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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
How can you be comfortable with FE in every matchup when no protoss worth their salt will let you plant a hatch? Sorry, I should have specified that I am a Terran player. 1-rax FE is generally safe unless you fail to scout the 4-gate properly or the Protoss runs blind for Voidray all-in. I haven't yet seen a random player Voidray all-in me, though: IF they all-in (which doesn't happen that often) it tends to be 4-gate for Protoss or 6-gate Blink. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 04:58 Vindicare605 wrote: Do you have any experience actually playing Random or are you just assuming? I face FFE's and hatch firsts all the time when I play Random because there are actually quite a few players on the ladder that will open against Randoms exactly how they would normally or because they sent an earlier scout which is another option. Just yesterday I played a ZvZ in which I did a 13 hatch/pool against a guy that did a 15 hatch and the game progressed immediately into the midgame with only minor Zergling scuffles. He did it blindly btw, and if I had been the kind of random player that cheesed every game I would have had an instant win instead he beat me straight up in a macro game after he did a risky double expand behind muta harass that I didn't punish enough. More often my games play out exactly like standard match ups than not. Your statements are based on either extremely limited experience or bias. Neither of which have any application to my own ladder experience. Do not assume things about playing Random or Random players if you do not want to be criticized for it. This post makes me think that you're not facing opponents of a very high caliber (it's no wonder, playing random must be quite hard past a certain point). It's litterally impossible to "open FFE" like you would normally against Z, because opening FFE (even just placing his pylon at the choke to prepare for the forge) is suicidal vs P. I mean, wtf, if I'm random P and I see the guy planting his pylon in low ground or far away from his nexus on Tal Darim, there is so much I can do to abuse it it's not even funny. A 4 gate will likely be an insta win, and a free expand will do as well if he puts up cannons. I don't know how ZvR works, but PvR is a real mess, because all 3 protoss matchups require a different opening, that are decided very early on, sometimes with the first pylon placement. In PvT, it's very macro early expand oriented, PvZ, you can't do that at all and it's more forge expand and 1 base "I take my natural when I have enough sentries to protect it", and in PvP, it's very 1 base oriented and sentries are useless to protect an expand. PvR is not TvR, where I assume you can wall off and go 1 rax FE every single game without much difficulty. Considering all this, FFE against random is just absurd. So we agree then, "Random" is to have fun and dick around, not to play "competitive" like the first guy was right to mention. False, you are overgeneralizing and I do not appreciate it. I play Random because A: I like every race's playstyle. B: I like the fact that my opponents will not open greedy or with a match up specific cheese like Proxy gates or proxy 2 rax, and C: because I find that I get more enjoyment out of the game by playing Random. I rarely rush, and I play a macro style with Random. My ladder games last an average of over 20 minutes in every match up except for PvP and ZvZ. I utilize the random advantage in order to open with an econ build every game and not have to worry about my opponent going for a super greedy build that I then have to harass or all in against. That's how I play random and I know several other random players that play it the same way. Do not lump us all together with the ones that use the Random advantage to all in with. We do not like it. Sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention, although I generally don't like playing against random players (like all players that don't play random, and that's a lot, I hope). What you misunderstood however is that I don't have any more respect for macro cheesers than for rushing cheesers. I agree that it must be very pleasant to play every single game against an opponent scared shitless of "what the hell this clown is going to throw at him" (It's exactly my thoughts when I play versus random :D, don't take it personally, I just imagine some guy clothed like a clown with multiple colors, trying to throw at you magic tricks and unfunny jokes :D) and playing overly safe and giving you away free advantages. You use the random advantage, fine, but I think quite a few people consider it an unfair advantage, or at least "lame". You advocate playing random in a way that somehow abuses the fact that your opponent doesn't know your race, while you most likely know his. That's exactly what I don't like with Random players. I don't care if they all in with it or double command center first or whatever, they play in a gimmicky way. On the other hand, of course I have the utmost respect for players who want to master the 3 races, be those players that dedicate alternatively X ladder games to each race, who tell at the start of the game their race to their opponent, or even who just play random the normal way but don't overabuse it as a free bonus. I'm convinced there are plenty of people like that, don't worry, but there are just 10 times more people who cheese with Random and 5 times more who believe they play standard ZvP, while their opponent is actually playing PvR, not PvZ. Edit: I played a macro random (being able to go expo first as all races bcus they wont cheese if they dont know the matchup). As I wrote above, this in itself is very cheesy. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26993 Posts
