EPTYou might learn some micro, but you don´t learn any macro. Teaching cheese is exactly the wrong way.
I am glad that you quit SC2.
[G] The ultimate TvP all in - 11/11 rax metagame exploitat…
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Amoment
Germany175 Posts
You might learn some micro, but you don´t learn any macro. Teaching cheese is exactly the wrong way. I am glad that you quit SC2. | ||
|
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On May 01 2012 04:49 Amoment wrote: Its not that Terran is OP already, but this guide is the biggest garbage I´ve ever seen, sorry to say, very nice guide you have there, but you won´t be a better player with this. You might learn some micro, but you don´t learn any macro. Teaching cheese is exactly the wrong way. I am glad that you quit SC2. On April 28 2012 17:18 Rimak wrote: Whow, I'd never thought I'll see someone defending and even forcing an opinion, that some chezzy allin makes you a overall better player. This is so ridiculous. What next? Photon cannon rush standart play? Planetary fortress into proxy 7 rax? Please do understand me correctly, this build is good in it's effectiveness, Geiko proved it when he tried his version of this. I've tried it, and with no understanding of how to play Terran i've still won. But for god sake do not delude other people that this is good practice strategy or it will get you to better understanding of game. No! This is a cheesy allin, effective yes, easy yes, but in any other way than giving you some easy wins it's not going to help you. Thanks. I understand the attitude of: "improve faster with solid macro play." But why does everyone have the attitude "if you practice an all-in you're awful and don't deserve to live" The ladder needs a ton of people who do all-ins otherwise people who play solid macro games won't actually learn to do the "solid" play. I would argue that, yes, he has improved. He just added a new build to his repertoire that is effective. Nice guide, well written and very detailed. As mentioned on page one, I would be curious how this fares against the PvT FFE that's been cropping up lately. Everyone here is a prude when it comes to all-ins and it's one of the reasons korea is so far ahead of us overall. | ||
|
ImGonnaRideYou
53 Posts
Guarantee you're not that much better than the rest of us. | ||
|
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On May 01 2012 05:11 ImGonnaRideYou wrote: The ladder needs people who play to win. I would like to see the rankings and win-lose of these people saying stuff like "yeah but are you actually getting better?" and "yeah but you got lucky because if the game went on longer you'd probably get supply blocked." Guarantee you're not that much better than the rest of us. Pretty sure they mean something along the lines of: "Doesn't matter what level you are at, playing a solid style will make you improve faster than cheesing all your games." Which I agree with. What I don't agree with is that cheesing is a mortal sin, or shouldn't be done AT ALL. Both are required to become a better player. | ||
|
ZyceR
United States11 Posts
| ||
|
WardenSC
Canada210 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226510 That one got closed so I wonder how long this one would last... | ||
|
Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On May 01 2012 04:50 Clarity_nl wrote: I understand the attitude of: "improve faster with solid macro play." But why does everyone have the attitude "if you practice an all-in you're awful and don't deserve to live" The ladder needs a ton of people who do all-ins otherwise people who play solid macro games won't actually learn to do the "solid" play. I would argue that, yes, he has improved. He just added a new build to his repertoire that is effective. Nice guide, well written and very detailed. As mentioned on page one, I would be curious how this fares against the PvT FFE that's been cropping up lately. Everyone here is a prude when it comes to all-ins and it's one of the reasons korea is so far ahead of us overall. Nono, it's not about telling that a guy who does cheesy allin is awful, pros do cheese also. I really like when I'm being cheesed on ladder, because defending cheese always require your best attention to deal with it, and i love it when I lose, because you can see where you did wrong. There is nothing wrong with a guide for an all-in, especially if you are on losing streak it can get you back in the seat, but the thing throws me off is that people position this to get you to be a better player and get better understanding of the game, and that is just wrong. Btw thx for fixing this topic's name. upd. About the ranking. It's about philosophy, it's either play2win or play4fun. I prefer second, because i really enjoy sc2. | ||
|
Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 01 2012 04:50 Clarity_nl wrote: But why does everyone have the attitude "if you practice an all-in you're awful and don't deserve to live" The ladder needs a ton of people who do all-ins otherwise people who play solid macro games won't actually learn to do the "solid" play. People hate cheeses so much because in SC2, a lot of cheeses cannot be reasonably answered by >95% of the people playing the game, even if they scout it, other than by resorting to BO poker (like going stargate against Terran and hoping they do 1/1/1) or by doing their own cheese which hits earlier. You need to be able to micro at a fairly high level to beat some extremely simple 1a cheeses, and on top of that, the cheeser probably has tons and tons and tons of practice microing his cheese because he does it every game, while you have very little because you only face it one game out of 25, if that. The prime example is proxy gates in the Protoss mirror. Suck at zealot vs. zealot micro? You can't beat it. Sorry. This