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Magus.421
France159 Posts
I personally dislike when i'm against a random player. Because i just can't do an usual opening. In addition, many random players just cheese/all-in (i don't know why). I encounter very few random players on the ladder, but they all all-in. So when i'm facing a random player, i just go 7RR or 6pool. And i feel like "what a useless game ...". Yesterday, i did a 7RR and the random player was 6 pooling. 6 pool VS 7RR, what a game ^^ How do you play against random players on the ladder ? | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote: Hi everyone. I personally dislike when i'm against a random player. Because i just can't do an usual opening. In addition, many random players just cheese/all-in (i don't know why). I encounter very few random players on the ladder, but they all all-in. So when i'm facing a random player, i just go 7RR or 6pool. And i feel like "what a useless game ...". Yesterday, i did a 7RR and the random player was 6 pooling. 6 pool VS 7RR, what a game ^^ How do you play against random players on the ladder ? or you can do a stable build that technically works against all 3 races (i.e. 14/14) and then roll like that until you find them? | ||
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Skiblet
South Africa206 Posts
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jeeneeus
1168 Posts
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snexwang
Australia224 Posts
On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote:How do you play against random players on the ladder ? First, I swear out loud to myself because random players are skill-less fucking faggots who can die in a fire.Then, once I'm done with my short profanity session, I proceed to play hatch first. If I scout protoss or a zerg running an early pool opening, I'll cancel the hatch and throw down my pool. The game then proceeds as normal. If the random player wins, it was only because he chose random and hit me with an all in. If I win, it was obviously because I'm just the better player and my opponent should never hope to ever beat me because they'll never be on my level (because they chose random).  + Show Spoiler + DISCLAIMER: This is a joke post (which should be obvious, but this is the internet). Before you search for my profile on bnet, I am aware of the fact that I am terrible at the game. Put down your pitchfork. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
so you generalize that all random players are just cheesers and all-iners... so you only cheese and all-in against them and then you complain that the games are worthless? the fuck? | ||
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Smipims
United States61 Posts
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psychotics
United States184 Posts
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Magus.421
France159 Posts
wait wait wait so you generalize that all random players are just cheesers and all-iners... so you only cheese and all-in against them and then you complain that the games are worthless? the fuck? I just generalize for my games against random players. I can give you all my replays against random players in seasons 3, 4 and 5 if you want to check ^^ All players on forums just say "no, i'm a random player and i don't all-in" (like jeeneeus). I believe them. But on the ladder it's not as they say. 14 gaz 14 pool is my usual opening in ZvZ so yes i think i can use it against random. | ||
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
Just scout on 10 and do a 15 hatch. Against zerg and terran, 15 hatch is perfectly fine. (Unless you're on tal'darim where 15h vs. Z is BO loss to most things, then you should probably scout on 9 and hope you scout him in time, if not then 14/14). Against protoss, if he went forge first then he would have to have probe out to either block your hatch (just put down 15 pool or 14/14 depending on preference/timing), and if you don't scout him before 15 drones and enough minerals, just put down the hatch and patrol a drone at your ramp, and if he cannons cancel your hatch at the last second and play as normal. If he nexus first you play as normal, and if he goes gate first then you play as normal. So basically the only time you will get screwed up is if you don't scout him and he goes for cannon rush. 1/3 chance to have a chance at going forge first cannon and you don't scout first. Chances are like 10% that you have to cancel and play from behind. Totally worth the 15h imo. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
I'd say something like 14/14 for Zerg (I used it standard in all matchups before, works fine), 3rax expand as terran and 3gate expand as toss. | ||
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Chubz
France119 Posts
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k3m4
Germany94 Posts
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
So even though you are both platinum, you are also (according to the matchmaking system) at the same skill level. Simply because you have both worked your way up the same progress ladder And in answer to OP. I wont disagree with you that many randoms cheese, but also. Fighting predicted fire with fire may end up getting a lot of innocent people burnt  Give randoms more love. We shouldnt be punished for loving every race equally much :D + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5L23t.jpg) | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
