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NonameAI
127 Posts
His zealots will rip through my lings, and stalkers will deal with mutas. Should I be getting my lair earlier? I even scouted his 7gate and couldnt hold the zealots with just lings. Oh, and why does every protoss 7gate in HoTS when skytoss is fun, includes new units, and is viable? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 14 2013 10:00 NonameAI wrote: How do i deal with a 7-gate zealot push when i've committed to mutas, and he attacks before my spire is finished? His zealots will rip through my lings, and stalkers will deal with mutas. Should I be getting my lair earlier? I even scouted his 7gate and couldnt hold the zealots with just lings. Oh, and why does every protoss 7gate in HoTS when skytoss is fun, includes new units, and is viable? Even when going mutalisks you should have a roach warren as a 7 gate was initially designed to kill zergs who tried to go mutas. Have to have that roach warren and go roach/ling. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On March 14 2013 10:00 NonameAI wrote: How do i deal with a 7-gate zealot push when i've committed to mutas, and he attacks before my spire is finished? His zealots will rip through my lings, and stalkers will deal with mutas. Should I be getting my lair earlier? I even scouted his 7gate and couldnt hold the zealots with just lings. Oh, and why does every protoss 7gate in HoTS when skytoss is fun, includes new units, and is viable? I 7 gate because I just switched to random and I'm trying to learn Protoss mechanics  | ||
peanuts
United States1225 Posts
Is it just a matter of trying to strike as soon as you can and apply pressure to them in order to make drops less viable? I've found that if I play a bit aggressively, the drops tend to come later and with less frequency. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On March 14 2013 13:32 peanutsfan1995 wrote: How do you deal with Terran drops atm? I've tried using spores, but then they just drop right before the spores and push in. Runbys don't seem to work, with all of the widow mine usage. The map where this is hurting me the most in Neo Planet S. I'm watching some Proleague VoDs to try and see if there are any great spore + spine placements that will help negate it, but then again, no one in Proleague had to deal with the HotS medivacs. Is it just a matter of trying to strike as soon as you can and apply pressure to them in order to make drops less viable? I've found that if I play a bit aggressively, the drops tend to come later and with less frequency. The best way to deal with drops is : - Static defense + Spines at each dropped base - Go mutalisk, dont rush infestors. - Take overlord speed once your mutas are out and take map control - Check the minimap often to catch drops before they arrive in your base Honestly, HOTS is way harder as zerg than before.Master WoL, I could win easily against terran when playing quite slowly (~200 APM), now against a good terran, if i'm not playing at my higher speed (~300 APM), i usually get crushed. But well that's cool, after all there is unranked if i'm tired. | ||
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laguerta
22 Posts
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MartCaunton
Netherlands1 Post
On March 14 2013 20:41 laguerta wrote: Hi I am new to Zerg and I am having trouble with ZvZ everytime I play I get owned by mutas but I dont want to use mutas myself. How to beat Zerg with no mutas? I usually go 14 gas 14 pool, get ling speed asap then i try to deny an expantion while I take my own. Then during the attack i throw down a roach warren put drones back on gass. Depending on how much lings I have left i either drone or build some more lings for defense, throw down a spine for the inevitable counter attack. If it goes well i throw down an evo get a lair and use a speed roach +1 timing to end the game. If they get muta's out it they will not have enough muta's to hold off the roach push. during this timing I also throw down a third and a hydra den. So if they do defend with mass spines and i can't break it i do a +2 roach hydra timing which usually ends the game. | ||
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ViperPL
Poland1775 Posts
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AmuseD
Netherlands133 Posts
On March 14 2013 22:00 ViperPL wrote: Ok, I'm looking for help with gold league T and P turtlers. This is getting really frustrating for me. I'm not very good (gold league), but neither are my opponents. They just sit for 15-20min on their 2 bases turtling like no tomorrow building some retarded unit compositions. I try to tech and expand while they do it, since I'm usually under minimal pressure or none at all, but after they are maxed they just march to my base and kill me. I'm thinking some early aggression is the way to go, but I don't really know many fast pressure builds or strategies. Any help would be appreciated. To this problem, what i usually do is trying to invest a bit more in scouting your opponent. You know that your opponents rescources are limited. You know that you expanded over and over so it should be that you are miles ahead in economy. Knowing this you should 'trade' with your opponent. Try to kill off his units knowing that you can instantly remake while they need more time. Through this you break your opponent piece by piece. If you want early game strats. It depends on what race you play. I'm sure the 2 gateway rush, the 6 pool or the 2 rax is still pretty efficiënt. If i oversaw what race you play my excuses. Hope i helped | ||
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ViperPL
Poland1775 Posts
