• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:31
CEST 03:31
KST 10:31
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play1Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview8
Community News
[TLMC] Summer 2026 Ladder Map Rotation05.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start)64ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo31Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested0RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 202611
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start) Is the larve respawn broken? Mizenhauer's Douyu Cup Preview ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play Possible bug in the new patch?
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) INu's Battles#17 <BO.9> Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament GSL CK #4 20-21th June
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 531 Experimental Artillery Mutation # 530 One For All Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed
Brood War
General
vespene.gg — BW replays in browser Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ? ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool BW General Discussion [BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL22] GosuLeague Casts - Tue & Thu 22:00 CEST CSLAN 4 is Coming!
Strategy
Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Beyond All Reason Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread [H]Internet/Gaming Cafe Tips and Tricks
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Listen To The Coaches!
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8031 users

Talking Balance with David Kim

Forum Index > SC2 General
1416 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 69 70 71 Next
Encrypto
Profile Joined August 2010
United States442 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-27 09:08:25
April 27 2012 01:14 GMT
#1
He just posted a new article on Battle.net.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5202424/Talking_Balance_with_David_Kim-4_26_2012#blog

Based on our internal data, tournament results, as well as the feedback we receive from pro-players and the community at large we believe that the balance between the StarCraft II races is in a good place. Still, we’re going to keep a close eye on things to make sure that gameplay remains fun and balanced even as we prepare for the exciting changes that will come with Heart of the Swarm and beyond. In today’s report, we’re going to look at some recent shifts that might merit further investigation, where we are in terms of balance over all, as well as how things look in the pro scene.

We’re currently looking into a couple of potential issues. Zerg has recently shifted from making a very strong showing in tournaments, to having slightly weaker representation only at the highest levels of professional play. We’re also continuing to see a slight advantage for terran in terms of opening flexibility and scouting denial. In response, we’re considering offering zerg better scouting options in the early game.

I think that it’s worth pointing out that these are actually relatively minor concerns in the face of the statistics we’re seeing. Assuming nothing drastic changes in the meta game that would shift the win rates further out of balance, there’s a strong likelihood that it won’t be necessary to make balance changes until Heart of the Swarm arrives. Still, if a significant issue arises that is beyond the reach of metagame changes to resolve, then we will react as quickly as possible to make the adjustments necessary to restore balance.



Adjusted ratings

Here’s the latest global adjusted ratings data:

[image loading]
Please note that the way we do this calculation factors out player skill. These numbers are also constantly in flux. For the purposes of interpreting this chart, a 45-55% win rate suggests that there is no sign of imbalance. Also, because these numbers change from week to week and day to day, it’s not uncommon for a race that shows a 54% win rate this week to show 46% next week. Overall, we have been seeing win rates in the 45-55% range in every matchup and in every region for a while now.

We do have a new method of calculating player skill more precisely. The different races tend to be slightly stronger or weaker at different league levels , and since most players only ever play one race all the time, racial strength was an influence on their hidden rating. For example, if terran is slightly weaker at the gold level, the player would have a lower hidden rating than if he were to play a different race at that level. When using this method of calculation, we are seeing good balance at the highest levels of the ladder - race balance is good enough at those levels to have a negligible influence on player performance.

We’re checking all of these numbers on a frequent basis in order to react quickly if something big happens.



Tournaments

My earlier comments about zerg notwithstanding, overall, we are seeing good win ratios and stats from tournaments.

One interesting thing to note is that there still is a skill gap even at the pro level. This is what we’re seeing:

Protoss has good representation in terms of the number of protoss tournament qualifiers at the general professional level, but has the lowest representation at the very highest professional level.
Zerg has the lowest representation at the general pro level, but has been showing the best standings at the highest tournament levels until very recently.
Terran has good representation over all.
We are concerned that protoss players seem to be having a slower start compared to zerg or terran players. For quite some time after StarCraft II was released, especially at the highest levels of professional play, protoss players were primarily only focusing on 1 base or 2 base warp gate all-ins. It was only after we toned down these builds that protoss players really started exploring their various tech options in the same way that the other two races have been doing for a long time.

Terran representation remains strong even after recent nerfs. We think that the adjustments we’ve made over time have kept pace well with meta game shifts, and that overall terran is in a good place.

Again, we’re closely watching every major tournament, and working with various tournament organizations around the world in order to keep close tabs on both specific games and overall tournament data.



Maps

In our current map pool, we’re seeing that not every map we’ve added to our pool is balanced for every matchup. For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom, a 62% win ratio in PvZ on Korhal Compound, and a 37% win ratio on Metalopolis for TvZ. It’s worth noting that these represent the heaviest imbalances in the maps on our ladder, but that this also isn’t necessarily a problem.

Our current stance on this is we believe slight imbalances in maps actually make the game more interesting, as long as the imbalances aren’t too great. Various new meta games and strategies develop depending on the map, and it’s interesting to see the game play out in different ways as players exploit their own strengths and weaknesses from map to map. We believe a lot of the fun comes from this as well. On top of that, we have our veto system on the ladder and tournaments have their own player map veto systems that also deal with this issue.

That said, if a map pushes the limit too much and a matchup becomes significantly imbalanced, we will definitely take steps to adjust the map pool accordingly.



Community Feedback

The pro player and caster feedback regarding which races are overpowered or underpowered is very evenly distributed among the three races, which is a very good sign.

