your hat at their CS leagues and then underlined very generally all the problems it has and reiterated how it didn't reflect what they claimed.
Would you mind giving the xSix side of the story then? If all sides just give out statements about the situation then there would be less confusion and speculation and more actual facts. For example, I would like to know if xSix insisted to play the finals after the ESEA told them that it would probably be a forfiet win and I don't want to accuse xSix nor the ESEA wrongly because I don't have the facts.
The problem with giving different sides to a story is that in almost every instance, no story will be 100% accurate or true. But, I will attempt to state what I know.
CheckSix waited just as long as EG to play the finals. When x6 was informed they were to be playing, we made sure we could field 4 players for the finals. It was time sensitive for us as well due to the fact that we had a player due to attend WCG Mexico the morning after the match was schedule many miles away. Throughout the day, Fujikura, da_bears, and EG personel were in contact with each other trying to schedule the match. During that time, CheckSix offered (several times) to play the match at a later date (the next day when xSixMaker would be at WCG Mexico), in which ESEA declined. EG did not make the deadline time to play the match, after xSix had been on all day and night trying to work it out. ESEA decided to stick with what they were claiming and enforce the deadline.
ESEA and CheckSix work together in many different fronts, including SC2. CheckSix had a CS:S team that was sent to 4 straight ESEA-Invite finals, and x6 just made the transition back to 1.6 with a team that competes in ESEA-Invite for 1.6. As much as this hurts CheckSix to see a final end this way, it was ESEA's ruling that we are attempting to respect.
Stating that, I would like to ask that CheckSix be left out of this debate. We had no influence over the ruling nor did we encourage the free win. I have the utmost respect for Scoots, Evil Geniuses, and ESEA. It's personally sad to see something like this happen to two such entities in NA eSports.
for future reference it would have been much better damage control to have been more understanding and sympathetic towards incontrol, rather than getting defensive and accusatory. it just made things devolve further and didnt make ESEA look any better.
1. ESEA made a decision that probably was not the optimal decision to make.
2. incontrol has handled this very unprofessionally
3. there are a lot of people on here that do not know what it takes to run these leagues.
Bashing ESEA and an admin that many of you do not know.. but who has been in the eSports scene longer then so many of us commenting in this thread... just makes zero sense. Letting them know some things they can do to improve on.. is one thing.. but the bashing is not helping. Running just a single tournament online is hard enough... but managing a league is another beast, then throw in having to deal with 'teams' that are of a 'pro' status and expect to not have to make too many concessions is like herding kittens.
I agree with most of you that ESEA may have made the wrong decision and a day extension (with their opponents approval) would have been ideal. Does this mean that everything that ESEA has contributed to eSports should just be shat on?
I hope both parties learn from this experience. I would also like to think that many of us in here would be willing to give ESEA a fair shake and offer suggestions to help them grow within the community.. or we are only hurting ourselves. eSports will not grow by the hands of a few entertainment organizations.. it will though by the many 'grass roots' organizations that continue to offer the base of gamers a place to compete.
On October 13 2011 10:44 csn_JohnClark wrote: wow.. 3 things are very evident here.
1. ESEA made a decision that probably was not the optimal decision to make.
2. incontrol has handled this very unprofessionally
3. there are a lot of people on here that do not know what it takes to run these leagues.
Bashing ESEA and an admin that many of you do not know.. but who has been in the eSports scene longer then so many of us commenting in this thread... just makes zero sense. Letting them know some things they can do to improve on.. is one thing.. but the bashing is not helping. Running just a single tournament online is hard enough... but managing a league is another beast, then throw in having to deal with 'teams' that are of a 'pro' status and expect to not have to make too many concessions is like herding kittens.
I agree with most of you that ESEA may have made the wrong decision and a day extension (with their opponents approval) would have been ideal. Does this mean that everything that ESEA has contributed to eSports should just be shat on?
I hope both parties learn from this experience. I would also like to think that many of us in here would be willing to give ESEA a fair shake and offer suggestions to help them grow within the community.. or we are only hurting ourselves. eSports will not grow by the hands of a few entertainment organizations.. it will though by the many 'grass roots' organizations that continue to offer the base of gamers a place to compete.
On October 13 2011 01:58 yawnoC wrote: Xeris post made me laugh. He contradicts himself a lot.
I now hope even more that ESEA becomes on of the biggest clan leagues out there just so fnatic gets shafted despite my love for there CS division.
Did you manage in the in ESEA SC2 League? No, I didn't think so. I did and it was fucking awfully run. The ESEA system is set up terribly and is more in favor of people who want FF wins more then anything.
I've read your post and you have some good advice. ESEA has been more than lenient towards EG, and other teams which is behind the scenes and do not wish to go over in a public forum. I felt disgusted when I had to make the decision to give x6 the ffw. In the public's eyes, it looks really really bad, but I made my decision.
Our main focus for ESEA is to just get the league out there and work on it from there. Yes there have been a lot of problems with score reporting, but its been fixed. I know there hasn't been much coverage for ESEA sc2, but that is going to change, we are focusing a lot more and hired some writers for season 3.
