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On March 17 2013 15:58 Azoryen wrote:
There are big changes in the Zerg mindset and general game plan in HotS.
In WoL, Zerg had good reasons to play passively, since they had the stronger lategame. However, with the infestor nerfs and new broodlord counters, this is no longer true in HotS. In fact, Zerg seems to be the one forced to do damage before the lategame.
This is similar to what happens, for example, in TvP, with T having to to damage to P before P gets lategame deathball.
I'm not saying that changes like these can't be interesting and even refreshing, but there's one question that I don't really understand:
How exactly is Zerg supposed to do damage in the midgame??
I mean, Terran has to do damage TvP, but T has always been the harassing race and have great tools for that.
Zerg is not designed to harass neither has a strong midgame that allows for lots of pressure against sieged / walled enemies.
The best harassing unit Z have is muta I think, but don't phoenixes counter them hard and P should have them anyway if going air?? And widow mines also shut them down?
So what exactly has changed in the zerg arsenal that suddenly allows for that kind of pressure?
I'd really appreciate some good informed answers to this, with explanations refering to concrete gameplay.
I agree a lot with these points. This is what I was thinking as well. My assumption is that the late game composition of the zerg army should not be blindly broodlords corruptors infestors but including different units according the opponent's army composition (e.g. hydra/roach (or swarmhost)/viper - ultra/lings/infestors/queens etc.)
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how to deal with double pylon block at nat and 3rd? p can go nexus first and still wall of in time,..
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On March 18 2013 00:33 -iNko wrote:
how to deal with double pylon block at nat and 3rd? p can go nexus first and still wall of in time,..
Wait for your zerglings to kill the pylons then expand
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How do Z players deal with voidrays now? With the 19% DPS boost they got from HOTS to WOL (uncharged), they're just a much better unit overall; I feel like hydras just melt against them now. The options toss has with opening voidray seem very strong, everything from stargate opener into 3rd into mega-skytoss deathball to voidray 2base allins (which were already decent in WOL) seem like valid options and I don't have a good unit comp for this.
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On March 14 2013 06:24 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 05:12 crbox wrote:
hey blade I know you've been playing hots for a while...
I'm having trouble against protoss lategame when they get a really good composition. What exactly do you go for (i'd need specifics like how many vipers and stuff cause I'm lost right now.)
thanks~ Hm it's a tough composition to fight but I have killed it. Over at my guide there are a set of zvp replays which has it show casing me killing the toss deathball (mass void/colo/temp). With swarmhosts 12 is a good number, 3-5 ultra, bunch of hydras and 3-4 vipers. Although once a ton of templar are out on the field vipers aren't the best. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?77zub31pct1uibuShow nested quote +On March 14 2013 05:16 v_lm wrote:Has someone a good swarmhost build in ZvP ? The best cheese build ZvZ? Im working on burrowed roaches all-in, I think it doesnt work that well (even optimized, because of map-omniscience in ZvZ and spore that dont request evo chamber) however fake burrowed roaches all in are pretty good, because zergs overreact, 3/4 offensive roaches with burrow are always cost efficient, and like every roach opening it is pretty safe. Yes. Typical zvp 3 hatch opening and then follow the rest below. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758 look at the builds for zvp and that's my swarmhost build. here is the copy paste: 6:10 – 2 gases 6:30 – 7 minutes – a roach warren (this is up to you on when to get this) 7 minutes – evo chamber (start +1 carapace) 7:00 – get 3rd gas 7:20 to 7:30 – start lair (this will be explained later) 8:00 – get 4’th gas Lair finishes – infestation pit and hydralisk (this will be explained later) 9:00 – 5’th and 6’th gas
Hum yeah I get what you did there. I need to analyze proper composition a little more. I'm using 2 base hydra into SH contain into 4th base, then counter w/e they're doing (spire when colo). Also, sniping observer is really easy since protosses aren't used to microing them back :3
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4 Posts
On March 18 2013 00:33 -iNko wrote:
how to deal with double pylon block at nat and 3rd? p can go nexus first and still wall of in time,..
14 pool before hatchery and kill the pylons with your lings. If he's pylon blocking your expansions, his nexus will be delayed as well.