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psychotics
United States184 Posts
Actually, all those (or both) comments about "since he is random in your league you are better than him" (not direct quote, but the basic idea) is wrong. well no its actually a pretty reliable statement. because randoms have to know every match up and a person who chooses are race only has to know 3, a random player in the same league is not going to be as strong of a player as the one who chooses 1 race IN A LONGER MACRO GAME. this is the reason why most random players cheese. they can easily learn and master 1 cheese per match up because this doesn't require them to know everything about every aspect of the game for each race and match up. at low levels this is less apparant since both player will make alot of mistakes but the random play should either make more or capitalize on less mistakes as their opponent. this is all generalizations and of course you could run into a top masters smurf account that hes playing random on. but in general its safe to assume your late game is going to be stronger when facing a random player. | ||
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ThatGuy89
United Kingdom1968 Posts
If it is zerg then its fine, but if its a map like TDA or antigua and they've went hatch first youre massively behind random is op, remove it please blizz -_- ^that bit there is a joke  | ||
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jeeneeus
1168 Posts
On January 18 2012 20:44 ThatGuy89 wrote: as a toss player i hate vs random. You HAVE to build the pylong near your main ramp incase its zerg. If its not, theres no massive problem, but you've lost slight mining time (normally pylon would be right next to nexus) and some buildings might be easier to pick off. If it is zerg then its fine, but if its a map like TDA or antigua and they've went hatch first youre massively behind random is op, remove it please blizz -_- ^that bit there is a joke What really annoys me about this argument is how silly and selfish it is. So you lose like 5 minerals. If you're scouting after pylon, which you should, you should most likely find out what race he is, and if not zerg you can build the other buildings behind. You'll eventually need a pylon near the ramp for emergency warp ins so that's not a big deal. Also yes it's kind of annoying to not be able to FFE if you're against zerg, but I honestly don't think 1 gate expand/3 gate expand isn't too bad compared to FFE (The zerg can not take a fast third against 1 gate or 3 gate). You know what the random player has to deal with? Learning triple the amount of races and match ups. Do you have any idea how much more difficult it is to learn everything there is to know about all the races and match ups? It's not like the match ups are similar enough that things like build order and timings are the same. You know how different pvz, pvp, and pvt feel? Now try adding six more different things to that. But I'm sorry random inconveniences you into losing some mining time. | ||
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FaCE_1
Canada6172 Posts
I play random and could help you by playing a coupel game against you. I don't all-in as a random player. and god I found funny ppl say "don't worry you are better" because he his random... | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
As protoss I think it's kindda hard. I usually open 9pylon (scout) - 13gate (at ramp)... but often times it just doesn't feel good. Like if I play PvR on TDA it's just not a good feeling... I wouldn't place my pylon/gate in that position in any straight matchup (PvT, PvP, PvZ). However, the random player will often times have less experience with playing his race than you should have playing only 1 race. So a small macro disadvantage should be survivable. Anyway, as you say. They cheese alot. I think I face 75%+ cheesing when meeting random players. | ||
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Chemiczny84
Poland458 Posts
On January 18 2012 20:38 psychotics wrote: well no its actually a pretty reliable statement. because randoms have to know every match up and a person who chooses are race only has to know 3, a random player in the same league is not going to be as strong of a player as the one who chooses 1 race IN A LONGER MACRO GAME. this is the reason why most random players cheese. they can easily learn and master 1 cheese per match up because this doesn't require them to know everything about every aspect of the game for each race and match up. at low levels this is less apparant since both player will make alot of mistakes but the random play should either make more or capitalize on less mistakes as their opponent. this is all generalizations and of course you could run into a top masters smurf account that hes playing random on. but in general its safe to assume your late game is going to be stronger when facing a random player. what U wrote makes little sense. Think about it- I am a random player, in platinum. I had to learn all 3 matchups, ok. But, I got to this platinum, so I had to beat more or less same people that a player choosing one race would... U never know, every random has better and worse matchups. U cannot assume he got his weaker race, it could be his favourite, in which case he is gonna be much better than U(if in the same league). example: my favourite is toss, least liked is terran. With toss I beat low diamond terrans EZ , but if I get terran I can lose to gold. If a terran opponent assumes I'm worse in late game and I get toss, they get crushed. my point being: it all depends whether random gets his favourite race or not, because if he gets his best he is probably better than U (cause his weaker matchups caused him to be in a league lower than he would be just playin' one race) | ||
