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On March 27 2013 13:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 13:44 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On March 27 2013 10:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Why the shit does ZvT have to be so damned unforgiving? With widow mines T doesnt even have to split marines anymore, just retreat then pick up and torpedo away in medivacs. Meanwhile thor air AE, mine AE, battle hellions, or ravens HSM can completely rape you if you lose focus for one second. Literally lost a 30 minute game with me on 5 bases vs 2 mining bases (even 1 for a short while) because I got hit by HSM because I was focusing on everything around the mines and injecting.
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
EDIT: Man, my ZvT APM is so much higher than for other matchups too. Average around 100apm (not fast I know) yet in ZvT I am running 130-140 Well you can't change the matchup so do things to reduce the apm required and increase your situational awareness. You want to do as many things preemptively as possible before engaging in any kind of fight. For instance inject all your hatcheries before you engage. Put down extra hatcheries if there's a chance you'll run out of larva. Learn to add new units to your control group as you make them so you don't have to go back and get them. Anything that increases your situational awareness will reduce the amount of apm you need. For instance if you see a drop coming with an overlord you can prepare for it and when it arrives you won't have to do nearly as much to deal with it. So spreading out creep and overlords, burrowed zerglings are all things you can do during down time to reduce the apm you need during the more action packed parts of the game. And weigh the pro's and cons of pressure/harrass plays. A really good example of this is when you manage to sneak a few zerglings into a protoss base. You have enough in there to distract the protoss but not enough to do real damage. If you keep microing them and lose focus on your build order you may be doing more harm then good. This goes double for later in the game when you're doing muta harrass. Your time is a resource just like minerals and gas. Spend it wisely. Stop to look back at your base. Multitasking isn't actually doing multiple things at the same time. That's impossible. You're just breaking larger tasks into smaller increments and keeping them in short term memory so you can return to them as necessary. For example you want to spread out your overlords on the map. But doing it all at once will cause you to fall behind on other important tasks. Since you don't need to complete this task immediately you can do a couple then do more later eventually you'll have full coverage. If it helps make a list and post it where you can see it of "housekeeping tasks" you can intersperse among your other more important tasks. Usually the more important ones are the ones we don't have to be reminded of but the less important ones fall by the wayside and start to add up into a loss. I have good situational awareness and mechanics. If you wait until inject is up to engage you lose the possibility to engage in a favorable position and let him get a good position on you. I know how to multitask. I just made a mistake in judgment and looked away from the fight for less than a second or two. I saw MMM, sent lings to cut off marines so that they should get hit from mines too, sent in mutas to go after mines, then went back to inject (and hotkey new queen for 5th base) and didnt see the HSM's until too late. He only had marauders/medivacs left though so I went back to do creep spread and then I got hit by a couple mines that had just come up. 100apm is pretty low for mid masters, it just gets bumped up to 130-140 because ZvT has a lot more little bits of micro involved or you lose everything instantly.
It can always be better. Maniac's response was well thought out and gave you plenty of things for any player to think about. This isn't a topic for raging, it's a topic for getting help, so if you don't want help, I fail to see why you posted here. To post a topic complaining about the matchup being unforgiving and then ignoring (Or stating you already know) the advice of a helpful TL member is not going to help you at all.
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On March 27 2013 14:23 roadrunner343 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 13:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 27 2013 13:44 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On March 27 2013 10:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Why the shit does ZvT have to be so damned unforgiving? With widow mines T doesnt even have to split marines anymore, just retreat then pick up and torpedo away in medivacs. Meanwhile thor air AE, mine AE, battle hellions, or ravens HSM can completely rape you if you lose focus for one second. Literally lost a 30 minute game with me on 5 bases vs 2 mining bases (even 1 for a short while) because I got hit by HSM because I was focusing on everything around the mines and injecting.
