EPTWell written guide though.
[G] The ultimate TvP all in - 11/11 rax metagame exploitat…
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
Well written guide though. | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
On April 27 2012 14:05 Stoopid0boi wrote: Don't understand what u mean by lol u think sentries beat this... What do you do if they ff the ramp? In the scenario where the toss went zealot sentry sentry, wouldn't it make your attack useless? Secondly, just want to say one thing about "all in cheesy builds". There was once a time where people played a game for enjoyment. I agree that winning makes the game more enjoyable, but I also say that I like playing the game more than just making workers for more than half the game. I agree this build would be great for a best of x tournament, but how many ppl on tl actually plays in tournaments that don't have a 11/11 build in their arsenal? you will chain 2 forcefields max, after that you're dead. you need stalkers to hold this sentries are useless unless the terran is retarded and misses his timing, but considering he's pushing out at 4:10 he has a pretty good window. marine scv all-in isn't exactly the newest build on the block, it's been around forever and the noob response was always "lol just get sentries and ff" because they have no sense of timing. that's why they die while this guy sits at high masters, and he's not the only one who gets away with it. On April 27 2012 18:30 gillon wrote: This is a standard 11/11 used in TvP. It doesn't work versus people with decent probe micro. That's like everyone below grandmasters mmr On April 27 2012 19:04 Wurstbrot wrote: Why people make all these threads about these allins?! They make the ladder a terrible experience. because it makes you better as a player, a lot of people just fail to see it | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
What it is: A guide, and a good description of where to proxy barracks in a proxy 2rax vs. Protoss. It takes advantage of Protoss FE and the ability to fake a more popular build. | ||
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
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hersenen
Belize176 Posts
http://drop.sc/129313 <--MMA doing this build vs Feast from IEM. Also I'd say LastShadow's mech in TvP is more revolutionary than this, and that's still a long shot from a "revolution". Maxed out thor+bc+ghost is pretty damn awesome though. | ||
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CluEleSs_UK
United Kingdom583 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:08 L3g3nd_ wrote: This is in no way a meta game revolution, stuff like this becomes popular, then protoss start scouting for it and preparing for it and it goes away after a week or 2, a cheesy all in build will NEVER be a catalyst for a game revolution 1-1-1 was pretty significant. Doesn't this lose hard to Nexus Forge Fast Expand, though? Cannons with a little bit of Probe support are pretty good. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On April 27 2012 19:50 Forbidden17 wrote: because it makes you better as a player, a lot of people just fail to see it Let me disagree about that sir. NO! | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
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Rokit5
236 Posts
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oMNY.SEA
Australia47 Posts
On April 27 2012 19:50 Forbidden17 wrote: because it makes you better as a player, a lot of people just fail to see it Honestly, this is the most amusing thing ever. I cant believe several people will sit here and constantly defend this guide. We know the build will win on ladder 8 games out of 10 for a -little while- (if it gets popular at all, it wont take protoss long to adjust their scouting/reaction). It barely gives you any decent practice so dont pretend it does, it gives minor micro training at best. So like i said before, people using this build arent really getting any better while they train their opponents to defeat their pathetic cheeses. I cant believe anyone using this build on ladder is playing the game for anything more than a few laughs, and playing a build like this will certainly NOT help much in making you a better player so please dont listen to the quoted poster if you are just starting out with sc2. | ||
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lahara
Germany140 Posts
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BasicProdigy
Canada1 Post
On April 27 2012 20:08 L3g3nd_ wrote: This is in no way a meta game revolution, stuff like this becomes popular, then protoss start scouting for it and preparing for it and it goes away after a week or 2, a cheesy all in build will NEVER be a catalyst for a game revolution What you said contradicts yourself. Making the Protos start scouting for it and preparing for it does change the game in small ways. For instance not knowing whether or not your opponent is 1 rax FE or all in-ing you will force you to adapt a strategy that deals with both effectively. Perhaps this is the answer Terrans have to change the game enough to be able expand faster because the Protos player is now scared of some crazy all-in and becomes less greedy, gaining us a much quicker expansion than the current metagame. | ||
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offal
6 Posts