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Magus.421
France159 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:05 FaCE_1 wrote: which league are you? I'm probably mid-high diamond (don't play enough 1v1 to be sure). I play random and could help you by playing a coupel game against you. I don't all-in as a random player. and god I found funny ppl say "don't worry you are better" because he his random... I'm low/mid master on the EU server. 14/14 isn't really what you want if your random opponent rolled terran and went 1rax FE.. Then you'll have a macro disadvantage compared to hatch first. That's why i dislike random players. In ZvP i do 11 pool 18 hatch, in ZvT i do hatch first and i do 14/14 (or 15/15) in ZvZ. Against a random i can't use a pre-define opening. I can go 14/14 but there's 2 MU where i'll feel very uncomfortable. | ||
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FaCE_1
Canada6172 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:15 Magus.421 wrote: I'm low/mid master on the EU server. That's why i dislike random players. In ZvP i do 11 pool 18 hatch, in ZvT i do hatch first and i do 14/14 (or 15/15) in ZvZ. Against a random i can't use a pre-define opening. I can go 14/14 but there's 2 MU where i'll feel very uncomfortable. ah crap.. EU  , i'm on Na so can't help . We could had some gg, i did beat up some master in big macro fest. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:05 FaCE_1 wrote: which league are you? I'm probably mid-high diamond (don't play enough 1v1 to be sure). I play random and could help you by playing a coupel game against you. I don't all-in as a random player. and god I found funny ppl say "don't worry you are better" because he his random... There's a good reason why 99% of all pros play one race only. It's more or less impossible to play on a high level with more than one race since you need extremely good knowledge of timings and reactions. It might not show in your diamond position, but a good player of race X could definitely critique your play with said race. I mean, it's nothing but logical that someone who has played 2000 games as Race X is better than someone who has played 2000 games as Race X, Y and Z. | ||
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jeeneeus
1168 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:15 Magus.421 wrote: I'm low/mid master on the EU server. That's why i dislike random players. In ZvP i do 11 pool 18 hatch, in ZvT i do hatch first and i do 14/14 (or 15/15) in ZvZ. Against a random i can't use a pre-define opening. I can go 14/14 but there's 2 MU where i'll feel very uncomfortable. Why don't you just do 11 pool 18 hatch in all the match ups? Assuming you're doing the 11 over pool, this is the second most economical build (based on an old TL thread). This is pretty strong against all the match ups. It's super safe against any cheese, it will punish any zerg that goes hatch first or 14/14 (At worst you can get drones to be pulled for some time). Against terran, even if they did gasless FE, they're going to be afraid of moving to the lowground for quite some time because you had lings out so early. | ||
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Magus.421
France159 Posts
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jeeneeus
1168 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:26 Magus.421 wrote: 11 pool 18 hatch is not very good in ZvZ. I use it sometime in ZvT (on Xel'Naga cavern for instance), but never in ZvZ. Why not? | ||
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FaCE_1
Canada6172 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:18 Tobberoth wrote: There's a good reason why 99% of all pros play one race only. It's more or less impossible to play on a high level with more than one race since you need extremely good knowledge of timings and reactions. It might not show in your diamond position, but a good player of race X could definitely critique your play with said race. I mean, it's nothing but logical that someone who has played 2000 games as Race X is better than someone who has played 2000 games as Race X, Y and Z. I know that at pro-level, you need to pick a race but, bellow grand-master, you can play random the same level as anyone. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:28 FaCE_1 wrote: I know that at pro-level, you need to pick a race but, bellow grand-master, you can play random the same level as anyone. No you can't, the same constraint holds. Sure, lets say a random player has played 6000 games, about 2000 for each race, and you've only played 2000 for your race. You're in equal positions on the ladder, and you've played the same amount of games for your races. You lose to the random player. That's sort of like losing to a smurf, the random player has gimped himself and would have been MUCH better had he played all those 6000 games on a main race. While that means that you can definitely meet a random player who is good enough with his race to take you down in a straight up game, it's not something you should worry about since it makes sense to lose to someone who has played 3 times the amount you have. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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OmniEulogy