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
EDIT: Man, my ZvT APM is so much higher than for other matchups too. Average around 100apm (not fast I know) yet in ZvT I am running 130-140 Well you can't change the matchup so do things to reduce the apm required and increase your situational awareness. You want to do as many things preemptively as possible before engaging in any kind of fight. For instance inject all your hatcheries before you engage. Put down extra hatcheries if there's a chance you'll run out of larva. Learn to add new units to your control group as you make them so you don't have to go back and get them. Anything that increases your situational awareness will reduce the amount of apm you need. For instance if you see a drop coming with an overlord you can prepare for it and when it arrives you won't have to do nearly as much to deal with it. So spreading out creep and overlords, burrowed zerglings are all things you can do during down time to reduce the apm you need during the more action packed parts of the game. And weigh the pro's and cons of pressure/harrass plays. A really good example of this is when you manage to sneak a few zerglings into a protoss base. You have enough in there to distract the protoss but not enough to do real damage. If you keep microing them and lose focus on your build order you may be doing more harm then good. This goes double for later in the game when you're doing muta harrass. Your time is a resource just like minerals and gas. Spend it wisely. Stop to look back at your base. Multitasking isn't actually doing multiple things at the same time. That's impossible. You're just breaking larger tasks into smaller increments and keeping them in short term memory so you can return to them as necessary. For example you want to spread out your overlords on the map. But doing it all at once will cause you to fall behind on other important tasks. Since you don't need to complete this task immediately you can do a couple then do more later eventually you'll have full coverage. If it helps make a list and post it where you can see it of "housekeeping tasks" you can intersperse among your other more important tasks. Usually the more important ones are the ones we don't have to be reminded of but the less important ones fall by the wayside and start to add up into a loss. I have good situational awareness and mechanics. If you wait until inject is up to engage you lose the possibility to engage in a favorable position and let him get a good position on you. I know how to multitask. I just made a mistake in judgment and looked away from the fight for less than a second or two. I saw MMM, sent lings to cut off marines so that they should get hit from mines too, sent in mutas to go after mines, then went back to inject (and hotkey new queen for 5th base) and didnt see the HSM's until too late. He only had marauders/medivacs left though so I went back to do creep spread and then I got hit by a couple mines that had just come up. 100apm is pretty low for mid masters, it just gets bumped up to 130-140 because ZvT has a lot more little bits of micro involved or you lose everything instantly. It can always be better. Maniac's response was well thought out and gave you plenty of things for any player to think about. This isn't a topic for raging, it's a topic for getting help, so if you don't want help, I fail to see why you posted here. To post a topic complaining about the matchup being unforgiving and then ignoring (Or stating you already know) the advice of a helpful TL member is not going to help you at all.
"Why does it have to be so unforgiving" gives me the response "deal with it". Some of the advice is solid (and some not so solid, see waiting to attack until you inject) but it doesnt give any real options. He doesnt say something like "go roach/ling/bling and fast hive with vipers" or any other alternatives. Also, his advice is fairly broad and doesnt really apply to me since I know most of it (I didnt ask about dealing with harass or multitasking or drop play or any of that... I shut down his drop play completely). It will probably help other people, which is why I didnt respond with any kind of hostility towards him and merely explained my situation in that particular game.
Saying "get better" is not advice. Direct advice would be even better, such as how to engage bio/mine, or is it worth it to use lings to pull mine fire onto the bio ball when given a chance, a good earlier transition out of muta/ling/bane how to punish a T that picks up and boosts off from engagements and lets his mines do the work etc.
Basically, it is helpful for other people but not for me. No disrespect because others will likely find it helpful. Now then, are you done with telling me to not post in this topic?
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On March 27 2013 15:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 14:23 roadrunner343 wrote:On March 27 2013 13:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 27 2013 13:44 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On March 27 2013 10:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Why the shit does ZvT have to be so damned unforgiving? With widow mines T doesnt even have to split marines anymore, just retreat then pick up and torpedo away in medivacs. Meanwhile thor air AE, mine AE, battle hellions, or ravens HSM can completely rape you if you lose focus for one second. Literally lost a 30 minute game with me on 5 bases vs 2 mining bases (even 1 for a short while) because I got hit by HSM because I was focusing on everything around the mines and injecting.