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Greetings all. Long time lurker, first time poster here looking for ZvP help in the transition to HotS. In WoL, ZvP was my favorite and best matchup, because at my skill level (diamond WoL) 95% of games featured my opponent doing a FFE into robotics, which allowed me to mass mutas/lings with a spine wall at my natural and have a lot of fun harassing and backstabbing my way to easy wins. Going 3 hatch before gas and droning freely up to the 8 minute mark became second nature.
Now in HotS, I am seeing a lot more gateway openings with early pressure, and am less comfortable in this phase of the game. The prevalence of stargate play and the decrease In robo play is also foreign to me, since I only began playing SC2 last fall. What I would like to know is how to react in the early game to certain openers, mainly gateway>core and gateway>nexus, without overdroning or making too many lings, and what to do when I scout 1/2 stargates going down. Right now I feel like my response is pretty aimless. I just get gas ASAP after scouting no FFE and make speedlings, (usually too many or too few), and put down my 3rd as soon as I see his natural go down. I feel like I need more concrete goals to work toward, though, as I really don't know when to throw down a roach warren or evo chamber, when to take more than 1 gas, when to start lair or upgrades, etc. I find I just do these things when it "feels right", but my mechanics and game sense are not strong enough for me to just play by feel alone.
Specific questions would include things like:
- if P opens with gateway first, should I take my 3rd as soon as he drops his natural, or should I drone my natural first?
- how does the pressure differ between gate>core>nexus and gate>nexus>core openings?
- how heavy does P need to pressure me in order to force roaches to defend?
- how many spines are appropriate to deal with various degrees of gateway pressure, and should I make one blindly if I scout no FFE?
- should I pull drones off gas after getting ling speed to defend? If so, when should I put them back on?
- how many queens/spores should I make if I scout 1 stargate? 2 stargates?
- are there any scenarios in which I will want to research overlord speed or burrow before starting lair?
- what kind of economy will I need before I start lair tech?
Any ofher advice for dealing with early gateway/stargate pressure without overreacting would be greatly appreciated. Keep in mind, I'm not looking for mid or late game unit compositions or tactics. I just want to feel more comfortable surviving early pressure when all I have access to are lings, queens, spines/spores, and maybe roaches if needed. I hope my questions aren't too vague. Let me know if I can elaborate on anything.
Thanks, everybody! This community has been the most helpful thing in my development as a zerg player who is new to the world of starcraft!
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Thanks for asking this Frankie, as I have similar questions. I, too, played a mass muta style in zvp and am not sure how to react to all the gate expands and early pressure builds with stargate that i have been facing.
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So I haven't gotten hots yet nor did I have access in the beta. I played WoL and was probably one of the few zergs who tried to win w/o bl/infestor simply because turtle just isn't my thing. Can zerg still be played with loads of aggression or is broodlords still the best way? (if it is I might switch to terran, speedoflightvacs and mines seems SO GOOD)
Also general way to do things in all matchups?
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On March 18 2013 08:46 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
Greetings all. Long time lurker, first time poster here looking for ZvP help in the transition to HotS. In WoL, ZvP was my favorite and best matchup, because at my skill level (diamond WoL) 95% of games featured my opponent doing a FFE into robotics, which allowed me to mass mutas/lings with a spine wall at my natural and have a lot of fun harassing and backstabbing my way to easy wins. Going 3 hatch before gas and droning freely up to the 8 minute mark became second nature.
Now in HotS, I am seeing a lot more gateway openings with early pressure, and am less comfortable in this phase of the game. The prevalence of stargate play and the decrease In robo play is also foreign to me, since I only began playing SC2 last fall. What I would like to know is how to react in the early game to certain openers, mainly gateway>core and gateway>nexus, without overdroning or making too many lings, and what to do when I scout 1/2 stargates going down. Right now I feel like my response is pretty aimless. I just get gas ASAP after scouting no FFE and make speedlings, (usually too many or too few), and put down my 3rd as soon as I see his natural go down. I feel like I need more concrete goals to work toward, though, as I really don't know when to throw down a roach warren or evo chamber, when to take more than 1 gas, when to start lair or upgrades, etc. I find I just do these things when it "feels right", but my mechanics and game sense are not strong enough for me to just play by feel alone.
Specific questions would include things like:
- if P opens with gateway first, should I take my 3rd as soon as he drops his natural, or should I drone my natural first?
- how does the pressure differ between gate>core>nexus and gate>nexus>core openings?
- how heavy does P need to pressure me in order to force roaches to defend?