Canada6592 Posts
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FaCE_1
Canada6172 Posts
I didn't play more then 50 1v1 but I can play at diamond level with any race. | ||
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OmniEulogy
Canada6592 Posts
I feel I have to touch on this. if an early pool is indeed coming in ZvZ (8pool or later) going 11 pool vs 14/14 doesn't actually make it any easier to hold and it only puts you slightly further behind economically from what I've seen in practice matches and ladder games. Micro is of course important in both situations but even a 14/14 can hold a 6 pool just as easily as 11 pool. Most of it comes down to moving your drones around anyway | ||
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jeeneeus
1168 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:45 OmniEulogy wrote: I feel I have to touch on this. if an early pool is indeed coming in ZvZ (8pool or later) going 11 pool vs 14/14 doesn't actually make it any easier to hold and it only puts you slightly further behind economically from what I've seen in practice matches and ladder games. Micro is of course important in both situations but even a 14/14 can hold a 6 pool just as easily as 11 pool. Most of it comes down to moving your drones around anyway So if holding early pools is similar in both these situations, and I'm pretty sure 11 overpool 18 hatch is better economically than 14/14 (again based on that old TL thread), then why not go 11 overpool? Personally I always go 14 hatch and so have never done 11 overpool, but I think in theory it would be the second best build. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:50 jeeneeus wrote: So if holding early pools is similar in both these situations, and I'm pretty sure 11 overpool 18 hatch is better economically than 14/14 (again based on that old TL thread), then why not go 11 overpool? Personally I always go 14 hatch and so have never done 11 overpool, but I think in theory it would be the second best build. Because 14/14 gives way faster lingspeed and banelings, which are needed in ZvZ. | ||
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jeeneeus
1168 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:53 Tobberoth wrote: Because 14/14 gives way faster lingspeed and banelings, which are needed in ZvZ. Depends on when you get your gas with the 11pool. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:55 jeeneeus wrote: Depends on when you get your gas with the 11pool. You have to postpone it if you want even close to the same economy as a 14/14, same as you have to build only drones after an 11pool, build lings and you're immediately behind later pools. | ||
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iNViCiOUZ
Germany364 Posts
I play most times a very economic build (hatch first 1rax exp, 1gate exp) Win often times in defending the cheese/all-in i face as a random player... what isn't that bad: defending cheese is a good way in getting a better player. I don't think there is a single build to go against random. It is the same against every other player. sometimes you face cheese sometimes it is a high eco build sometimes just a save one. So go for what you like the most and react as you would against other players. Its not that a 4gate from a random player is any other from a player you know the race from the beginning. | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
My perspective: Hatch first as Zerg (safe vs 99% of builds, just not 10-pool + 8 drones - canon rush/proxy whatever can still be held, if you're good enough), 12-gate at your choke as Protoss (puts you behind economically of course, PvR is toughest, IMO), same opening as always for Terran (however you usually open is fine, you can always scour him before having to make any matchup-related decisions, except "should I gas?" maybe, but you can do gas or no gas opening in all machups). I scout at 10ish supply usually (vs Random). Sometimes I also go Nexus 1st on big maps if I'm Protoss and feeling particularly ballsy. I wouldn't recommend this though because most random players cheese. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 18 2012 22:02 iNViCiOUZ wrote: Random Player here (Gold league, was plat before the switch). I play most times a very economic build (hatch first 1rax exp, 1gate exp) Win often times in defending the cheese/all-in i face as a random player... what isn't that bad: defending cheese is a good way in getting a better player. I don't think there is a single build to go against random. It is the same against every other player. sometimes you face cheese sometimes it is a high eco build sometimes just a save one. So go for what you like the most and react as you would against other players. Its not that a 4gate from a random player is any other from a player you know the race from the beginning. The difference is that openings which are good vs race X can be bad vs Race Y. For example, going hatch first is without a doubt the best opening vs terran, but can be suicide vs a toss. Vs toss, you want to go 14 pool 16 hatch, but that's hardly a good build vs a zerg. Vs a 4 gate, it doesn't matter, you can hatch first or 12 pool and still be in a perfectly fine position by the time the 4 gate hits, the problem is earlier cheeses such as proxies. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
I find it funny when you play as random and you play macro and win late-game and the other players starts raging about your race and how it takes 0 skill to play that race. xD | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 18 2012 22:04 althaz wrote: I play random (and I never cheese, unless I'm drunk), I like macro games. My perspective: Hatch first as Zerg (safe vs 99% of builds, just not 10-pool + 8 drones - canon rush/proxy whatever can still be held, if you're good enough), 12-gate at your choke as Protoss (puts you behind economically of course, PvR is toughest, IMO), same opening as always for Terran (however you usually open is fine, you can always scour him before having to make any matchup-related decisions, except "should I gas?" maybe, but you can do gas or no gas opening in all machups). I scout at 10ish supply usually (vs Random). Sometimes I also go Nexus 1st on big maps if I'm Protoss and feeling particularly ballsy. I wouldn't recommend this though because most random players cheese. According to Snute, high GM EU, hatch first in ZvZ is a build order loss to 10 pool or earlier pool, drones or not. He actively uses it a lot because he finds it so ridiculous that zergs actually attempt to hatch first in ZvZ. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
I personally would advise always building your pylon next to your nexus. It's way harder to deal with P's double proxy gate and cannon rush with your first pylon at your ramp than it is to defend Z's early pools with your pylon next to your nexus (it's even arguably easier to defend early pools with a simcity in your main). The only dangerous timing against Z is a speedling (or roach?) all in maybe, but it's less common. Random players usually aren't very fancy or skilled and just want to cheese their way through the ladder, they will just use your everyday cheeses. And to the few randoms who play the 3 races "to have fun" or "because it's more interesting", you're definitely the minority here. Random is used mainly to abuse the shit out of your opponent early game. If you want to play the 3 races, just pick the 3 alternatively or announce your race to your opponent at the start of the game. If you're not willing to do that, it's just that you want to abuse some random gimmicks, nothing else. You will have understood that I hate playing random 1v1, but it's even worse in 2v2. Having one random in your team and abuse the shit out of your opponents is a common strat (top #50 2v2 EU). For example, it forces a PT team to wall (unless you're willing to gamble), and then you can go for a siege push or even a proxy marauder with overlord vision at their ramp to kill their buildings. | ||
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naggerNZ
New Zealand708 Posts
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Chubz
France119 Posts
And to the few randoms who play the 3 races "to have fun" or "because it's more interesting", you're definitely the minority here. Random is used mainly to abuse the shit out of your opponent early game. If you want to play the 3 races, just pick the 3 alternatively or announce your race to your opponent at the start of the game. If you're not willing to do that, it's just that you want to abuse some random gimmicks, nothing else. this | ||
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Sareth
Germany1008 Posts
Very easy: "hi gl hf :D Mind telling me your race?" If you are polite and don't give them shit because they play random, then like 80% will tell you the race. And for the rest, who dont respond i always go for a safe opening, because then there is a high chance of cheese. Until now i have never encounterd a random player who lied about his race. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
With that being said, you should open a safe/standard opening for every match-up unless you scout him early enough to change it. PvR: 1 gate expo TvR: 1 rax expo... you can get gas and go banshees vs. T/P and reactor hellion vs. Z depending on what you scout, but 1rax expo is usually safer/better. ZvR: 14/14 | ||
