WCS![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/pathy/TLSTRAT/ZERGHELPME4.jpg)
ZvT: Early Game • Mid Game • Late Game ZvZ: Early Game • Mid Game • Late Game ZvP: Early Game • Mid Game • Late Game
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/R22Xc1E.png)
- Anyone is allowed to answer. Try to backup your statements with pro game examples whenever possible. However, if you assert something wildly wrong, especially without enough support, you will be warned/banned. If you are unsure of the validity of an idea, just ask a question instead.
- In general this thread is here to help bridge the gap between proven pro level strategies/ideas and the average player, not for you to give your opinion (unless it has very sufficient grounding from pro game evidence).
- Don't ask the same questions that are in the OP.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WrXN0p4.png)
Top- Q. What are the standard recommended strategies per match-up?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
ZvZ
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
BatesCsC wrote:
"Safe Roach Opener" ZvZ by Violet
9 Overlord
15 Pool
16 Hatch
15 Overlord
15 Queen + Gas
*Ling scout
Queen (3:50)
Speed (4:15)
Baneling Nest (5:00)
Lingxx3 (5:30)
Lingxx3 (6:10)
Lair (6:20)
Evo chamber (6:45)
Gasx3 (7:00)
Roach Warren (7:15)
+1 Ranged (7:45)
Roach Speed (8:10)
Example: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=24h37m
"Safe Roach Opener" ZvZ by Violet
9 Overlord
15 Pool
16 Hatch
15 Overlord
15 Queen + Gas
*Ling scout
Queen (3:50)
Speed (4:15)
Baneling Nest (5:00)
Lingxx3 (5:30)
Lingxx3 (6:10)
Lair (6:20)
Evo chamber (6:45)
Gasx3 (7:00)
Roach Warren (7:15)
+1 Ranged (7:45)
Roach Speed (8:10)
Example: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=24h37m
ZvT
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
BatesCsC wrote:
"Swarm-Style" by Snute
9 Overlord
15 Hatch
17 Pool
17 Overlord
Queenx2 Lingx4 (3:50)
Queenx2 (4:40)
Gasx2 (5:20)
Hatch - 3rd (5:50)
Evo x2 (6:30)
Roach Warren (6:45)
+1 Melee/+1 Carapace (7:00)
Gas x2 (7:20)
*Pool resources
Roach x6 (7:45)
Lair (8:10)
Zergling speed + Baneling nest (8:35)
Hatch - 4th (9:00)
Baneling speed + Roach speed (9:45)
+2 Melee/+2 Carapace (10:00)
Example: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=32h10m09s
ZvP
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
MaSsan wrote:
Versus Forge Fast Expansion, I recommend standard 3 hatch opening. The simple build is down below:
+ Show Spoiler [3 hatch build] +
15p16h 15ovie, queen+ling when pool finishes, make a drone and rally it to 3rd to take it.
6:00 – 2 gases
6:30 ~ 7 minutes – a roach warren (this is up to you on when to get this)
First 100 gas - start lair, then 3&4th gas + evolution chamber(optional) to get upgrades
Next 100 gas - ling speed
Lair finishes – get roach speed
Versus Forge Fast Expansion, I recommend standard 3 hatch opening. The simple build is down below:
+ Show Spoiler [3 hatch build] +
15p16h 15ovie, queen+ling when pool finishes, make a drone and rally it to 3rd to take it.
6:00 – 2 gases
6:30 ~ 7 minutes – a roach warren (this is up to you on when to get this)
First 100 gas - start lair, then 3&4th gas + evolution chamber(optional) to get upgrades
Next 100 gas - ling speed
Lair finishes – get roach speed
Q. What is the optimal overlord timings?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
MaSsan wrote:
I do 17, 24, 31, 38, and so on off hatch first. Once two bases are saturated, make sure you make at least 2 overlords at a time.
Off Pool first builds, make 15 overlord instead of 17.