ESEA has coders that code everything from website, to replay score reporting as well as trying to implement a stat system. The site is becoming more sc2 friendly, that is something I do not control but I can assure you it is improving all the time.
As for ffing in playoffs, I do not like doing it, but when you play in a league, check your website msges and emails often. There have been many instances in season one and 2 where I could not get a hold of any manager or scheduler from a team. Most people don't even fill out their info on the website so there are no other means to contact them. FXO was one of those teams from the first season and its unfortunate for that.
As a league admin I've come to realize that many of these top teams with sponsors overload their players with leagues and tournaments, and thats great for sc2. But if you have a consistent habit of always being late, never making match times and cant even report scores on time. Then either get more players or don't play in the league. EG was a prime example of that, and I was lenient enough to let them make up their matches and help them report their scores for which they could never report because they couldn't even get their players to send in their replays most of the time.
LoL, how subtle....Team name dropping here and there because of your poor organisation...
What happened in FXO's case can be seen by this thread of emailz~
---------- Original message ---------- From: FXOUnstable Date: Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:18 PM Subject: Re: fxo vs vvv To: d13
Hey mate,
An issue arised today in our CW, the SEA server was patched a few hours earlier and it prevented 2 of our players from logging into the NA server which was completely out of our control, since for aussies the sea server and na server are on the same insall. This forced us to not play our match vs vvv.
could we arrange a reschedule please as there was nothing we could do about it. ---------- Original message ---------- From: d13 Date: Tue, May 10, 2011 at 12:23 PM Subject: Re: fxo vs vvv To: FXOUnstable
will you guys be able to play it tomorrow? ---------- Original message ---------- From: FXOUnstable Date: Mon, May 9, 2011 at 11:03 PM Subject: Re: fxo vs vvv To: d13
My players can be there tommorow, it depends on if blizzard let us play or not regarding the patch. I will see if i can get a workaround going, the patch only came out a few hours ago.
_______________________________________________________________________________ After this we were sent a message stating we were walked over.
Whilst it wasn't ESEA's fault that our players were unable to play, nor ours. You start name dropping and stating sponsored teams are the problem, and you are going to get in trouble. Its usually these teams who do the right thing. Not the opposite.
This was a team league game in the finals right? At least from what I understand. I have been in team leagues before and they are an order of magnitude harder to manage than individual 1v1 games. Something like NASL or IPL is simple in comparison.
This is because you will almost always have one or two players having other obligations and this bogs down a tournament immensely making it stretch out for weeks.
I remember doing some DotA tournaments and it is such an immense pain to have everybody on at the same time to play on a particular day where people can be spread out all over the country on different time zones.
When doing team leagues it is not strange to have back up players around. That is very normal.
Fuck.... I'm late to the party. Well I just read through this entire thread and hope to give some of my own insight. For those that don't know I am the team owner/manager for tQ and we were one of the 20 teams which participated in Season 2.
So moving past the fact that almost all of what Incontrol has said is accurate, and that if the decision had been in Check6's hands to get the finals match played, it would have been played... I guess I will try my best to touch on some much needed and potential improvements for future seasons of the league.
1. $5,000 is a lot of money. Behind EG:MC, it is the largest prize pool summation in all of NA SC2 Team Leagues. As previously stated, if you're going to put this much funding into the prize pool, you should consider spending a tad more in order to market the league appropriately. Moreover, you might want to take this large prize pool and consider inviting teams, or making the season a bit more exclusive.
2. Exclusivity (Making real divisions) - By opening the league up to anyone and everyone makes it very difficult for teams like EG (true professional teams), teams like tQ (pro-amatuer teams), and random ass no name teams that started a week ago and won't last but another to get matches played properly. Moreover it presents a lot of problems with seeding into the playoffs. If you're only going to take the top 8 teams into playoffs and seed them based on their performance, you must make the seeding equal between those said teams. At the end of the season, each team played a total of 16 matches, however not every team played each other. Some teams played each other twice, some teams got extra FFWs (from teams that were forfeiting matches from week 1 onward), and some teams got little to no FFWs. This is a problem.
By making the league exclusive - consider sending out invites (don't bother doing this until you have reliable casting/coverage of the season, otherwise the big guns aren't going to care much). In sending out invites, you may consider establishing two divisions. Invite, professional, code S (whatever you want to call it), and the open division (teams that want to play for fun/experience). Keep the prize pool what it is for the invite division, keep the playing field level and even - all professional teams with similar schedules/lifestyles/understandings/etc. Make the open division free with a small or no prize pool at all. This will help avoid getting teams on board with no management, no real players, FFW's, and hopefully walkover finals. Not to mention an ass ton of delays and unplayed matches.
