• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:28
CEST 12:28
KST 19:28
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners5Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21
Community News
[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June2Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th151Weekly Cups (May 18-24): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League6
StarCraft 2
General
TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Douyu Cup 2026 Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum
Brood War
General
Data needed Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW fans in southern Sweden, look here! 25 Years Since Brood War Patch 1.08
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread PC Games Sales Thread Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread Summer Games Done Quick 2026!
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Cricket [SPORT] NBA General Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How Streaming Impacts Game P…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8032 users

Talking Balance with David Kim

Forum Index > SC2 General
1416 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 69 70 71 Next
Encrypto
Profile Joined August 2010
United States442 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-27 09:08:25
April 27 2012 01:14 GMT
#1
He just posted a new article on Battle.net.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5202424/Talking_Balance_with_David_Kim-4_26_2012#blog

Based on our internal data, tournament results, as well as the feedback we receive from pro-players and the community at large we believe that the balance between the StarCraft II races is in a good place. Still, we’re going to keep a close eye on things to make sure that gameplay remains fun and balanced even as we prepare for the exciting changes that will come with Heart of the Swarm and beyond. In today’s report, we’re going to look at some recent shifts that might merit further investigation, where we are in terms of balance over all, as well as how things look in the pro scene.

We’re currently looking into a couple of potential issues. Zerg has recently shifted from making a very strong showing in tournaments, to having slightly weaker representation only at the highest levels of professional play. We’re also continuing to see a slight advantage for terran in terms of opening flexibility and scouting denial. In response, we’re considering offering zerg better scouting options in the early game.

I think that it’s worth pointing out that these are actually relatively minor concerns in the face of the statistics we’re seeing. Assuming nothing drastic changes in the meta game that would shift the win rates further out of balance, there’s a strong likelihood that it won’t be necessary to make balance changes until Heart of the Swarm arrives. Still, if a significant issue arises that is beyond the reach of metagame changes to resolve, then we will react as quickly as possible to make the adjustments necessary to restore balance.



Adjusted ratings

Here’s the latest global adjusted ratings data:

[image loading]
Please note that the way we do this calculation factors out player skill. These numbers are also constantly in flux. For the purposes of interpreting this chart, a 45-55% win rate suggests that there is no sign of imbalance. Also, because these numbers change from week to week and day to day, it’s not uncommon for a race that shows a 54% win rate this week to show 46% next week. Overall, we have been seeing win rates in the 45-55% range in every matchup and in every region for a while now.

We do have a new method of calculating player skill more precisely. The different races tend to be slightly stronger or weaker at different league levels , and since most players only ever play one race all the time, racial strength was an influence on their hidden rating. For example, if terran is slightly weaker at the gold level, the player would have a lower hidden rating than if he were to play a different race at that level. When using this method of calculation, we are seeing good balance at the highest levels of the ladder - race balance is good enough at those levels to have a negligible influence on player performance.

We’re checking all of these numbers on a frequent basis in order to react quickly if something big happens.



Tournaments

My earlier comments about zerg notwithstanding, overall, we are seeing good win ratios and stats from tournaments.

One interesting thing to note is that there still is a skill gap even at the pro level. This is what we’re seeing:

Protoss has good representation in terms of the number of protoss tournament qualifiers at the general professional level, but has the lowest representation at the very highest professional level.
Zerg has the lowest representation at the general pro level, but has been showing the best standings at the highest tournament levels until very recently.
Terran has good representation over all.
We are concerned that protoss players seem to be having a slower start compared to zerg or terran players. For quite some time after StarCraft II was released, especially at the highest levels of professional play, protoss players were primarily only focusing on 1 base or 2 base warp gate all-ins. It was only after we toned down these builds that protoss players really started exploring their various tech options in the same way that the other two races have been doing for a long time.

Terran representation remains strong even after recent nerfs. We think that the adjustments we’ve made over time have kept pace well with meta game shifts, and that overall terran is in a good place.

Again, we’re closely watching every major tournament, and working with various tournament organizations around the world in order to keep close tabs on both specific games and overall tournament data.



Maps

In our current map pool, we’re seeing that not every map we’ve added to our pool is balanced for every matchup. For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom, a 62% win ratio in PvZ on Korhal Compound, and a 37% win ratio on Metalopolis for TvZ. It’s worth noting that these represent the heaviest imbalances in the maps on our ladder, but that this also isn’t necessarily a problem.

Our current stance on this is we believe slight imbalances in maps actually make the game more interesting, as long as the imbalances aren’t too great. Various new meta games and strategies develop depending on the map, and it’s interesting to see the game play out in different ways as players exploit their own strengths and weaknesses from map to map. We believe a lot of the fun comes from this as well. On top of that, we have our veto system on the ladder and tournaments have their own player map veto systems that also deal with this issue.

That said, if a map pushes the limit too much and a matchup becomes significantly imbalanced, we will definitely take steps to adjust the map pool accordingly.



Community Feedback

The pro player and caster feedback regarding which races are overpowered or underpowered is very evenly distributed among the three races, which is a very good sign.

The feedback from you all in the player community has been very interesting too. A lot of the feedback we used to see on the forums was often related to perceived imbalances in units or strategies at the pro level. These days, it seems that we’re seeing more conversations that focus on what’s happening at the league level directly - which we think could be related to a more visibly balanced pro scene. That’s good for us because, while we like seeing very solid results at the pro level, we are also always working towards a balanced experience across all skill levels. We will continue to pay close attention to both high level players and discussions within the community in order to continue pursuing this goal.

