[G] The ultimate TvP all in - 11/11 rax metagame exploitat…

On April 26 2012 11:35 s15sLiDER wrote:
You just wrote a guide on a 11/11 rax all in. Hardly guide worthy to be honest.

On April 26 2012 12:05 marcmad wrote:
I am not a pro But what if the protoss wall off his ramp then use his stalkers to focus your marines while your scv attack the wall?

On April 26 2012 16:09 IamPryda wrote:
lol high masters players can tell when a rax was made on a 11 which would never be done with a 1 rax exapnd...fail but congrats on cheeseing your way to high masters and atleast it was well written

Sentry is anyway the worst thing to do against this build. They deal almost no damage. The building time of a sentry (42 seconds, 21 with chronoboost) lasts more time than one force field (15 seconds). That’s wasted time on a gate. Stalker is a much preferred unit (more damage, faster).

On April 26 2012 15:16 wichenks wrote:
the ultimate tvp build? come on dude. 11/11 proxy rax. the title should read "tvp cheese" not a guide. thanks.

On April 26 2012 18:57 thepeonwhocould wrote:
The thing is, there is actually a very similar build which has become extremely popular on korean GM ladder in the last month. The difference is, the korean version is not all in. The korean version is 11 in base rax, 12 proxy rax. Normal SCV production, bunker at your natural at 24 supply. You push out with about 6 marines and 5 scvs, rallying more marines. (makes Protoss think it is a 1 rax gasless expand). You build the proxy rax somewhere near your main, so it can be floated home after you execute the rush. It is impossible to tell the difference between this build and a 1 rax gasless expand unless you scout the proxy barracks, or suicide a unit past the bunker (even so, maybe your CC is in your base?). You move out at 24 supply, and build a command centre at your natural at 27 supply, then 2 gas and transition.

Here is that build being executed in GSL a few days ago;

http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67145 (first game in set so no sub required I believe). NB; he transitions in to a tank attack but that's not necessary, you can transition into a normal 3 rax 1 starport build.

I do believe this build will have a big impact on the metagame, as it means that a 1 rax expand is no longer a safe build for Protoss. I think this build will result in terran getting an earlier expansion than protoss, but previously many protoss could get their natural expansion the same time or earlier than the terran. The key to the success of this build is the fact that it cannot be distinguished from a 1 rax gasless expand. In a best of 5 series, you could alternate between 1 rax gasless, and 11 inbase/12 proxy rax, and the Protoss will never get an expansion earlier than you.

I have been using the build in this video for the last week and it does kill most early protoss expands while securing your own expansion. I recommend players learn the non-all in version of this build as it will help you improve much more.

On April 26 2012 19:12 Douillos wrote:


Thank you, that seems interesting, do you know how much the 12 rax is delayed compared to a normal 12 rax?

EDIT sorry i didnt read properly -_- Do they supply depot scout?

On April 27 2012 01:17 Breach_hu wrote:
any toss who can count scvs can see that something is going on~

On April 27 2012 01:31 bLah. wrote:


any toss that can use obs can see your build, any toss that know how to micro can beat you, any toss that has good macro can beat you, any toss that knows how to storm/feedback can beat you, boo hoo, that's not the point.

Builds like this are pretty good to have up your sleeve in tournament play and it's good if people refine them (small things like where to put them, what to do in which situation) and explain them on forums

Hi TL !

I’m here to present you a build that made me enter the Grand Master League at season 2, and kept me at a Top master level so far. This BO is EASY to execute, extremely POWERFUL, UNEXPECTED, provides QUICK WINS and will make you reach an UNREAL WIN RATIO in TvP once you master it.

It works on any map, on any position and beats any Protoss opening. All you need is to execute it perfectly, respect the timing and follow the thought process.

On April 26 2012 15:07 TechSc2 wrote:
so standard marine scv all in....

I really applaud the way you wrote the guide, and you put alot of effort into making it, but...

It's still an marine scv all in that is easy to scout since you make a 11 rax, and the only reason terrans makes an 11 rax is to do 11/11 marine scv all in.

So if a marine pops out before 3:20, you know it's an 11 rax and you can almost 100% sure say there is a second 11, or 13 rax incoming, go 3 stalker rush with chrono spend on gateways instead of warpgate and block ramp with gateways/pylons and start picking off marines.