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote: Hi everyone. I personally dislike when i'm against a random player. Because i just can't do an usual opening. In addition, many random players just cheese/all-in (i don't know why). I encounter very few random players on the ladder, but they all all-in. So when i'm facing a random player, i just go 7RR or 6pool. And i feel like "what a useless game ...". Yesterday, i did a 7RR and the random player was 6 pooling. 6 pool VS 7RR, what a game ^^ How do you play against random players on the ladder ? 14 gas 14 pool, play safe and scout at 10. Easy. Remember that they are random and until you confirm what they are doing just play safe and scout early. You'll get the hang of it. | ||
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PoisedYeTi
Australia167 Posts
IE. If i were to pick random then find match. During the loading screen is where i find out what my race is as well as my opponent knows too. So my opponent would see my race in the loading screen and be unaware that i actually rolled random. | ||
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Selendis
Australia509 Posts
On January 18 2012 20:44 ThatGuy89 wrote: as a toss player i hate vs random. You HAVE to build the pylong near your main ramp incase its zerg. If its not, theres no massive problem, but you've lost slight mining time (normally pylon would be right next to nexus) and some buildings might be easier to pick off. Yeah I actually don't have a standard opening vs random, I feel that it just any opening I use is super fragile against one of the races. Blocking your ramp gets you killed vs 1-1-1 faster than a siege tank blast, building a simcity is great against t and p but good luck trying to take your expo with a million slings running around the map, etc etc. So I proxygate, cross my fingers and hope for the best. But yeah I hate randoms, and this is coming from someone who used to play as random until just a few months ago. | ||
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enykie
Germany64 Posts
ontopic: I hate playing vs them, normally i do 14/14 and it sucks vs hellion expand :D | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
Harsh but I totally agree with this. No idea why Random is even an option. Or it should at least announce the race in the loading screen so none of this nonsense happens. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
first let me state the following: a well executed 11pool/18hatch gives an economy that is only slightly weaker than 15hatch 14pool, this is why it even works. the following can happen: you play vs P (30%) do 11pool/18hatch and continue as normal you play vs T (30%) do 11pool/18hatch and continue as normal you play vs Z(30%) do whatever you do vs Z you play vs random (10%) do 11pool/18hatch and see below you play vs random which rolled P play as normal you play vs random which rolled T play as normal you play vs random which rolled Z you have a disadvantage if he went for a very early expand, you have the advantage if he tried to put on early pressure. all in all, its a way to minimize the amount of different openings you need to remember | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
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Firetoss
Germany30 Posts
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Mario1209
United States1077 Posts
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lhr0909
United States562 Posts
Personally I enjoy playing vs random players just because I know the fact that most random players around my level or below (you only will see a lot of randoms up till diamond. Not nearly as many anymore once you get up to diamond) knows the game very well (thats why they play random) but they just don't have nearly as much practice with every single race. So I feel comfortable playing vs them because I know my mechanics will be way more solid than them. But I do scout early vs random, because I need to make a decision about which opening I am going with. Scout at 9-10 supply, and pay extra attention to the minimap. Once you see your opponent's worker, go check immediately and see what kind it is. But keep droning to about 15. if it is a Terran, they usually scout after depot or barracks (mostly after barracks), so you should have enough time to find him and check his base and respond with 15 hatch (if you can 15 hatch, always 15 hatch vs T) If it is a Protoss, usually you will see the probe in your base before 15 supply. In that case go 14-15 pool into 16 hatch (if you favor fast ling speed, get extractor at 15 after pool and only mine 100 gas), be extra careful when you decide to open 15 hatch vs P because as random players, they will surely do whatever it takes to get rid of your early lead, including sacrificing their own economy and throw down as many cannons as they want and not caring about wasting money at all. In that case it is very tough on your own. So I will never let that happen and instead go for a pool first opening (a lot of pros do that) If it is a Zerg, in a lot of maps you will see their overlord before you even start to scout (close air spawn in shattered temple/metalopolis), in that case just go for a normal build. If you find him with drone scout, see his pool timing and react to his. Usually vs 14/14 I will either go gas pool with 1 more drone or go for a pool gas opening (Sheth sometimes opens up with 16 pool 16 gas 16 hatch vs Z) and go for very safe defensive baneling opening (get baneling nest before speed and get 2 queens and 1 spine up really fast) 11 pool 18 hatch is good opening too, but you will be in a slight disadvantage vs T in dealing with fast hellions or 2 rax, and be in a huge disadvantage vs Z, because your tech is late (no gas) and you need to make up for it with extra spine and queen. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