I do 17, 24, 31, 38, and so on off hatch first. Once two bases are saturated, make sure you make at least 2 overlords at a time.
Off Pool first builds, make 15 overlord instead of 17.
Q. Is it better to wait for other injects if my injects are out of sync?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
MaSsan wrote:
Try to inject everything at once if possible. If injects are out of sync, do not wait since you'll most likely won't have perfect injects and will eventually sync them again.
Try to inject everything at once if possible. If injects are out of sync, do not wait since you'll most likely won't have perfect injects and will eventually sync them again.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cyicMAo.png)
Top- Q. How do you execute "Roach ling baneling all-in"?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Suppy wrote:
Hatch Gas Pool, ling speed
5:50 resume gas mining
6:00 hatch
6:10 add 2nd + 3rd gas
6:10 RW
Stop drone production at 2 base full saturation
Baneling nest at RW completion
13 roaches, rally lings behind
Hit at about 8:45
Hatch Gas Pool, ling speed
5:50 resume gas mining
6:00 hatch
6:10 add 2nd + 3rd gas
6:10 RW
Stop drone production at 2 base full saturation
Baneling nest at RW completion
13 roaches, rally lings behind
Hit at about 8:45
Q. Can you tell me speed roach speed baneling push that everyone is talking about?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Karpfen wrote:
15H
16P
2xQueens
2xQueens
@5:10 2xG
@6:00 3rd H
@100g Speed
@6:25 2xEvos 1xG(3rd)
@7:10 1xG(4th)
@100%Evos +1/+1(melee)
@7:35 Lair
@8min RW,BN
@100%Lair SpeedR,SpeedB
@9:05 G(5th)
Stop Drone Production @saturation
9:40 4th H(M)
Overlords,Roaches,Banes
15H
16P
2xQueens
2xQueens
@5:10 2xG
@6:00 3rd H
@100g Speed
@6:25 2xEvos 1xG(3rd)
@7:10 1xG(4th)
@100%Evos +1/+1(melee)
@7:35 Lair
@8min RW,BN
@100%Lair SpeedR,SpeedB
@9:05 G(5th)
Stop Drone Production @saturation
9:40 4th H(M)
Overlords,Roaches,Banes
MaSsan wrote:
Above build is taken from GSL WCS KR 2013 Season 1 Finals, in Innovation versus Soulkey game 5.
Link to the vod is found here
Above build is taken from GSL WCS KR 2013 Season 1 Finals, in Innovation versus Soulkey game 5.
Link to the vod is found here
Q. How do I deal with Hellbat drops?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
MaSsan wrote:
Best way to deal with hellbats are going roaches, and having spore each base. I focus medivacs with queens before it comes into mineral line, pull drones before medivacs get into drone line, and spores and roaches will do the rest and make sure that drop ends there.
After that, you are free to drone up.
Best way to deal with hellbats are going roaches, and having spore each base. I focus medivacs with queens before it comes into mineral line, pull drones before medivacs get into drone line, and spores and roaches will do the rest and make sure that drop ends there.
After that, you are free to drone up.
Q. What is the best way to deal with drops?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Blade55555 wrote:
Dealing with drops what I do once the game gets going is I leave a small pack of lings with 2-3 banes with them to defend drops at my main + 3rd/4'th base location. A couple spines as well with a spore or 2. That is the best way to deal with it so you can deal with an attack while defending against a drop as well.
The spines are useful in delaying his drops from doing a lot of damage if you don't have units over there or if he kills all the ling/bane you left behind to deal with drops. The spores can kill the medivacs so he can't just run off or if you are lucky will kill the medivac before he even gets his units out.
Dealing with drops what I do once the game gets going is I leave a small pack of lings with 2-3 banes with them to defend drops at my main + 3rd/4'th base location. A couple spines as well with a spore or 2. That is the best way to deal with it so you can deal with an attack while defending against a drop as well.