3. Season/Match Format - The current match format is quite flawed for SC2. Because there are 3 race options (4 counting random) available in SC2, and lineups/races must be posted PRIOR to a match there can often be a lot of mirror match ups and generally unwanted MU's from match to match. If you were to make an invite division, you could cap it at say 8 teams. In 8 weeks, with two matches per week you could have 16 matches played total, each team plays each other twice. The first time they play, Team A is at home - the would have to set their roster/lineup first which is then SHOWN to the opposing team (yes, giving them an advantage). The second time they play, Team B is at home, giving the advantage to Team A. This will allow the match format to remain the same (4 1v1 BO3 - first to 3 wins), but will make lineups a lot less random. Obviously it adds a bit more strategy to your lineups, and tests each teams roster twice as much each season before playoffs begin.
4. Scheduling system - Granted the idea behind this system (and even it's current implementation) is quite a ways ahead of most other 'backyard' NA leagues, it is still a huge pain in the ass to deal with. In my opinion the times allowed for scheduling matches are far too constricting. Furthermore the fact that you have to have a roster submitted before you can attempt to schedule a day/time to play is absurd. For almost every team (even the EG's, perhaps even especially the EG's) it is impossible to know what players are going to available for a match if you don't know the day/time of the match. I'm getting a bit tired, so hopefully that makes sense. So please, get rid of the required roster set in order to schedule a match day/time. Also consider revising the times to choose from. Almost every single one of our matches in season 2 I scheduled outside of ESEA through PMs, email, or battle.net.
5. MAP POOL - The season 2 pool was pretty awful. It doesn't hurt to get player/team insight at the start, midpoint, end (before playoffs) of the ongoing season to make sure that awesome new maps are being included, and awful old maps are being discarded.
In closing I will say that although I think Da_Bears probably couldn't have handled this thread much worse, for being the only person running the SC2 division for the entire season, he was fairly on top of any questions or help that I needed on my end. However in the grand scheme of things.... I should expect as much when there were never any admins present for matches or any real live support.
There are a plenty more small things that could be added to this list, but those are some of the major problems (in addition to those previously mentioned by others) i foresee continuing to holding this league back.
Let me just say that, being a part of ESEA for its two seasons, and playing in many of the "backyard leagues". ESEA, even though costing money, was a million times better than the "backyard leagues" which often have favouritism, lopsided seeding because of favouritism, and a lack of stable administrative help, often left clamouring over each other. Sure ESEA admins didnt show up to matches, but a support ticket, or PM to db always solved any issue we may have had.
ESEA could really use some help on the administrative side of things, that is one thing that is clear, but the amount of competition, and the opportunity they give is unparalled in other team leagues in North America.
My opinion on the games is that they should be played, however thats because I still view this as a hobby, where we play video games for fun, x6, EG and ESEA all see this as a source of income, so i can see where they draw the line on expectations.
On October 13 2011 06:54 dbizzle wrote: If anyone is going to MLG orlando, I will be working for astro headset company. Please stop by the booth, ask for Erik and say hi and you can talk to me about sc2, the league or whatever.
Can't wait to visit the astro headset booth. I'm going to be like: "so i herd u r killing e-sports liek mudkips"
Lmfao at incontrol bashing ESEA brainlessly just because EG got unlucky and was unable to make the finals date. ESEA is a huge league and is literally the only thing keeping NA CS alive, so to call it a second rate league only further proves your ignorance and lack of knowledge. iNcontrol i think you have some kind of ego running by the way you're typing but I think you need to sit back and realize you still got 2nd place and you should just be happy they didn't disqualify your earnings completely, why not just give positive feedback to help improve the league rather than just bashing it? Oh yeah because you got a w.o. finals.. well how about you take the proper steps to make sure that doesn't happen? You look like a complete loser by your posts bashing ESEA when the league has a 1000 fold bigger effect on e-sports than you do, so how about YOU get off YOUR high horse and stfu, accept the fact that you got unlucky and give positive feedback rather than crying like a 400 pound baby back bitch.
On October 14 2011 04:59 veK1g wrote: Lmfao at incontrol bashing ESEA brainlessly just because EG got unlucky and was unable to make the finals date. ESEA is a huge league and is literally the only thing keeping NA CS alive, so to call it a second rate league only further proves your ignorance and lack of knowledge. iNcontrol i think you have some kind of ego running by the way you're typing but I think you need to sit back and realize you still got 2nd place and you should just be happy they didn't disqualify your earnings completely, why not just give positive feedback to help improve the league rather than just bashing it? Oh yeah because you got a w.o. finals.. well how about you take the proper steps to make sure that doesn't happen? You look like a complete loser by your posts bashing ESEA when the league has a 1000 fold bigger effect on e-sports than you do, so how about YOU get off YOUR high horse and stfu, accept the fact that you got unlucky and give positive feedback rather than crying like a 400 pound baby back bitch.
"Hi my names veK1g and I didn't read the thread at all, herp derp"
On October 14 2011 04:59 veK1g wrote: Oh yeah because you got a w.o. finals.. well how about you take the proper steps to make sure that doesn't happen?
taking the proper steps to make sure it doesn't happen? you mean, like, skipping IPL?