On April 26 2012 18:55 Adonminus wrote:
I think that if you chrono 2-3 early sentries, you can forcefield the ramp long enough until the warp gate is done and then use the warp gate to get enough units to defend.

On April 26 2012 20:58 Doganaws wrote:
Hi. Just to know... what happened if P build 1-2 sentries?
-_-

On April 27 2012 11:30 Rivkeh wrote:
As a protoss player, what I find the most fascinating is the win %. Clearly people need to learn to suck it up and pylon scout with every build (other than a wonky 2 gate, I'm looking at you Adelscott), it costs you like 20 minerals compared to gate scout, plus you get to zap scvs for fun and profit. How many games do you lose to cheese because you couldn't react in time? now how many games do you lose cause you're 20 minerals short? and worker count, which I will admit being guilty of. Anyways, it was a surprisingly well written build for an effective strategy, I certainly enjoyed it! I object a bit to the initial claims of revolutionizing the game, but who knows maybe we will see a resurgence of 11 gate builds, but that doesn't undermine the fact that this is a quality bit of cheese.

On April 27 2012 11:05 coriamon wrote:
I don't understand what all the hate is about; the same thing happened when Tang posted his Rushing Relentlessly guide.

On April 27 2012 12:48 tuestresfat wrote:


lol you guys think sentries will stop this -.-'

edit:

The only problem is that will never happen. If anything it's trending towards scouting even later, like on 2nd pylon or cybernetics core.

On April 27 2012 01:31 bLah. wrote:


boo hoo, that's not the point.

Builds like this are pretty good to have up your sleeve in tournament play and it's good if people refine them (small things like where to put them, what to do in which situation) and explain them on forums

On April 27 2012 18:35 Coramoor wrote:
boring and very holdable with any 2gate expand style builds

On April 27 2012 14:05 Stoopid0boi wrote:


Don't understand what u mean by lol u think sentries beat this... What do you do if they ff the ramp? In the scenario where the toss went zealot sentry sentry, wouldn't it make your attack useless?

Secondly, just want to say one thing about "all in cheesy builds". There was once a time where people played a game for enjoyment. I agree that winning makes the game more enjoyable, but I also say that I like playing the game more than just making workers for more than half the game. I agree this build would be great for a best of x tournament, but how many ppl on tl actually plays in tournaments that don't have a 11/11 build in their arsenal?

On April 27 2012 18:30 gillon wrote:
This is a standard 11/11 used in TvP. It doesn't work versus people with decent probe micro.

On April 27 2012 19:04 Wurstbrot wrote:
Why people make all these threads about these allins?! They make the ladder a terrible experience.

On April 27 2012 20:08 L3g3nd_ wrote:
This is in no way a meta game revolution, stuff like this becomes popular, then protoss start scouting for it and preparing for it and it goes away after a week or 2, a cheesy all in build will NEVER be a catalyst for a game revolution

On April 27 2012 19:50 Forbidden17 wrote:
because it makes you better as a player, a lot of people just fail to see it

On April 27 2012 19:50 Forbidden17 wrote:

because it makes you better as a player, a lot of people just fail to see it

On April 27 2012 20:08 L3g3nd_ wrote:
This is in no way a meta game revolution, stuff like this becomes popular, then protoss start scouting for it and preparing for it and it goes away after a week or 2, a cheesy all in build will NEVER be a catalyst for a game revolution

On April 26 2012 11:41 NrGmonk wrote:
This is a nice, detailed guide. I have a few questions/concerns.

What do you do when a protoss walls off his main with 2 gateways?
You also don't take into account the very popular Nexus into forge build that's been popping up lately.
Also, I don't like the misleading ambiguous title.

On April 28 2012 04:27 offal wrote:
Hi there,

Thank you for your feedback and pieces of advice.

I'd like to add few points to the guide and answer few questions :

1. First I added three replays to the guide :

vs mTwUnderdark - Metalopolis :


vs BabyKnight - Shattered Temple :


vs RotterdaM - Scrap Station, this replays shows how useful positionning + "hold position" on scvs impacts the fight.


At that time, the build was not optimised yet. Still it worked very well. Got quite easy wins there. To me, it proves that, when optimized, this build is even stronger and harder for Protoss players to beat it.

