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On April 27 2012 10:32 schmutttt wrote:
Even as a Zerg player I feel TvP late game needs addressing.
when zergs start say that terrans need a buff versus protoss you know there is an issue there.
But yeah it is seriously stupid sometimes how you can go into the late game and have very little chance of actually winning, especially since there a number of different options a late game toss can go which if you dont scout and react to perfectly will just straight up kill u.
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On April 27 2012 12:12 malaan wrote:
have they been watching the GSL recently?
EVery TVP goes like this:
Protoss goes for 2-3 nexus super fast - Adds a ton of gateways - stomps terran into the ground in the mid game..
failing that it's a 2 base warp gate all in which if fails, storm saves the day and the lategame terran gets trounced again.
Cant wait to try out the new zerg scouting methods though!
You make it sound like Terran doesn't have a 55% winrate against Protoss this GSL season 
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No mention of looking back at ghosts 
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We do have a new method of calculating player skill more precisely. The different races tend to be slightly stronger or weaker at different league levels , and since most players only ever play one race all the time, racial strength was an influence on their hidden rating. For example, if terran is slightly weaker at the gold level, the player would have a lower hidden rating than if he were to play a different race at that level. When using this method of calculation, we are seeing good balance at the highest levels of the ladder - race balance is good enough at those levels to have a negligible influence on player performance.
curve fitting... show us the raw results as well! what are they hiding
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On April 27 2012 12:08 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 12:01 usethis2 wrote:
You have to wonder why Toss did not dominate the scene before Khaydarin amulet was cut. (chargelot buff notwithstanding) Imagine KA coming back today. I would hear T's QQ from miles away. ^^ too busy playing 2 base all in. Protoss matches generally don't ever hit past 20 minute mark until recently
It's hard to get past 20 min if you die against a terran on lost temple close position in <10min
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On April 27 2012 12:15 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 12:12 malaan wrote:
have they been watching the GSL recently?
EVery TVP goes like this:
Protoss goes for 2-3 nexus super fast - Adds a ton of gateways - stomps terran into the ground in the mid game..
failing that it's a 2 base warp gate all in which if fails, storm saves the day and the lategame terran gets trounced again.
Cant wait to try out the new zerg scouting methods though!
You make it sound like Terran doesn't have a 55% winrate against Protoss this GSL season
Probably cause they don't, rofl.
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A more useful statistic would be winrates specific to different game lengths in each matchup. And yeah, the fact that he didn't mention lategame TvP is either willful ignorance or incompetence on his part.
Someone with more knowledge of statistics can correct if I'm wrong but I don't quite buy his statement that a 54% winrate isn't indicative of imbalance. He's saying that those numbers fluctuate from day to day and week to week, but does that mean the 54% listed is just from some random day? Or is it an average across months of fluctuation? If it's an average, wouldn't that make it significant?
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On April 27 2012 12:19 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 12:15 HolyArrow wrote:On April 27 2012 12:12 malaan wrote:
have they been watching the GSL recently?
EVery TVP goes like this:
Protoss goes for 2-3 nexus super fast - Adds a ton of gateways - stomps terran into the ground in the mid game..
failing that it's a 2 base warp gate all in which if fails, storm saves the day and the lategame terran gets trounced again.
Cant wait to try out the new zerg scouting methods though!
You make it sound like Terran doesn't have a 55% winrate against Protoss this GSL season Probably cause they don't, rofl.
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?page=1&searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=2012&leaguetype=20&leagueid=27062&gamever=0&mapid=0&Go=30
??
Discussion is ok, but when one side is ignoring facts it makes constructive discussion impossible.
I feel if blizzard reverted ghosts back to 150/150 it would help the situation. If they can fix the issue where terrans bank tons of useless gas they may be able to compete in a prolonged macro game.
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They need to buff a bit ghosts normal shot against light units.
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On April 27 2012 12:15 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 12:12 malaan wrote:
have they been watching the GSL recently?
EVery TVP goes like this:
Protoss goes for 2-3 nexus super fast - Adds a ton of gateways - stomps terran into the ground in the mid game..
failing that it's a 2 base warp gate all in which if fails, storm saves the day and the lategame terran gets trounced again.
Cant wait to try out the new zerg scouting methods though!
You make it sound like Terran doesn't have a 55% winrate against Protoss this GSL season
Ro8: 5 Protoss, 3 Terrans.
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To people saying "of course it's balanced, the ladder forces your winrate to ~50% so these stats are meaningless!" -- remember that you don't know how they got these stats.
Speaking in general terms, blizzard has some function giving the expected probability of a player winning based on his own and his opponent's MMR. In a balanced game with a well designed ratiig system, this probability should be independent of race and depend only on the MMR's. (I would assume it's a function of |mmr_1 - mmr_2|, but that's not important). A statistician could then compare actual ladder winrates vs. the expected probability function and get some meaningful information out of it. How that translates to winrates I can't be sure, but Blizzard did hire professional statisticians to design their system. Why would they not have them available for balance analysis? Give them some credit when they say "the game is basically balanced and here are our numbers." Yes, there are some issues, but none are really glaring. Minor balance issues are inevitable if you have any kind of variety in the different races.