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
EDIT: Man, my ZvT APM is so much higher than for other matchups too. Average around 100apm (not fast I know) yet in ZvT I am running 130-140 Well you can't change the matchup so do things to reduce the apm required and increase your situational awareness. You want to do as many things preemptively as possible before engaging in any kind of fight. For instance inject all your hatcheries before you engage. Put down extra hatcheries if there's a chance you'll run out of larva. Learn to add new units to your control group as you make them so you don't have to go back and get them. Anything that increases your situational awareness will reduce the amount of apm you need. For instance if you see a drop coming with an overlord you can prepare for it and when it arrives you won't have to do nearly as much to deal with it. So spreading out creep and overlords, burrowed zerglings are all things you can do during down time to reduce the apm you need during the more action packed parts of the game. And weigh the pro's and cons of pressure/harrass plays. A really good example of this is when you manage to sneak a few zerglings into a protoss base. You have enough in there to distract the protoss but not enough to do real damage. If you keep microing them and lose focus on your build order you may be doing more harm then good. This goes double for later in the game when you're doing muta harrass. Your time is a resource just like minerals and gas. Spend it wisely. Stop to look back at your base. Multitasking isn't actually doing multiple things at the same time. That's impossible. You're just breaking larger tasks into smaller increments and keeping them in short term memory so you can return to them as necessary. For example you want to spread out your overlords on the map. But doing it all at once will cause you to fall behind on other important tasks. Since you don't need to complete this task immediately you can do a couple then do more later eventually you'll have full coverage. If it helps make a list and post it where you can see it of "housekeeping tasks" you can intersperse among your other more important tasks. Usually the more important ones are the ones we don't have to be reminded of but the less important ones fall by the wayside and start to add up into a loss. I have good situational awareness and mechanics. If you wait until inject is up to engage you lose the possibility to engage in a favorable position and let him get a good position on you. I know how to multitask. I just made a mistake in judgment and looked away from the fight for less than a second or two. I saw MMM, sent lings to cut off marines so that they should get hit from mines too, sent in mutas to go after mines, then went back to inject (and hotkey new queen for 5th base) and didnt see the HSM's until too late. He only had marauders/medivacs left though so I went back to do creep spread and then I got hit by a couple mines that had just come up. 100apm is pretty low for mid masters, it just gets bumped up to 130-140 because ZvT has a lot more little bits of micro involved or you lose everything instantly. It can always be better. Maniac's response was well thought out and gave you plenty of things for any player to think about. This isn't a topic for raging, it's a topic for getting help, so if you don't want help, I fail to see why you posted here. To post a topic complaining about the matchup being unforgiving and then ignoring (Or stating you already know) the advice of a helpful TL member is not going to help you at all. "Why does it have to be so unforgiving" gives me the response "deal with it". Some of the advice is solid (and some not so solid, see waiting to attack until you inject) but it doesnt give any real options. He doesnt say something like "go roach/ling/bling and fast hive with vipers" or any other alternatives. Also, his advice is fairly broad and doesnt really apply to me since I know most of it (I didnt ask about dealing with harass or multitasking or drop play or any of that... I shut down his drop play completely). It will probably help other people, which is why I didnt respond with any kind of hostility towards him and merely explained my situation in that particular game. Saying "get better" is not advice. Direct advice would be even better, such as how to engage bio/mine, or is it worth it to use lings to pull mine fire onto the bio ball when given a chance, a good earlier transition out of muta/ling/bane how to punish a T that picks up and boosts off from engagements and lets his mines do the work etc. Basically, it is helpful for other people but not for me. No disrespect because others will likely find it helpful. Now then, are you done with telling me to not post in this topic?
The advice I gave was general. The examples I gave were just that examples. They are general as well. If you want me to be more specific you need to upload replays. My line of thought was that if you lost the game in 1 second while looking away to inject then you need ways to make sure you don't have to look away during crucial times. Even the most godly progamer will lose to mines and hunter seeker missles if they aren't looking at the right place at the right time.
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On March 27 2013 15:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 14:23 roadrunner343 wrote:On March 27 2013 13:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 27 2013 13:44 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On March 27 2013 10:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Why the shit does ZvT have to be so damned unforgiving? With widow mines T doesnt even have to split marines anymore, just retreat then pick up and torpedo away in medivacs. Meanwhile thor air AE, mine AE, battle hellions, or ravens HSM can completely rape you if you lose focus for one second. Literally lost a 30 minute game with me on 5 bases vs 2 mining bases (even 1 for a short while) because I got hit by HSM because I was focusing on everything around the mines and injecting.
