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On April 27 2012 12:54 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 12:49 FlamingTurd wrote:
This difficulty scouting as Z has always been an issue and has been spoken about countless times by pros. Finally some response years into the game about it. Because it's actually not an issue. Zerg is the safest early game race after they establish their natural and trading early gas for easier scouting (like overseer tier 1) is actually not worth delaying ling speed or lair for. Just because IdrA has mentioned it in 2010 in a few interviews(and I wish people would stop living in beta balance-world), doesn't mean it was true then (it probably was), is true now, or will be true in HotS. Overall I'm still convinced David Kim has no idea what he's doing. While it is true that their winrates (including lower leagues) have somewhat balanced out, I don't believe it was due to any sort of preconceived design. They just pick a number from their box and then wait half a year to see if it works or not, then pretend like it was what they intended if the winrates are close to 50%.
I don't know what game you are playing, but Zerg is definitely NOT the safest race to play in the early game. Even now, Terran has at least 3 viable openings in TvZ that requires diligent scouting to prepare correctly. Examples are: 2 rax -> 4-5 rax pressure or 3CC, 1 rax reactor hellions -> mech or regular marine tank, 1 rax reactor hellions -> cloak banshee delaying expo. At the mid Master's level, I can mostly tell what the Terran is going for with overlord scouting, ling pokes, and inference, but I've still been surprised many many times before. I can't even imagine what it's like for a Zerg in the lower leagues...
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I think at this point I may have to start collecting and casting TvP replays from pro players where the Terran wins the big battles and is up 30-70 supply and protoss still is in the game and ends up winning from hitting psi storms. It's depressing they still do not address TvP lategame after all this time (TvZ lategame isn't much better after the ghost nerf).
It's also disappointing that a balance designer is equating winrate statistics with how the game is currently being played/the metagame. Statistics have NOTHING, absolutely nothing to do with the current metagame.
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The game feels pretty balanced right now, but with the new expansion coming out I guess they're trying to tell us no more bandwagon balance changes until terran discovers a way to win late-game TvP without a lead to pad the way. I'm not saying TvP is imbalanced but my wrists tell me it gets a little hectic around the time I take my fourth. Maybe David Kim is right, and I would be better if I would play a different race at my current level on the ladder. Luckily for me I don't know how many losses I have  so my win/loss is a mystery unless I study my match history.
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On April 27 2012 10:33 Goshawk. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:28 Kira__ wrote:
keep in mind that the stats shown there are ALL leagues... so they mean fuck all. So painful to have these stats analyzed and used as justifications when they reflect every league. -_-
Totally agree. How the fuck can you analyze balance when half of diamond has 0 clue about what builds are actually used in professional games and everyone below is just completely oblivious?
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On April 27 2012 12:52 SovietHammer wrote:
More evidence blizzard has no idea what is gonig on in their game. If they dont fix tvp lategame, or announce hots at anaheim, im done with sc.
Good to see two or three games from StarTale players in the last week only made you think TvP is unwinnable, or whatever illusion of the metagame you have.
PvT is 50% in Korea. Those are stats taken from the ladder. Actually irrefutable. Competition games are different in PvT, and though the lategame Protoss has been looking beastly for the past couple of months if Blizzard caved to every little trend then Zerg would probably be buffed every second tournament and nerfed the remainder.
Balance isn't something you just react to, but analyse and develop upon. Even if Blizzard acknowledge a problem in TvP, it would (and should) be a couple of months until they work out a solution. Though sometimes, to be fair, their solutions need more work. Still sour bout that ghost nerf.
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On April 27 2012 13:09 avilo wrote:
I think at this point I may have to start collecting and casting TvP replays from pro players where the Terran wins the big battles and is up 30-70 supply and protoss still is in the game and ends up winning from hitting psi storms. It's depressing they still do not address TvP lategame after all this time (TvZ lategame isn't much better after the ghost nerf).
It's also disappointing that a balance designer is equating winrate statistics with how the game is currently being played/the metagame. Statistics have NOTHING, absolutely nothing to do with the current metagame.
What about the converse? The part where terran is wrecked early on but survives on its super efficient units, super healing bunkers, and mules?
I think the bitching about TvP late game is mainly that terrans don't like Toss having the ability to apply sustainable and persistent straight pressure on.
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On April 27 2012 13:09 avilo wrote:
I think at this point I may have to start collecting and casting TvP replays from pro players where the Terran wins the big battles and is up 30-70 supply and protoss still is in the game and ends up winning from hitting psi storms. It's depressing they still do not address TvP lategame after all this time (TvZ lategame isn't much better after the ghost nerf).