On March 14 2013 22:29 AmuseD wrote: To this problem, what i usually do is trying to invest a bit more in scouting your opponent. You know that your opponents rescources are limited. You know that you expanded over and over so it should be that you are miles ahead in economy. Knowing this you should 'trade' with your opponent. Try to kill off his units knowing that you can instantly remake while they need more time. Through this you break your opponent piece by piece. If you want early game strats. It depends on what race you play. I'm sure the 2 gateway rush, the 6 pool or the 2 rax is still pretty efficiënt. If i oversaw what race you play my excuses. Hope i helped I didn't mention my race, but since it's zerg help thread I figured it's obvious  While slowly chipping at your opponent might be good idea, they are usually well fortified, making that strategy not very viable, since your loses are too great to justify that strategy. Plus, heavy focus on expanding and tech leaves you vulnerable to the sometimes happening harass attempt. T will sometimes throw a few hellions at you while P might attack you with an oracle or two. Maybe I just don't tech high enough or something, but still, I think early attacks are the way to go against that kind of players. | ||
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Thefan
France20 Posts
I've been playing a bit of hots since its release, but there's one thing i have some troubles to adapt to, the ZvZ ! Is there any viable alternative to the Mutas play in hots at this time ? Thanks everyone ! | ||
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Jumonji
France60 Posts
I'm here because i'm a bit disapointed about my performance on HOTS: I starting to believe that we (Zerg) were indeed a stupid a+click race like every flammer says. I just can do anything against protoss, i have won maybe 2 match out of 12, reaper seems to be a bit to early, mine are shreding everything i got, even raven is becoming viable. I was master on Wol, and i feel i got better recently, no more supply block, good creeping etc...but here i feel like a platine ( no offense) and it hurt my virility a little ( XD) I don't understand our new units: why blizzard would give us new weapon for the late game considering the fact that late game zerg was really (too?) strong and our early and middle slightly less efficient than the other races? So i need advice, here some problems i am encoutering and the idea that come to me to solve those problems : Mass Air or Light Air: Let's say it, i don't like hydra, not really the unit but the fact that , in my opinion, the range upgrade should be free. How to prepare a little push if you need to spend 300/300 to make a unit viable. The problem is that your push is delayed if you want to be really efficient. The problem i encouter is that when i make hydra to counter air it's quite efficient but if the protoss go MASS air it's become inefficient and all the money you spent on building them and upgrading them is lost. I feel like the T1 speed overlord is here to allow us to scout if the toss go mass or light air and give a proper answer: hydra if low count of air unit, double spire upgrade corruptor if they go for mass air and ultralisk to swap what is on the floor. Am i on the good way? Maybe blizzard should revert one of the nerf on the infested terran? Either give them back upgrade, or make the egg more tanky again. Having both would be too much, but i feel infestor spam could be a good way to support your main unit , but cause of the quadruple nerf of infestor it is no more the case. Return of terran early harass Well, on the beta i was like " oh yeah new aggresive early like in the beginning of Wol great , hots is becoming an enjoyable game". Then i felt a little depressed: map are way bigger so it's hard to scout now and to know what is coming to you. Mine drop or map on your expands are really anoying and you have to wait till t2 to get ride of them, drop are more efficient even if it's not the drop itself that problematic but the units dropped. Spider mine suit to mecha and to bio so it's hard to know what unit to make to counter. Proxy reaper is just auto gg for me, i just can't counter that. What to do so? I feel like even 14/14 build is not safe against reaper , maybe we should go 14 pool then expand like vs toss to allow early queen? But what if terran go for fast expand? We can't scout in time considering lenght of the map. Also I think i should go blindly for 1 AA tower on every base to counter mine , and drop. Anyway i don't understand why blizzard make map so big and don't patch zerg considering the fact there are more early threats to scout if the zerg want to have a chance to win. Return of the terran multi harass (finally you lazy humans!) Well the title talk by himself: multi harass return and with it multi type of harass . Once you get raven tower on your b4, you get mine droped on your b3 with hellion suicide in your b5 and terran army moving through your base. I may be overeacting but i feel like being a puching ball. The problem is that the counter are always differents. Here it think we should play like we do vs toss dt harass: 1 aa tower + 2 spine per base.Maybe i just have to get use to the new metagame and change my way of playing and my "BO". I feel like stefano being crushed by everyone cause he is not used to new units. Even him " pro scout" doesn't scount anymore and pay that the big price. Here my vision of the game: New toss and terran mechanic are an evolution to former BO so they are more at ease with this expansion. New zerg units (or lack of them) are implying total new way of playing and new form of harass imply for the zerg to go for static defense on everybases vs all race like they do. Are you experiencing the same thing as i do? Are you starting to think that maybe we were indeed a stupid a+click race and we should evolve our way of playing like a zerg do to survive? I feel that i got to master just because zerg were too strong...and it really burn my ass to feel that all these flammers were maybe right about me... | ||
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OneObsession
Germany42 Posts
i find mech very strong in zvt hots ^^' | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 15 2013 05:24 OneObsession wrote: hey guys, what do you usually play vs terran who is going mech ? i find mech very strong in zvt hots ^^' Mech I find easy to beat. Roach/hydra/swarmhost into hydra/swarmhost/ultra/viper is very strong verse mech. I have been doing this for a long time and have not struggled verse mech at all. | ||
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Shandim
4 Posts