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
EDIT: Man, my ZvT APM is so much higher than for other matchups too. Average around 100apm (not fast I know) yet in ZvT I am running 130-140 Well you can't change the matchup so do things to reduce the apm required and increase your situational awareness. You want to do as many things preemptively as possible before engaging in any kind of fight. For instance inject all your hatcheries before you engage. Put down extra hatcheries if there's a chance you'll run out of larva. Learn to add new units to your control group as you make them so you don't have to go back and get them. Anything that increases your situational awareness will reduce the amount of apm you need. For instance if you see a drop coming with an overlord you can prepare for it and when it arrives you won't have to do nearly as much to deal with it. So spreading out creep and overlords, burrowed zerglings are all things you can do during down time to reduce the apm you need during the more action packed parts of the game. And weigh the pro's and cons of pressure/harrass plays. A really good example of this is when you manage to sneak a few zerglings into a protoss base. You have enough in there to distract the protoss but not enough to do real damage. If you keep microing them and lose focus on your build order you may be doing more harm then good. This goes double for later in the game when you're doing muta harrass. Your time is a resource just like minerals and gas. Spend it wisely. Stop to look back at your base. Multitasking isn't actually doing multiple things at the same time. That's impossible. You're just breaking larger tasks into smaller increments and keeping them in short term memory so you can return to them as necessary. For example you want to spread out your overlords on the map. But doing it all at once will cause you to fall behind on other important tasks. Since you don't need to complete this task immediately you can do a couple then do more later eventually you'll have full coverage. If it helps make a list and post it where you can see it of "housekeeping tasks" you can intersperse among your other more important tasks. Usually the more important ones are the ones we don't have to be reminded of but the less important ones fall by the wayside and start to add up into a loss. I have good situational awareness and mechanics. If you wait until inject is up to engage you lose the possibility to engage in a favorable position and let him get a good position on you. I know how to multitask. I just made a mistake in judgment and looked away from the fight for less than a second or two. I saw MMM, sent lings to cut off marines so that they should get hit from mines too, sent in mutas to go after mines, then went back to inject (and hotkey new queen for 5th base) and didnt see the HSM's until too late. He only had marauders/medivacs left though so I went back to do creep spread and then I got hit by a couple mines that had just come up. 100apm is pretty low for mid masters, it just gets bumped up to 130-140 because ZvT has a lot more little bits of micro involved or you lose everything instantly. It can always be better. Maniac's response was well thought out and gave you plenty of things for any player to think about. This isn't a topic for raging, it's a topic for getting help, so if you don't want help, I fail to see why you posted here. To post a topic complaining about the matchup being unforgiving and then ignoring (Or stating you already know) the advice of a helpful TL member is not going to help you at all. "Why does it have to be so unforgiving" gives me the response "deal with it". Some of the advice is solid (and some not so solid, see waiting to attack until you inject) but it doesnt give any real options. He doesnt say something like "go roach/ling/bling and fast hive with vipers" or any other alternatives. Also, his advice is fairly broad and doesnt really apply to me since I know most of it (I didnt ask about dealing with harass or multitasking or drop play or any of that... I shut down his drop play completely). It will probably help other people, which is why I didnt respond with any kind of hostility towards him and merely explained my situation in that particular game. Saying "get better" is not advice. Direct advice would be even better, such as how to engage bio/mine, or is it worth it to use lings to pull mine fire onto the bio ball when given a chance, a good earlier transition out of muta/ling/bane how to punish a T that picks up and boosts off from engagements and lets his mines do the work etc. Basically, it is helpful for other people but not for me. No disrespect because others will likely find it helpful. Now then, are you done with telling me to not post in this topic?
Nope. I didn't tell you not to post here. I said I didn't see the point in you posting here if you don't want help. If you do want help, then you need a specific question. Specific questions get a specific answer. Posting replays helps too. Posting something like "Why is it so unforgiving?" and "RAAAAAAGE" is not a specific question, and shooting down any advice you get is not helpful. We obviously needs specifics if you want specifics, otherwise, you will get exactly what Maniac gave you, general information.
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Russian Federation50 Posts
I've got a problem with ZvZ, which seems to be the majority of my matches now. I always rush mutas with minimal defense (I try to scout for bust and that's something I'm working on, but that's not the problem anyway).
However, sometimes the opponent just masses roaches instead, and gets several spores on each base. So about the time my mutas are out, he just moves out with a bunch of roaches and sacrifices them to destroy my third before my mutas can kill all the roaches. I don't have enough mutas yet to kill spores safely so I can't retaliate, and counterattacking with lings wouldn't be cost effective at all. From there on he just goes roach/hydra with one base advantage, so its harder for me to amass enough mutas to win. What should I do against that?