It's also disappointing that a balance designer is equating winrate statistics with how the game is currently being played/the metagame. Statistics have NOTHING, absolutely nothing to do with the current metagame.
I am genuinely interested in games like the ones described by you. Terran has to eat ALL the storms and mess up big time to still lose after being ahead 30 - 70(!) supply - and I am not even sure then it´s a done deal for the Toss.
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On April 27 2012 11:10 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 11:06 unknownGamer wrote:
Finally, they realised zerg have problem scouting terrans early game? Took them 2 years.. I always thought that was counter acted by the fact they have by far the most map vision and mobility.
That used to be true, but every Terran goes for Hellions and good Terrans get one viking.
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On April 27 2012 13:12 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 12:52 SovietHammer wrote:
More evidence blizzard has no idea what is gonig on in their game. If they dont fix tvp lategame, or announce hots at anaheim, im done with sc. Good to see two or three games from StarTale players in the last week only made you think TvP is unwinnable, or whatever illusion of the metagame you have. PvT is 50% in Korea. Those are stats taken from the ladder. Actually irrefutable. Competition games are different in PvT, and though the lategame Protoss has been looking beastly for the past couple of months if Blizzard caved to every little trend then Zerg would probably be buffed every second tournament and nerfed the remainder. Balance isn't something you just react to, but analyse and develop upon. Even if Blizzard acknowledge a problem in TvP, it would (and should) be a couple of months until they work out a solution. Though sometimes, to be fair, their solutions need more work. Still sour bout that ghost nerf.
And PVt is still slightly t favoured and was never more than 51-52% p favoured in tlpd where stats actually matter. People jump to conclude lategame tvp is broken but neglect to mention that early game pvt is almost as broken.
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On April 27 2012 10:14 Encrypto wrote:We think that the adjustments we’ve made over time have kept pace well with meta game shifts, and that overall terran is in a good place.
This is a very pertinent point in balance discussion. It's not that Terran is overpowered as such, but that it is the best designed race, which allows the best players in the world to utilise the races good design to its best potential, hence it's being in a 'good place'. Z and P need a little more variety and flexibility in game play (obviously without being the same at T or each other) to allow them to have better design and function over all. Hopefully HoTS will bring this.
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The pro player and caster feedback regarding which races are overpowered or underpowered is very evenly distributed among the three races, which is a very good sign.
Anyone else finds this very funny?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 27 2012 13:14 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 13:09 avilo wrote:
I think at this point I may have to start collecting and casting TvP replays from pro players where the Terran wins the big battles and is up 30-70 supply and protoss still is in the game and ends up winning from hitting psi storms. It's depressing they still do not address TvP lategame after all this time (TvZ lategame isn't much better after the ghost nerf).
It's also disappointing that a balance designer is equating winrate statistics with how the game is currently being played/the metagame. Statistics have NOTHING, absolutely nothing to do with the current metagame. What about the converse? The part where terran is wrecked early on but survives on its super efficient units, super healing bunkers, and mules? I think the bitching about TvP late game is mainly that terrans don't like Toss having the ability to apply sustainable and persistent straight pressure on.
The biggest imbalance in TvP lategame is the mass colossus switch. Typically terrans won't have enough vikings to be able to deal with the switch and just get killed. Obviously, prematurely building vikings is a bad idea because they're useless against zealot/storm/stalker/archon and you really wanna be powering everything into bio. Even when scouting the colossus switch, one starport with a reactor isn't good enough to counter a double robo so more starports are required to defend it. Then if the next battle is about even, and you are left with a bunch of vikings (and he doesn't have colossus) he can go straight back into templar/zealot. It's this lategame flexibility which Terran struggles to deal with. And I say this as a protoss who has been exploiting this fact for months now.
I suspect that the winrate on cloud kingdom is so heavily in protoss's favour because CK tends to produce long games, and Terrans tend to do worse vs protoss in long games.
I really dont understand how Korhal is so heavily protoss favoured in ZvP...
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sight, why would Zerg need better early game scouting? they are the only race with an air-scout in the early game. Protoss has an even harder time scouting Terran because we dont have overlords, we have probes, period.
its so retarded i dont know what to think,
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PvZ lategame is so broken ... also roaches... if you play zerg like Stephano you can't lose... T_T
Stephano even told zerg IMBAAA
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Well this is just proof that David Kim has no idea what the hell he's doing. Terran is clearly at a disadvantage vs Protoss. Even early game. Just watch MarineKing get destroyed by Parting. Its sad. Protoss has 2 splash damage options vs Terran, and Terran doesnt have one. Rax units are terrible vs toss. Vikings are a shit answer to colossus. Colossus + storm is ridiculous for terran to deal with. It requires so much micro compared to the micro requirements of protoss. David Kim is fucking terran because terran players have been better overall skill wise.
