• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:39
CEST 19:39
KST 02:39
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists12[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy21
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers11Maestros of the Game 2 announced32026 GSL Tour plans announced10Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid20
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail MaNa leaves Team Liquid Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists 2026 GSL Tour plans announced
Tourneys
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) SEL Doubles (SC Evo Bimonthly) $5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power
Brood War
General
Pros React To: Tulbo in Ro.16 Group A [BSL22] RO32 Group Stage mca64Launcher - New Version with StarCraft: Remast BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Data needed
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro16 Group B Korean KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro16 Group A
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Reappraising The Situation T…
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2310 users

Talking Balance with David Kim

Forum Index > SC2 General
1416 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 69 70 71 Next
Encrypto
Profile Joined August 2010
United States442 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-27 09:08:25
April 27 2012 01:14 GMT
#1
He just posted a new article on Battle.net.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5202424/Talking_Balance_with_David_Kim-4_26_2012#blog

Based on our internal data, tournament results, as well as the feedback we receive from pro-players and the community at large we believe that the balance between the StarCraft II races is in a good place. Still, we’re going to keep a close eye on things to make sure that gameplay remains fun and balanced even as we prepare for the exciting changes that will come with Heart of the Swarm and beyond. In today’s report, we’re going to look at some recent shifts that might merit further investigation, where we are in terms of balance over all, as well as how things look in the pro scene.

We’re currently looking into a couple of potential issues. Zerg has recently shifted from making a very strong showing in tournaments, to having slightly weaker representation only at the highest levels of professional play. We’re also continuing to see a slight advantage for terran in terms of opening flexibility and scouting denial. In response, we’re considering offering zerg better scouting options in the early game.

I think that it’s worth pointing out that these are actually relatively minor concerns in the face of the statistics we’re seeing. Assuming nothing drastic changes in the meta game that would shift the win rates further out of balance, there’s a strong likelihood that it won’t be necessary to make balance changes until Heart of the Swarm arrives. Still, if a significant issue arises that is beyond the reach of metagame changes to resolve, then we will react as quickly as possible to make the adjustments necessary to restore balance.



Adjusted ratings

Here’s the latest global adjusted ratings data:

[image loading]
Please note that the way we do this calculation factors out player skill. These numbers are also constantly in flux. For the purposes of interpreting this chart, a 45-55% win rate suggests that there is no sign of imbalance. Also, because these numbers change from week to week and day to day, it’s not uncommon for a race that shows a 54% win rate this week to show 46% next week. Overall, we have been seeing win rates in the 45-55% range in every matchup and in every region for a while now.

We do have a new method of calculating player skill more precisely. The different races tend to be slightly stronger or weaker at different league levels , and since most players only ever play one race all the time, racial strength was an influence on their hidden rating. For example, if terran is slightly weaker at the gold level, the player would have a lower hidden rating than if he were to play a different race at that level. When using this method of calculation, we are seeing good balance at the highest levels of the ladder - race balance is good enough at those levels to have a negligible influence on player performance.

We’re checking all of these numbers on a frequent basis in order to react quickly if something big happens.



Tournaments

My earlier comments about zerg notwithstanding, overall, we are seeing good win ratios and stats from tournaments.

One interesting thing to note is that there still is a skill gap even at the pro level. This is what we’re seeing:

Protoss has good representation in terms of the number of protoss tournament qualifiers at the general professional level, but has the lowest representation at the very highest professional level.
Zerg has the lowest representation at the general pro level, but has been showing the best standings at the highest tournament levels until very recently.
Terran has good representation over all.
We are concerned that protoss players seem to be having a slower start compared to zerg or terran players. For quite some time after StarCraft II was released, especially at the highest levels of professional play, protoss players were primarily only focusing on 1 base or 2 base warp gate all-ins. It was only after we toned down these builds that protoss players really started exploring their various tech options in the same way that the other two races have been doing for a long time.

Terran representation remains strong even after recent nerfs. We think that the adjustments we’ve made over time have kept pace well with meta game shifts, and that overall terran is in a good place.

Again, we’re closely watching every major tournament, and working with various tournament organizations around the world in order to keep close tabs on both specific games and overall tournament data.



Maps

In our current map pool, we’re seeing that not every map we’ve added to our pool is balanced for every matchup. For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom, a 62% win ratio in PvZ on Korhal Compound, and a 37% win ratio on Metalopolis for TvZ. It’s worth noting that these represent the heaviest imbalances in the maps on our ladder, but that this also isn’t necessarily a problem.

Our current stance on this is we believe slight imbalances in maps actually make the game more interesting, as long as the imbalances aren’t too great. Various new meta games and strategies develop depending on the map, and it’s interesting to see the game play out in different ways as players exploit their own strengths and weaknesses from map to map. We believe a lot of the fun comes from this as well. On top of that, we have our veto system on the ladder and tournaments have their own player map veto systems that also deal with this issue.

That said, if a map pushes the limit too much and a matchup becomes significantly imbalanced, we will definitely take steps to adjust the map pool accordingly.



Community Feedback

The pro player and caster feedback regarding which races are overpowered or underpowered is very evenly distributed among the three races, which is a very good sign.

The feedback from you all in the player community has been very interesting too. A lot of the feedback we used to see on the forums was often related to perceived imbalances in units or strategies at the pro level. These days, it seems that we’re seeing more conversations that focus on what’s happening at the league level directly - which we think could be related to a more visibly balanced pro scene. That’s good for us because, while we like seeing very solid results at the pro level, we are also always working towards a balanced experience across all skill levels. We will continue to pay close attention to both high level players and discussions within the community in order to continue pursuing this goal.