On October 13 2011 13:55 Holcan wrote: Let me just say that, being a part of ESEA for its two seasons, and playing in many of the "backyard leagues". ESEA, even though costing money, was a million times better than the "backyard leagues" which often have favouritism, lopsided seeding because of favouritism, and a lack of stable administrative help, often left clamouring over each other. Sure ESEA admins didnt show up to matches, but a support ticket, or PM to db always solved any issue we may have had.
ESEA could really use some help on the administrative side of things, that is one thing that is clear, but the amount of competition, and the opportunity they give is unparalled in other team leagues in North America.
My opinion on the games is that they should be played, however thats because I still view this as a hobby, where we play video games for fun, x6, EG and ESEA all see this as a source of income, so i can see where they draw the line on expectations.
Although I tend to agree that most 'backyard' leagues do have their fair share of nepotism, I don't think there is that much of an overwhelming issue of seeding problems within your average league division. I do agree if you're talking about which certain teams get seeded into certain divisions based on their general background, connections, etc.
However I think that because ESEA charges an entree fee, we -SHOULD- expect more from them. If ESEA is generating $80,000 + a year in prizes for CS, CSS, and TF2, and $5,000 every few months for SC2 then there is obviously room to step up the production, coverage, administration, etc. At the end of the day we're paying for a product through ESEA and as customers we want to see that we are getting our money's worth.
I will reinforce that all things considered I think Da_Bears did a solid job as the single league admin for season 2. With that I also think ESEA should be hiring a few more people to help split the load and offer more in terms of administration to the teams and the players. If I'm paying for my team to compete in ESEA, I expect it to be vastly superior to what the 'backyard' leagues have to offer, not marginally better.
I think you get the idea but I will also add that one could even argue the nepotism you see as a major issue in backyard leagues is perhaps equally as large of an issue as the lack of exclusivity of ESEA. Out of 20 teams that started season 2, only 14 actually finished all of their games. As I said in my previous post this has a poor effect on seeding going into the playoffs. My point is we shouldn't be even talking about the trade offs between ESEA and the other leagues. If they are going to charge for their product, they damn well better produce a great one. And you would think a league with so much monetary backing and years of experience we wouldn't have to be commenting on the mediocrity of the 'brand new' SC2 division after 2 seasons.
On October 14 2011 07:00 iNcontroL wrote: Loving the random new accounts coming in to bash lol
they're all from the 1.6 community
It's not surprising. I've been part of the CS community forever and there has always been a really shitty attitude from a great number of players; it's the exact opposite of TeamLiquid, sadly.
CAL was infested with terrible admins and decisions, not to mention the corruption. I'm not saying ESEA is necessarily like this because I simply have no experience with that league. It would not be surprising though based on the history of counter-strike players and admins. New players come in all the time of course, but being young and impressionable, many simply are dragged down to the level of the older players who pointlessly shit talk non-stop, etc.
This does NOT speak for the whole community, there are certainly hard-working admins and great players who have come out of CS.
On topic, I hope that you're able to get ESEA's SC2 division on the right track, da_bears, things will always go wrong and you can't control that. But what you can control is your response and reform methods, and what you need to do is dedicate yourself to pleasing the community and the players no matter the cost. Take care of your customers, that is the number one priority of any business. Growth and expansion will follow if the SC2 industry continues to grow as well.
On October 14 2011 08:46 DrTJEckleburg wrote: It's not surprising. I've been part of the CS community forever and there has always been a really shitty attitude from a great number of players; it's the exact opposite of TeamLiquid, sadly.
You are either trolling or oblivious. There has been plenty of bashing of ESEA simply because incontrol did in this thread. The only difference I have seen between here and the CS scene is people in CS don't delude themselves by saying they are all well-mannered and behaved.
A lot of us are defending ESEA because we KNOW they are a great league. You had a shitty experience with them. We get that. The thing is they will get much much better with time. They are new to the SC2 scene, but have done so much for the ESPORTS community in NA. So many great managers, players, and owners have come out of the 1.6 community. We will obviously get our leagues back when someone is talking so much shit about it.
A lot of us are defending ESEA because we KNOW they are a great league. You had a shitty experience with them. We get that. The thing is they will get much much better with time. They are new to the SC2 scene, but have done so much for the ESPORTS community in NA. So many great managers, players, and owners have come out of the 1.6 community. We will obviously get our leagues back when someone is talking so much shit about it.
Everyone understands that, and perhaps the 1.6 and CSS player's input and defense would actually be needed if InControl was bashing ESEA for it's CS and FPS leagues. However he's not. He's bringing up irrefutable points about MAJOR shortcomings within ESEA's SC2 league. You can call me an InControl band wagoner if you'd like but the only reason this thread has any attention whatsoever is because a well known personality like himself is speaking out. Moreover he's actually dead on with his criticisms of the league. Was his tone a bit out of line, sure, get over it. This is not a CS forum, we don't care how great ESEA was for CS and CSS. We care about SC2, and right now the league is extremely lacking.