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On April 27 2012 13:09 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 12:54 Sadistx wrote:On April 27 2012 12:49 FlamingTurd wrote:
This difficulty scouting as Z has always been an issue and has been spoken about countless times by pros. Finally some response years into the game about it. Because it's actually not an issue. Zerg is the safest early game race after they establish their natural and trading early gas for easier scouting (like overseer tier 1) is actually not worth delaying ling speed or lair for. Just because IdrA has mentioned it in 2010 in a few interviews(and I wish people would stop living in beta balance-world), doesn't mean it was true then (it probably was), is true now, or will be true in HotS. Overall I'm still convinced David Kim has no idea what he's doing. While it is true that their winrates (including lower leagues) have somewhat balanced out, I don't believe it was due to any sort of preconceived design. They just pick a number from their box and then wait half a year to see if it works or not, then pretend like it was what they intended if the winrates are close to 50%. I don't know what game you are playing, but Zerg is definitely NOT the safest race to play in the early game. Even now, Terran has at least 3 viable openings in TvZ that requires diligent scouting to prepare correctly. Examples are: 2 rax -> 4-5 rax pressure or 3CC, 1 rax reactor hellions -> mech or regular marine tank, 1 rax reactor hellions -> cloak banshee delaying expo. At the mid Master's level, I can mostly tell what the Terran is going for with overlord scouting, ling pokes, and inference, but I've still been surprised many many times before. I can't even imagine what it's like for a Zerg in the lower leagues...
I'd almost say it's easier. These builds pop up from time to time, but you can mostly just assume reactored hellions because that's what 90% of T's open with IMO (diamond level). When they do another build they telegraph it fairly early (esp. banshees), so it's not too bad.
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I just don't get how David Kim does not even mention tvp when even by their own numbers its the most imbalanced much up. More specifically late game tvp appears to be the problem. Just look at gsl ro16 game 2 hero vs mvp. Supplies are ~100 to ~180 for about 10min and mvp cannot kill hero. Its only because of his superior economy that he was eventually able to overrun him. If they were on equal economy hero would win despite the huge supply discrepancy. Also the controversial game of marineking vs parting (which shouldn't of been regame, MKP lost) MKP was also approximately 80 supply ahead for so long but couldn't finish parting off. No other match up can you be down 80 supply with a decent chance of still winning.
I don't think its the collosus or HT that are the problem because they can be adequately countered (ghost, viking). Its the chargelot. They can tank and deal so much damage for next to no skill required from the user. Alot of people don't realize how bulky and how much dps a zealot actually does. A zealot has higher dps then a stimmed marine, with a dps of 13.3 compared to 10.5. Yes it cost twice as much as a marine but it has almost 3x the hp with a total of 150 compared to 55 (with combat shields). Now i'm only theorizing but maybe a reduction in shields should compensate for the increased speed and effectiveness of chargelots. Ie. they are now quicker because they carry less weight in terms of shield hp. Food for thought.
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On April 27 2012 13:30 sc2holar wrote:
sight, why would Zerg need better early game scouting? they are the only race with an air-scout in the early game. Protoss has an even harder time scouting Terran because we dont have overlords, we have probes, period.
its so retarded i dont know what to think,
An air scout that's slow and can be easily taken out on the edges of a base if the opponent is diligent. P's may have a similar difficulty in scouting, but your early units are more versatile so it's not as much of a problem as it is for Z.
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On April 27 2012 11:26 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 11:20 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On April 27 2012 10:30 Mirosuu wrote:On April 27 2012 10:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss... Most represented race in GSL is terran. What's your point? Do you have a problem reading, here? Both the above referenced statement from David Kim and my post specifically refer to the highest levels of tournaments. Code A/Ro32 aren't the highest level of the tournament, obviously. I beg to differ. There's little support for saying the skill level between code a and code s are large enough to warrant any seperation in the statistics. Just look at what players currently are down in code a and you'd be hardpressed to make that case.
This isn't a question of skill. This is literally an objective measure of tournament placings that they're recording, and it makes no sense to claim that protosses aren't in the top tier of tournaments when five protosses are in ro8 of gsl..
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Hm no more balanced changes until heart of the swarm except if there is a large meta game shift... I was convinced that HotS would be next year, but are they really anticipating that they won't need another balance patch before next year?
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EPT