The spines are useful in delaying his drops from doing a lot of damage if you don't have units over there or if he kills all the ling/bane you left behind to deal with drops. The spores can kill the medivacs so he can't just run off or if you are lucky will kill the medivac before he even gets his units out.
Q. What are you supposed to do against mech?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Blade55555 wrote:
swarmhosts are the easiest way. You have to remember that mech is not bio. It takes a lot longer to get a strong mech ball then it does to make a strong bio ball. If the terran tries any cute pre-swarmhost timing, it's going to be with very little units and you will be able to make roach/ling at the last second and still hold it off easily.
You should be doing swarmhost/roach/hydra into viper/swarmhost/roach/hydra.
A guide video can be found here.
swarmhosts are the easiest way. You have to remember that mech is not bio. It takes a lot longer to get a strong mech ball then it does to make a strong bio ball. If the terran tries any cute pre-swarmhost timing, it's going to be with very little units and you will be able to make roach/ling at the last second and still hold it off easily.
You should be doing swarmhost/roach/hydra into viper/swarmhost/roach/hydra.
A guide video can be found here.
MaSsan wrote:
After getting SH army ready, you can either transition into Brood Lords or vipers. Keep making Corruptors to protect eitehr tech units, and keep on trading with locusts for his army, or prevent him from expanding all the way.
After getting SH army ready, you can either transition into Brood Lords or vipers. Keep making Corruptors to protect eitehr tech units, and keep on trading with locusts for his army, or prevent him from expanding all the way.
Q. How many spores do I need verse cloaked banshee?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Blade55555 wrote:
If it's only 1 starport you should only put 1 at each base. In the mineral line preferably, if he starts taking shots at the hatchery and what not you can move it, then cancel the burrow when he moves his banshee away. I rarely make 2, but then normally when there is cloak banshee out on the field your lair should be close to being done so you can just make an overseer.
But generally you want 1 in mineral line of main/nat/third.
If your lair hasn't started for some reason and cloak banshee I would make 2 then.
If it’s 2 starport should probably make 2-3 at each base and add queens.
If it's only 1 starport you should only put 1 at each base. In the mineral line preferably, if he starts taking shots at the hatchery and what not you can move it, then cancel the burrow when he moves his banshee away. I rarely make 2, but then normally when there is cloak banshee out on the field your lair should be close to being done so you can just make an overseer.
But generally you want 1 in mineral line of main/nat/third.
If your lair hasn't started for some reason and cloak banshee I would make 2 then.
If it’s 2 starport should probably make 2-3 at each base and add queens.
Q. How do you defending a 2 rax when they pull 5 SCV’s?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Glon wrote:
1. To defend ANY sort of 2 rax, you should:
a) Identify that it is a 2 rax. Stop droning and build an overlord (on 16 or 17 supply)
b) Send ~3 drones to your natural, and damage SCV's as much as possible
c) DENY THE FIRST BUNKER. When you see the marine and more SCV's coming up, pull almost all drones from your main and make sure to deny the first bunker. To do this: 2 drones should target the first marine, some A move into the SCVs, some attack bunker directly
d) When your pool pops, build a spine at the back of your natural and constantly pump lings. I prefer to NOT build a queen and continue ling production. If you see an opportunity, run ~8-10 lings past the bunker and intercept rallying marines.
e) Be careful with your spine. There will be a timing when you have enough lings to pull your drones with the lings and kill everything the terran has. Make sure to do this before your natural hatchery dies, and try to engage while your natural hatch still has ~500 health (so it can't just be focused)
1. To defend ANY sort of 2 rax, you should:
a) Identify that it is a 2 rax. Stop droning and build an overlord (on 16 or 17 supply)
b) Send ~3 drones to your natural, and damage SCV's as much as possible
c) DENY THE FIRST BUNKER. When you see the marine and more SCV's coming up, pull almost all drones from your main and make sure to deny the first bunker. To do this: 2 drones should target the first marine, some A move into the SCVs, some attack bunker directly
d) When your pool pops, build a spine at the back of your natural and constantly pump lings. I prefer to NOT build a queen and continue ling production. If you see an opportunity, run ~8-10 lings past the bunker and intercept rallying marines.
e) Be careful with your spine. There will be a timing when you have enough lings to pull your drones with the lings and kill everything the terran has. Make sure to do this before your natural hatchery dies, and try to engage while your natural hatch still has ~500 health (so it can't just be focused)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fdsvuIY.png)
Top- Q. Are hydralisks good to add in ZvZ with roach/infestor or is more infestors better?
