EPTI really wish we had ITs to utilize
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 14
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HelloSon
United States456 Posts
I really wish we had ITs to utilize | ||
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markalbert2kx
Philippines3 Posts
1. If you see the enemy being greedy (i.e. Nexus first/FFE), is it your weakness as a player that you did not exploit it? "He's greedy but I want to play macro!" 2. If it seems Z is at a disadvantage in the long run, why not saturate 2 base ASAP and try to end the game? (Toss FFE seems to think like this) | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 26 2013 16:36 markalbert2kx wrote: Philosophical question: 1. If you see the enemy being greedy (i.e. Nexus first/FFE), is it your weakness as a player that you did not exploit it? "He's greedy but I want to play macro!" 2. If it seems Z is at a disadvantage in the long run, why not saturate 2 base ASAP and try to end the game? (Toss FFE seems to think like this) No you can't punish a nexus first or FFE in general. The only way you can punish a nexus first is if you blindly early pool. If you don't early pool there is no build that will punish it and any build you do that you hope to punish it will rely on protoss not knowing it's coming. Same with FFE. | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
On March 26 2013 16:36 markalbert2kx wrote: Philosophical question: 1. If you see the enemy being greedy (i.e. Nexus first/FFE), is it your weakness as a player that you did not exploit it? "He's greedy but I want to play macro!" 2. If it seems Z is at a disadvantage in the long run, why not saturate 2 base ASAP and try to end the game? (Toss FFE seems to think like this) 1. Well, maybe your scouting was lacking. Playing greedy blind ca be a risk, because the opponent COULD be doing a blind all-in. But if you're not doing an all-in, then by the time you scout greedy play, it may be to late to punish it. 2. What do you mean at a disadvantage? FFE doesn't necessarly lead into a 2base all-in. You can go from FFE into a macro game just fine. And a zerg 2base all-in generally will not work if your opponent knows what he's doing. | ||
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markalbert2kx
Philippines3 Posts
On March 26 2013 16:47 gronnelg wrote: 1. Well, maybe your scouting was lacking. Playing greedy blind ca be a risk, because the opponent COULD be doing a blind all-in. But if you're not doing an all-in, then by the time you scout greedy play, it may be to late to punish it. 2. What do you mean at a disadvantage? FFE doesn't necessarly lead into a 2base all-in. You can go from FFE into a macro game just fine. And a zerg 2base all-in generally will not work if your opponent knows what he's doing. For example, I know Toss is going FFE>Stargate (as usual). I always lose, until I decided to do a nydus 5 queen + speedling in his main when he has 2 void rays. Cheesy I know, but even going fast third seems to be sub-optimal (queens so far, bases not connected, no larvae to saturate) when aiming for econ lead.. Or is it really a macro issue? Am I the only one who thinks that in hots, fewer, more "counter" units is better than maxing supply with army? 200/200 melts just as easily. Or is it a macro issue again and I should be able to remax quickly and repeatedly? | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
On March 26 2013 17:05 markalbert2kx wrote: For example, I know Toss is going FFE>Stargate (as usual). I always lose, until I decided to do a nydus 5 queen + speedling in his main when he has 2 void rays. Cheesy I know, but even going fast third seems to be sub-optimal (queens so far, bases not connected, no larvae to saturate) when aiming for econ lead.. Or is it really a macro issue? Am I the only one who thinks that in hots, fewer, more "counter" units is better than maxing supply with army? 200/200 melts just as easily. Or is it a macro issue again and I should be able to remax quickly and repeatedly? Maybe you issue is with creepy spreading then? If you scout air, then you know there won't be quite as much of a ground army. So you don't need that much gas. Meaning more minrals. So you can get more queens, and more spores. As for you're 2nd question I'm entriely sure what you mean. If you face a maxed skytoss with HT, then I'd say you're pretty much screwed anyway, and your issue lies in letting it get to that point... | ||
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roadrunner343
148 Posts
On March 26 2013 15:46 HelloSon wrote: For masters, how are you guys harassing late game? I find my harassing much weaker in HotS compared to WoL. Shit like widow mines and nexus cannon are making my backstabs worthless. I really wish we had ITs to utilize I find my harass being essentially the same, mainly because I enjoy playing a heavy muta style. Mutas can survive a couple widow mine shots, so unless they sneak 3 in one spot, your normally fine. Especially with the health regen. You basically just have to keep tabs on how many/where there at and have nearby overseers to verify they don't add more (Poke in periodically). For lings, I just run 1-2 lings in slightly before the main army to detonate widow mines. Otherwise, I harass just as I always have. | ||