The feedback from you all in the player community has been very interesting too. A lot of the feedback we used to see on the forums was often related to perceived imbalances in units or strategies at the pro level. These days, it seems that we’re seeing more conversations that focus on what’s happening at the league level directly - which we think could be related to a more visibly balanced pro scene. That’s good for us because, while we like seeing very solid results at the pro level, we are also always working towards a balanced experience across all skill levels. We will continue to pay close attention to both high level players and discussions within the community in order to continue pursuing this goal.

At this moment, it feels like we’re in a good spot when we look at the current state of the game from various angles. However, we are always on the look-out for new issues that could arise, checking our data, and gathering new feedback on a regular basis, and we’ll make adjustments to the game as needed.
Thank you for your continued support and valuable feedback!
Facebook Twitter Reddit
Mirosuu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
England283 Posts
April 27 2012 01:15 GMT
#2
I like it. Idra will be happy about the potential for better early game scouting vs terran.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
MrSexington
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1768 Posts
April 27 2012 01:15 GMT
#3
Thank you, was looking for the link. ^_^

Will read.
Hoodlum
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States350 Posts
April 27 2012 01:15 GMT
#4
YES, thank you for this xD
xO gaming owner
Sajaki
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada1135 Posts
April 27 2012 01:19 GMT
#5
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.
Inno pls...
JiPrime
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada688 Posts
April 27 2012 01:20 GMT
#6
Good, he knows what's wrong right now.
Hopefully he deals with it quickly.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12740 Posts
April 27 2012 01:21 GMT
#7
looks like zvt has gone back to below 50% again, even after the ghost nerf.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
thefonz
Profile Joined April 2012
Belize5 Posts
April 27 2012 01:23 GMT
#8
Yeah TvP lategame has some serious issues. MVP's game on Antiga--he was up 70 supply and still couldn't end the game because P could always storm his way out of trouble.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#9
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote:
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.


It's "interesting" they still have not acknowledged / addressed this. The only mention we've heard of this was in a previous balance blog where they mentioned about chargelot warp-ins being "powerful" lategame.
Sup
Psychobabas
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
2531 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#10
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote:
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.


I feel you man...
spatz
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany153 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#11
give me that zerg buff
pdd
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia9933 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#12
They should have at least talked about late game TvP....
TI4 Champions: EE-Sama | B7-God | A-God_2000 | Kappa Lord | pieliedie
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
April 27 2012 01:26 GMT
#13
At least they aren't screwing anything up.
I am Terranfying.
EleanorRIgby
Profile Joined March 2008
Canada3923 Posts
April 27 2012 01:26 GMT
#14
according to the numbers tvp is not in a good place and they dont even address it...
savior did nothing wrong
LlamaNamedOsama
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1900 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-27 01:28:43
April 27 2012 01:28 GMT
#15
I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss...
Dario Wünsch: I guess...Creator...met his maker *sunglasses*
Kira__
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden2672 Posts
April 27 2012 01:28 GMT
#16
keep in mind that the stats shown there are ALL leagues... so they mean fuck all.
The truth is, Yagami-kun, I suspect that you may in fact be Kira.
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
April 27 2012 01:29 GMT
#17
Funny how people cried murder when the % was only a little bit higher for Terran.
I am Terranfying.
Mirosuu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
England283 Posts
April 27 2012 01:30 GMT
#18
On April 27 2012 10:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss...

Most represented race in GSL is terran. What's your point?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Andreas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Norway214 Posts
April 27 2012 01:31 GMT
#19
David Kim just oozes of incompetence. All he talks about are statistics, and all he can show to is Blizzard's "justified winrates" which we don't know if are reliable stats or not. The stats we do know are real (map winrates) are skewed as hell. TvP is my main concern right now, and I'd love how David Kim thinks it's balanced that Terran has a slightly better chance to win in the first 13 minutes, and then a really low chance to win once it gets past that point. Insead, all I get to know is that their justified TvP winrate is 50% in Korea, so I guess it's fine?
schmutttt
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia3856 Posts
April 27 2012 01:32 GMT
#20
Even as a Zerg player I feel TvP late game needs addressing.
1 2 3 4 5 69 70 71 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 29m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft589
ViBE163
ProTech137
Nina 100
SpeCial 94
Livibee 55
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 2994
GuemChi 2752
Artosis 601
League of Legends
JimRising 557
Counter-Strike
taco 173
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe237
Other Games
summit1g16372
Doublelift2636
Day[9].tv773
C9.Mang0304
Mew2King109
Temp09
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream2739
Other Games
gamesdonequick809
BasetradeTV194
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 106
• EnkiAlexander 40
• mYiSmile138
• davetesta20
• musti20045 20
• Response 1
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Other Games
• Scarra1524
• Day9tv773
Upcoming Events
Douyu Cup 2020
3h 29m
Neeb vs Impact
MacSed vs Cyan
Scarlett vs Kelazhur
INnoVation vs Dear
Big Brain Bouts
14h 29m
Jumy vs eGGz
Harstem vs sebesdes
TriGGeR vs HeRoMaRinE
Douyu Cup 2020
1d 3h
Maestros of the Game
1d 10h
herO vs Classic
Maru vs Serral
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
1d 12h
Douyu Cup 2020
2 days
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
2 days
Online Event
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Bombastic Starleague
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
OSC
5 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Bombastic Starleague
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSCL: Masked Kings S4
WardiTV Spring 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
YSL S3
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 1
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 2
SCTL 2026 Spring
Douyu Cup 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026

Upcoming

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
BCC 2026
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E1
Heroes Pulsing #3
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.