We can talk all day about how things will improve over time, but as previously mentioned.... season 2 (9) should be considered a failure compared to season 1 (8) with a walk over finals. Not to mention outside of less unplayed matches than season 1, I would say Season 2 had no other major improvements.
Da_Bears sent out a PM to the team leaders about 2 weeks ago asking for a meeting with everyone to get suggestions on improvements for season 3. That is really awesome and I hope he still goes through with the meeting, but it still seems like things are always happening after they should be.
The truth is ESEA is the only real legitimate SC2 league in operation right now for the North Americas (obviously outside of Professional invite only leagues). As we all know NA is quite lacking which is why we are being critical. The league should be more, and we want to see it become more. InControl may be super critical and harsh, but in the end if it really helps make a difference and get the rest of us to also voice our opinions for change then everyone wins. I sure hope that happens because a real team league would do wonders for NA SC2.
Wow! How did I miss this thread! This has been the weekly dose of esports drama I have been missing!
I had not even heard of the ESEA clan league until today and now theres statements from several managers of high profile teams that say that this league was ran terribly and yet the admin calls out the other leagues as backyard run tournaments. Wonder how many will return for the next season?
It must be a pretty uncomfortable position to be in when an organisation that makes money from running leagues realises that the teams that play in their tournaments can do their job better. EGMC, GCPL, FXOPENIS ... heh.
A lot of us are defending ESEA because we KNOW they are a great league. You had a shitty experience with them. We get that. The thing is they will get much much better with time. They are new to the SC2 scene, but have done so much for the ESPORTS community in NA. So many great managers, players, and owners have come out of the 1.6 community. We will obviously get our leagues back when someone is talking so much shit about it.
A lot of us are defending ESEA because we KNOW they are a great league. You had a shitty experience with them. We get that. The thing is they will get much much better with time. They are new to the SC2 scene, but have done so much for the ESPORTS community in NA. So many great managers, players, and owners have come out of the 1.6 community. We will obviously get our leagues back when someone is talking so much shit about it.
I want to apologize for the way things have gone between myself, the sc2 community, team EG and incontrol. I ve said a lot of things I shouldn't have said, made some poor admining decisions and I did not mean any disrespect to EGMC or any other sc2 leagues. This whole thread and how the way esea league has turned out was a huge eye opener on what it takes to run a league and in dealing with people. I hope to minimalize my mistakes in the future and look past this with an open mind and letting this be an example of not what to do. I do thank all of you for your advice and input on the matter and I hope this will not leave a big impression on what I want to do and accomplish for years to come in esports.
On October 17 2011 16:16 Synwave wrote: I just meandered into this thread, who is ESEA and how have they had three seasons that Ive never heard of?
ESEA is by far the biggest online esports league in the US. They've been doing counterstrike 1.6, counterstrike source, and team fortress 2 for years. Just recently they've jumped into the sc2 scene but because their online client doesn't transition well to sc2 it hasn't been the biggest hit. Whoever in this thread that has said ESEA isn't a big deal and is small obviously has never played cs1.6 and css. They have over 10,000 subscribers that pay a monthly fee and people also have to pay an amount to enter tournaments. The big deal with their client is that it is a program that runs outside of the game and automatically organizes a 5v5 exhibition game with other members. This obviously doesn't transition well to a game like sc2 and that's why it hasn't been the biggest hit for the sc2 community.
On October 17 2011 16:16 Synwave wrote: I just meandered into this thread, who is ESEA and how have they had three seasons that Ive never heard of?
ESEA is by far the biggest online esports league in the US. They've been doing counterstrike 1.6, counterstrike source, and team fortress 2 for years. Just recently they've jumped into the sc2 scene but because their online client doesn't transition well to sc2 it hasn't been the biggest hit. Whoever in this thread that has said ESEA isn't a big deal and is small obviously has never played cs1.6 and css. They have over 10,000 subscribers that pay a monthly fee and people also have to pay an amount to enter tournaments. The big deal with their client is that it is a program that runs outside of the game and automatically organizes a 5v5 exhibition game with other members. This obviously doesn't transition well to a game like sc2 and that's why it hasn't been the biggest hit for the sc2 community.
Biased much?
Whoever in this thread that say ESEA isn't a big deal is 100% correct since we're posting in a SC-focused forum and we don't care about how ESEA acts in other scenes if it can't even advertise SC2 properly. I don't see how the client affects the fail of ESEA to advertise anything going on with the league for SC2...
Im sorry I guess between all the MLG action and the fact that every CS player I know (including some coders and server admins) has never mentioned this Im out of the loop. I guess I will have to google it or something.
Hello everybody, MLG weekend was a blast and congrats to + Show Spoiler +
Huk
for winning!!! I talked to incontrol and cleared up any bad blood between us. I hope you guys enjoyed the starcraft matches as much as I.
