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On October 12 2011 23:37 VPGeneralHans wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote:
should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~
i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals.
x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship.
ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion. Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion.
Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money.
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On October 13 2011 06:10 Insane wrote:
Who cares what Incontrol's status is? What matters is that he's right, not whether he has a lot of posts or says things on camera.
The league made a joke of a decision, and is being called on it. Every single one of your posts in this thread is a personal attack on Incontrol, rather than actually addressing the fact that the league fucked up big time and is now trying to sweep it under the rug. Merely saying "they're working on it and it's new and blah blah" isn't a valid excuse for a pay to enter league. Why would you shoot the messenger?
The problem I have is that Incontrol turned the discussion from anything that could be any way positive to him using his community influence to be aggressive and rude and behave inappropriately while still garnering support.
The last season of ESEA ended in an awful way, there's a discussion to be had there about how to stop that from happening again and what needs to take place for ESEA to have a productive SC2 division.
The answer to that isn't for pro players to bash the league and insult admins, while trying to accuse the admin of insulting the SC2 community. Trying to defend your league =/= attacking a community.
It just bewilders me that ESEA is getting attacked so viciously. That's not how you fix anything. And yet somehow whenever I or somebody else brings that up, it is us making personal attacks against Incontrol.
No. No. No. This isn't how SC2 works, this isn't how mature discussions work. You don't fix something or work with somebody to resolve a problem by beating them down and behaving inappropriately because it's your home turf.
This thread isn't about the problems Incontrol had with the Season 2 finals. It's about Season 3. At least it should be. Instead I'm reading through post after post of Incontrol cursing out ESEA admins while complaining about he and EG are being victimized.
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United States4991 Posts
If someone is asking for people to pay them money, then it is absolutely the right time to bring up how awfully they fucked you up in the past so other people are not similarly screwed over.
To be honest, after such a terrible fuck up, I think ESEA really needs to make a change in who is running the league. It's hard to imagine the league being anything other than a joke at this point without some drastic changes.
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Who cares really. Don't be dramaing it up now.
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On October 13 2011 06:24 Insane wrote:
If someone is asking for people to pay them money, then it is absolutely the right time to bring up how awfully they fucked you up in the past so other people are not similarly screwed over.
To be honest, after such a terrible fuck up, I think ESEA really needs to make a change in who is running the league. It's hard to imagine the league being anything other than a joke at this point without some drastic changes.
Meh. It is clear my point can't be demonstrated. People aren't seeing beyond what ESEA has done wrong.
Whether or not they have badly erred, I think the community and especially pro player reaction in SC2 is quickly becoming one of entitlement and aggressive bias. I don't like seeing somebody known and respected like Incontrol behaving like this, and it is even worse that he gets a free pass and full support for it - no matter whether he is right or wrong about the specific situation.
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On October 13 2011 06:19 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 23:37 VPGeneralHans wrote:On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote:
should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~
i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals.
x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship.
ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion. Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion. Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money.
Don't instigate about what you don't know o.o
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On October 13 2011 06:24 Insane wrote:
If someone is asking for people to pay them money, then it is absolutely the right time to bring up how awfully they fucked you up in the past so other people are not similarly screwed over.
To be honest, after such a terrible fuck up, I think ESEA really needs to make a change in who is running the league. It's hard to imagine the league being anything other than a joke at this point without some drastic changes.
How dare they collect an amount of money from the players equal to less than one fifth of what they were giving back to the players!
Edit: ~$960 collected; $5000 payed out to the players
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On October 13 2011 06:38 VPGeneralHans wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 06:19 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:On October 12 2011 23:37 VPGeneralHans wrote:On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote:
should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~
i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals.
x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship.
ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion. Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion. Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money. Don't instigate about what you don't know o.o
Kinda my point, about something completely different than what I was making it about. For some reason, all the SC2 community wants to do is talk shit about others and say how much better they are than everybody else.
I don't get it. Things are going so well for SC2. Why is the attitude one of, "I'm getting fucked over, so fuck you!".
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all drama aside,
holy shit, dbizzle is da bears?
omgomgomgomgfanboyoverloadomgomgomgomgomg
the 'golden' era of esports is flooding back to me.
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Israel2209 Posts
On October 13 2011 06:20 hunger wrote:
This thread isn't about the problems Incontrol had with the Season 2 finals. It's about Season 3. At least it should be. Instead I'm reading through post after post of Incontrol cursing out ESEA admins while complaining about he and EG are being victimized.
Did I miss the thread where ESEA announced the Season 2 finals date and stream? perhaps a LR thread? How about the thread they made to explain the walkover issue in the finals?
I only see threads announcing when they open the sign up for their league, conveniently the time where they are looking for people to pay them.
