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On April 27 2012 11:17 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 11:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Every time David Kim does one of these, the community takes it as an opportunity to QQ. For the love of god, stop doing these Blizz. Haha this. Its especially baffling considering that now most of the QQ comes from T who.... are half and half with P in Code S, won Dreamhack, and last MLG? P lategame may be powerful but the MU is obviously winnable.
its 5P 3T in code S atm, and a zerg won the last MLG
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On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote:
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.
I'm secretly hoping every terran in GSL RO8 loses so they're forced to address this 
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I'm honestly a little bit shocked it has taken soooooo long for Blizzard to recognize that Zerg early game scouting sucks and is a coin-flip whether it ever reveales useful information, especially since various pro Zerg players have been stating how bad it is for such a long time.
Oh well, better they notice it late than never.
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On April 27 2012 11:20 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:30 Mirosuu wrote:On April 27 2012 10:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss... Most represented race in GSL is terran. What's your point? Do you have a problem reading, here? Both the above referenced statement from David Kim and my post specifically refer to the highest levels of tournaments. Code A/Ro32 aren't the highest level of the tournament, obviously.
I beg to differ. There's little support for saying the skill level between code a and code s are large enough to warrant any seperation in the statistics. Just look at what players currently are down in code a and you'd be hardpressed to make that case.
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On April 27 2012 11:17 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 11:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Every time David Kim does one of these, the community takes it as an opportunity to QQ. For the love of god, stop doing these Blizz. Haha this. Its especially baffling considering that now most of the QQ comes from T who.... are half and half with P in Code S, won Dreamhack, and last MLG? P lategame may be powerful but the MU is obviously winnable.
That may be true but as demuslim said on stream it seems unfair that terran has to do so many more things than protoss being dodging storm's, getting emp's off, sniping templar, microing vikings and microing bio. Whereas protoss has to split templars, try hit a storm and focus vikings when they can.
Don't misinterpret this as balance whine I'm just pointing out that you have to be so fast and have crazy apm to win. it's winnable if you play really well.
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Yeah I'm surprised myself they didn't atleast discuss it. No changes need to be made yet but they dont even seem to acknowledge people's frustration
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Lots of people in here seem to think the game should be balanced at all times (early game, mid game, late game etc). I disagree. And if that's what they're aiming for, it's an epic fail. Terran has no chance vs end game zerg and protoss armies. I assume when blizz nerfed ghosts they were aiming to kill Terran late game and force them to win in the mid game.
This isn't qq. I think the game is fine and they should wait much longer between patches.
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Slightly improved ovie speed might be a good fix for Z's early scouting. I always thought it's a bit silly that T's buildings float faster than (unupgraded) overlords. But to be frank, the current trend is that T doesn't really much care about being scouted. Simply aim for the 150+ food with 3/3 marines and a handful of seige tanks and from there Z has an uphill battle for the rest of the game.
Since changing unit stats will likely break the game, I think the easier route for better balance is map changes. Maps like Cloud Kindom, Entomed Valley, Antiga Shipyard are all too turtle-friendly. (main/2nd/3rd are triangle-shaped, pocketed in the corner)
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Umm. No, you can't balance game on statistics or "ability to win MU".
TvP messed up clearly. If one race has better chance for first N minutes to win the game, and then the chance starts rapidly deteriorating that's just not right.
In theory Terran should be able to win more games, however, Starcraft above all games should not be something like Red Alert (ie. either your race wins in 10 minutes or you lose). Then again, don't know how to fix this without creating more problems. Maybe nerf marauder and buff Terran lategame vs protoss? That could just work.
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On April 27 2012 10:47 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:36 Dodgin wrote:
I'll be real, anyone who watches or plays enough sc2 knows that Protoss is too favored in the late game vs Terran at the moment. I'm not sure if there just needs to be a metagame shift or if they actually have to patch something or adjust maps, but It's starting to get kind of silly.
We'll see what happens, maybe a new biomech composition needs to be dreamed up or something.
edit: also this comes from a protoss player Terran is still favored earlier game and has better overall win rates both in Korea and internationally at the highest level. Why would they patch it when terran still has better win rates at tournament level? http://imgur.com/a/XmBDV
Eh, but that's not really a good way to balance out PvT imo, to just have Terran op in early game and Toss op in late game, yeah sure if it's done that way it might still even out to near 50% win/loss but that doesn't balance the matchup in an overall way.
Btw I'm not saying either race is op in any part of the matchup, I play Zerg so I dunno but if either race is consistantly especially stronger in a certain period of a typical game then imo it should be looked at.
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Balance hasn't been an issue for the majority of this year. It's all map issues these days. Every time you analyze a game you recognize why someone's lost because of their play, not because of some kind of balance issue.