At this moment, it feels like we’re in a good spot when we look at the current state of the game from various angles. However, we are always on the look-out for new issues that could arise, checking our data, and gathering new feedback on a regular basis, and we’ll make adjustments to the game as needed.
Thank you for your continued support and valuable feedback!
Facebook Twitter Reddit
Mirosuu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
England283 Posts
April 27 2012 01:15 GMT
#2
I like it. Idra will be happy about the potential for better early game scouting vs terran.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
MrSexington
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1768 Posts
April 27 2012 01:15 GMT
#3
Thank you, was looking for the link. ^_^

Will read.
Hoodlum
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States350 Posts
April 27 2012 01:15 GMT
#4
YES, thank you for this xD
xO gaming owner
Sajaki
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada1135 Posts
April 27 2012 01:19 GMT
#5
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.
Inno pls...
JiPrime
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada688 Posts
April 27 2012 01:20 GMT
#6
Good, he knows what's wrong right now.
Hopefully he deals with it quickly.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12736 Posts
April 27 2012 01:21 GMT
#7
looks like zvt has gone back to below 50% again, even after the ghost nerf.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
thefonz
Profile Joined April 2012
Belize5 Posts
April 27 2012 01:23 GMT
#8
Yeah TvP lategame has some serious issues. MVP's game on Antiga--he was up 70 supply and still couldn't end the game because P could always storm his way out of trouble.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#9
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote:
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.


It's "interesting" they still have not acknowledged / addressed this. The only mention we've heard of this was in a previous balance blog where they mentioned about chargelot warp-ins being "powerful" lategame.
Sup
Psychobabas
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
2531 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#10
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote:
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.


I feel you man...
spatz
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany153 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#11
give me that zerg buff
pdd
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia9933 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#12
They should have at least talked about late game TvP....
TI4 Champions: EE-Sama | B7-God | A-God_2000 | Kappa Lord | pieliedie
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
April 27 2012 01:26 GMT
#13
At least they aren't screwing anything up.
I am Terranfying.
EleanorRIgby
Profile Joined March 2008
Canada3923 Posts
April 27 2012 01:26 GMT
#14
according to the numbers tvp is not in a good place and they dont even address it...
savior did nothing wrong
LlamaNamedOsama
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1900 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-27 01:28:43
April 27 2012 01:28 GMT
#15
I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss...
Dario Wünsch: I guess...Creator...met his maker *sunglasses*
Kira__
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden2672 Posts
April 27 2012 01:28 GMT
#16
keep in mind that the stats shown there are ALL leagues... so they mean fuck all.
The truth is, Yagami-kun, I suspect that you may in fact be Kira.
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
April 27 2012 01:29 GMT
#17
Funny how people cried murder when the % was only a little bit higher for Terran.
I am Terranfying.
Mirosuu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
England283 Posts
April 27 2012 01:30 GMT
#18
On April 27 2012 10:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss...

Most represented race in GSL is terran. What's your point?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Andreas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Norway214 Posts
April 27 2012 01:31 GMT
#19
David Kim just oozes of incompetence. All he talks about are statistics, and all he can show to is Blizzard's "justified winrates" which we don't know if are reliable stats or not. The stats we do know are real (map winrates) are skewed as hell. TvP is my main concern right now, and I'd love how David Kim thinks it's balanced that Terran has a slightly better chance to win in the first 13 minutes, and then a really low chance to win once it gets past that point. Insead, all I get to know is that their justified TvP winrate is 50% in Korea, so I guess it's fine?
schmutttt
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia3856 Posts
April 27 2012 01:32 GMT
#20
Even as a Zerg player I feel TvP late game needs addressing.
1 2 3 4 5 69 70 71 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 32m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko510
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 3046
Jaedong 515
Rush 160
EffOrt 151
Leta 106
Pusan 105
Hyuk 87
Dewaltoss 74
Soma 70
Mind 60
[ Show more ]
Light 52
ToSsGirL 51
Backho 50
ggaemo 32
Liquid`Ret 30
BeSt 23
Sacsri 22
soO 19
PianO 18
sorry 17
[sc1f]eonzerg 15
Dota 2
XcaliburYe163
Counter-Strike
fl0m4024
olofmeister1593
shoxiejesuss562
kennyS473
Other Games
Sick165
Fuzer 77
SortOf31
MindelVK11
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV190
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 24
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota258
League of Legends
• Jankos1873
• Nemesis1854
Upcoming Events
OSC
2h 32m
Maestros of the Game
3h 32m
Classic vs Maru
Serral vs herO
TBD vs Clem
TBD vs Rogue
Replay Cast
13h 32m
CranKy Ducklings
23h 32m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 4h
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
1d 8h
eOnzErG vs Mihu
Messiah vs XuanXuan
Jaystar vs TerrOr
Dewalt vs Bonyth
eOnzErG vs XuanXuan
Mihu vs TerrOr
Messiah vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 23h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
2 days
Jaystar vs Dewalt
eOnzErG vs TerrOr
XuanXuan vs Bonyth
Mihu vs Dewalt
Messiah vs Jaystar
eOnzErG vs Bonyth
TerrOr vs Dewalt
OSC
2 days
[ Show More ]
Wardi Open
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 22
2026 GSL S2
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
Acropolis #4 - GSB
SCTL 2026 Spring
Maestros of the Game 2
WardiTV Spring 2026
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Murky Cup 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Douyu Cup 2026
Heroes Pulsing #3
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.