2. Some people argue any good Protoss player would count the number of scvs. That's wrong. The only thing they want to scout is whether the Terran player took his gas or not. If any good Protoss would count the number of scvs, I would never get 91% wins with this build.

Why ? Because if they see you took gas, they assume you'll do an early agression (marines/maraudeurs push) or an all in (1/1/1). No gas means no agression in their frame of mind.
This is why my build counters the actual metagame. No way they assume you're gonna all in them.

3. Even if the Protoss player knows you're gonna all in them with this specific build, that won't make them win. Your % of winning the game is still very high. The reason is quite simple : with the current metagame, most Protoss players go for 12 gate, and even more often for 13 gate. They do so because you can't play on clos positions anymore, and the maps are very big now. All this favours macro openings.

The only build that would insure them a high % win against this all in is 11 gate, which is totally unlikely to happen.

On April 29 2012 00:02 eourcs wrote:
The 12/14 version of this build that many koreans/Demusllim do is a lot better and not allin. This is just another silly build that gives bad players on ladder a bunch of easy wins.

On April 29 2012 01:58 kranten wrote:



How can pulling scvs not be all in?

On April 29 2012 01:58 kranten wrote:



How can pulling scvs not be all in?

On April 29 2012 02:09 eourcs wrote:

The 12/14 version only pulls 4-5 scvs, and if you feel you won't be able to do damage, you don't have to push and you can cut marines to get your cc faster.

On May 01 2012 02:56 ImANinjaBich wrote:
so im about to share my success story today! i've tried this strat for to games now and i am 9/10 vs all races. i have the replays to prove it!
http://terranimba.com/replay/0djl849J3Y
http://terranimba.com/replay/JRjYoJWSvUA9rk
http://terranimba.com/replay/nkRfpjV3KK
http://terranimba.com/replay/TZP8jdCbD0

so if u want to see the rest of the replays just pm me. i think it is a viable strategy against all races. i have noticed(clearly) u do have to veto the 4 spawn location maps. but if u scout right it doesnt matter a whole lot. but i went from 53 on my ladder to 11th in the matter of an hour....so I LOVE IT!

On April 26 2012 11:41 NrGmonk wrote:
This is a nice, detailed guide. I have a few questions/concerns.

What do you do when a protoss walls off his main with 2 gateways?
You also don't take into account the very popular Nexus into forge build that's been popping up lately.
Also, I don't like the misleading ambiguous title.

The question is; are you getting better?

On April 29 2012 00:02 eourcs wrote:
The 12/14 version of this build that many koreans/Demusllim do is a lot better and not allin. This is just another silly build that gives bad players on ladder a bunch of easy wins.

On May 01 2012 03:45 DT17 wrote:


The question is; are you getting better?

On May 01 2012 04:49 Amoment wrote:
Its not that Terran is OP already, but this guide is the biggest garbage I´ve ever seen, sorry to say, very nice guide you have there, but you won´t be a better player with this.

You might learn some micro, but you don´t learn any macro. Teaching cheese is exactly the wrong way.
I am glad that you quit SC2.

On April 28 2012 17:18 Rimak wrote:
Whow, I'd never thought I'll see someone defending and even forcing an opinion, that some chezzy allin makes you a overall better player.
This is so ridiculous.
What next?
Photon cannon rush standart play?
Planetary fortress into proxy 7 rax?
Please do understand me correctly, this build is good in it's effectiveness, Geiko proved it when he tried his version of this.
I've tried it, and with no understanding of how to play Terran i've still won.
But for god sake do not delude other people that this is good practice strategy or it will get you to better understanding of game. No!
This is a cheesy allin, effective yes, easy yes, but in any other way than giving you some easy wins it's not going to help you.
Thanks.

On May 01 2012 05:11 ImGonnaRideYou wrote:
The ladder needs people who play to win. I would like to see the rankings and win-lose of these people saying stuff like "yeah but are you actually getting better?" and "yeah but you got lucky because if the game went on longer you'd probably get supply blocked."

Guarantee you're not that much better than the rest of us.

On May 01 2012 04:50 Clarity_nl wrote:




I understand the attitude of: "improve faster with solid macro play."