At this moment, it feels like we’re in a good spot when we look at the current state of the game from various angles. However, we are always on the look-out for new issues that could arise, checking our data, and gathering new feedback on a regular basis, and we’ll make adjustments to the game as needed.
Thank you for your continued support and valuable feedback!
Facebook Twitter Reddit
Mirosuu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
England283 Posts
April 27 2012 01:15 GMT
#2
I like it. Idra will be happy about the potential for better early game scouting vs terran.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
MrSexington
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1768 Posts
April 27 2012 01:15 GMT
#3
Thank you, was looking for the link. ^_^

Will read.
Hoodlum
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States350 Posts
April 27 2012 01:15 GMT
#4
YES, thank you for this xD
xO gaming owner
Sajaki
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada1135 Posts
April 27 2012 01:19 GMT
#5
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.
Inno pls...
JiPrime
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada688 Posts
April 27 2012 01:20 GMT
#6
Good, he knows what's wrong right now.
Hopefully he deals with it quickly.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12702 Posts
April 27 2012 01:21 GMT
#7
looks like zvt has gone back to below 50% again, even after the ghost nerf.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
thefonz
Profile Joined April 2012
Belize5 Posts
April 27 2012 01:23 GMT
#8
Yeah TvP lategame has some serious issues. MVP's game on Antiga--he was up 70 supply and still couldn't end the game because P could always storm his way out of trouble.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#9
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote:
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.


It's "interesting" they still have not acknowledged / addressed this. The only mention we've heard of this was in a previous balance blog where they mentioned about chargelot warp-ins being "powerful" lategame.
Sup
Psychobabas
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
2531 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#10
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote:
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.


I feel you man...
spatz
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany153 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#11
give me that zerg buff
pdd
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia9933 Posts
April 27 2012 01:24 GMT
#12
They should have at least talked about late game TvP....
TI4 Champions: EE-Sama | B7-God | A-God_2000 | Kappa Lord | pieliedie
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
April 27 2012 01:26 GMT
#13
At least they aren't screwing anything up.
I am Terranfying.
EleanorRIgby
Profile Joined March 2008
Canada3923 Posts
April 27 2012 01:26 GMT
#14
according to the numbers tvp is not in a good place and they dont even address it...
savior did nothing wrong
LlamaNamedOsama
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1900 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-27 01:28:43
April 27 2012 01:28 GMT
#15
I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss...
Dario Wünsch: I guess...Creator...met his maker *sunglasses*
Kira__
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden2672 Posts
April 27 2012 01:28 GMT
#16
keep in mind that the stats shown there are ALL leagues... so they mean fuck all.
The truth is, Yagami-kun, I suspect that you may in fact be Kira.
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
April 27 2012 01:29 GMT
#17
Funny how people cried murder when the % was only a little bit higher for Terran.
I am Terranfying.
Mirosuu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
England283 Posts
April 27 2012 01:30 GMT
#18
On April 27 2012 10:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss...

Most represented race in GSL is terran. What's your point?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Andreas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Norway214 Posts
April 27 2012 01:31 GMT
#19
David Kim just oozes of incompetence. All he talks about are statistics, and all he can show to is Blizzard's "justified winrates" which we don't know if are reliable stats or not. The stats we do know are real (map winrates) are skewed as hell. TvP is my main concern right now, and I'd love how David Kim thinks it's balanced that Terran has a slightly better chance to win in the first 13 minutes, and then a really low chance to win once it gets past that point. Insead, all I get to know is that their justified TvP winrate is 50% in Korea, so I guess it's fine?
schmutttt
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia3856 Posts
April 27 2012 01:32 GMT
#20
Even as a Zerg player I feel TvP late game needs addressing.
1 2 3 4 5 69 70 71 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 21m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 244
Hui .81
Rex 67
UpATreeSC 59
MindelVK 12
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 27753
Calm 3809
Bisu 2259
Jaedong 2104
Mini 863
Soma 571
Larva 427
Light 385
ggaemo 338
actioN 272
[ Show more ]
Soulkey 196
Rush 183
firebathero 169
Backho 101
Dewaltoss 97
sorry 47
hero 40
Hm[arnc] 37
Sexy 17
Terrorterran 16
Rock 16
yabsab 11
SilentControl 10
GoRush 9
Dota 2
ODPixel45
febbydoto21
League of Legends
Reynor63
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps1673
fl0m1642
byalli790
Heroes of the Storm
XaKoH 105
Other Games
qojqva1439
Liquid`RaSZi1280
FrodaN706
Beastyqt697
B2W.Neo567
ceh9453
KnowMe384
Trikslyr162
ArmadaUGS100
RotterdaM77
C9.Mang067
Mew2King57
QueenE51
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL140
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 64
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 19
• RayReign 12
• FirePhoenix6
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV420
League of Legends
• Nemesis3238
• TFBlade1609
Other Games
• imaqtpie595
• Shiphtur173
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 21m
Escore
16h 21m
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
17h 21m
OSC
21h 21m
Big Brain Bouts
22h 21m
MaNa vs goblin
Scarlett vs Spirit
Serral vs herO
Korean StarCraft League
1d 9h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 16h
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
1d 17h
IPSL
1d 22h
WolFix vs nOmaD
dxtr13 vs Razz
BSL
2 days
UltrA vs KwarK
Gosudark vs cavapoo
dxtr13 vs HBO
Doodle vs Razz
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
2 days
Ladder Legends
2 days
BSL
3 days
StRyKeR vs rasowy
Artosis vs Aether
JDConan vs OyAji
Hawk vs izu
IPSL
3 days
JDConan vs TBD
Aegong vs rasowy
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Bisu vs Ample
Jaedong vs Flash
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Barracks vs Leta
Royal vs Light
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-04-15
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W3
Escore Tournament S2: W4
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.