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On May 04 2012 00:57 YosHGo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:39 krylon wrote:
For everyone complaining about it being mislabeled as a meta game revolution, maybe you don't quite understand. If by reading this guide a certain percentage of Terrans on the ladder begin to use this build with great frequency Protoss in general as a race will have to start playing less greedy. The meta game for P is EXTREME greed because of the strength of getting warpgate JUST in time to start warping reinforcments against pressure builds like 2 rax. Just the potential of an earlier timing attack by T will eventually shift the meta game towards a more defensive protoss early game.
Most people her are thinking far to much about the specific (garnering quick wins) but not about the general (forcing P as a race to change their early game mindset). Sure if you knonw this build is coming then you have a much higher chance of defending it, lowering the tangible win rate of a T using the build. But the real cost is seen when P are worrying about this build and delaying expanisions, upgrades, or other hits to their macro when the build isn't coming. Sometimes it is the threat of a build, not the build it self that changes the meta game. Oh yeah extreme greed its not like we are doing 3 nexuses before additional production building and hold fine with it right ?
Again, you fail to understand the concept of playing within a marginal and statistical advantage and applying the general to the specific rather than the other way around. No of course no one is going three nex before gate. However, this is obviously a statistical extreme and truly warrants almost no discussion. Realistic builds which provide a smaller margin of advantage but also lower the margin of risk such as nex first, 1 gate FE with chronoed probes instead of gateway units or warp gate, one of these new forge builds will all be affected and have their utility diminished because of the risk of this 11/11 proxy build. The fact that you can only think about Starcraft on a game by game basis hurts your analysis of the game and makes your contribution to the discussion fairly pointless.
edit: spelled analysis wrong
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On May 04 2012 01:59 sieksdekciw wrote:
This guide is just in time for the changes that come with the next patch. I guess cheese nowadays is the only reliable option to beat toss and zerg. Good guide, I stopped playing forever today because of Blizzards decision to remove terran players from the game for good, but its nice to know that there are still some terrans that try to adapt their game to the screaming imbalance that is toss. However, seeing how things are progressing, this build will soon be outdated cause Blizzard plan for next patch to make barracks build time 120 secs and requiring engi bay.
Can we get a link for that please?
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Toss here, I don't understand the necessity of walling the probe in. The simplest thing to do if your probe is walled in is to count scvs. With a standard 15/16 OC, there should be at most 2 single miner patches (1 scout, 1 builder, with this build there are about 3 less scvs and 1 out on the map, so thats about 4 single miner patches). So by walling in the probe, you invite the toss to count your scvs and deduce your build. If you just let them take a circuit and run out (since the gas count if the first thing to check), they may not do this, instead concentrating on dodging the marine. If you wall the probe in, you reveal your build immediately, whereas if the probe spots it as it moves out, it drastically cuts down the reaction time available to the protoss (especially if seen from a xel naga tower as opposed to just outside the terran's natural). After guessing the build, its a second gate/ forge and a wall off for an almost guaranteed win.
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On May 04 2012 03:31 krylon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:59 sieksdekciw wrote:
This guide is just in time for the changes that come with the next patch. I guess cheese nowadays is the only reliable option to beat toss and zerg. Good guide, I stopped playing forever today because of Blizzards decision to remove terran players from the game for good, but its nice to know that there are still some terrans that try to adapt their game to the screaming imbalance that is toss. However, seeing how things are progressing, this build will soon be outdated cause Blizzard plan for next patch to make barracks build time 120 secs and requiring engi bay. Can we get a link for that please?
It's all over TL recently:
Here are the threads:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332618
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334423
The next patch info is scientifically inferred studying trends in previous patches.
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On May 04 2012 02:35 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:18 Severedevil wrote:
In my experience, you can do a similar build which is not all-in and is even harder to scout, by going 12/14 rax and only pulling half your SCvs with the attack. That way, you never have to cut SCVs. Isn't half of your scv.s all in. I don't see how you could go back to normal game after loosing that much.
You have to do damage, but you don't have to break the opponent. Especially if you don't lose all your attacking units.
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On May 04 2012 04:38 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:31 krylon wrote:On May 04 2012 01:59 sieksdekciw wrote:
This guide is just in time for the changes that come with the next patch. I guess cheese nowadays is the only reliable option to beat toss and zerg. Good guide, I stopped playing forever today because of Blizzards decision to remove terran players from the game for good, but its nice to know that there are still some terrans that try to adapt their game to the screaming imbalance that is toss. However, seeing how things are progressing, this build will soon be outdated cause Blizzard plan for next patch to make barracks build time 120 secs and requiring engi bay. Can we get a link for that please? It's all over TL recently: Here are the threads: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332618http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334423The next patch info is scientifically inferred studying trends in previous patches.
