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On January 19 2012 00:26 Jazzman88 wrote:
In my experience, random is no different than any other matchup. I generally FE no matter what (unless it's a very specific map type like XNC), and I am comfortable with that opening against every race. I have 2 openings in general for each race, and one is the relative same initial stub across all 3 matchups; with that kind of comfort, I can take a slightly earlier scout than I normally do just to make sure there isn't an unexpected all-in coming. This is not because I expect more cheese, but because you respond differently to different races' cheese (i.e. a 4-rax Marine/SCV all-in is handled very differently by Terrans from a 6-pool, or a 4-gate).
I don't feel that necessarily random = lower skill. It is true that in almost all situations, depth of knowledge/experience kills breadth of knowledge/experience, but it still relates very much to your own state of mind and comfort within that game. Random players trade-off a slight bit of depth in order to gain a psychological edge on their opponent. The easiest way to play against random is to not care about them being random - simply be comfortable with random and scout them when you need to in order to determine your game plan. If you're running an opening that is structurally identical in all 3 race matchups and it will not change period until 20 supply, then don't feel the need to hyper-aggressive scout or prepare for cheese any more than in other matchups.
How can you be comfortable with FE in every matchup when no protoss worth their salt will let you plant a hatch?
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As T I like opening with 1Rax FE vs. random, but the only variation to my play I do in vR is when they try to be smart and block my expo or steal my gasses.
Then I plant 6 barracks out of their vision.
But more serious advice? Just scout after first supply is built or something, just to make sure they are not the cheese-machine-2000 brand of random player.
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I just don't understand the argument "you are just better than a random player because you play only one race".
Ok but battle.net wants even matches. So when i encounter a player, this player got a 50% win ratio against other players of my level.
So i got a 50% win ratio and the random player got a 50% win ratio too.
So maybe i'm better than a random player in a macro game, but it don't make my win ratio higher.
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On January 19 2012 00:35 Magus.421 wrote:
I just don't understand the argument "you are just better than a random player because you play only one race".
Ok but battle.net wants even matches. So when i encounter a player, this player got a 50% win ratio against other players of my level.
So i got a 50% win ratio and the random player got a 50% win ratio too.
So maybe i'm better than a random player in a macro game, but it don't make my win ratio higher.
If you see it like that, why even play the game. Your win ratio is 50%, flip a coin instead of playing ladder. Obviously, your win ratio depends on your skill. Your chance of winning a game isn't 50% just because battle.nets MMR system works to move players towards a 50% ratio. A random player has generally not played even close to as many long games with the race as you have with yours, so your chance of winning should be way above 50%, especially if it's one of the cheesy randoms who use the random card to have a higher chance succeeding with cheese.
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Guys, how can i exactly know my % win ratio in my whole account history?
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I always scout right after I build my 10 depot. If I can manage to find the player before 13 I'll probably FE (obviously depending on the map) but in general I just take my gas at 13.
If Zerg: Reactor Hellion expand
If Toss: Zatic pressure (depending on the map I'll just abort gas and immediately CC)
If Terran: 111 siege (I swear almost all Random Terran do 111 Cloak)
Honestly you should have openers that work against all three races. I also don't encounter very many cheesy Randoms. Probably because at mid Masters is around when cheese stops working really well.
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On January 19 2012 00:41 Maggost wrote:
Guys, how can i exactly know my % win ratio in my whole account history?
You can't. You can use sc2gears to analyze your replays to find it, but that of course depends on you saving all your replays.
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On January 19 2012 00:41 Maggost wrote:
Guys, how can i exactly know my % win ratio in my whole account history?
Get SC2 gears and load up all your replays to it. It will give you all the stats you need, including by matchup and by map.
edit: ninjadd so hard
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On January 18 2012 23:02 ODKStevez wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote:
Hi everyone.
I personally dislike when i'm against a random player. Because i just can't do an usual opening.
In addition, many random players just cheese/all-in (i don't know why). I encounter very few random players on the ladder, but they all all-in.
So when i'm facing a random player, i just go 7RR or 6pool. And i feel like "what a useless game ...".
Yesterday, i did a 7RR and the random player was 6 pooling. 6 pool VS 7RR, what a game ^^
How do you play against random players on the ladder ? 14 gas 14 pool, play safe and scout at 10. Easy. Remember that they are random and until you confirm what they are doing just play safe and scout early. You'll get the hang of it.
This. As Z 14/14 is safe build, which will not set you economicaly back (if i remember right, some pro was doing 14/14 every matchup ;-) )
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On January 19 2012 00:37 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 00:35 Magus.421 wrote:
I just don't understand the argument "you are just better than a random player because you play only one race".
Ok but battle.net wants even matches. So when i encounter a player, this player got a 50% win ratio against other players of my level.
So i got a 50% win ratio and the random player got a 50% win ratio too.
So maybe i'm better than a random player in a macro game, but it don't make my win ratio higher. If you see it like that, why even play the game. Your win ratio is 50%, flip a coin instead of playing ladder. Obviously, your win ratio depends on your skill. Your chance of winning a game isn't 50% just because battle.nets MMR system works to move players towards a 50% ratio. A random player has generally not played even close to as many long games with the race as you have with yours, so your chance of winning should be way above 50%, especially if it's one of the cheesy randoms who use the random card to have a higher chance succeeding with cheese.
Well, it's not really what i was saying.
If a random player got the same MMR as me, it's because a got a 50% win ratio against players with the same "level" as me. And against this other players, i also got a 50% win ratio. It's not "flip a coin", it's just like that. I actually got a 50% win ratio on my last 30 games, like many players on battle.net do.
