EPT[ESEA] Season 10 - Page 10
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dbizzle
United States395 Posts
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QuanticGaming
United States36 Posts
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VPreboot
United States132 Posts
On October 13 2011 07:24 VPGeneralHans wrote: 1st place was 2800 not 5000 but that's besides the point. I'm trying to say you don't know what we think, are doing, or anything. Comment on the league and the finals. Not us Would you mind giving the xSix side of the story then? If all sides just give out statements about the situation then there would be less confusion and speculation and more actual facts. For example, I would like to know if xSix insisted to play the finals after the ESEA told them that it would probably be a forfiet win and I don't want to accuse xSix nor the ESEA wrongly because I don't have the facts. | ||
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Taeng
37 Posts
If he finds ESEA league horrible, just say it, which he already did. Why continue acting like some child whos throwing tantrum? He said the OP is stubborn and refused to admit. But he did apologised. What more can you do? If other teams find it horrible as well, i doubt they will take part in next season's. OP agreed season1+2 kinda fail, but said hes working on it. But i still dont see the need of Incontrol arguing. IMO, hes a well respected community personality. Find it kinda shameful to see him ranting off in a public forum. If every team that took part says it is horrible, people will boycott it. | ||
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
The only way they reverse this is to make season 3 an enjoyable season for both the players, managers, team staff in general AND the viewers. Until then, take the responsibility, take the hate, take the criticisms. And if ESEA are really stubborn people then just don't be surprised if your league continues to be a joke. Hope you guys take season 3 seriously and improve - that appears to be your goal anyway. | ||
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Doctor.Ownage
United States39 Posts
There are plenty of other(better) tourneys out there. I suggest we all support the tourneys which provide quality entertainment and boycott all these leagues which goals are too busy trying to improve profits instead of improving thier own league... Remember how IPL started? They had something like a 5k prize pool season one. But with hard work and high investments provided top notch quality entertainment. With tons of fan support, they saw it was a worthwhile endeavor, so they improved and upsized. Now, this weekend IPL hosted one of the best tournaments in SC2's short history. These are the leagues that we need to continue to follow as they not only NEED our support but appreciate and value it! | ||
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AzurewinD
United States569 Posts
I'm pretty sure Axslav and Strifecro were the only two people not at IPL(correct me if I'm wrong). The inflexibility of the admin in this case and the hasty w/o decision was a terrible outcome. It needs to be specifically admitted and acknowledged. Otherwise, if you have a team and don't like this kind of behavior, vote with your lack of attendance. That's the best way to go. | ||
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machination
United States175 Posts
Out of respect for your results as a Counterstrike player many moons ago I'll try to lay out my thoughts: When you state ESEA is the premier clan league in North America this, in my eyes, is true for the half-life engine based games but most certainly not Starcraft II. Additionally, ESEAs market dominance in those games was centered around the funding from the premium PUG servers and their competition (which consisted of either volunteer organizations or very poorly run businesses that misunderstood business basics) shrinking to the point that they died out. So basically ESEA is one of at best two major organizations still alive after the dust settled on the counter-strike scene. Additionally, its clear that ESEA is after approximately 10 years still running it's tournaments with a flawed system, poor administration (not my words), and a general lack of professionalism. The last point is immediately exemplified by the ESEA Starcraft II league commissioner engaging in a public argument with a team in their league which is providing negative publicity and pouring salt in an open wound instead of performing damage control. In my eyes this is far from the characteristics that would describe a league has the audacity to call itself premier (unless of course you don't think your reputation or customer satisfaction are important in that classification). Furthermore, unlike Counter-Strike there is actually a sense of community and general desire to grow the influence of Starcraft II. Since the games release the community has accomplished this in a much more effective and friendly manner than anything I saw from Counter-Strike. One of the best direct effects of the way this community carries itself is that a substantial and constant flow of feedback is given to the various leagues so that their administration can wade through the feedback and improve. The most successful leagues to date with the largest prize pools have, generally, modified their organizations based on this feedback to much critical acclaim. If ESEA wants to compete in this market they're going to have to accept the facts that when you do things that are detrimental to the community you're going to be called out on it and ultimately shunned if you don't take actions to prevent the problem in the future. Everyone makes mistakes and you cant be right 100% of the time, so just take your mistakes in stride and you'll be fine. That is if you want to truly be able to call yourselves the premier clan league in North America. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On October 13 2011 06:48 dbizzle wrote: As a league admin I've come to realize that many of these top teams with sponsors overload their players with leagues and tournaments, and thats great for sc2. But if you have a consistent habit of always being late, never making match times and cant even report scores on time. Then either get more players or don't play in the league. EG was a prime example of that, and I was lenient enough to let them make up their matches and help them report their scores for which they could never report because they couldn't even get their players to send in their replays most of the time. Hm, sounds to me like you don't like being called out on completely dropping the ball and doing a horrible job so now you're pulling up a bunch of unverifiable arguments to make EG look bad. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an iNcontrol or EG fanboy, I don't even really like them very much at all, but from what I've seen here let me say that I have never and will never watch ESEA. Turning the finals of a tourney into a walk over is quite honestly one of the worst things you could possible do to ruin an event, it doesn't even sound like you tried to make the finals happen. Also, are you seriously suggesting backup players? Are you kidding me? Sounds like you aren't even able to relate to the situation whatsoever and should never be placed into a position of administration. | ||
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Keldrath
United States449 Posts
On October 13 2011 06:35 hunger wrote: Meh. It is clear my point can't be demonstrated. People aren't seeing beyond what ESEA has done wrong. Whether or not they have badly erred, I think the community and especially pro player reaction in SC2 is quickly becoming one of entitlement and aggressive bias. I don't like seeing somebody known and respected like Incontrol behaving like this, and it is even worse that he gets a free pass and full support for it - no matter whether he is right or wrong about the specific situation. his team just got royally screwed out of a grand finals match. he has every right to be as upset as he wants. if you or anyone involved in ESEA (i really dont know if you are personally or not) can get past the fact that he's upset, and rightfully so, you'd realize there is a lot to learn from what he has said in this thread. But clearly getting past his anger is too much for some people... | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On October 13 2011 09:39 machination wrote: Dear da bears and ESEA, Out of respect for your results as a Counterstrike player many moons ago I'll try to lay out my thoughts: When you state ESEA is the premier clan league in North America this, in my eyes, is true for the half-life engine based games but most certainly not Starcraft II. Additionally, ESEAs market dominance in those games was centered around the funding from the premium PUG servers and their competition (which consisted of either volunteer organizations or very poorly run businesses that misunderstood business basics) shrinking to the point that they died out. So basically ESEA is one of at best two major organizations still alive after the dust settled on the counter-strike scene. Additionally, its clear that ESEA is after approximately 10 years still running it's tournaments with a flawed system, poor administration (not my words), and a general lack of professionalism. The last point is immediately exemplified by the ESEA Starcraft II league commissioner engaging in a public argument with a team in their league which is providing negative publicity and pouring salt in an open wound instead of performing damage control. In my eyes this is far from the characteristics that would describe a league has the audacity to call itself premier (unless of course you don't think your reputation or customer satisfaction are important in that classification). Furthermore, unlike Counter-Strike there is actually a sense of community and general desire to grow the influence of Starcraft II. Since the games release the community has accomplished this in a much more effective and friendly manner than anything I saw from Counter-Strike. One of the best direct effects of the way this community carries itself is that a substantial and constant flow of feedback is given to the various leagues so that their administration can wade through the feedback and improve. The most successful leagues to date with the largest prize pools have, generally, modified their organizations based on this feedback to much critical acclaim. If ESEA wants to compete in this market they're going to have to accept the facts that when you do things that are detrimental to the community you're going to be called out on it and ultimately shunned if you don't take actions to prevent the problem in the future. Everyone makes mistakes and you cant be right 100% of the time, so just take your mistakes in stride and you'll be fine. That is if you want to truly be able to call yourselves the premier clan league in North America. You basically said absolutely nothing here. All you did was highlight the ESEA calling themselves a premier league. Tipped your hat at their CS leagues and then underlined very generally all the problems it has and reiterated how it didn't reflect what they claimed. Good job. | ||