Sorry, but at quick glances of OPs on those threads I see nothing about the aformentioned nerfs to barracks build time and engi before barracks. Am i retarded and mis read some heavy sarcasm or are these mentioned elsewhere? The indications I saw were that T is in a good place and everyone else is fairly good too nad very slight tweaks need to be made.
edit: furthermore I don't see any of the builds being game breaking in anyway at all...
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On May 04 2012 05:22 krylon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:38 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 04 2012 03:31 krylon wrote:On May 04 2012 01:59 sieksdekciw wrote:
This guide is just in time for the changes that come with the next patch. I guess cheese nowadays is the only reliable option to beat toss and zerg. Good guide, I stopped playing forever today because of Blizzards decision to remove terran players from the game for good, but its nice to know that there are still some terrans that try to adapt their game to the screaming imbalance that is toss. However, seeing how things are progressing, this build will soon be outdated cause Blizzard plan for next patch to make barracks build time 120 secs and requiring engi bay. Can we get a link for that please? It's all over TL recently: Here are the threads: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332618http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334423The next patch info is scientifically inferred studying trends in previous patches. Sorry, but at quick glances of OPs on those threads I see nothing about the aformentioned nerfs to barracks build time and engi before barracks. Am i retarded and mis read some heavy sarcasm or are these mentioned elsewhere? The indications I saw were that T is in a good place and everyone else is fairly good too nad very slight tweaks need to be made. edit: furthermore I don't see any of the builds being game breaking in anyway at all...
Hes whining and his tissue is sarcasm
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On May 04 2012 05:48 chestnutcc wrote:
Hes whining and his tissue is sarcasm
I actually lol'ed. Thanks for the clarification. In terms of the actual nerfs, if you can call them that, I mean come one. These are game changes that at absolute worst affect the highest level of play SLIGHTLY.
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On May 04 2012 04:11 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss here, I don't understand the necessity of walling the probe in. The simplest thing to do if your probe is walled in is to count scvs. With a standard 15/16 OC, there should be at most 2 single miner patches (1 scout, 1 builder, with this build there are about 3 less scvs and 1 out on the map, so thats about 4 single miner patches). So by walling in the probe, you invite the toss to count your scvs and deduce your build. If you just let them take a circuit and run out (since the gas count if the first thing to check), they may not do this, instead concentrating on dodging the marine. If you wall the probe in, you reveal your build immediately, whereas if the probe spots it as it moves out, it drastically cuts down the reaction time available to the protoss (especially if seen from a xel naga tower as opposed to just outside the terran's natural). After guessing the build, its a second gate/ forge and a wall off for an almost guaranteed win.
This is the reason i have a problem with this goddamn guide. And yes, all of you arguing that this is a "Metagame Revolution" can all rest in peace knowing you are correct, this will indeed force protoss to count SCV's on their first scout. (Holy SHIT!)
(Queue the post in TL Strategy SC2 detailing the revolutionary way we can use CC load up to hide our SCV count, further allowing us to pull off another stupid cheese until protoss realises they can arrive earlier and stay in the terran base until the marine pops to check if OC is delayed.)
The quoted poster has basically highlighted the exact reason why this guide is a waste of space on TL, its a random cheese that will last as long as it takes people to make a tiny change in the way they play and then it will be an auto-loss against anybody even half decent. The OP obviously didnt think of the quoted posters theorycraft when he was mapping out how the metagame would swing massively upon the world receiving his build, and all of you people talking about how this may be a good build for a tournament should just consider for a second exactly what the quoted poster said and what this means in terms of going up against a decent player. Even for a mediocre player, its not difficult to teach yourself to count SCVs, its just something that needs to be practiced for a day. So when your in the loading screen of the tournament match will you really want to throw out a build that is a risk even without the opponent scouting properly, and an auto-loss when they do? You are basically banking on them never having learnt the benefits of worker counting. Now, the reason i get so pissed off is because with a little bit of time, effort and most importantly - devotion to SC2 (which the OPer obviously doesnt have) this could be a brilliant guide on how to execute Alive/Browns NoGas Fake > 2Rax Bunkers > Expo, a build that actually has potential staying power and could be a decent tool in our terran toolboxes for -good time to come-, not just for the next two weeks until we single handedly make protoss players more thorough at scouting. Seriously guys, what the hell..