So i can understand i got a better macro than a random player. But i can't understand why he should be badder than me :/
In fact, many of these players just cheese. So it's not like a "normal" game. I got a 50% win ratio against other player, but i don't know my "level" against cheeses ^^
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On January 18 2012 18:56 Skiblet wrote:
yeah, go 14pool 14 gas into speedling expand. expand on your 13th drone or your scv that just made your supply .for terran open 12 rax 13 gas etc. when playing vs random you want a standard build thats flexible
this is exactly it. the 14/14 expo is the best all around build for zerg, you can get away with doing it in any match up. 14 hatch is a little risky but all around do-able in all 3 match ups as well (depending on map)
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I think as zerg you're pretty fucked if your opponent plays optimally. I'm pretty sure T and P are a bit better in this regaurd as they can just scout after depot/pylon and play a normal game (because of building walls)lthough obviously P ends up using a gate/core on a map where he probably wants to forge FE versus zerg. The best option I've seen is to go 14 pool gasless expo with a drone scout. If you come out versus a terran, I generally think you're behind, and if you come out versus a zerg you have to play very well to not die to baneling pressure. Obviously 14 pool gasless is probably the best build (that isn't very risky) you can do versus toss, so no disadvantage there.
A lot of people are advising 14/14 and I would say that's horrible advice. 14/14 is probably the worst build against terran (that's macro oriented), so you end up with a pretty large disadvantage. You also need to drone scout if you don't find him quickly with an overlord because he could obviously be 1 base baneling'ing you and you need constant ling production to buy time (so he can't morph his right in front of your base). If he 15 hatches you're also pretty far behind as not only did you do a build that is a bit worse (though I argue 14/14 comes out fine versus 15 hatch if played correctly), you have to scout with a drone which is significant chunk of your economy at that time, so he's only farther ahead. If you're versus protoss or terran, anything beyond the initial 4 or so is a complete waste.
You can 15 hatch (or 14 hatch), but you're running the risk of getting 10 pooled (which you shouldn't hold off if he controls correctly) from a zerg or cannon rushed by a protoss.
I think zerg comes out of the vs random pool the worst (with terran coming out the best as you can pretty much 1 rax FE every MU if you scout). A lot of times I just leave the game when I spawn versus a random and I see they're not protoss because it's just not good practice for me and ladder points mean very little as I'm not a professional player vying for a spot at blizzcon. But as I said, I believe you're in the realm of being safest (and best) versus the greatest amount of things if you open 14 pool gasless expand.
I would love it if Blizz changed the feature for random to just spawning them as a race (so you can see it in the loading screen). Almost every game I've played that had a faction/race feature does this, and I just don't think playing against a random player is fun (because you're pretty likely to end up at a disadvantage one way or the other just because he chose random).
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Because a random player plays each race 1/3 as much as a typical person would, I recommend that you try to push the game towards late game as much as possible, because the possibility that he's encountered the scenarios that you're more familiar with are very unlikely.
Use a random player's lack of experience against him somehow.
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On January 19 2012 01:16 Animostas wrote:
Because a random player plays each race 1/3 as much as a typical person would, I recommend that you try to push the game towards late game as much as possible, because the possibility that he's encountered the scenarios that you're more familiar with are very unlikely.
Use a random player's lack of experience against him somehow.
As a random player, this is only partially true. I feel I have holes in my game, but ti's not always the late game. For example, I feel fairly comfortable in PvZ until the middish game where we're both at 100-120 supply and the first wave of upgrades have kicked in (blink, 1/1, roach speed, etc). If things get beyond that and I'm on 3 bases adding a healthy colossus count, i feel comfortable again. I feel comfortable TvT until the late game, where I have some difficulty judging when to transition into BC, but feel comfortable again once we hit the ultra late game and the game's down to chaos, nukes, and yamato cannons everywhere. As long as your random opponent is going for some early all-in, I think you just play it like normal. The only adjustments you should make are to your early game
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Zerg: on smaller maps go speedling expo, on bigger maps you can try to hatch first with early scout.
Protoss: on non-forge FE maps just open with 9scout and gate at your ramp if you don't know his race yet, and you'll know race by the time you're making any other decisions (which is like 18 supply). On forge FE maps it sucks but yeah do the same thing, you don't really have a choice.
Terran: Wall + factory on smaller maps, wall + gasless FE on bigger maps.
It's a pain but definitely manageable.
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As 99% Random players only play Random because it gives them a minor advantage when doing their shitty 1base all-in I'll also do one. Depending on the map it will be either 9/9 Proxy Gates (if a 2player map or XelNaga/Metalopolis) or else a 20probe 4gate.
My win rate against randoms is decent enough but more importantly: the game doesn't take too long so I have another person next that actually picks a race.
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On January 19 2012 02:33 Wroshe wrote:
As 99% Random players only play Random because it gives them a minor advantage when doing their shitty 1base all-in I'll also do one. Depending on the map it will be either 9/9 Proxy Gates (if a 2player map or XelNaga/Metalopolis) or else a 20probe 4gate.
My win rate against randoms is decent enough but more importantly: the game doesn't take too long so I have another person next that actually picks a race.
I think most players who plays random do it because they wanna play all races, at least thats what I think. You have fun with your 1/3 of the game, while I enjoy every bit of it.
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I typically play more safe than normal, and I'm ok with that because I know my macro is going to be better than a random player so I don't need to "steal the lead" as much as I would typically.
The longer the game drags on the more ahead I find myself; as with any player the late game is the least explored game so playing against a random player in the late game is going to be majorly in my favor. He's played the scenario 1/3 the amount I have at least.
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I never understood the hate for random players. Speedling expand is a safe opening against all 3 races. It's not ideal, but a tiny advantage like that is really not a big deal and has little affect on the rest of the game.
Protoss can make a gateway and pylon next to their main and wall off with cyber/gate if they see it's Zerg.
I don't think Terran has much problems, not sure though.
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EPT