I also have only ran into randoms this season on Tal'Darim Altar, and as a Protoss player it is the most annoying experience I have ever had in Starcraft. Can't FFE in case he's not Zerg, if he's Zerg I'm 9/10 times behind based on a coinflip. Have to go a 12 gate because if I don't I auto-lose to an optimal 4 gate. Can't scout for cheese optimally until my probe enters his base and sees his race. Just a pain all-round really. Nothing against the concept of playing random, but I think in the loadin screen it should say something like Random (Protoss) or whatever they've rolled. Random players cannot master playing all three races if they are rolling random, because of the distortion the lack of knowledge about what race they have spawned as will cause to their opponent. This way the legitimate random players who want to learn all 3 races can do so, and indeed better than they could otherwise given they are playing against their opponent's optimal openings, and the cheesing scrubs no longer have their random crutch and have to learn to play the game properly. | ||
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eeizbee
Canada19 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16122 Posts
On January 19 2012 05:48 ZenithM wrote: This post makes me think that you're not facing opponents of a very high caliber (it's no wonder, playing random must be quite hard past a certain point). It's litterally impossible to "open FFE" like you would normally against Z, because opening FFE (even just placing his pylon at the choke to prepare for the forge) is suicidal vs P. I mean, wtf, if I'm random P and I see the guy planting his pylon in low ground or far away from his nexus on Tal Darim, there is so much I can do to abuse it it's not even funny. A 4 gate will likely be an insta win, and a free expand will do as well if he puts up cannons. I don't know how ZvR works, but PvR is a real mess, because all 3 protoss matchups require a different opening, that are decided very early on, sometimes with the first pylon placement. In PvT, it's very macro early expand oriented, PvZ, you can't do that at all and it's more forge expand and 1 base "I take my natural when I have enough sentries to protect it", and in PvP, it's very 1 base oriented and sentries are useless to protect an expand. PvR is not TvR, where I assume you can wall off and go 1 rax FE every single game without much difficulty. Considering all this, FFE against random is just absurd. So we agree then, "Random" is to have fun and dick around, not to play "competitive" like the first guy was right to mention. Sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention, although I generally don't like playing against random players (like all players that don't play random, and that's a lot, I hope). What you misunderstood however is that I don't have any more respect for macro cheesers than for rushing cheesers. I agree that it must be very pleasant to play every single game against an opponent scared shitless of "what the hell this clown is going to throw at him" (It's exactly my thoughts when I play versus random :D, don't take it personally, I just imagine some guy clothed like a clown with multiple colors, trying to throw at you magic tricks and unfunny jokes :D) and playing overly safe and giving you away free advantages. You use the random advantage, fine, but I think quite a few people consider it an unfair advantage, or at least "lame". You advocate playing random in a way that somehow abuses the fact that your opponent doesn't know your race, while you most likely know his. That's exactly what I don't like with Random players. I don't care if they all in with it or double command center first or whatever, they play in a gimmicky way. On the other hand, of course I have the utmost respect for players who want to master the 3 races, be those players that dedicate alternatively X ladder games to each race, who tell at the start of the game their race to their opponent, or even who just play random the normal way but don't overabuse it as a free bonus. I'm convinced there are plenty of people like that, don't worry, but there are just 10 times more people who cheese with Random and 5 times more who believe they play standard ZvP, while their opponent is actually playing PvR, not PvZ. Edit: As I wrote above, this in itself is very cheesy. What you're essentially saying is that opponents have to play a very specific way for you to NOT consider them cheesy. Who's the bigger jerk in this scenario? The guy playing each race in an unorthodox way that doesn't involve all ins, or the guy who immediately criticizes anything that isn't 100% standard. you're also assuming that when I say i use the random advantage to play a macro game that I play ultra greedy every game. That isn't true either, I simply use it as a way of assuring myself that my opponent isn't going to do something cheesy or greedy also, (although often they will anyway. I just had a Zerg take a fast third as soon as he scouted i was Terran after going 15 hatch which i punished with typical 1 rax bunker pressure) I can't imagine that you have much respect for anyone on the ladder with the narrow perspective you use to play this game with. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:30 Vindicare605 wrote: What you're essentially saying is that opponents have to play a very specific way for you to NOT consider them cheesy. Who's the bigger jerk in this scenario? The guy playing each race in an unorthodox way that doesn't involve all ins, or the guy who immediately criticizes anything that isn't 100% standard. you're also assuming that when I say i use the random advantage to play a macro game that I play ultra greedy every game. That isn't true either, I simply use it as a way of assuring myself that my opponent isn't going to do something cheesy or greedy also, (although often they will anyway. I just had a Zerg take a fast third as soon as he scouted i was Terran after going 15 hatch which i punished with typical 1 rax bunker pressure) I can't imagine that you have much respect for anyone on the ladder with the narrow perspective you use to play this game with. Yeah, I understand I can come off as way too harsh in my posts when I speak of randoms, but in fact I'm a very respectful opponent ingame and I actually don't mind that much playing against random (it's just very uncomfortable as a P at the beginning when you know that your first