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zaxx
United States66 Posts
On October 13 2011 08:13 VPreboot wrote: Would you mind giving the xSix side of the story then? If all sides just give out statements about the situation then there would be less confusion and speculation and more actual facts. For example, I would like to know if xSix insisted to play the finals after the ESEA told them that it would probably be a forfiet win and I don't want to accuse xSix nor the ESEA wrongly because I don't have the facts. The problem with giving different sides to a story is that in almost every instance, no story will be 100% accurate or true. But, I will attempt to state what I know. CheckSix waited just as long as EG to play the finals. When x6 was informed they were to be playing, we made sure we could field 4 players for the finals. It was time sensitive for us as well due to the fact that we had a player due to attend WCG Mexico the morning after the match was schedule many miles away. Throughout the day, Fujikura, da_bears, and EG personel were in contact with each other trying to schedule the match. During that time, CheckSix offered (several times) to play the match at a later date (the next day when xSixMaker would be at WCG Mexico), in which ESEA declined. EG did not make the deadline time to play the match, after xSix had been on all day and night trying to work it out. ESEA decided to stick with what they were claiming and enforce the deadline. ESEA and CheckSix work together in many different fronts, including SC2. CheckSix had a CS:S team that was sent to 4 straight ESEA-Invite finals, and x6 just made the transition back to 1.6 with a team that competes in ESEA-Invite for 1.6. As much as this hurts CheckSix to see a final end this way, it was ESEA's ruling that we are attempting to respect. Stating that, I would like to ask that CheckSix be left out of this debate. We had no influence over the ruling nor did we encourage the free win. I have the utmost respect for Scoots, Evil Geniuses, and ESEA. It's personally sad to see something like this happen to two such entities in NA eSports. | ||
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Keldrath
United States449 Posts
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ES_JohnClark
United States1121 Posts
1. ESEA made a decision that probably was not the optimal decision to make. 2. incontrol has handled this very unprofessionally 3. there are a lot of people on here that do not know what it takes to run these leagues. Bashing ESEA and an admin that many of you do not know.. but who has been in the eSports scene longer then so many of us commenting in this thread... just makes zero sense. Letting them know some things they can do to improve on.. is one thing.. but the bashing is not helping. Running just a single tournament online is hard enough... but managing a league is another beast, then throw in having to deal with 'teams' that are of a 'pro' status and expect to not have to make too many concessions is like herding kittens. I agree with most of you that ESEA may have made the wrong decision and a day extension (with their opponents approval) would have been ideal. Does this mean that everything that ESEA has contributed to eSports should just be shat on? I hope both parties learn from this experience. I would also like to think that many of us in here would be willing to give ESEA a fair shake and offer suggestions to help them grow within the community.. or we are only hurting ourselves. eSports will not grow by the hands of a few entertainment organizations.. it will though by the many 'grass roots' organizations that continue to offer the base of gamers a place to compete. | ||
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KeyHunt
United States218 Posts
On October 13 2011 10:44 csn_JohnClark wrote: wow.. 3 things are very evident here. 1. ESEA made a decision that probably was not the optimal decision to make. 2. incontrol has handled this very unprofessionally 3. there are a lot of people on here that do not know what it takes to run these leagues. Bashing ESEA and an admin that many of you do not know.. but who has been in the eSports scene longer then so many of us commenting in this thread... just makes zero sense. Letting them know some things they can do to improve on.. is one thing.. but the bashing is not helping. Running just a single tournament online is hard enough... but managing a league is another beast, then throw in having to deal with 'teams' that are of a 'pro' status and expect to not have to make too many concessions is like herding kittens. I agree with most of you that ESEA may have made the wrong decision and a day extension (with their opponents approval) would have been ideal. Does this mean that everything that ESEA has contributed to eSports should just be shat on? I hope both parties learn from this experience. I would also like to think that many of us in here would be willing to give ESEA a fair shake and offer suggestions to help them grow within the community.. or we are only hurting ourselves. eSports will not grow by the hands of a few entertainment organizations.. it will though by the many 'grass roots' organizations that continue to offer the base of gamers a place to compete. As usual, a great quote from John. | ||