- how many spines are appropriate to deal with various degrees of gateway pressure, and should I make one blindly if I scout no FFE?
- should I pull drones off gas after getting ling speed to defend? If so, when should I put them back on?
- how many queens/spores should I make if I scout 1 stargate? 2 stargates?
- are there any scenarios in which I will want to research overlord speed or burrow before starting lair?
- what kind of economy will I need before I start lair tech?
Any ofher advice for dealing with early gateway/stargate pressure without overreacting would be greatly appreciated. Keep in mind, I'm not looking for mid or late game unit compositions or tactics. I just want to feel more comfortable surviving early pressure when all I have access to are lings, queens, spines/spores, and maybe roaches if needed. I hope my questions aren't too vague. Let me know if I can elaborate on anything.
Thanks, everybody! This community has been the most helpful thing in my development as a zerg player who is new to the world of starcraft!
I've been doing 2 Base vs Protoss now.
14 Pool
16 Hatch
15 Overlord
x2 Zerglings
Extractor and then..
Queen
Start second queen asap & Hatch will pop at same time so get the 3rd queen.
24 Overlord
31 Overlord
5:55 grab two gases.
6:00 x2 Evo Chambers
Gas order goes
First 100 into Speedling
2nd 100 into Lair
next 250 into Range/Carpace upgrade.
Game varies from this point so you got to read and react to what you are seeing.
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Has anyone been taking any notes on lifes play? It would be cool if we could just get a list of random little things that people have noticed from lifes play.
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Life REALLY REALLY likes that ling/bane bust.
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So I'm coming back to zerg from protoss after seeing Life play so magnificent. He really is the best player in the world right now no questions about it. He just made zerg look the same exact dominance in WOL. Granted it's a very close game, zerg is just a very very good race.
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On March 18 2013 09:52 kuruptt wrote:
So I'm coming back to zerg from protoss after seeing Life play so magnificent. He really is the best player in the world right now no questions about it. He just made zerg look the same exact dominance in WOL. Granted it's a very close game, zerg is just a very very good race.
He is very good. I agree  His baneling busts are very powerful, if anyone can get a replay, that be awesome!
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When should I make units and when should I make drones? As a platinum zerg, I feel most of my games are complete coinflips, I drone and hope I'm not attacked. I place lings at their natural and their choke point that they have to leave to attack me, and if I see they haven't expanded by 5:30, I will make lings to prepare. Assuming I drone until my ling that's scouting the front dies, I start making units way too late to stop anything. My scouting overlords are often picked off before they see anything of value by a small group of 4-5 marines/stalkers. Using multiple overlords feels like it would be too costly to be beneficial. So, again, how can I scout my enemy or know when to make drones or units? I always feel like I'm playing blind. Thanks!
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ZvZ is my worst match up. Cause every time I get into a ZvZ it turns into a ling bling micro fest and i just am terrible at it. If I could manage to get up to roaches without dying, my chances of winning evens out. Is there anything I can do to stave off the ling/bling all-in long enough to get roaches without sustaining heavy losses?
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I switched to Zerg with the release of HOTS. After watching MLG a lot this weekend I noticed all the pros were only getting 16-18 drones per base.
What is the reason for not getting 24 like the Hatchery says is required for full saturation?
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Hello,
I'm mainly toss playe but deciding to go Zerg because i like the style. Only issue i have is. I hate ZvZ, don't know if this is thing i particullary hate o if everyone else does.
So is there any big things that should be known when playing zvz?
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On March 18 2013 23:00 Mog wrote:
I switched to Zerg with the release of HOTS. After watching MLG a lot this weekend I noticed all the pros were only getting 16-18 drones per base.
What is the reason for not getting 24 like the Hatchery says is required for full saturation?
The third worker on a mineral patch is less efficient than the first two. So you will have more efficient Ming by sending those harvesters to a new base.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mining_Minerals#Transferring_Workers
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Today I jumped back into the ladder and wanting to climb it once again since I played last time and that would probably be like a year ago or something like that give or take. Back then I was in platinum on my way to diamond and after my placement matches today I got placed in gold after got all in by protoss oracle and a roach all in the last match.
I know how I could have handled the roach all in but the oracle I am not so sure of, anybody got any tips of it? Might have been lack of scouting that made me loose those two but I still want to know a good counter build for oracle and what to look for?
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EPT