pylon at 0:47 can be the first bad "decision" you make :D). As for the style of games I like, I don't like blind all ins like 6 pools or cannon rushes on ladder, which coincidentally enough random players GENERALLY like. I think they have their roles in BoX series, but they have nothing to do on ladder, as the most basic hope-based "I want to get free points" strategies. I don't appreciate greedy builds that much because I feel forced to punish it or let it slide to play the longer game and be behind anyway. But I understand that it's good to try them yourself to see if you can defend what your opponent chooses to punish you with. Overall I like safe, scouting based macro play, flashy micro or multitask-intensive builds and powerful reactionary all ins, stuff like that, it's not actually too hard to ask for... I just wanted you to kind of understand that there are legit concerns of us when we play against random and they can explain a bit the "hate towards randoms" (but not totally justify it). I'm not trying to bash you for wanting to play the 3 races peacefully, you can play as you wish after all. I simply use it as a way of assuring myself that my opponent isn't going to do something cheesy or greedy also Still, my main point stand, most random players use their "race" to bypass safety measures developped by other 1v1 players or restrict their opponent's build order at the start of the game. The best example would be a ZvP Taldarim where P cannot forge fast expand. How easy it must seem for the random Zerg... Forgive me if I cannot get myself to like it and find it fair... | ||
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NoisyNinja
United States991 Posts
And they say we're the cheesers (we being Random players). Just pick a stable opening, preferably pool first on the off chance the Random player you're facing is a skillless douche and cheeses you and also pool first prevents you from dying in a ZvZ. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16122 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:48 ZenithM wrote: Yeah, I understand I can come off as way too harsh in my posts when I speak of randoms, but in fact I'm a very respectful opponent ingame and I actually don't mind that much playing against random (it's just very uncomfortable as a P at the beginning when you know that your first pylon at 0:47 can be the first bad "decision" you make :D). As for the style of games I like, I don't like blind all ins like 6 pools or cannon rushes on ladder, which coincidentally enough random players GENERALLY like. I think they have their roles in BoX series, but they have nothing to do on ladder, as the most basic hope-based "I want to get free points" strategies. I don't appreciate greedy builds that much because I feel forced to punish it or let it slide to play the longer game and be behind anyway. But I understand that it's good to try them yourself to see if you can defend what your opponent chooses to punish you with. Overall I like safe, scouting based macro play, flashy micro or multitask-intensive builds and powerful reactionary all ins, stuff like that, it's not actually too hard to ask for... I just wanted you to kind of understand that there are legit concerns of us when we play against random and they can explain a bit the "hate towards randoms" (but not totally justify it). I'm not trying to bash you for wanting to play the 3 races peacefully, you can play as you wish after all. Still, my main point stand, most random players use their "race" to bypass safety measures developped by other 1v1 players or restrict their opponent's build order at the start of the game. The best example would be a ZvP Taldarim where P cannot forge fast expand. How easy it must seem for the random Zerg... Forgive me if I cannot get myself to like it and find it fair... I should mention that while I play random on the ladder I play all of my practice matches with a specific race so that I DO know what to do if I get cheesed early on with each race. I do not play random on the ladder for the advantage, I utilize it sure because it's almost impossible not to in some way but I do not play random for it. I play random because I like the challenge of learning every race A, the fun of playing every match up B, because i like every race's playstyle C, and because I think random has the coolest portraits D. Am i familiar with the fact that there are a lot of random players on the ladder that cheese yes, but do all of us? No. I don't like being lumped in with them it'd be the same as accusing every zerg of 6 pooling, every protoss as a cannon rusher and every Terran as a cheesy Terran player (they have a lot to choose from.) It's not fair to make those kind of blanket generalizations. | ||
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snively
United States1159 Posts
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
I espeacilly got stoned by the argument that youre only imagining your opponent is playing pvz when he in reality is playing PvR. From now on i will stop playing random and rather pick 1 race at random each game beforehand. Thank you for enlightening me | ||
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eeizbee
Canada19 Posts
Still, my main point stand, most random players use their "race" to bypass safety measures developped by other 1v1 players or restrict their opponent's build order at the start of the game. how does he not understand the connection between "i play random" and "every protoss i play is such a dumbass they don't even wall off when i get zerg" random is pretty bullshit, we all know the ladder maps aren't balanced that is why they don't use them in tournaments, same goes for random. ladder is a 2nd rate gaming experience if we can all agree on that there is nothing to argue about here. starcraft is the only game i'v played in 10 years that people who think they are good worry about the gay matchmaking games. you guys remind me of people in halo who thought they were pro because they had a level 40 in Team Slayer lol (they were garbage). | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:04 Teoman wrote: Ive read this