But why does everyone have the attitude "if you practice an all-in you're awful and don't deserve to live"
The ladder needs a ton of people who do all-ins otherwise people who play solid macro games won't actually learn to do the "solid" play.

I would argue that, yes, he has improved. He just added a new build to his repertoire that is effective.

Nice guide, well written and very detailed.
As mentioned on page one, I would be curious how this fares against the PvT FFE that's been cropping up lately.

Everyone here is a prude when it comes to all-ins and it's one of the reasons korea is so far ahead of us overall.

On May 01 2012 04:50 Clarity_nl wrote:
But why does everyone have the attitude "if you practice an all-in you're awful and don't deserve to live"
The ladder needs a ton of people who do all-ins otherwise people who play solid macro games won't actually learn to do the "solid" play.

On April 27 2012 23:39 oMNY.SEA wrote:



Honestly, this is the most amusing thing ever. I cant believe several people will sit here and constantly defend this guide. We know the build will win on ladder 8 games out of 10 for a -little while- (if it gets popular at all, it wont take protoss long to adjust their scouting/reaction). It barely gives you any decent practice so dont pretend it does, it gives minor micro training at best. So like i said before, people using this build arent really getting any better while they train their opponents to defeat their pathetic cheeses. I cant believe anyone using this build on ladder is playing the game for anything more than a few laughs, and playing a build like this will certainly NOT help much in making you a better player so please dont listen to the quoted poster if you are just starting out with sc2.

On May 01 2012 17:53 Xequecal wrote:


People hate cheeses so much because in SC2, a lot of cheeses cannot be reasonably answered by >95% of the people playing the game, even if they scout it, other than by resorting to BO poker (like going stargate against Terran and hoping they do 1/1/1) or by doing their own cheese which hits earlier. You need to be able to micro at a fairly high level to beat some extremely simple 1a cheeses, and on top of that, the cheeser probably has tons and tons and tons of practice microing his cheese because he does it every game, while you have very little because you only face it one game out of 25, if that.

The prime example is proxy gates in the Protoss mirror. Suck at zealot vs. zealot micro? You can't beat it. Sorry. This particular skill is also almost never relevant in standard PvP games either, further increasing the chance that your opponent will not be able to answer.

Another example, >90% of Protoss players cannot 1 gate FE and beat 1/1/1. They just can't. You need a fairly high amount of APM to be able to beat it and if you don't have it nothing you do will work, other than guessing they're doing it at the game start and actually making a stargate.

Marine/SCV allin is another serious offender as beating it either requires guessing it's coming way before it's reasonable to scout it, or by executing a high level of micro. You must be able to kite with your stalkers while flanking their marines with your probes, (microing two disparate groups of units at the same time is not easy) and while you're doing this you have to make sure your gateways are still pumping units AND you don't supply block. The Terran just has to attack move his stuff, if you're below a certain level of APM nothing you do will ever work other than guessing it's coming way in advance so you can have enough sentries to perma-FF your ramp.

Zerg also has serious problems with this against Protoss and 6-gate, microing slow roaches against the allin is hard and if you can't do it extremely well absolutely nothing you do will ever let you win games, other than counter-cheesing with a cheese that hits earlier, like 1-base crap or roach/ling allin.

The fact that blind 6 pooling EVERY SINGLE GAME, like more than one person has demonstrated on this board, will get you to grandmaster is why people hate cheese so much. It's far too difficult to deal with if you're not in the top 1-2% of the playerbase, and success against it is highly random.

On May 01 2012 18:29 Skwid1g wrote:
You have no idea what you're talking about. Builds like this are far and away the best builds for newer players to learn

On May 01 2012 18:29 Skwid1g wrote:
If you aren't good enough to beat it you deserve to lose to it. Barring 6 pool and that low-ground rax+supply depot all in, there are VERY few all-ins that people have any right to be whining about, you can scout and hold all of them if you use your brain. Whining about how bad people that cheese are (when every top player does it at least occasionally) is stupid. If they spent half as much time working on their micro and BOs as they do whining they'd be able to win a lot more consistently.

On May 01 2012 19:00 tsango wrote:
How is this any better than a 3rax supply drop all in? I'm assuming it hits fractionally earlier, but is getting there 10 seconds earlier better than having an extra rax worth of marines coming in?