+ Show Spoiler +
Blade55555 wrote:
Roach/hydra/infestor will beat a roach/infestor player in a straight up fight. Hydras are actually good in ZvZ and I would recommend any Zerg to start adding them into your roach/infestor army once you get to about 130-150 supply. This doesn't mean you win for sure against a roach/infestor player though. If you attack sloppily like up a ramp or he gets a full surround his roach/infestor army will kill you.
If both of you get equel concaves or anything like that you should win unless he has more units or way better upgrades. In an even scenario though you will wint his fight 100% of the time as long as you don't engage badly.
If you want to go roach/infestor and not add hydras you need to be doing roach hit squads, burrowed infestors and try not to fight the roach/hydra/infestor army straight up unless he is going up a ramp and you get him then.
Roach/hydra/infestor will beat a roach/infestor player in a straight up fight. Hydras are actually good in ZvZ and I would recommend any Zerg to start adding them into your roach/infestor army once you get to about 130-150 supply. This doesn't mean you win for sure against a roach/infestor player though. If you attack sloppily like up a ramp or he gets a full surround his roach/infestor army will kill you.
If both of you get equel concaves or anything like that you should win unless he has more units or way better upgrades. In an even scenario though you will wint his fight 100% of the time as long as you don't engage badly.
If you want to go roach/infestor and not add hydras you need to be doing roach hit squads, burrowed infestors and try not to fight the roach/hydra/infestor army straight up unless he is going up a ramp and you get him then.
Q. How do I defending 10 pool baneling with 15 pool?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Glon wrote:
You can identify whether it's a macro 10 pool if you opponent takes a hatchery (your first scouting overlord should be parked at the natural). If your opponent does not take a hatchery at a reasonable time (I will edit in the exact time stamp tomorrow, I'm tired), then immediately do NOT inject with your queens and pull both to the ramp. Build a spine in your main, at the edge of the creep closest to the ramp. If you took gas, build a baneling nest before speed. Get ready to hit some snap transfuses are banelings crash into your queens. As long as you can buy time for your own banelings to come up, you're in good shape.
Constantly sink your money into lings, and when possible, a few extra queens never hurt anyone.
You can identify whether it's a macro 10 pool if you opponent takes a hatchery (your first scouting overlord should be parked at the natural). If your opponent does not take a hatchery at a reasonable time (I will edit in the exact time stamp tomorrow, I'm tired), then immediately do NOT inject with your queens and pull both to the ramp. Build a spine in your main, at the edge of the creep closest to the ramp. If you took gas, build a baneling nest before speed. Get ready to hit some snap transfuses are banelings crash into your queens. As long as you can buy time for your own banelings to come up, you're in good shape.
Constantly sink your money into lings, and when possible, a few extra queens never hurt anyone.
Q. What do I do when they just take fast 3rd as I open gasless roach style?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
MaSsan wrote:
Optimally, you can take 3rd right as they take theirs after 4 roaches or so. As long as you don't fall too far behind in economy, your upgrade advantage as well as tech advantage(roaches) should carry you over to next phase of the game.
Optimally, you can take 3rd right as they take theirs after 4 roaches or so. As long as you don't fall too far behind in economy, your upgrade advantage as well as tech advantage(roaches) should carry you over to next phase of the game.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iir3MeG.png)
Top- Q. What is the best way to creep spread in ZvP?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Blade55555 wrote:
What I do is add my 4th queen when my third finishes. I found this a great way to spread creep well. I have so far found this to be the best way and it helps a lot verse early air since you have 4 queens already.