entire thread now, and i have been quite enlightened. I espeacilly got stoned by the argument that youre only imagining your opponent is playing pvz when he in reality is playing PvR. From now on i will stop playing random and rather pick 1 race at random each game beforehand. Thank you for enlightening me Haha, don't stop playing random man, they do have cool portraits and they can get the other races' portraits at the same time. Don't worry about clichés some of us may associate to random players. If I could play Zerg well enough, I'd actually like to get 25 wins of random to have the Sentry portrait, but heh, my Zerg sucks lol. Shall I 6 pool my way to this portrait? + Show Spoiler + j/k ;D | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:10 eeizbee wrote: if you aren't protoss you don't really have a right to bitch about vs random. literally the first pylon we put down will make or break a matchup for us PRE SCOUT. terran and zerg can open standard and early scout to be safe, but the toss has to drop that first pylon knowing what he's up against. basically to be safe in PVR you drop a pylon right next to your base, it's the best odds because if your opponent is P or T you just opened standard, if your opponent is zerg you might as well gg. I've held several 6/7pools with a gateway next to my base. I'm not sure if they played it wrong or whatever though. Anyway, I random a lot and I never blind cheese. (7pool, proxy gate/rax) The best way to play vs random is to open a standard build that's decent vs all 3 races. Protoss and Terran should open relatively the same and Zerg can 14/14 I guess. 15 hatch would be nice too but I think that autoloses to a lot of stuff. Anyway, why would you worry about it? Chances are if they random full time, they're 3x less experienced with the matchup than you. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26993 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:02 Vindicare605 wrote: I should mention that while I play random on the ladder I play all of my practice matches with a specific race so that I DO know what to do if I get cheesed early on with each race. I do not play random on the ladder for the advantage, I utilize it sure because it's almost impossible not to in some way but I do not play random for it. I play random because I like the challenge of learning every race A, the fun of playing every match up B, because i like every race's playstyle C, and because I think random has the coolest portraits D. Am i familiar with the fact that there are a lot of random players on the ladder that cheese yes, but do all of us? No. I don't like being lumped in with them it'd be the same as accusing every zerg of 6 pooling, every protoss as a cannon rusher and every Terran as a cheesy Terran player (they have a lot to choose from.) It's not fair to make those kind of blanket generalizations. I posted earlier, but would you as a random player object to your race being revealed i.e in the loading screen if you rolled Protoss it would have your Bnet name, Random (Protoss)? If you genuinely want to play all 3 races in a standard way, you should surely not want the distortion that comes with the vRandom mindset that has to be adopted by your opponent? | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:12 ZenithM wrote: If I could play Zerg well enough, I'd actually like to get 25 wins of random to have the Sentry portrait, but heh, my Zerg sucks lol. Shall I 6 pool my way to this portrait? + Show Spoiler + j/k ;D Go for the forcefielder mate! You'd be surprised by how fantastic it is to blow stuff up with loads of banelings;) | ||
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eeizbee
Canada19 Posts
I've held several 6/7pools with a gateway next to my base. I'm not sure if they played it wrong or whatever though. Anyway, I random a lot and I never blind cheese. (7pool, proxy gate/rax) The best way to play vs random is to open a standard build that's decent vs all 3 races. Protoss and Terran should open relatively the same and Zerg can 14/14 I guess. 15 hatch would be nice too but I think that autoloses to a lot of stuff. Anyway, why would you worry about it? Chances are if they random full time, they're 3x less experienced with the matchup than you. i'm not worried about it i don't really care about ladder. a 6 pool is yes very easily held even with a 1 gate opener, but what do you do when 40 speedling's run in and you opened gate with a pylon beside your base?. the consensus is (i think) that if you don't wall off or do a gap wall off with a zealot block there is no way you are going to hold the zerg's first push, even if they didn't start the match thinking "i'm going to push this guy early" they would be stupid not to when they see they can wander right up your ramp and in your base. | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:12 ZenithM wrote: Haha, don't stop playing random man, they do have cool portraits and they can get the other races' portraits at the same time. Don't worry about clichés some of us may associate to random players. If I could play Zerg well enough, I'd actually like to get 25 wins of random to have the Sentry portrait, but heh, my Zerg sucks lol. Shall I 6 pool my way to this portrait? + Show Spoiler + j/k ;D Hey, Hey!! while i played random not to cheese for portraits, but because i love all races (refer to my picture on first page :D) I was also very hungry for that high templar portrait But if i am to succed in code S i must have ladder training with insecure persons, then i must at least ease some of their fears of the dreadful fog of war And anyways, Now that i look at it, the probe portrait is really, really cute aswell. | ||
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goal 888
167 Posts
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
if you don't have enough variety in your game to be able to play versus random (e.g. a protoss player who only knows how to play ffe in PvZ) then that is your own fault, not the random players. | ||
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-Switch-
Canada506 Posts
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