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RandomQueen
France23 Posts
In this matchup, when the Protoss go for expand (ie FFE) and start to build Colo + Sentries + Stalkers + let say 1-2 VR, and then take his 3rd and attack, I have a really bad time. Especialy on Neo Planet. I feel like I'm forced to crush his army (army trade with Roach ling on 2-3 bases) when he is on B2 only. Is that a good idea ? It look like suicide. Please give me some advice, when he come at me with his army I got crushed without having time to create a second wave. Thanks. EDIT : sorry if the question have similar points with a recent question. | ||
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Atthasit
Russian Federation81 Posts
On March 26 2013 20:34 RandomQueen wrote: ZvP Gold noob question here : In this matchup, when the Protoss go for expand (ie FFE) and start to build Colo + Sentries + Stalkers + let say 1-2 VR, and then take his 3rd and attack, I have a really bad time. Especialy on Neo Planet. I feel like I'm forced to crush his army (army trade with Roach ling on 2-3 bases) when he is on B2 only. Is that a good idea ? It look like suicide. Please give me some advice, when he come at me with his army I got crushed without having time to create a second wave. Thanks. EDIT : sorry if the question have similar points with a recent question. You're trying to fight tier 2-3 tech with tier 1-2 tech, his army hardcounters yours. Instead of roach ling you should have swarm host and hydralisk army, adding corruptors if he is colossus heavy. 3 saturated bases is more than enough to afford that. If he's not opening air (5-6 phoenix), get 12-14 swarm hosts first then start hydralisk production. In case of double SG opening, get around 10 hydras then start swarm hosts. | ||
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RandomQueen
France23 Posts
On March 26 2013 20:51 Atthasit wrote: You're trying to fight tier 2-3 tech with tier 1-2 tech, his army hardcounters yours. Instead of roach ling you should have swarm host and hydralisk army, adding corruptors if he is colossus heavy. 3 saturated bases is more than enough to afford that. If he's not opening air (5-6 phoenix), get 12-14 swarm hosts first then start hydralisk production. In case of double SG opening, get around 10 hydras then start swarm hosts. Thanks for your response. I think I am late in my tech / army prod. I will work on that  ! | ||
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KuKKi
Germany73 Posts
Its about massive(30-40) bling/slings all-in, i don't know how to defend, it strikes me, while getting Spire or sometimes still getting Lair Tech. Most times i have a spine, and several lings and some banelings, but then its of course already lost. it looks like this delayed build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369530 So i have 2 Questions: 1st one: How to defend against it? Doing 8-10 Blings and try to trade 2 for XX the whole time? 5-6 spines, also doesnt help. or should i get roaches earlier(if i know it will come), block the ramp, save drones to main, and sac my expansion? But then i think, he could get ahead, while hes getting lair while he's attacking, throw some spores to defend my initial 10-12 mutas so he can get more mutas out later on, because he's on 2 bases, while i just retook my expansion. Some ideas or a good way of defending it, would be helpful. 2nd one: How to anticipate it? I've seen it as hatch first and as pool first, getting a Baneling Nest after speed is pretty standard too, the only thing for me, would be, to see he's not getting Lair, and maybe still being on 3 gas. But not all Maps provide either a safe overlord at his expansion, nor easy run-bys with a ling, and with a good building placement, and positioning, i will never scout his main. Slow Overlords can be sniped with 2 queens if he starts attacking them soon enough. So the only way i can imagine would be overlord speed, and then scout. But thats a full 100gas, and if he's doing the exact same build as me, i will have 1 muta less, and that's huge. Maybe i didn't notice something, which would clearly indicate this all-in.(I was out of the game for a very long time too ~_~) Some advices would be pretty great Thanks alot KuKKi | ||
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Reithan
United States360 Posts