What I like to do in general is with my first queen inject, then instead of injecting on the next 25 energy, I lay down a creep tumor. Then I make my 4th queen out of my third hatchery and just keep creep spreading from there.
What I do is add my 4th queen when my third finishes. I found this a great way to spread creep well. I have so far found this to be the best way and it helps a lot verse early air since you have 4 queens already.
What I like to do in general is with my first queen inject, then instead of injecting on the next 25 energy, I lay down a creep tumor. Then I make my 4th queen out of my third hatchery and just keep creep spreading from there.
Q. what do i do when toss pylon blocks my natural?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Blade55555 wrote:
If protoss pylon blocks your natural 2 things you can do.
Wait for lings and then take the expansion, or take your third as an expo. Now taking the third first can be risky if the protoss is going gate first, but normally when you get pylon blocked it's going to be forge expand.
Now if you wait for lings to kill it, it's fine you have to remember he's delaying his tech just like he's delaying your expo. It evens itself out and it's not something to freak out over or react in a different way. Just play normal, take the expo a little later and you'll be fine.
If protoss pylon blocks your natural 2 things you can do.
Wait for lings and then take the expansion, or take your third as an expo. Now taking the third first can be risky if the protoss is going gate first, but normally when you get pylon blocked it's going to be forge expand.
Now if you wait for lings to kill it, it's fine you have to remember he's delaying his tech just like he's delaying your expo. It evens itself out and it's not something to freak out over or react in a different way. Just play normal, take the expo a little later and you'll be fine.
Q. How do you deal with 1 gate expand into 4 gate zealots MsC ?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Blade55555 wrote:
Scouting with lings is VERY important when facing gate expand. You can shut down a 4 gate zealot MSC by just denying probes/pylons. You should make lings, control the watch towers and the rest should be scouting for proxy pylons or hidden probes. This is the best way to shut it down.
If not roach/ling can hold it you just need to make sure you see it coming at a good time and not be caught by surprise.
Scouting with lings is VERY important when facing gate expand. You can shut down a 4 gate zealot MSC by just denying probes/pylons. You should make lings, control the watch towers and the rest should be scouting for proxy pylons or hidden probes. This is the best way to shut it down.
If not roach/ling can hold it you just need to make sure you see it coming at a good time and not be caught by surprise.
Q. How do I deal with immortal-sentry push off two base Forge Fast Expansion?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
MaSsan wrote:
I recommend opening 3 hatch build(in general Q&A Thread), go up to 55-60 drones, and then massing roaches and lings.
I recommend opening 3 hatch build(in general Q&A Thread), go up to 55-60 drones, and then massing roaches and lings.
Q. How do I deal with immortal & Voidray push off two base Forge Fast Expansion?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Blade55555 wrote:
I have only faced it twice (both from puck) and I absolutely smashed it the first time with swarmhosts + static defense. A key giveaway to it coming is when the toss player makes a stargate and robo at the same time and once you see that get swarmhosts, some static defense (mainly spores with a couple spines) and you can do roach/ling with it while using queens + spore to kill the voidrays.
I have only faced it twice (both from puck) and I absolutely smashed it the first time with swarmhosts + static defense. A key giveaway to it coming is when the toss player makes a stargate and robo at the same time and once you see that get swarmhosts, some static defense (mainly spores with a couple spines) and you can do roach/ling with it while using queens + spore to kill the voidrays.
MaSsan wrote:
Hydra+static+ lings works great too, try not to upgrade more than 1/1 and focus on producing units out first before investing for future.
Hydra+static+ lings works great too, try not to upgrade more than 1/1 and focus on producing units out first before investing for future.
Q. Should I fight to keep my third alive verse a voidray/phoenix opening?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Glon wrote:
This is correct. In every situation, there's almost no reason to lose your third. Even just pulling all of your queens and quickly throwing down 3-4 emergency spores will save it (say if it was like a 2 stargate that you didn't see). Don't forget to put down 1-2 in your main/natural though, don't want him just moving to your main and killing everything there.