Sign ups for season10 is almost over, I would like for whoever wanted to participate to sign up with 4 paid members to secure your spot. Before the season starts, I will post up the map list and other things to come in the new season. You can sign up and keep checking at www.eseanews.com for updated features.
holy shit I just discovered this thread lolol. Just took the last 40 mins reading through all 12 pages. Haha. Never heard of ESEA before and I watch ALOT of sc. I thought they were some SEA server league or something so I was never interested. It was so funny how the 1.6 peeps started raiding the sc forums. Well, if teams like EG, Liquid, FXO,etc doesn't participate I won't watch for sure. If not, then I'll probably watch.
I've been a CS:S player for years now at high levels and ESEA has been the best run league. Da bears has always been an important figure in the 1.6 and CSS community so I have no doubt he knows how to run a good league for SC2. I recently purchased SC2 and have a team readied up for this season. I encourage everyone that wants a well run league to join it.
My organization Area51 is looking to sponsor a professional to play SC2 for us. If you're interested please pm me your credentials. Gl to all who participate
After reading many of the arguments going back and forth between Geoff and what seems to be an ESEA admin, I am going to have to agree with Geoff on this one. As the managers for Quantic Gaming's SC2 Division heading up ESEA involvement, I was very displeased with the website issues and delays from both Season 8 and Season 9. Because of this we opted not to join in on Season 10. I think ESEA has the potential to be a Premier Clan League for SC2, but for some reason have fallen short the past two seasons.
To be constructive I suggest the following. A better less annoying way to report matches that allows for FFWs to be reported within the Match Reporting System. Something more along the lines of what CEVO used for their only Starcraft 2 Clan League so long ago. It was very fast and easy to upload replays and report matches.
Also, I suggest a better method to actually speak with an ESEA admin besides email tag using ESEA website. Maybe some kind of mumble or ventrilo server? The only thing I have been able to find is the mIRC client to ESEA support which is very confusing.
Also, the maps need to be updated as they were practically the same from Season 8 and are behind in the times.
Another annoying item was how scheduling matches with opposing teams was a nightmare because the email system set up through ESEA website was broken. I would get repeat and redundant emails about scheduling a match offer even after I scheduled it. I would also get an email warning me I had 24 hours to make an offer and the one minute later an email saying the time limit was hit and the match was automatically scheduled.
Personally if ESEA really wants to improve the experience they need to schedule something with all the team managers and actually follow up to discuss how to improve the clan league. I know da bears sent out an invite regarding meeting up and discussing this at MLG Orlando but I heard nothing after the initial offer.
My only positive experience was working with da bears over ESEA email and time responding in a timely manner to support all the above needs on a day to day basis. Thanks bro.
Most of the issues can be solved with some serious site database reconstructing and actually building a solid/innovative and quick interface to allow managers/schedulers the ability to take care of reporting/scheduling/rules etc all within 5 mins or less. (Please improve the replay parser! And don't make it one at a time uploads!)
I hope this post was seen as constructive and informative. I dont want to come off like I am bashing ESEA. If you would like to speak more about this please PM me. Thanks!
One last thing, the league needs much more exposure/marketing. I loved the casting the clan match of the week from djWheat but for some reason that stopped. Things like that should be happening atleast once or twice a week.
And like tQWinter stated earlier, there needs to be more divisions for teams to compete and actually play other teams within the same skill level. There should be try outs for different leagues and such.
Glad to see da bears and incontrol settle things. ESEA has been the main source of esports competition for awhile now. Please don't just them based on a new game.
On October 19 2011 12:21 GunPaladin wrote: Glad to see da bears and incontrol settle things. ESEA has been the main source of esports competition for awhile now. Please don't just them based on a new game.
da bears apologized and is committed to improving ESEA. I think only positive things can come out of this incident - ESEA will just get better. And kudos to da bears for having the guts to apologize and admit his mistakes. He will get better! We'll see the results this season And da bears, just know that if you ever need help, there are tons of people willing to help for free.
I have played in ESEA for quite a while for counter strike source. It is the only league left for source and 1.6 in NA (I guess you can count cevo..lewls) and to be perfectly honest, it runs smooth. The match making works flawlessly, they have stat tracking for matches/pugs, instant hltv/STVs, down-loadable demos after the match, and good coverage. If you play either game then ESEA is quite good and reputable (seriously..80k twice a year give or take).
The BAD about esea. They have some really immature admins who are active community members. ESEA likes to hire their own friends and "known" long time community members. This is bad in a way because these admins can have their feelings hurt and decide to ban you from a PAID service. What does the owner do? Nothing. Oh, not to mention the owner "lpkane" is an 8 year old in a 27 year old body. If you have/had the pleasure of reading his comments on the ESEA forums (must have premium) you will see how much of a douche bag he is. He constantly bans people without reason, tells people to fuck off, calls people names, and constantly states he's the BOSS and can do what he wants. Oh and when people tell him to grow up and act professional he tells you to "make your own league and take me out of business". I find it disturbing that a guy like that who actually runs a good league has such a poor attitude. Makes you wonder if he's in it just for the money..because at 7.95 a month per person he makes a good profit (not to mention advertising, sponsorships, etc as addition income).