On March 26 2013 15:35 enemy2010 wrote: What about static defense like spores and spines? I've been trying with 1spine 1spore early and expanding to 2spore and 2-3 spines later, but they just methvac past the spores and 2-3 methvacs full of MMM just eats the spines in seconds, anyway. I guess my question is what is a 'standard' 'safe' opening vs T right now...is there one? And mid/late game what is a good viable comp vs bio or vs mech that you don't need 300 APM to actually make work? | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On March 26 2013 23:07 Reithan wrote: I've been trying with 1spine 1spore early and expanding to 2spore and 2-3 spines later, but they just methvac past the spores and 2-3 methvacs full of MMM just eats the spines in seconds, anyway. I guess my question is what is a 'standard' 'safe' opening vs T right now...is there one? And mid/late game what is a good viable comp vs bio or vs mech that you don't need 300 APM to actually make work? Standard opening: -15 Hatch -16 Pool -16 Gas Double queen, get speed. Pull off gas. From here, to answer your question about styles, you actually can open ling/bane/infestor. I use the strategy when playing on maps where drops are very strong (especially star station). Why? It allows you to stay 3 base and tech to hive with 5-6 infestors (don't go over 5-6). I ussually tech ultra afterwards | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On March 26 2013 23:07 Reithan wrote: I've been trying with 1spine 1spore early and expanding to 2spore and 2-3 spines later, but they just methvac past the spores and 2-3 methvacs full of MMM just eats the spines in seconds, anyway. I guess my question is what is a 'standard' 'safe' opening vs T right now...is there one? And mid/late game what is a good viable comp vs bio or vs mech that you don't need 300 APM to actually make work? For the problem of the 5-7 minute Harass I am actually liking some roach openings to deal with this. The standard build from Glon is a good opener. What I do from that point depends on what I scout. If it is gas before expand I will put my roach warren down at 5 minutes and get back on gas, and then I can defend most of the early aggression. If it is CC or 1 rax FE, then I will expand at 6 minutes, throw down my roach warren, build a 3rd queen and a 2nd gas, (put drones back on the 1st gas) with this build I like to OL scout at the 7:15 mark and then I can confirm what he is doing... EDIT - You don't want to overmake Roaches with these builds, just enough to defend and make your opponents respect the threat of a roach push. Ok with the answer for a good composition, vs bio you can try ling-bane infestor into ultras, I am usually playing muta,ling bane so I am not totally familiar with it. vs Mech I really like Roach, Hydra, Viper. With blinding cloud you can actually trade quite efficiently in the first fight and then remax so quickly you can mop up the terran army. This isn't hugely APM intensive, you need to attack with a good concave and hit your blinding clouds but overall it isn't hugely intensive | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On March 26 2013 16:36 markalbert2kx wrote: Philosophical question: 1. If you see the enemy being greedy (i.e. Nexus first/FFE), is it your weakness as a player that you did not exploit it? "He's greedy but I want to play macro!" 2. If it seems Z is at a disadvantage in the long run, why not saturate 2 base ASAP and try to end the game? (Toss FFE seems to think like this) 1. If are already prepared when you discover it. If not wait for a better time. 2. If you as a player can't handle a long game then yes. | ||
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kiad
14 Posts
http://drop.sc/314407 http://drop.sc/314406 I was originally placed in Gold league in HOTS and was doing quite alright, but then I accidentally clicked the Leave League button. When I placed again I was put in Bronze and now cant actually win a game to save my life. I'm sure thats probably the last time I will ever see the "heights" of the gold league, but if I can get some pointers into why I suck at this game that would be quite helpful. There are only 2 games here that I played today (and played badly) but they are games I know I could have won. | ||
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Hamzerglar
United States19 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE EDIT: Man, my ZvT APM is so much higher than for other matchups too. Average around 100apm (not fast I know) yet in ZvT I am running 130-140 | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On March 27 2013 10:50 TheRabidDeer wrote: Why the shit does ZvT have to be so damned unforgiving? With widow mines T doesnt even have to split marines anymore, just retreat then pick up and torpedo away in medivacs. Meanwhile thor air AE, mine AE, battle hellions, or ravens HSM can completely rape you if you lose focus for one second. Literally lost a 30 minute game with me on 5 bases vs 2 mining bases (even 1 for a short while) because I got hit by HSM because I was focusing on everything around the mines and injecting. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE EDIT: Man, my ZvT APM is so much higher than for other matchups too. Average around 100apm (not fast I know) yet in ZvT I am running 130-140 Well you can't change the matchup so do things to reduce the apm required and increase your situational awareness. You want to do as many things preemptively as possible before engaging in any kind of fight. For instance inject all your hatcheries before you engage. Put down extra hatcheries if there's a chance you'll run out of larva. Learn to add new units to your control group as you make them so you don't have to go back and get them. Anything that increases your situational awareness will reduce the amount of apm you need. For instance if you see a drop coming with an overlord you can prepare for it and when it arrives you won't have to do nearly as much to deal with it. So spreading out creep and overlords, burrowed zerglings are all things you can do during down time to reduce the apm you need during the more action packed parts of the game. And weigh the pro's and cons of pressure/harrass plays. A really good example of this is when you manage to sneak a few zerglings into a protoss base. You have enough in there to distract the protoss but not enough to do real damage. If you keep microing them and lose focus on your build order you may be doing more harm then good. This goes double for later in the game when you're doing muta harrass. Your time is a resource just like minerals and gas. Spend it wisely. Stop to look back at your base. Multitasking isn't actually doing multiple things at the same time. That's impossible. You're just breaking larger tasks into smaller increments and keeping them in short term memory so you can return to them as necessary. For example you want to spread out your overlords on the map. But doing it all at once will cause you to fall behind on other important tasks. Since you don't need to complete this task immediately you can do a couple then do more later eventually you'll have full coverage. If it helps make a list and post it where you can see it of "housekeeping tasks" you can intersperse among your other more important tasks. Usually the more important ones are the ones we don't have to be reminded of but the less important ones fall by the wayside and start to add up into a loss. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On March 27 2013 13:44 ManiacTheZealot wrote: Well you can't change the matchup so do things to reduce the apm required and increase your situational awareness. You want to do as many things preemptively as possible before engaging in any kind of fight. For instance inject all your hatcheries before you engage. Put down extra hatcheries if there's a chance you'll run out of larva. Learn to add new units to your control group as you make them so you don't have to go back and get them. Anything that increases your situational awareness will reduce the amount of apm you need. For instance if you see a drop coming with an overlord you can prepare for it and when it arrives you won't have to do nearly as much to deal with it. So spreading out creep and overlords, burrowed zerglings are all things you can do during down time to reduce the apm you need during the more action packed parts of the game. And weigh the pro's and cons of pressure/harrass plays. A really good example of this is when you manage to sneak a few zerglings into a protoss base. You have enough in there to distract the protoss but not enough to do real damage. If you keep microing them and lose focus on your build order you may be doing more harm then good. This goes double for later in the game when you're doing muta harrass. Your time is a resource just like minerals and gas. Spend it wisely. Stop to look back at your base. Multitasking isn't actually doing multiple things at the same time. That's impossible. You're just breaking larger tasks into smaller increments and keeping them in short term memory so you can return to them as necessary. For example you want to spread out your overlords on the map. But doing it all at once will cause you to fall behind on other important tasks. Since you don't need to complete this task immediately you can do a couple then do more later eventually you'll have full coverage. If it helps make a list and post it where you can see it of "housekeeping tasks" you can intersperse among your other more important tasks. Usually the more important ones are the ones we don't have to be reminded of but the less important ones fall by the wayside and start to add up into a loss. I have good situational awareness and mechanics. If you wait until inject is up to engage you lose the possibility to engage in a favorable position and let him get a good position on you. I know how to multitask. I just made a mistake in judgment and looked away from the fight for less than a second or two. I saw MMM, sent lings to cut off marines so that they should get hit from mines too, sent in mutas to go after mines, then went back to inject (and hotkey new queen for 5th base) and didnt see the HSM's until too late. He only had marauders/medivacs left though so I went back to do creep spread and then I got hit by a couple mines that had just come up. 100apm is pretty low for mid masters, it just gets bumped up to 130-140 because ZvT has a lot more little bits of micro involved or you lose everything instantly. | ||
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