Thank you for your feedback and pieces of advice. I'd like to add few points to the guide and answer few questions : 1. First I added three replays to the guide : vs mTwUnderdark - Metalopolis : ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-261921.jpg) vs BabyKnight - Shattered Temple : ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-261922.jpg) vs RotterdaM - Scrap Station, this replays shows how useful positionning + "hold position" on scvs impacts the fight. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-261923.jpg) At that time, the build was not optimised yet. Still it worked very well. Got quite easy wins there. To me, it proves that, when optimized, this build is even stronger and harder for Protoss players to beat it. 2. Some people argue any good Protoss player would count the number of scvs. That's wrong. The only thing they want to scout is whether the Terran player took his gas or not. If any good Protoss would count the number of scvs, I would never get 91% wins with this build. Why ? Because if they see you took gas, they assume you'll do an early agression (marines/maraudeurs push) or an all in (1/1/1). No gas means no agression in their frame of mind. This is why my build counters the actual metagame. No way they assume you're gonna all in them. 3. Even if the Protoss player knows you're gonna all in them with this specific build, that won't make them win. Your % of winning the game is still very high. The reason is quite simple : with the current metagame, most Protoss players go for 12 gate, and even more often for 13 gate. They do so because you can't play on clos positions anymore, and the maps are very big now. All this favours macro openings. The only build that would insure them a high % win against this all in is 11 gate, which is totally unlikely to happen. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
On April 27 2012 23:39 oMNY.SEA wrote: Honestly, this is the most amusing thing ever. I cant believe several people will sit here and constantly defend this guide. We know the build will win on ladder 8 games out of 10 for a -little while- (if it gets popular at all, it wont take protoss long to adjust their scouting/reaction). It barely gives you any decent practice so dont pretend it does, it gives minor micro training at best. So like i said before, people using this build arent really getting any better while they train their opponents to defeat their pathetic cheeses. I cant believe anyone using this build on ladder is playing the game for anything more than a few laughs, and playing a build like this will certainly NOT help much in making you a better player so please dont listen to the quoted poster if you are just starting out with sc2. All-ins are part of the game If your opponents focus too much on lategame playing the "real way", then if you are a serious player (and assuming you're not an idiot), you will take advantage of that by all-in'ing or cheesing. How can you not understand this? By training opponents to learn how to deal with this, it makes them better players as well. As the one performing it, you get a nice cheese you can throw out once in a while, especially if you expect him to be going nexus first or such. | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On April 26 2012 11:41 NrGmonk wrote: This is a nice, detailed guide. I have a few questions/concerns. What do you do when a protoss walls off his main with 2 gateways? You also don't take into account the very popular Nexus into forge build that's been popping up lately. Also, I don't like the misleading ambiguous title. Why don't you change the title to "[G]TvP proxy 11/11 marine SCV all-in" or something? | ||
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terranuapart
Canada67 Posts
On April 28 2012 04:27 offal wrote: Hi there, Thank you for your feedback and pieces of advice. I'd like to add few points to the guide and answer few questions : 1. First I added three replays to the guide : vs mTwUnderdark - Metalopolis : vs BabyKnight - Shattered Temple : vs RotterdaM - Scrap Station, this replays shows how useful positionning + "hold position" on scvs impacts the fight. At that time, the build was not optimised yet. Still it worked very well. Got quite easy wins there. To me, it proves that, when optimized, this build is even stronger and harder for Protoss players to beat it. 2. Some people argue any good Protoss player would count the number of scvs. That's wrong. The only thing they want to scout is whether the Terran player took his gas or not. If any good Protoss would count the number of scvs, I would never get 91% wins with this build. Why ? Because if they see you took gas, they assume you'll do an early agression (marines/maraudeurs push) or an all in (1/1/1). No gas means no agression in their frame of mind. This is why my build counters the actual metagame. No way they assume you're gonna all in them. 3. Even if the Protoss player knows you're gonna all in them with this specific build, that won't make them win. Your % of winning the game is still very high. The reason is quite simple : with the current metagame, most Protoss players go for 12 gate, and even more often for 13 gate. They do so because you can't play on clos positions anymore, and the maps are very big now. All this favours macro openings. The only build that would insure them a high % win against this all in is 11 gate, which is totally unlikely to happen. youre obviously playing vs shit protosses then? seeing an early rax should be a hint and its super easy to take a glance at your saturation and figure out whats coming. Not to mention the nexus - forge will completely counter this .. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On April 28 2012 15:00 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Why don't you change the title to "[G]TvP proxy 11/11 marine SCV all-in" or something? Didn't have mod powers yesterday and would rather the OP agree on the title change before forcing him to change it. | ||
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Noruxas
Netherlands129 Posts
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