Next order of topic is SC2. Their league is pretty terrible for SC2. Their website isn't DESIGNED for sc2. All the "features" they have were developed for CS. Until they redesign part of their website to fit SC2 in it will not work properly. They lack experienced admins and are undermanned. I think they can become an outstanding league for SC2 in due time but until then you'll get a lot of suck (and you are paying for that suck).
Lastly I want to address the topic of incontrol. I always liked watching you play (even though you lose 95% of the time) and I think you are fairly good in front of a camera. However, you are very unprofessional for an "icon" in SC2 and as a member of a pro gaming team. I also think you try too hard to sound intelligent on the forums which makes you look like an immature egocentric. You need to practice on keeping silent. It helps in many ways.
We noticed a schedule seems to be up that looks like this:
Four Kings Starcraft II Asso... Tal'darim Altar LE - - Nov 1, 8:00pm CheckSix Gaming-SC2 Four Kings Tal'darim Altar LE - - Nov 3, 8:00pm Its GoSu eSports Four Kings Crossfire SE - - Nov 8, 9:00pm Four Kings Nightmares Crossfire SE - - Nov 10, 9:00pm Four Kings vVv GamingSC2 MLG Metalopolis - - Nov 15, 9:00pm Scampering CATS Four Kings MLG Metalopolis - - Nov 17, 9:00pm
Does this mean we can't schedule our own matches, and are expected to play at the designated times only? This is our first season, so I apologize if I misunderstood, but I thought there was scheduling options available. Please clarify!
On October 22 2011 23:31 4Kings wrote: We noticed a schedule seems to be up that looks like this:
Four Kings Starcraft II Asso... Tal'darim Altar LE - - Nov 1, 8:00pm CheckSix Gaming-SC2 Four Kings Tal'darim Altar LE - - Nov 3, 8:00pm Its GoSu eSports Four Kings Crossfire SE - - Nov 8, 9:00pm Four Kings Nightmares Crossfire SE - - Nov 10, 9:00pm Four Kings vVv GamingSC2 MLG Metalopolis - - Nov 15, 9:00pm Scampering CATS Four Kings MLG Metalopolis - - Nov 17, 9:00pm
Does this mean we can't schedule our own matches, and are expected to play at the designated times only? This is our first season, so I apologize if I misunderstood, but I thought there was scheduling options available. Please clarify!
That's just a preview of your matches in the weeks to come. On the right is the default time for your matches, a week before that time, you'll be able to schedule them.
On October 22 2011 23:31 4Kings wrote: We noticed a schedule seems to be up that looks like this:
Four Kings Starcraft II Asso... Tal'darim Altar LE - - Nov 1, 8:00pm CheckSix Gaming-SC2 Four Kings Tal'darim Altar LE - - Nov 3, 8:00pm Its GoSu eSports Four Kings Crossfire SE - - Nov 8, 9:00pm Four Kings Nightmares Crossfire SE - - Nov 10, 9:00pm Four Kings vVv GamingSC2 MLG Metalopolis - - Nov 15, 9:00pm Scampering CATS Four Kings MLG Metalopolis - - Nov 17, 9:00pm
Does this mean we can't schedule our own matches, and are expected to play at the designated times only? This is our first season, so I apologize if I misunderstood, but I thought there was scheduling options available. Please clarify!
That's just a preview of your matches in the weeks to come. On the right is the default time for your matches, a week before that time, you'll be able to schedule them.
Are there only 6 teams participating this season??
I imagine if e sports would get REALLY big, then people like Incontrol and dbizzle would be forced to step down from their positions because of there iapropriate behaviour.
Feel very late to the party only just seeing this now.. though I guess that is somewhat telling of the coverage ESEA has gotten.
Seems like extremely poor handling of the situation on all sides though, I guess we can only hope that the next season runs more smoothly.
On a sidenote, hoping it wasn't dBizzle who edited all of his own posts to remove the content, even a newbie to the interweb knows that once you put something online it's there for good.
If I was in charge of check6 I'd offer to just play a clanwar and give/keep the difference between 1st/2nd depending on the outcome, I mean if that's what both teams wanted to do anyway, that way you send the "fu" to esea for managing a situation pretty poorly a still have the entertaining finals that you wanted to give the community and no doubt put time and effort in preparing for.
As the person in charge of chaosfactors, [cf] from the bw days, we had participated in the first two esea sc2 seasons, and both of them were extremely poorly handled. We had situations where we had scheduled matches, our opponents wouldn't show up, and then would report us for losses when we didn't show up to their unilaterally rescheduled times. In addition the website kept breaking and they had an issue with timezone conversions too. After two seasons, I asked some of our players for their opinions and they all said something to the extent that it was poorly run and a waste of time.
I give my statement as a warning, and add that I had hoped esea would straighten things out and that we would potentially return to the league, but from what I see here, things continue to be poorly done.