If those minor issues didn't exist, the game would be in-fucking-credibly boring, so stop whining about it already.
Of course blizzard doesn't put all of the detail in a 1 page blog post. The average SC2 player (myself included) is not an expert in statistics and wouldn't understand most of the details if it was explained in such a limited format.
And yes, the ONE single number that is quoted here per region integrates over all the leagues, so it might not be the best figure. Do the people whining honestly believe that is the only thing that blizzard looks at to balance the game? There are even references to some of the other factors in the very post they made. FFS, stop being so willfully ignorant in order to justify your bitching.
Sorry for the rant, the comments in this thread are just depressing.
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TvP lategame, PvZ 2 base allins, honestly the game is becoming a joke at this point. I thought when I read the title I would be reading up about the next patch and the major solutions to these MUs but no, guess they want people to buy HOTS...
If HOTS was not coming out, I think the ladder would quickly become a ghost town. The MUs are just losing alot of the excitement they used to have but with the current metagame, I think sc2 is losing alot of players because of how inconsistent the game is. In masters you might lose against a diamond toss because of a 2 base allin on antiga on your third and just happen to get the third sniped, wtf is fun about that. I want a matchup that doesn't get decided by stupid allins or max roach armies that have the only target of killing the other player's third base.
Make it past the 12 minute mark? Time to get rolled over by a protoss deathball while teching to BL or play an arbritrary and fucking boring match that gets to 20+ minutes where you basically have maxed army vs maxed army.
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I'm very comfortable with the idea of not changing anything until HOTS. I personally think every matchup except ZvP is rather well balanced. ZvP is just really wonky and too base-trady and honestly boring to watch, but I won't go in depth about that here. I think since most major imbalances are out (insta storms, snipe, etc) that Blizz needs to let the metagame simmer for a few months. I wouldn't mind just reverting the Neural Parasite nerf, though.
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The ladder doesn't force your winrate in each matchup to be 50%, it forces your overall winrate to be 50%. If you're getting even numbers of each matchup, your race's relative strength in each matchup will still be demonstrated.
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I feel like at this point, its best to just let the meta-game do its work, and keep hands off until HotS releases. If they really had to make a change I would suggest making terran weaker early game while buffing them late game. But thats much easier said than done. I think the meta-game, and innovative players should be able to fix any perceived weaknesses given enough time.
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And terrans find another reason to QQ quite heavily... start another thread already! 
Thx Blizz for being as awesome as humanly possible!
(apart from the screwed up interface and business practices - yes, looking at you Activision)
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United States20754 Posts
lol watching SotG members, plus T-Zain, Idra, and DjWheat react to this on SotG was the funniest thing ever. Idra- "oh look, they started even talking about something I said a year ago!"
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On April 27 2012 12:22 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 12:15 HolyArrow wrote:On April 27 2012 12:12 malaan wrote:
have they been watching the GSL recently?
EVery TVP goes like this:
Protoss goes for 2-3 nexus super fast - Adds a ton of gateways - stomps terran into the ground in the mid game..
failing that it's a 2 base warp gate all in which if fails, storm saves the day and the lategame terran gets trounced again.
Cant wait to try out the new zerg scouting methods though!
You make it sound like Terran doesn't have a 55% winrate against Protoss this GSL season Ro8: 5 Protoss, 3 Terrans.
That doesn't contradict my fact. If anything, those numbers just show that the Protoss players in Code S are just really damn good, while the Protoss players in Code A are dropping the ball and losing a lot. I'm okay with that, because it illustrates a higher Protoss skill ceiling than many people think
On April 27 2012 12:19 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 12:15 HolyArrow wrote:On April 27 2012 12:12 malaan wrote:
have they been watching the GSL recently?
EVery TVP goes like this:
Protoss goes for 2-3 nexus super fast - Adds a ton of gateways - stomps terran into the ground in the mid game..
failing that it's a 2 base warp gate all in which if fails, storm saves the day and the lategame terran gets trounced again.
Cant wait to try out the new zerg scouting methods though!
You make it sound like Terran doesn't have a 55% winrate against Protoss this GSL season Probably cause they don't, rofl.
Maybe you should check the facts before just dismissing my statement.
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I mean stats are great, but duration of games in regards to these stats is something they need to look at. I'm thinking specifically of TvP and the lopsidedness of those matches.
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I wonder what "early game scouting option" David Kim has in mind. My guess is a new ability for the Queen: 25 energy, flying zergling type quick as fuck unit that has 25 hp but does no damage whatsoever and has no use other than just zipping around like a fly.
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EPT