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On March 27 2013 17:24 d07.RiV wrote:
I've got a problem with ZvZ, which seems to be the majority of my matches now. I always rush mutas with minimal defense (I try to scout for bust and that's something I'm working on, but that's not the problem anyway).
However, sometimes the opponent just masses roaches instead, and gets several spores on each base. So about the time my mutas are out, he just moves out with a bunch of roaches and sacrifices them to destroy my third before my mutas can kill all the roaches. I don't have enough mutas yet to kill spores safely so I can't retaliate, and counterattacking with lings wouldn't be cost effective at all. From there on he just goes roach/hydra with one base advantage, so its harder for me to amass enough mutas to win. What should I do against that?
Same thing you did in WoL when rushing mutas: get some spines when you see he's going roaches. Buy time for your mutas to pop with the threat of ling counter attacks. When he moves out take potshots with mutas. If he doesn't manage to kill your third, he's dead. Also try denying his third with some lings.
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Russian Federation50 Posts
Same thing you did in WoL when rushing mutas: get some spines when you see he's going roaches. Buy time for your mutas to pop with the threat of ling counter attacks. When he moves out take potshots with mutas. If he doesn't manage to kill your third, he's dead. Also try denying his third with some lings.
I didn't play zerg in WoL so bear with me ;d
Anyway, I can't counter attack with lings efficiently when he already has a decent amount of roaches; I'd also need a crazy amount of spines on both natural and third to prevent him from taking those out with the ~20 roaches he got. Even when I follow the roaches all the way from his base to mine with mutas, he still has enough left to kill the hatchery. You think using my links to counterattack would be more effective than having them assist vs roach push?
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A thought popped into my head and I thought I'll just throw it here, now that spines block lings and take up a full movement square, Can you block most ramps with a hatch and single spine at the top?
I remember messing around with in-base hatch openings in ZvZ when I was just starting in SC2 till I decided they weren't worth it.
If you can contain with it, it might be worth a second look, a way to get an economic boost or all-in due to increased production without losing to 10pool.
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On March 27 2013 18:54 IcemanAsi wrote:...now that spines block lings and take up a full movement square...
Do they? O.o
Has anyone fully tested this, or is there a patchnote about this? This would certainly explain why my units have been getting trapped in base more often than before.
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HotS Beta #7
Spine Crawler
This unit now completely blocks pathing when placed next to other structures, including other Spine Crawlers.
Zerglings and other small units can no longer squeeze in between Spine Crawlers.
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On March 27 2013 18:47 d07.RiV wrote:Show nested quote +Same thing you did in WoL when rushing mutas: get some spines when you see he's going roaches. Buy time for your mutas to pop with the threat of ling counter attacks. When he moves out take potshots with mutas. If he doesn't manage to kill your third, he's dead. Also try denying his third with some lings. I didn't play zerg in WoL so bear with me ;d Anyway, I can't counter attack with lings efficiently when he already has a decent amount of roaches; I'd also need a crazy amount of spines on both natural and third to prevent him from taking those out with the ~20 roaches he got. Even when I follow the roaches all the way from his base to mine with mutas, he still has enough left to kill the hatchery. You think using my links to counterattack would be more effective than having them assist vs roach push?
If the threat of counterattacks means he leaves behind a few roaches, great! That means he has less roaches to attack you with. When you see him move out, try to poke in to cause him to turn around. If he doesn't, and has roaches there, just run back to your 3rd. Lings are fast. Your mutas should at least be able to kill 5+ roaches while he walks to your third. Your lings, 2-3 spines and mutas should be able to finish off his roaches before they kill the hatch.
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On March 27 2013 18:47 d07.RiV wrote:Show nested quote +Same thing you did in WoL when rushing mutas: get some spines when you see he's going roaches. Buy time for your mutas to pop with the threat of ling counter attacks. When he moves out take potshots with mutas. If he doesn't manage to kill your third, he's dead. Also try denying his third with some lings. I didn't play zerg in WoL so bear with me ;d Anyway, I can't counter attack with lings efficiently when he already has a decent amount of roaches; I'd also need a crazy amount of spines on both natural and third to prevent him from taking those out with the ~20 roaches he got. Even when I follow the roaches all the way from his base to mine with mutas, he still has enough left to kill the hatchery. You think using my links to counterattack would be more effective than having them assist vs roach push?