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I've used ESEA for cs 1.6 since it first came online, before they had an anti-cheat client. They provided the cs community(and other fps' games) what no other league could offer: anti-cheat, servers, significant prize pools, coverage etc. Their cs league wasn't always amazing and it definitely took them some time to get it right. However, they did get it right-- REALLY right. The cs league is fantastic, and is single-handedly keeping the NA community alive.
If this is your first encounter with the organization please try reserve yourself from taking a knee-jerk reaction and instantly shit-listing them because of iNcontrol. Instead, try to support ESEA and accept they won't instantly be perfect because they are a company that is rooted in fps games(co-founder was manager of Team3D) but will also listen to the community and try to make the right changes.
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If anyone is going to MLG orlando, I will be working for astro headset company. Please stop by the booth, ask for Erik and say hi and you can talk to me about sc2, the league or whatever.
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On October 13 2011 06:41 hunger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 06:38 VPGeneralHans wrote:On October 13 2011 06:19 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:On October 12 2011 23:37 VPGeneralHans wrote:On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote:
should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~
i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals.
x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship.
ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion. Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion. Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money. Don't instigate about what you don't know o.o Kinda my point, about something completely different than what I was making it about. For some reason, all the SC2 community wants to do is talk shit about others and say how much better they are than everybody else. I don't get it. Things are going so well for SC2. Why is the attitude one of, "I'm getting fucked over, so fuck you!".
It's good that the bad leagues are getting pointed out. (This thread should not have anything to do with ESEA CS - great if they are doing well for the CS teams, but that is clearly not the case here).
With E-sports growing, it makes sense that a lot of leagues would pop up and try to get their share of the players and viewers attention. People will point out at the bad ones and hopefully they will die if they don't improve. At this point, it seems almost unanimous that ESEA SC2 is currently a bad league. Obviously, some people don't feel they are admitting to their mistakes properly and show little signs of wanting to improve.
Hopefully this thread stays on topic, and to me that is about the failures of last season and how they will change their operations for their upcoming season.
Edit: dbizzle largely did that in his last post and that's awesome
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On October 13 2011 06:38 VPGeneralHans wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 06:19 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:On October 12 2011 23:37 VPGeneralHans wrote:On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote:
should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~
i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals.
x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship.
ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion. Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion. Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money. Don't instigate about what you don't know o.o
Know what I do know? I know damn well that if I was scheduled to play a team comparable to EG. and they couldn't show up I would do anything I could to make the finals work. I also know damn well that if my team was awarded $5000 for something we didn't even accomplish then as a team we wouldn't have that for one second.
Are you saying you're happy with getting that money even though you didn't accomplish what the prize was meant for? Why don't you announce you are going to play the finals on your own terms and divide the money accordingly or something, and bypass the failed ESEA finals. At least then you would determine who actually deserves to be considered the "champions"
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United States4991 Posts
On October 13 2011 06:40 n Y n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 06:24 Insane wrote:
If someone is asking for people to pay them money, then it is absolutely the right time to bring up how awfully they fucked you up in the past so other people are not similarly screwed over.
To be honest, after such a terrible fuck up, I think ESEA really needs to make a change in who is running the league. It's hard to imagine the league being anything other than a joke at this point without some drastic changes. How dare they collect an amount of money from the players equal to less than one fifth of what they were giving back to the players! Edit: ~$960 collected; $5000 payed out to the players
Are they paying out $5000 dollars in this topic? No, they're collecting it. Did they pay it out fairly last season? Again, no - they forfeited a team that had a very real shot at winning the title.
Regardless of the payout ratio, the majority of the teams who sign up are never going to see any money back from the league. Instead, they're paying money to be able to participate in a league that apparently provides a poor experience, and pays out to (potentially) the wrong team due to administrative issues.
Yes, they're absolutely legitimately allowed to collect money from players if they want to (and the players agree to it obviously). But when you are having people pay for your event, you very much need to provide a higher standard of service. From this topic, it looks as if they should be poorly received as a free league, let alone one that costs money to enter.
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I have been on ESEA since about 2006 and they are the worst group of admins I've ever dealt with. I have spent the last 5 years banned from there services for apparently BAN evasion. Considering I got 1 good year out of ESEA before I ruined some kid. I was never banned for anything before that, but one day I was banned for evasion. I evaded a ban and was banned for 3 months or whatever. I waited about 5 months signed back up banned in about 4 hours for Ban evasion. Second offense 6 months. I wait again another 8-9 months sign back on, boom banned next day, this time it didn't say how long I was banned. It just gave me a date about 2 years down the line. . Finally I find out it's because you have shitty children admins like HollaHH who let his emotions and his poor CS skill run him and his judgments to ban people. When emailing ESEA many times, considering I've spent about 50$ just to be banned every time. I never got a response, maybe an automated letter stating that I've been banned for evading and it is what it is. Fuck you ESEA when CS:GO comes out I hope someone competent will run it.