Also, to all of the people posting the typical "ucantplaymacroQQurbad" - Why should he have to play a 30minute game if he can consistently beat opposing players in 6minutes? If the other person plays greedy, and you take a risk (doing an all in) the pay off is winning the game - ultimately all you've done is apply game winning pressure. If someone were to win a game in 30minutes, you would not cry foul claiming they shouldve played a 45minute game, so why should this be any different? Like with any strategy game, the best players are those who can play through the early,mid and late game with numerous different styles. This would characterise a very aggressive early game play, it's fully within the constraints of the game and should be respected for being so.

On May 01 2012 20:09 AeroEffect wrote:
lol there is a big difference between cheese and an all-in and this is as all in as you get. all-ins are only good for catching people by surprise. you wont beat anyone using an all in if they think that its coming.

On May 02 2012 04:08 Genome852 wrote:


Do you even know what cheese means?..

On May 01 2012 20:09 AeroEffect wrote:
lol there is a big difference between cheese and an all-in and this is as all in as you get. all-ins are only good for catching people by surprise. you wont beat anyone using an all in if they think that its coming.

On May 01 2012 04:49 Amoment wrote:
Its not that Terran is OP already, but this guide is the biggest garbage I´ve ever seen, sorry to say, very nice guide you have there, but you won´t be a better player with this.

You might learn some micro, but you don´t learn any macro. Teaching cheese is exactly the wrong way.
I am glad that you quit SC2.

On May 02 2012 04:28 Thylacine wrote:


It's a tactic that relies on secrecy, and if revealed usually fails. Like this baddie-bomtastic-build. Sorry to burst your bubble, big boy.

On May 02 2012 20:19 clownfish wrote:

how are you not improving at the game when you are adapting to weaknesses in your opponents build?

On April 28 2012 14:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
All-ins are part of the game

If your opponents focus too much on lategame playing the "real way", then if you are a serious player (and assuming you're not an idiot), you will take advantage of that by all-in'ing or cheesing. How can you not understand this?

By training opponents to learn how to deal with this, it makes them better players as well. As the one performing it, you get a nice cheese you can throw out once in a while, especially if you expect him to be going nexus first or such.

On May 04 2012 00:39 krylon wrote:
For everyone complaining about it being mislabeled as a meta game revolution, maybe you don't quite understand. If by reading this guide a certain percentage of Terrans on the ladder begin to use this build with great frequency Protoss in general as a race will have to start playing less greedy. The meta game for P is EXTREME greed because of the strength of getting warpgate JUST in time to start warping reinforcments against pressure builds like 2 rax. Just the potential of an earlier timing attack by T will eventually shift the meta game towards a more defensive protoss early game.

Most people her are thinking far to much about the specific (garnering quick wins) but not about the general (forcing P as a race to change their early game mindset). Sure if you knonw this build is coming then you have a much higher chance of defending it, lowering the tangible win rate of a T using the build. But the real cost is seen when P are worrying about this build and delaying expanisions, upgrades, or other hits to their macro when the build isn't coming. Sometimes it is the threat of a build, not the build it self that changes the meta game.

On May 04 2012 00:57 YosHGo wrote:


Oh yeah extreme greed its not like we are doing 3 nexuses before additional production building and hold fine with it right ?

On May 04 2012 01:59 sieksdekciw wrote:
This guide is just in time for the changes that come with the next patch. I guess cheese nowadays is the only reliable option to beat toss and zerg. Good guide, I stopped playing forever today because of Blizzards decision to remove terran players from the game for good, but its nice to know that there are still some terrans that try to adapt their game to the screaming imbalance that is toss. However, seeing how things are progressing, this build will soon be outdated cause Blizzard plan for next patch to make barracks build time 120 secs and requiring engi bay.

On May 04 2012 01:59 sieksdekciw wrote:
This guide is just in time for the changes that come with the next patch. I guess cheese nowadays is the only reliable option to beat toss and zerg. Good guide, I stopped playing forever today because of Blizzards decision to remove terran players from the game for good, but its nice to know that there are still some terrans that try to adapt their game to the screaming imbalance that is toss. However, seeing how things are progressing, this build will soon be outdated cause Blizzard plan for next patch to make barracks build time 120 secs and requiring engi bay.