A lot of times you need the lings to buy just a little bit of time. So when you see a roach army push out, run lings into his main to force the roaches back. That little bit if time is often enough to make the difference. Spines go in your natural, you can't defend both your third and natural so if the third is going to die than let it die, just make sure it is a one way trip for the roaches. Being on even bases still favor you. If the roach player took a fast third(6 min), it isn't really possible to do that big pre spire roach push. If they took a later third your ling counter is able to force a cancel.
Edit: I assume you are talking about two base lair roach attacks and not three base. Roach pushes after a fast third against mutas are really really risky and shouldn't ever work since you really don't have a lot of roaches. 2 base pushes can be pretty strong though especially uf they move out before you have mutas out.
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How do I stop a protoss from just stomping me with his deathball? I try to deny expansions, but the mothership core and their main army make it much harder to do a decent ling run-by without wasting a ton of minerals.
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is 14/14 still standard? could i open with it every match up? i just want to learn one standard build i can use for all match ups. i am in gold league so i think i could still win with it what do you guys think/?
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On March 28 2013 02:38 obis wrote:
is 14/14 still standard? could i open with it every match up? i just want to learn one standard build i can use for all match ups. i am in gold league so i think i could still win with it what do you guys think/?
You can get builds for all match up here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758
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On March 27 2013 16:59 roadrunner343 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 15:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 27 2013 14:23 roadrunner343 wrote:On March 27 2013 13:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 27 2013 13:44 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On March 27 2013 10:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Why the shit does ZvT have to be so damned unforgiving? With widow mines T doesnt even have to split marines anymore, just retreat then pick up and torpedo away in medivacs. Meanwhile thor air AE, mine AE, battle hellions, or ravens HSM can completely rape you if you lose focus for one second. Literally lost a 30 minute game with me on 5 bases vs 2 mining bases (even 1 for a short while) because I got hit by HSM because I was focusing on everything around the mines and injecting.
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
EDIT: Man, my ZvT APM is so much higher than for other matchups too. Average around 100apm (not fast I know) yet in ZvT I am running 130-140 Well you can't change the matchup so do things to reduce the apm required and increase your situational awareness. You want to do as many things preemptively as possible before engaging in any kind of fight. For instance inject all your hatcheries before you engage. Put down extra hatcheries if there's a chance you'll run out of larva. Learn to add new units to your control group as you make them so you don't have to go back and get them. Anything that increases your situational awareness will reduce the amount of apm you need. For instance if you see a drop coming with an overlord you can prepare for it and when it arrives you won't have to do nearly as much to deal with it. So spreading out creep and overlords, burrowed zerglings are all things you can do during down time to reduce the apm you need during the more action packed parts of the game. And weigh the pro's and cons of pressure/harrass plays. A really good example of this is when you manage to sneak a few zerglings into a protoss base. You have enough in there to distract the protoss but not enough to do real damage. If you keep microing them and lose focus on your build order you may be doing more harm then good. This goes double for later in the game when you're doing muta harrass. Your time is a resource just like minerals and gas. Spend it wisely. Stop to look back at your base. Multitasking isn't actually doing multiple things at the same time. That's impossible. You're just breaking larger tasks into smaller increments and keeping them in short term memory so you can return to them as necessary. For example you want to spread out your overlords on the map. But doing it all at once will cause you to fall behind on other important tasks. Since you don't need to complete this task immediately you can do a couple then do more later eventually you'll have full coverage. If it helps make a list and post it where you can see it of "housekeeping tasks" you can intersperse among your other more important tasks. Usually the more important ones are the ones we don't have to be reminded of but the less important ones fall by the wayside and start to add up into a loss. I have good situational awareness and mechanics. If you wait until inject is up to engage you lose the possibility to engage in a favorable position and let him get a good position on you. I know how to multitask. I just made a mistake in judgment and looked away from the fight for less than a second or two. I saw MMM, sent lings to cut off marines so that they should get hit from mines too, sent in mutas to go after mines, then went back to inject (and hotkey new queen for 5th base) and didnt see the HSM's until too late. He only had marauders/medivacs left