Also, I feel that incontrol, while not always the most likable character, is completely correct in this regard, and that any attacks on his original statement are unnecessary.
When i started a team for s1 it was very poorly run as well, our final match that we won 3-2 got changed to a FFL and it stopped us from making playoffs...no reply still on why it happened
Real shame, i use Esea for Css and its great...guess sc2 just isnt their thing
At least Incontrol quoted dbizzle for posterity. He seems to have deleted all his posts in the thread in order to try and save face. I know Incontrol already hugged it out with these guys but the organizers should take a serious look at all the criticisms in this thread. Maybe when it was only Incontrol lambasting the organization and how it was run you could maybe possibly could have let that slip. But then one team joins in, then another, then another.... When managers, teams, players and other event organizers start to lay some truth down you'd better listen. They obviously made the wrong decision to give x6 the walkover. In the end it hurt the tournament itself and the tournament's reputation. The best way to move forward would to just own up to it, apologize and address the problems via MLG style.
Reading the responses from dbizzle in incontrol's quotes makes me laugh.
How could an organization be so unbelievably unprofessional while at the same time doing seemingly everything in their power to ruin their own profit potential?
ESEA was a joke in cs too until every other league died, and then everyone was forced to play there due to lack of other options. Looks like perhaps their heads got swollen mistakenly as a result...
On October 28 2011 21:02 Koshi wrote: I wonder why dbizzle and iNcontroL can't PM each other? Why make it a public spectacle? The only gain is to humiliate the other guy in public...
i think what orb brings up is weirder. why bother deleting your posts when i can just scroll down 2 posts and read exactly what you wrote?
What makes me laught is some guys talking about professionalim in e-sports!!
Are you guys ok? or are you completly crazy?
What about NORMAL SPORTS players taking guns to locker rooms, having brawls, getting caught drunk and driving, caught with drugs, fighs, rapes and don't forget about doping and match fixing scandals.. this happens in NBA, MLB, NHL, european football!! Scolari who was a coach for the portuguese football team hit another player during a game, our football players some of them world class football players fought with players and even referees in a WORLD CUP(the second biggest even on TV after the olympics)!! CRISTIANO FUCKING RONALDO a big world football star when was playing for man united arguably one of the worlds top5 teams, came into my teams stadium (Benfica, a team that he hates because he is from another portuguese team) and he lost.. when he was subbed he thru us the finger!! That guy makes 12 million euros yearly.. Is that professional? Man united not only didn't punish him, they didn't even talked about it..
This is e-sports it's not a normal sport so people behave like they choose and it's up to the team owners to accept or not that type of behaviour..
do you understand that this is a discussion a forum? That's what forums are for...
Lack of professionalism is having a league with games that weren't played including the most important game of them all.. the final!
In my point of view incontrol was unprofessional, but he is also right to be pissed and maybe this is what they need to get their shit together..
There are always two sides to every single story, but I cannot legitimately endorse a w/o final. Period. And I'm rather shocked that some people can say it's perfectly fine. Obviously they're just flooding in from the ESEA site to share their opinions and defend their reputation with honor and Cheetos, but it just seems to completely violate months of actual work. Other tournaments have been more than reasonable to reschedule final matches and the community has been more than accepting. The reddit tournament from awhile back is a prime example of how to do it right, and in many ways the tournament benefited from it. Furthermore add on the alleged fact that a team had to fuck around for over a week waiting for other people to actually finish their matches, but then an act of God/Buddha/Shiva occurs and they get, what is in my opinion, the shaft.
Look, more tournaments are fine, and I think everyone can agree on that. But it seems to me that you tried running before you knew how to walk. I don't care what ESEA has done before in CS 1.6, CS:S, or TF2. This is Starcraft 2. It is not a shooter. It seems to me that you saw how huge SC2 is and you figured, "Fuck. Look at them and all that attention. We need to get some of that." It seems to me that you're jumping aboard the bandwagon.
If you want constructive criticism I'll be perfectly frank with you. You need to optimize your section dedicated to the game. You need to broadcast the games. You need to have more serious community outreach. You need to work with teams and managers more. You need to have a schedule that is firm, but fair and somewhat flexible that gives leniency but people can't completely exploit for their advantage. And you need to reinstall faith into your brand, because let's be honest most major teams probably saw this grand fuck up, or experienced it, and they'll steer clear. The big teams are where the big players are and the big players are where the money is. This stuff doesn't change you will become a second rate so called "backyard" league that might get some decent players in it, but will always fall short. You have a lot of competition and if you don't deliver you WILL get swept under the rug. Plain and simple.
I dunno why you can't have more than 3 players join a team in a week, and why matches between NA teams are being played extremely early on a thursday when most people can't play...
funny how most of the pro players want to make eSports more recognizable around the world but incontrol wanting to delay finals one day is 'ok'. really disappointing
EPT
the good ole days
) but having read the posts from both sides, it does sound like the ESEA admins were in the wrong here.