particular skill is also almost never relevant in standard PvP games either, further increasing the chance that your opponent will not be able to answer. Another example, >90% of Protoss players cannot 1 gate FE and beat 1/1/1. They just can't. You need a fairly high amount of APM to be able to beat it and if you don't have it nothing you do will work, other than guessing they're doing it at the game start and actually making a stargate. Marine/SCV allin is another serious offender as beating it either requires guessing it's coming way before it's reasonable to scout it, or by executing a high level of micro. You must be able to kite with your stalkers while flanking their marines with your probes, (microing two disparate groups of units at the same time is not easy) and while you're doing this you have to make sure your gateways are still pumping units AND you don't supply block. The Terran just has to attack move his stuff, if you're below a certain level of APM nothing you do will ever work other than guessing it's coming way in advance so you can have enough sentries to perma-FF your ramp. Zerg also has serious problems with this against Protoss and 6-gate, microing slow roaches against the allin is hard and if you can't do it extremely well absolutely nothing you do will ever let you win games, other than counter-cheesing with a cheese that hits earlier, like 1-base crap or roach/ling allin. The fact that blind 6 pooling EVERY SINGLE GAME, like more than one person has demonstrated on this board, will get you to grandmaster is why people hate cheese so much. It's far too difficult to deal with if you're not in the top 1-2% of the playerbase, and success against it is highly random. | ||
|
Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On April 27 2012 23:39 oMNY.SEA wrote: Honestly, this is the most amusing thing ever. I cant believe several people will sit here and constantly defend this guide. We know the build will win on ladder 8 games out of 10 for a -little while- (if it gets popular at all, it wont take protoss long to adjust their scouting/reaction). It barely gives you any decent practice so dont pretend it does, it gives minor micro training at best. So like i said before, people using this build arent really getting any better while they train their opponents to defeat their pathetic cheeses. I cant believe anyone using this build on ladder is playing the game for anything more than a few laughs, and playing a build like this will certainly NOT help much in making you a better player so please dont listen to the quoted poster if you are just starting out with sc2. You have no idea what you're talking about. Builds like this are far and away the best builds for newer players to learn because they rely on a really sharp timing; missing a marine, an scv, or a supply depot means your build is 50x worse than if you had played correctly. Besides, the whole game REVOLVES around cheese, if cheese didn't exist the game would be terrible. If you play too greedy and misread what your opponent is doing you deserve to lose, period. People just need a reason to bitch and moan about their losses. With that being said, calling it a metagame revolution is definitely going too far. It's a good cheese build that punishes people that play greedy and gate scout/cyber scout, not much more. On May 01 2012 17:53 Xequecal wrote: People hate cheeses so much because in SC2, a lot of cheeses cannot be reasonably answered by >95% of the people playing the game, even if they scout it, other than by resorting to BO poker (like going stargate against Terran and hoping they do 1/1/1) or by doing their own cheese which hits earlier. You need to be able to micro at a fairly high level to beat some extremely simple 1a cheeses, and on top of that, the cheeser probably has tons and tons and tons of practice microing his cheese because he does it every game, while you have very little because you only face it one game out of 25, if that. The prime example is proxy gates in the Protoss mirror. Suck at zealot vs. zealot micro? You can't beat it. Sorry. This particular skill is also almost never relevant in standard PvP games either, further increasing the chance that your opponent will not be able to answer. Another example, >90% of Protoss players cannot 1 gate FE and beat 1/1/1. They just can't. You need a fairly high amount of APM to be able to beat it and if you don't have it nothing you do will work, other than guessing they're doing it at the game start and actually making a stargate. Marine/SCV allin is another serious offender as beating it either requires guessing it's coming way before it's reasonable to scout it, or by executing a high level of micro. You must be able to kite with your stalkers while flanking their marines with your probes, (microing two disparate groups of units at the same time is not easy) and while you're doing this you have to make sure your gateways are still pumping units AND you don't supply block. The Terran just has to attack move his stuff, if you're below a certain level of APM nothing you do will ever work other than guessing it's coming way in advance so you can have enough sentries to perma-FF your ramp. Zerg also has serious problems with this against Protoss and 6-gate, microing slow roaches against the allin is hard and if you can't do it extremely well absolutely nothing you do will ever let you win games, other than counter-cheesing with a cheese that hits earlier, like 1-base crap or roach/ling allin. The fact that blind 6 pooling EVERY SINGLE GAME, like more than one person has demonstrated on this board, will get you to grandmaster is why people hate cheese so much. It's far too difficult to deal with if you're not in the top 1-2% of the playerbase, and success against it is highly random. If you aren't good enough to beat it you deserve to lose to it. Barring 6 pool and that low-ground rax+supply depot all in, there are VERY few all-ins that people have any right to be whining about, you can scout and hold all of them if you use your brain. Whining about how bad people that cheese are (when every top player does it at least occasionally) is stupid. If they spent half as much time working on their micro and BOs as they do whining they'd be able to win a lot more consistently. | ||