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Aye, you're missing several SCVs due to cutting and proxying, which is rather noticeable. However, you can perform the same core build (1 rax + 1 proxy rax --> marine/SCV all-in) without cutting SCVs, which shows the Protoss only one fewer worker than he should expect. Not an easy difference to perceive.
If you don't cut SCVs, you get fewer marines but more workers and minerals... and you can abort the attack for more standard play with minimal economic losses if the Protoss is clearly ready for it. (Say, if he took only one gas and is heavily chronoboosting his gateway.) If it remains hidden, the proxied barracks make a brilliant scout, either by building a marine and sneaking it in, or by floating.
Alternatively, I think the in-base 2 rax no gas FE has potential. By delaying your CC ~200 minerals (cost of a barracks + cost of lost mining time) you force the Protoss not to open too greedy, or you can bumrush him with marine/SCV. (You're sure to kill his scout before he knows if you've built more than three marines.)
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On May 05 2012 07:34 Severedevil wrote:
Aye, you're missing several SCVs due to cutting and proxying, which is rather noticeable. However, you can perform the same core build (1 rax + 1 proxy rax --> marine/SCV all-in) without cutting SCVs, which shows the Protoss only one fewer worker than he should expect. Not an easy difference to perceive.
If you don't cut SCVs, you get fewer marines but more workers and minerals... and you can abort the attack for more standard play with minimal economic losses if the Protoss is clearly ready for it. (Say, if he took only one gas and is heavily chronoboosting his gateway.) If it remains hidden, the proxied barracks make a brilliant scout, either by building a marine and sneaking it in, or by floating.
Alternatively, I think the in-base 2 rax no gas FE has potential. By delaying your CC ~200 minerals (cost of a barracks + cost of lost mining time) you force the Protoss not to open too greedy, or you can bumrush him with marine/SCV. (You're sure to kill his scout before he knows if you've built more than three marines.)
This is pretty interesting. I agree that a similar but slower and more normal looking SCV/marine attack can be much more effective at higher levels.
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I'm a 1000+ master terran. I've been using this build since GSL2, MVP v Squirtle. I've also picked up a few tricks from Ganzi and Boxer. Here are my thoughts/tips
The only way to 11-11 is to proxy the raxx. I need marine reinforcements to arrive as quickly as possible to the protoss main.
The depot on 10 is built as close to the mineral line as possible, squeezing in just a few seconds more mining time.
It does not matter what the probe sees. 11-11 is a game of micro v micro. If I waste minerals or mining time trying to kill/block the probe, my attack will come too late.
@50-66% orbital command, I pull 8-9 probes (including the pair that built the raxx). While they are in transit, my first marine and raxx SCV puts up a bunker at the top of the protoss main ramp. It does not matter if the bunker is not in range of pylons/gateways/cybercore. I position it so that zealots/probes are partially walled out and would have to funnel through a narrow choke to engage me.
It is good if a protoss pulls lots of probes to aid zealot #1, but a word of caution: if you let the probes mineral-walk into melee range, a surround on your marines will end the push. All you have to do is back off and fire a few times with your marines. Kite kite kite, and fire at the zealot/probes from the low ground, protect your bunker.
You should have 5 marines by the time stalker #1 pops out. Bunker #1 should be nearly complete. Bunker #2 is the one that you want to get in range of some crucial buildings.
Now it comes down to a game of "chicken" - your marines v his stalkers. The MVP v Squirtle (or MVP v Naniwa) games show how it is done. 11-11 is only as good as your marine control and sense of positioning. Build the 2nd bunker only after you have analyzed the protoss building placements carefully. If you find an open L shape created by a cybercore/gateway, you're in luck. The SCV will be protected from melee attacks and your marines should be distracting the stalker(s).
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On April 26 2012 16:09 IamPryda wrote:
lol high masters players can tell when a rax was made on a 11 which would never be done with a 1 rax exapnd...fail but congrats on cheeseing your way to high masters and atleast it was well written
I was watching MakaPrime stream the other day and he abused this fact when he met the same guy several times on ladder. Maka of course has a reputation for the proxy rax. In the first game he did a 1 rax FE building the rax on 11 and the toss assumed it was an 11/11. In the next game he did the same thing except this time he had the proxy rax and he won with the bunker rush.
So yes.. good players know that a rax went down on 11 but that does not make having a solid 11/11 build in your pocket in less useful..
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i posted quite a few replays of me doing this build earlier and DOMINATING all races. but it seems to fail more than it succeeds. it is a good back pocket tool. but i dont reccomend it.
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Definitely gonna throw this build into my tournament playbook. Nice surprise in Best of X series. Thanks for the guide!
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EPT