though so I went back to do creep spread and then I got hit by a couple mines that had just come up. 100apm is pretty low for mid masters, it just gets bumped up to 130-140 because ZvT has a lot more little bits of micro involved or you lose everything instantly. It can always be better. Maniac's response was well thought out and gave you plenty of things for any player to think about. This isn't a topic for raging, it's a topic for getting help, so if you don't want help, I fail to see why you posted here. To post a topic complaining about the matchup being unforgiving and then ignoring (Or stating you already know) the advice of a helpful TL member is not going to help you at all. "Why does it have to be so unforgiving" gives me the response "deal with it". Some of the advice is solid (and some not so solid, see waiting to attack until you inject) but it doesnt give any real options. He doesnt say something like "go roach/ling/bling and fast hive with vipers" or any other alternatives. Also, his advice is fairly broad and doesnt really apply to me since I know most of it (I didnt ask about dealing with harass or multitasking or drop play or any of that... I shut down his drop play completely). It will probably help other people, which is why I didnt respond with any kind of hostility towards him and merely explained my situation in that particular game. Saying "get better" is not advice. Direct advice would be even better, such as how to engage bio/mine, or is it worth it to use lings to pull mine fire onto the bio ball when given a chance, a good earlier transition out of muta/ling/bane how to punish a T that picks up and boosts off from engagements and lets his mines do the work etc. Basically, it is helpful for other people but not for me. No disrespect because others will likely find it helpful. Now then, are you done with telling me to not post in this topic? Nope. I didn't tell you not to post here. I said I didn't see the point in you posting here if you don't want help. If you do want help, then you need a specific question. Specific questions get a specific answer. Posting replays helps too. Posting something like "Why is it so unforgiving?" and "RAAAAAAGE" is not a specific question, and shooting down any advice you get is not helpful. We obviously needs specifics if you want specifics, otherwise, you will get exactly what Maniac gave you, general information.
Different people would respond in different ways. Personally, when I see a general question that I want to answer I ask questions back at that person to find out specifics so that I can give specific answers. That is just me though. Pardon me for venting, but I didnt shoot down the advice. I am not going to respond to you anymore since you clearly hate any posting that is remotely off-topic except to tell me that I am posting slightly off-topic.
On March 27 2013 15:32 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 15:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 27 2013 14:23 roadrunner343 wrote:On March 27 2013 13:57 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 27 2013 13:44 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On March 27 2013 10:50 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Why the shit does ZvT have to be so damned unforgiving? With widow mines T doesnt even have to split marines anymore, just retreat then pick up and torpedo away in medivacs. Meanwhile thor air AE, mine AE, battle hellions, or ravens HSM can completely rape you if you lose focus for one second. Literally lost a 30 minute game with me on 5 bases vs 2 mining bases (even 1 for a short while) because I got hit by HSM because I was focusing on everything around the mines and injecting.
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
EDIT: Man, my ZvT APM is so much higher than for other matchups too. Average around 100apm (not fast I know) yet in ZvT I am running 130-140 Well you can't change the matchup so do things to reduce the apm required and increase your situational awareness. You want to do as many things preemptively as possible before engaging in any kind of fight. For instance inject all your hatcheries before you engage. Put down extra hatcheries if there's a chance you'll run out of larva. Learn to add new units to your control group as you make them so you don't have to go back and get them. Anything that increases your situational awareness will reduce the amount of apm you need. For instance if you see a drop coming with an overlord you can prepare for it and when it arrives you won't have to do nearly as much to deal with it. So spreading out creep and overlords, burrowed zerglings are all things you can do during down time to reduce the apm you need during the more action packed parts of the game. And weigh the pro's and cons of pressure/harrass plays. A really good example of this is when you manage to sneak a few zerglings into a protoss base. You have enough in there to distract the protoss but not enough to do real damage. If you keep microing them and lose focus on your build order you may be doing more harm then good. This goes double for later in the game when you're doing muta harrass. Your time is a resource just like minerals and gas. Spend it wisely. Stop to look back at your base. Multitasking isn't actually doing multiple things at the same time. That's impossible. You're just breaking larger tasks into smaller increments and keeping them in short term memory so you can return to them as necessary. For example you want to spread out your overlords on the map. But doing it all at once will cause you to fall behind on other important tasks. Since you don't need to complete this task immediately you can do