On March 14 2013 20:41 laguerta wrote: Hi I am new to Zerg and I am having trouble with ZvZ everytime I play I get owned by mutas but I dont want to use mutas myself. How to beat Zerg with no mutas? Hi. My playstyle is similar to yours, as I don't use mutas very often. A good build I have found to protect against muta play is defensive banelings before ling speed, into hydralisks (and roaches). I'll stick to ling/bling until I grab a hydralisk den just before starting +2 range, and a roach warren slightly later (when I take a third). The reason for the defensive banes is to protect against early ling/bane aggression, but also against ling attacks into the mid game (if he goes quick muta, his only ground presence to deny your third will be lings and banes unless he goes roach warren right after spire, in which case your roach warren will be around the same time as his, plus you still have the hydras and +2 range from earlier, which scale well into the late game.) Keep in mind, I'm still figuring this build out, so find what works best for you  | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On March 15 2013 06:34 Shandim wrote: Hi. My playstyle is similar to yours, as I don't use mutas very often. A good build I have found to protect against muta play is defensive banelings before ling speed, into hydralisks (and roaches). I'll stick to ling/bling until I grab a hydralisk den just before starting +2 range, and a roach warren slightly later (when I take a third). The reason for the defensive banes is to protect against early ling/bane aggression, but also against ling attacks into the mid game (if he goes quick muta, his only ground presence to deny your third will be lings and banes unless he goes roach warren right after spire, in which case your roach warren will be around the same time as his, plus you still have the hydras and +2 range from earlier, which scale well into the late game.) Keep in mind, I'm still figuring this build out, so find what works best for you That doesn't actually work though. Mutas are actually really damn good at killing hydras, especially if you can only pump them out of a 2 base economy while the muta player is double expanding. Hydras didn't work at all against mutas in WOL, why would they in HOTS? | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On March 15 2013 06:42 Glurkenspurk wrote: That doesn't actually work though. Mutas are actually really damn good at killing hydras, especially if you can only pump them out of a 2 base economy while the muta player is double expanding. Hydras didn't work at all against mutas in WOL, why would they in HOTS? 2 base vs 3-4 base muta player will lose no matter what they build. Doesn't prove anything. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On March 15 2013 05:04 Jumonji wrote: Hello everyone, I'm here because i'm a bit disapointed about my performance on HOTS: I starting to believe that we (Zerg) were indeed a stupid a+click race like every flammer says. I just can do anything against protoss, i have won maybe 2 match out of 12, reaper seems to be a bit to early, mine are shreding everything i got, even raven is becoming viable. I was master on Wol, and i feel i got better recently, no more supply block, good creeping etc...but here i feel like a platine ( no offense) and it hurt my virility a little ( XD) Well, all your questions are answered in blade's topic : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758 To deal with terran drops, you'll have to go muta before infestors. It's way too hard and drops can destroy everything in a second. Get speed overlords while getting T2, it helps getting map control once your mutas are out, and then you can catch drops. | ||
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peanuts
United States1225 Posts
On March 15 2013 06:02 blade55555 wrote: Mech I find easy to beat. Roach/hydra/swarmhost into hydra/swarmhost/ultra/viper is very strong verse mech. I have been doing this for a long time and have not struggled verse mech at all. What's your ratio for each unit? In the few instances where I've mixed in Ultras with my roach/hydra/viper, it's usually 35% roach, 25% hydra, 10% ultra, 30% viper. I'm not really sure how to smoothly transition with swarm hosts being integrated into that as well. | ||
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Shandim
4 Posts
On March 15 2013 06:42 Glurkenspurk wrote: That doesn't actually work though. Mutas are actually really damn good at killing hydras, especially if you can only pump them out of a 2 base economy while the muta player is double expanding. Hydras didn't work at all against mutas in WOL, why would they in HOTS? They work for me because I start +1 range early and spread my hydras between bases as I follow the mutas around. I also have a spore in each mineral line and I try to avoid fighting out of the range of the spores. If he's massing mutas and I've got upgrades hydras, and we fight by a spore crawler, I will win. The only time i'll fight the mutas without spores is if I'm pressing an attack. Because I've been building the hydras for longer than he's been building the mutas, I've got a huge number of hydras with +2 range (and maybe +1 carapace) at this point and he's either got unupgraded mutas or +1 carapace mutas. With good control I can split the hydras, tank baneling hits with the roaches and hopefully continue my attack. Thanks for the feedback, though. Maybe I'll refine my build. I've only started using this since recently and it's provided some good success for me (because of my fast upgrades and good hydra control). The way you say "Mutas are actually really damn good at killing hydras" makes it sound like you're intentionally engaging mutas in the open. If he's massing mutas, split up with spores and defend your mineral lines until your upgrades set in or you've got infestors out. The 2-base versus 3-base argument is quite obvious. If you're not defensively taking a third with the ling/bling from earlier and the roaches that you produce, and you're not attacking to prevent his third, then of course you'll be behind. The idea is to transition into a fairly safe macro/economic game with roach/hydras/infestors. There are definitely other ways to get there, but as I said, this is the way that I've been having some success with. Do you have any suggestions? | ||
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