On May 04 2012 02:18 Severedevil wrote:
In my experience, you can do a similar build which is not all-in and is even harder to scout, by going 12/14 rax and only pulling half your SCvs with the attack. That way, you never have to cut SCVs.

On May 04 2012 02:25 SuperYo1000 wrote:



I think it effectively removes terran QQ's players cuz my terran master friend is smashing face right now without any cheese and doesnt feel these new changes will do that much

On May 04 2012 02:58 sieksdekciw wrote:

I have 2 master terran accounts, both in EU, not in NA, which is kinda different. And I feel that the game is heavily imbalanced in favor of zerg and toss.

On May 04 2012 00:57 YosHGo wrote:


Oh yeah extreme greed its not like we are doing 3 nexuses before additional production building and hold fine with it right ?

On May 04 2012 01:59 sieksdekciw wrote:
This guide is just in time for the changes that come with the next patch. I guess cheese nowadays is the only reliable option to beat toss and zerg. Good guide, I stopped playing forever today because of Blizzards decision to remove terran players from the game for good, but its nice to know that there are still some terrans that try to adapt their game to the screaming imbalance that is toss. However, seeing how things are progressing, this build will soon be outdated cause Blizzard plan for next patch to make barracks build time 120 secs and requiring engi bay.

On May 04 2012 03:31 krylon wrote:


Can we get a link for that please?

On May 04 2012 02:35 zezamer wrote:


Isn't half of your scv.s all in. I don't see how you could go back to normal game after loosing that much.

On May 04 2012 04:38 sieksdekciw wrote:

It's all over TL recently:

Here are the threads:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332618
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334423

The next patch info is scientifically inferred studying trends in previous patches.

On May 04 2012 05:22 krylon wrote:


Sorry, but at quick glances of OPs on those threads I see nothing about the aformentioned nerfs to barracks build time and engi before barracks. Am i retarded and mis read some heavy sarcasm or are these mentioned elsewhere? The indications I saw were that T is in a good place and everyone else is fairly good too nad very slight tweaks need to be made.

edit: furthermore I don't see any of the builds being game breaking in anyway at all...

On May 04 2012 05:48 chestnutcc wrote:

Hes whining and his tissue is sarcasm

On May 04 2012 04:11 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss here, I don't understand the necessity of walling the probe in. The simplest thing to do if your probe is walled in is to count scvs. With a standard 15/16 OC, there should be at most 2 single miner patches (1 scout, 1 builder, with this build there are about 3 less scvs and 1 out on the map, so thats about 4 single miner patches). So by walling in the probe, you invite the toss to count your scvs and deduce your build. If you just let them take a circuit and run out (since the gas count if the first thing to check), they may not do this, instead concentrating on dodging the marine. If you wall the probe in, you reveal your build immediately, whereas if the probe spots it as it moves out, it drastically cuts down the reaction time available to the protoss (especially if seen from a xel naga tower as opposed to just outside the terran's natural). After guessing the build, its a second gate/ forge and a wall off for an almost guaranteed win.

On May 05 2012 07:34 Severedevil wrote:
Aye, you're missing several SCVs due to cutting and proxying, which is rather noticeable. However, you can perform the same core build (1 rax + 1 proxy rax --> marine/SCV all-in) without cutting SCVs, which shows the Protoss only one fewer worker than he should expect. Not an easy difference to perceive.

If you don't cut SCVs, you get fewer marines but more workers and minerals... and you can abort the attack for more standard play with minimal economic losses if the Protoss is clearly ready for it. (Say, if he took only one gas and is heavily chronoboosting his gateway.) If it remains hidden, the proxied barracks make a brilliant scout, either by building a marine and sneaking it in, or by floating.

Alternatively, I think the in-base 2 rax no gas FE has potential. By delaying your CC ~200 minerals (cost of a barracks + cost of lost mining time) you force the Protoss not to open too greedy, or you can bumrush him with marine/SCV. (You're sure to kill his scout before he knows if you've built more than three marines.)

On April 26 2012 16:09 IamPryda wrote:
lol high masters players can tell when a rax was made on a 11 which would never be done with a 1 rax exapnd...fail but congrats on cheeseing your way to high masters and atleast it was well written