|
Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On May 01 2012 18:29 Skwid1g wrote: You have no idea what you're talking about. Builds like this are far and away the best builds for newer players to learn No. This is. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330787 | ||
|
Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 01 2012 18:29 Skwid1g wrote: If you aren't good enough to beat it you deserve to lose to it. Barring 6 pool and that low-ground rax+supply depot all in, there are VERY few all-ins that people have any right to be whining about, you can scout and hold all of them if you use your brain. Whining about how bad people that cheese are (when every top player does it at least occasionally) is stupid. If they spent half as much time working on their micro and BOs as they do whining they'd be able to win a lot more consistently. The point is beating a lot of these cheeses requires a massively higher skill level than it does to execute the cheese. Gold players can cheese and beat plat players every single time regardless of whether or not they are scouted because the plat players don't have the micro/APM required to mount an effective defense. | ||
|
Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
Thank you TC for making a guide for 11/11 TvP. It's something to mix up my TvP, and maybe I can actually get a win once in awhile. | ||
|
tsango
Australia214 Posts
Also, to all of the people posting the typical "ucantplaymacroQQurbad" - Why should he have to play a 30minute game if he can consistently beat opposing players in 6minutes? If the other person plays greedy, and you take a risk (doing an all in) the pay off is winning the game - ultimately all you've done is apply game winning pressure. If someone were to win a game in 30minutes, you would not cry foul claiming they shouldve played a 45minute game, so why should this be any different? Like with any strategy game, the best players are those who can play through the early,mid and late game with numerous different styles. This would characterise a very aggressive early game play, it's fully within the constraints of the game and should be respected for being so. | ||
|
Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 01 2012 19:00 tsango wrote: How is this any better than a 3rax supply drop all in? I'm assuming it hits fractionally earlier, but is getting there 10 seconds earlier better than having an extra rax worth of marines coming in? Also, to all of the people posting the typical "ucantplaymacroQQurbad" - Why should he have to play a 30minute game if he can consistently beat opposing players in 6minutes? If the other person plays greedy, and you take a risk (doing an all in) the pay off is winning the game - ultimately all you've done is apply game winning pressure. If someone were to win a game in 30minutes, you would not cry foul claiming they shouldve played a 45minute game, so why should this be any different? Like with any strategy game, the best players are those who can play through the early,mid and late game with numerous different styles. This would characterise a very aggressive early game play, it's fully within the constraints of the game and should be respected for being so. It's harder to scout. If you do the supply-drop allin you can't drop the extra raxes until the scout probe has been killed or chased out, and that delays you significantly. (Or you could do the low ground depot+rax wall, but that makes your intention blatantly obvious) This rush looks exactly like a 1 rax gasless FE except for the lowered SCV count, which most players won't take note of. | ||
|
drbrown
Sweden442 Posts
| ||
|
Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
| ||
|
NoBanMeAgain
United States194 Posts
| ||
|
Genome852
United States979 Posts
On May 01 2012 20:09 AeroEffect wrote: lol there is a big difference between cheese and an all-in and this is as all in as you get. all-ins are only good for catching people by surprise. you wont beat anyone using an all in if they think that its coming. Do you even know what cheese means?.. | ||
|
Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
It's a tactic that relies on secrecy, and if revealed usually fails. Like this baddie-bomtastic-build. Sorry to burst your bubble, big boy. | ||
|
alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
On May 01 2012 20:09 AeroEffect wrote: lol there is a big difference between cheese and an all-in and this is as all in as you get. all-ins are only good for catching people by surprise. you wont beat anyone using an all in if they think that its coming. I think you have your definitions completely backwards.... From liquipedia: Cheese: Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent. All-in: In StarCraft, a player is considered all-in when he executes a strategy, usually a large attack that commits all their units, that has no planned follow-up. If the strategy fails he will typically tap out, concede defeat and the game will end. This is both a cheese, and an all-in, as it both relies on the opponent not finding the hidden 2nd barracks, as well as playing the metagame to trick the toss into believing it is a 1 rax expand, and has very weak follow-ups if it fails. You can beat people with all-ins if they know its coming. Cheese is only good for catching people by surprise. | ||
| ||