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FXOpen
Australia1844 Posts
On October 13 2011 06:48 dbizzle wrote: I've read your post and you have some good advice. ESEA has been more than lenient towards EG, and other teams which is behind the scenes and do not wish to go over in a public forum. I felt disgusted when I had to make the decision to give x6 the ffw. In the public's eyes, it looks really really bad, but I made my decision. Our main focus for ESEA is to just get the league out there and work on it from there. Yes there have been a lot of problems with score reporting, but its been fixed. I know there hasn't been much coverage for ESEA sc2, but that is going to change, we are focusing a lot more and hired some writers for season 3. ESEA has coders that code everything from website, to replay score reporting as well as trying to implement a stat system. The site is becoming more sc2 friendly, that is something I do not control but I can assure you it is improving all the time. As for ffing in playoffs, I do not like doing it, but when you play in a league, check your website msges and emails often. There have been many instances in season one and 2 where I could not get a hold of any manager or scheduler from a team. Most people don't even fill out their info on the website so there are no other means to contact them. FXO was one of those teams from the first season and its unfortunate for that. As a league admin I've come to realize that many of these top teams with sponsors overload their players with leagues and tournaments, and thats great for sc2. But if you have a consistent habit of always being late, never making match times and cant even report scores on time. Then either get more players or don't play in the league. EG was a prime example of that, and I was lenient enough to let them make up their matches and help them report their scores for which they could never report because they couldn't even get their players to send in their replays most of the time. LoL, how subtle....Team name dropping here and there because of your poor organisation... What happened in FXO's case can be seen by this thread of emailz~ ---------- Original message ---------- From: FXOUnstable Date: Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:18 PM Subject: Re: fxo vs vvv To: d13 Hey mate, An issue arised today in our CW, the SEA server was patched a few hours earlier and it prevented 2 of our players from logging into the NA server which was completely out of our control, since for aussies the sea server and na server are on the same insall. This forced us to not play our match vs vvv. could we arrange a reschedule please as there was nothing we could do about it. ---------- Original message ---------- From: d13 Date: Tue, May 10, 2011 at 12:23 PM Subject: Re: fxo vs vvv To: FXOUnstable will you guys be able to play it tomorrow? ---------- Original message ---------- From: FXOUnstable Date: Mon, May 9, 2011 at 11:03 PM Subject: Re: fxo vs vvv To: d13 My players can be there tommorow, it depends on if blizzard let us play or not regarding the patch. I will see if i can get a workaround going, the patch only came out a few hours ago. _______________________________________________________________________________ After this we were sent a message stating we were walked over. Whilst it wasn't ESEA's fault that our players were unable to play, nor ours. You start name dropping and stating sponsored teams are the problem, and you are going to get in trouble. Its usually these teams who do the right thing. Not the opposite. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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FXOpen
Australia1844 Posts
On October 13 2011 11:20 Torte de Lini wrote: Why is your emails in an odd chronological order? Those are just copy/pasted from the msg system on ESEA | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
This is because you will almost always have one or two players having other obligations and this bogs down a tournament immensely making it stretch out for weeks. I remember doing some DotA tournaments and it is such an immense pain to have everybody on at the same time to play on a particular day where people can be spread out all over the country on different time zones. When doing team leagues it is not strange to have back up players around. That is very normal. | ||
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CHOMPMannER
Canada175 Posts
There were problems in the past cool, that is over with. Time to help each other out to get better and move forward with a better structured league in the future. | ||
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