Also don't forget to control the map with zerglings. If you see gateway units moving out with a probe (you already should have scoured the map for a proxy pylon), make roaches/lings. In the case of a stargate/+1 gateway aggression, roaches and queens are your friends. Zerglings tend to melt, however are great for spotting around them and harassing the proxy pylon(s) while the protoss is making his first pokes with his zealots.
This is correct. In every situation, there's almost no reason to lose your third. Even just pulling all of your queens and quickly throwing down 3-4 emergency spores will save it (say if it was like a 2 stargate that you didn't see). Don't forget to put down 1-2 in your main/natural though, don't want him just moving to your main and killing everything there.
Also don't forget to control the map with zerglings. If you see gateway units moving out with a probe (you already should have scoured the map for a proxy pylon), make roaches/lings. In the case of a stargate/+1 gateway aggression, roaches and queens are your friends. Zerglings tend to melt, however are great for spotting around them and harassing the proxy pylon(s) while the protoss is making his first pokes with his zealots.
Q. In late game ZvP how do I deal with late game warp prism harass?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
Blade55555 wrote:
Once you stop having a mobile army and are transitioning into bl/corr/infestor as well as having a bank of minerals, that is when you want to start putting static defense everywhere. I would put spores at the end of your bases so they can shoot at the warp prism and spines just a ton of spines everywhere. Make sure to remake drones when doing this!
If you do not remake drones you will fall behind economically because you will have very little minerals due to low drone count. This is very important to do as going from 80 workers to 50 is a huge difference in economy and you do not want this. Also make sure to have static defenses blocking and guarding tech structures such as infestation pit and the greater spire. There is nothing more annoying then losing your greater spire
.
Once you stop having a mobile army and are transitioning into bl/corr/infestor as well as having a bank of minerals, that is when you want to start putting static defense everywhere. I would put spores at the end of your bases so they can shoot at the warp prism and spines just a ton of spines everywhere. Make sure to remake drones when doing this!
If you do not remake drones you will fall behind economically because you will have very little minerals due to low drone count. This is very important to do as going from 80 workers to 50 is a huge difference in economy and you do not want this. Also make sure to have static defenses blocking and guarding tech structures such as infestation pit and the greater spire. There is nothing more annoying then losing your greater spire
. Q. What is 9 min hive build that hyun uses?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
BatesCsC wrote:
9 Overlord
14 Pool
16 Overlord
16 Hatch
Queen + Gas ~ (3:10)
Queen (4:00)
Speed (4:40)
Hatch - 3rd (6:00)
Queen (6:10)
Lair (6:30)
Macro Hatch (6:50)
Gas x2 (7:00)
Roach Warren (7:30)
Infestation + Gas x3 (8:00)
Hydra Den (8:10)
*Pool resources
Hydra x10 (9:00)
Hive (9:30)
Hydra range (9:40)
Evo chamber (9:50)
Roach speed/+1 ranged (10:30)
Hydra speed (11:00)
Viper x3 (11:15)
*Mass hydroaches
Attack (12:00).
Example: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=23h02m30s
9 Overlord
14 Pool
16 Overlord
16 Hatch
Queen + Gas ~ (3:10)
Queen (4:00)
Speed (4:40)
Hatch - 3rd (6:00)
Queen (6:10)
Lair (6:30)
Macro Hatch (6:50)
Gas x2 (7:00)
Roach Warren (7:30)
Infestation + Gas x3 (8:00)
Hydra Den (8:10)
*Pool resources
Hydra x10 (9:00)
Hive (9:30)
Hydra range (9:40)
Evo chamber (9:50)
Roach speed/+1 ranged (10:30)
Hydra speed (11:00)
Viper x3 (11:15)
*Mass hydroaches
Attack (12:00).
Example: http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=23h02m30s