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you gotta be fucking kidding me... i highly doubt that tvp at lower levels resembles anything close to 50%
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On April 27 2012 11:21 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 11:17 windsupernova wrote:On April 27 2012 11:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Every time David Kim does one of these, the community takes it as an opportunity to QQ. For the love of god, stop doing these Blizz. Haha this. Its especially baffling considering that now most of the QQ comes from T who.... are half and half with P in Code S, won Dreamhack, and last MLG? P lategame may be powerful but the MU is obviously winnable. its 5P 3T in code S atm, and a zerg won the last MLG
And FruitDealer won the first GSL, but that didn't mean anything. Zerg really needed buffing back then.
What was "obvious" is Zerg had a harder time winning. I think most people are pointing out how hard it is for Zerg to win because they are a very reactionary race and not being able to scout in early game can lead to them dying to timing attacks and early pressures.
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That seems quite good for such a small sample size.
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On April 27 2012 11:35 Zerothegreat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 11:21 L3g3nd_ wrote:On April 27 2012 11:17 windsupernova wrote:On April 27 2012 11:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Every time David Kim does one of these, the community takes it as an opportunity to QQ. For the love of god, stop doing these Blizz. Haha this. Its especially baffling considering that now most of the QQ comes from T who.... are half and half with P in Code S, won Dreamhack, and last MLG? P lategame may be powerful but the MU is obviously winnable. its 5P 3T in code S atm, and a zerg won the last MLG And FruitDealer won the first GSL, but that didn't mean anything. Zerg really needed buffing back then. What was "obvious" is Zerg had a harder time winning. I think most people are pointing out how hard it is for Zerg to win because they are a very reactionary race and not being able to scout in early game can lead to them dying to timing attacks and early pressures.
how is this relevant to what i was saying? i just corrected his statistics
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I feel as if these balance blogs are a giant troll. They've stated again and again that they see no need to address balance in terms of a patch until the release of HotS, which is projected to hit in 2013. The only thing they do is state that they seem to have achieved racial balance across all leagues due to hidden voodoo calculus, and they refuse to release the state of current map balance by matchup and statistics regarding results of high master/GM games. Ladder is probably the biggest pool from which people could draw information, and there are multiple parties that could benefit from it being public. Think about the valuable information mapmakers could glean from map stats.
I think racial balance is pretty even across the board but the only thing these blogs bring is balance whining, which I think is what Blizzard intends these blogs to prevent. I would absolutely LOVE for Blizzard to release GM results of each matchup scaled with time. It's really great to see the current GSL player's match wins based on gametime, and there are soooooo many games being played every day in GM comparatively, it would be nice to see. And to the people who'd say, well GM isn't pro level and this doesn't mean anything blargahragharhgarg...wouldn't you rather see it than a secretly calculated combination of all league w/rs?
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On April 27 2012 11:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:That seems quite good for such a small sample size.
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not given your username, but I figured it's a nice, convenient statistic for just seeing how things are going at the very highest levels of play in Code A and Code S. One would even expect it to be more skewed due to the sample size, but the fact that it's so close to 50% says that things are actually going quite well.
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On April 27 2012 11:38 Badfatpanda wrote:
I feel as if these balance blogs are a giant troll. They've stated again and again that they see no need to address balance in terms of a patch until the release of HotS, which is projected to hit in 2013. The only thing they do is state that they seem to have achieved racial balance across all leagues due to hidden voodoo calculus, and they refuse to release the state of current map balance by matchup and statistics regarding results of high master/GM games. Ladder is probably the biggest pool from which people could draw information, and there are multiple parties that could benefit from it being public. Think about the valuable information mapmakers could glean from map stats.
I think racial balance is pretty even across the board but the only thing these blogs bring is balance whining, which I think is what Blizzard intends these blogs to prevent. I would absolutely LOVE for Blizzard to release GM results of each matchup scaled with time. It's really great to see the current GSL player's match wins based on gametime, and there are soooooo many games being played every day in GM comparatively, it would be nice to see. And to the people who'd say, well GM isn't pro level and this doesn't mean anything blargahragharhgarg...wouldn't you rather see it than a secretly calculated combination of all league w/rs?
100% agree. It's almost like they're saying "we got the secrets and therefore the power so shhhh kids."
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Despite the TvP late game, TvZ late game, and PvZ volatility, you have to hand it to Blizzard. Compared to the situation the game was in 2 years ago, the races are much more balanced today. And it will only get better.
I personally think Blizzard is doing a very good job at balancing. Impatient voices will always ring loud every other week when one race's showing is weak - my advice for them is to be patient. It is also foolish to think that Blizzard lacks the data or tool to measure the state of the game, balance-wise. Criticism such as "OMG they balance for the bronze," is completely misplaced.
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EPT