a couple then do more later eventually you'll have full coverage. If it helps make a list and post it where you can see it of "housekeeping tasks" you can intersperse among your other more important tasks. Usually the more important ones are the ones we don't have to be reminded of but the less important ones fall by the wayside and start to add up into a loss. I have good situational awareness and mechanics. If you wait until inject is up to engage you lose the possibility to engage in a favorable position and let him get a good position on you. I know how to multitask. I just made a mistake in judgment and looked away from the fight for less than a second or two. I saw MMM, sent lings to cut off marines so that they should get hit from mines too, sent in mutas to go after mines, then went back to inject (and hotkey new queen for 5th base) and didnt see the HSM's until too late. He only had marauders/medivacs left though so I went back to do creep spread and then I got hit by a couple mines that had just come up. 100apm is pretty low for mid masters, it just gets bumped up to 130-140 because ZvT has a lot more little bits of micro involved or you lose everything instantly. It can always be better. Maniac's response was well thought out and gave you plenty of things for any player to think about. This isn't a topic for raging, it's a topic for getting help, so if you don't want help, I fail to see why you posted here. To post a topic complaining about the matchup being unforgiving and then ignoring (Or stating you already know) the advice of a helpful TL member is not going to help you at all. "Why does it have to be so unforgiving" gives me the response "deal with it". Some of the advice is solid (and some not so solid, see waiting to attack until you inject) but it doesnt give any real options. He doesnt say something like "go roach/ling/bling and fast hive with vipers" or any other alternatives. Also, his advice is fairly broad and doesnt really apply to me since I know most of it (I didnt ask about dealing with harass or multitasking or drop play or any of that... I shut down his drop play completely). It will probably help other people, which is why I didnt respond with any kind of hostility towards him and merely explained my situation in that particular game. Saying "get better" is not advice. Direct advice would be even better, such as how to engage bio/mine, or is it worth it to use lings to pull mine fire onto the bio ball when given a chance, a good earlier transition out of muta/ling/bane how to punish a T that picks up and boosts off from engagements and lets his mines do the work etc. Basically, it is helpful for other people but not for me. No disrespect because others will likely find it helpful. Now then, are you done with telling me to not post in this topic? The advice I gave was general. The examples I gave were just that examples. They are general as well. If you want me to be more specific you need to upload replays. My line of thought was that if you lost the game in 1 second while looking away to inject then you need ways to make sure you don't have to look away during crucial times. Even the most godly progamer will lose to mines and hunter seeker missles if they aren't looking at the right place at the right time.
And welcome to why I was venting. 30+ minute match a mistake is bound to happen. I went nestea and stayed on lair and my mistake happened.
In other news, what should Z do against raven/mine/bio? Ravens HSM are like aggressive mines that prevent engaging, mines prevent engaging, all the while the bio pushes forward.
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On March 27 2013 18:54 IcemanAsi wrote:
A thought popped into my head and I thought I'll just throw it here, now that spines block lings and take up a full movement square, Can you block most ramps with a hatch and single spine at the top?
I remember messing around with in-base hatch openings in ZvZ when I was just starting in SC2 till I decided they weren't worth it.
If you can contain with it, it might be worth a second look, a way to get an economic boost or all-in due to increased production without losing to 10pool.
Its true it does but there's a reason protoss and terran don't put bunkers or cannons as part of their wall. Relative to other buildings they are low health and you lose your damage if they get destroyed and they are easily reached when placed in the front. Walling at your ramp is problematic because you can't expand. There are very few one base all in's that are a big threat in zvz. In my experience an evo chamber wall at your natural is the best way to do it. It should go down around 6:00 to 6:30 and on some maps you need to be very quick to spread creep so you can complete it. That denies most zergling/baneling allin's but you have to be very sure it's coming or you can't do it cost effectively.
My advice is if you want to do an economic opening that doesn't lose to a 10 pool do a 15 pool. That works for me.
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In zvz what is better for muta, +1/+1 or 0/+2? I cant find an updated unit tester.
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I heard the best upgrades for mutas in ZvZ are in this order:
1. carapace
2. attack
3. carapace
4. attack
Is that right?
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On March 28 2013 07:29 Tenda wrote:
In zvz what is better for muta, +1/+1 or 0/+2? I cant find an updated unit tester.
I don't know the answer to this but you can get 1/1 faster and cheaper than 0/2. Which should give a big advantage at some point in the game against someone going 0/2.
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EPT