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On October 13 2011 07:12 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 06:38 VPGeneralHans wrote:On October 13 2011 06:19 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:On October 12 2011 23:37 VPGeneralHans wrote:On October 12 2011 23:22 Fadetowhite wrote:
should rename the track to backstab central. everyone taking jabs at everyone it is kinda sad~~
i think everyone sees that giving a walkover finals is really bad, but shouldn´t x6 be a sport here and refuse to take a WO? this would be good for everyone.
EG gets their rightful shot at the finals.
x6 would make the win legit and if they lose they know that the better team at that time won+sportmanship.
ESEA gets their finals played, viewership / publicity.
just a suggestion. Check six had no decision in the matter, we strive for fairness. And yes, torbull should be taking an active role in this discussion. Pretty sure you guys could have done something about this, like agree to play at another time. After all, you guys are the ones accepting the check. Things could have definitely been done differently to ensure the proper team is awarded the money. Don't instigate about what you don't know o.o Know what I do know? I know damn well that if I was scheduled to play a team comparable to EG. and they couldn't show up I would do anything I could to make the finals work. I also know damn well that if my team was awarded $5000 for something we didn't even accomplish then as a team we wouldn't have that for one second. Are you saying you're happy with getting that money even though you didn't accomplish what the prize was meant for? Why don't you announce you are going to play the finals on your own terms and divide the money accordingly or something, and bypass the failed ESEA finals. At least then you would determine who actually deserves to be considered the "champions"
1st place was 2800 not 5000 but that's besides the point. I'm trying to say you don't know what we think, are doing, or anything. Comment on the league and the finals. Not us
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2011 06:48 dbizzle wrote:On October 13 2011 05:56 nGBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:58 yawnoC wrote:
Xeris post made me laugh. He contradicts himself a lot.
I now hope even more that ESEA becomes on of the biggest clan leagues out there just so fnatic gets shafted despite my love for there CS division. Did you manage in the in ESEA SC2 League? No, I didn't think so. I did and it was fucking awfully run. The ESEA system is set up terribly and is more in favor of people who want FF wins more then anything. da_bears how about you respond to my post then? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274326¤tpage=5#86 I've read your post and you have some good advice. ESEA has been more than lenient towards EG, and other teams which is behind the scenes and do not wish to go over in a public forum. I felt disgusted when I had to make the decision to give x6 the ffw. In the public's eyes, it looks really really bad, but I made my decision. Our main focus for ESEA is to just get the league out there and work on it from there. Yes there have been a lot of problems with score reporting, but its been fixed. I know there hasn't been much coverage for ESEA sc2, but that is going to change, we are focusing a lot more and hired some writers for season 3. ESEA has coders that code everything from website, to replay score reporting as well as trying to implement a stat system. The site is becoming more sc2 friendly, that is something I do not control but I can assure you it is improving all the time. As for ffing in playoffs, I do not like doing it, but when you play in a league, check your website msges and emails often. There have been many instances in season one and 2 where I could not get a hold of any manager or scheduler from a team. Most people don't even fill out their info on the website so there are no other means to contact them. FXO was one of those teams from the first season and its unfortunate for that. As a league admin I've come to realize that many of these top teams with sponsors overload their players with leagues and tournaments, and thats great for sc2. But if you have a consistent habit of always being late, never making match times and cant even report scores on time. Then either get more players or don't play in the league. EG was a prime example of that, and I was lenient enough to let them make up their matches and help them report their scores for which they could never report because they couldn't even get their players to send in their replays most of the time.
Yur last statements about EG makes no sense, when incontrol says they were waiting two weeks for the other teams to finish their matches.
You say they were the ones beeing always late and never making matching times? and then you helped them to finish 2 weeks earlier then the other teams?
why didnt you help the other teams, too?
its now you, who is making EG bad or incontrol talking total BS.
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have just skimmed through a bit of it.. but the first rant by incontrol was a bit out of line. If you all want to know what is 'killing eSports'.. its players/teams/personalities that do not realize that it's the leagues like OGL, ESEA, CEVO and others that are the reason eSports is around today. These organizations (past and current) have been there for the 'base' of players/teams that make up what eSports is all about. I understand that those that are in the spotlight and getting all of the 'followers' and such are the peeps that 'represent the face' of eSports.. but its the leagues and organizations that continue to offer the base of players (and pros) a place to compete. eSports is NOT about 'entertainment'... its about 'sports'.
My 2 cents.. but I may need to read up more and give some input on the actual situation.
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EPT