I don't feel that necessarily random = lower skill. It is true that in almost all situations, depth of knowledge/experience kills breadth of knowledge/experience, but it still relates very much to your own state of mind and comfort within that game. Random players trade-off a slight bit of depth in order to gain a psychological edge on their opponent. The easiest way to play against random is to not care about them being random - simply be comfortable with random and scout them when you need to in order to determine your game plan. If you're running an opening that is structurally identical in all 3 race matchups and it will not change period until 20 supply, then don't feel the need to hyper-aggressive scout or prepare for cheese any more than in other matchups. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 19 2012 00:26 Jazzman88 wrote: In my experience, random is no different than any other matchup. I generally FE no matter what (unless it's a very specific map type like XNC), and I am comfortable with that opening against every race. I have 2 openings in general for each race, and one is the relative same initial stub across all 3 matchups; with that kind of comfort, I can take a slightly earlier scout than I normally do just to make sure there isn't an unexpected all-in coming. This is not because I expect more cheese, but because you respond differently to different races' cheese (i.e. a 4-rax Marine/SCV all-in is handled very differently by Terrans from a 6-pool, or a 4-gate). I don't feel that necessarily random = lower skill. It is true that in almost all situations, depth of knowledge/experience kills breadth of knowledge/experience, but it still relates very much to your own state of mind and comfort within that game. Random players trade-off a slight bit of depth in order to gain a psychological edge on their opponent. The easiest way to play against random is to not care about them being random - simply be comfortable with random and scout them when you need to in order to determine your game plan. If you're running an opening that is structurally identical in all 3 race matchups and it will not change period until 20 supply, then don't feel the need to hyper-aggressive scout or prepare for cheese any more than in other matchups. How can you be comfortable with FE in every matchup when no protoss worth their salt will let you plant a hatch? | ||
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MrChupee
Australia161 Posts
Then I plant 6 barracks out of their vision. But more serious advice? Just scout after first supply is built or something, just to make sure they are not the cheese-machine-2000 brand of random player. | ||
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Magus.421
France159 Posts
Ok but battle.net wants even matches. So when i encounter a player, this player got a 50% win ratio against other players of my level. So i got a 50% win ratio and the random player got a 50% win ratio too. So maybe i'm better than a random player in a macro game, but it don't make my win ratio higher. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 19 2012 00:35 Magus.421 wrote: I just don't understand the argument "you are just better than a random player because you play only one race". Ok but battle.net wants even matches. So when i encounter a player, this player got a 50% win ratio against other players of my level. So i got a 50% win ratio and the random player got a 50% win ratio too. So maybe i'm better than a random player in a macro game, but it don't make my win ratio higher. If you see it like that, why even play the game. Your win ratio is 50%, flip a coin instead of playing ladder. Obviously, your win ratio depends on your skill. Your chance of winning a game isn't 50% just because battle.nets MMR system works to move players towards a 50% ratio. A random player has generally not played even close to as many long games with the race as you have with yours, so your chance of winning should be way above 50%, especially if it's one of the cheesy randoms who use the random card to have a higher chance succeeding with cheese. | ||
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Maggost
Venezuela296 Posts
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
If Zerg: Reactor Hellion expand If Toss: Zatic pressure (depending on the map I'll just abort gas and immediately CC) If Terran: 111 siege (I swear almost all Random Terran do 111 Cloak) Honestly you should have openers that work against all three races. I also don't encounter very many cheesy Randoms. Probably because at mid Masters is around when cheese stops working really well. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 19 2012 00:41 Maggost wrote: Guys, how can i exactly know my % win ratio in my whole account history? You can't. You can use sc2gears to analyze your replays to find it, but that of course depends on you saving all your replays. | ||
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CryMore
United States497 Posts
On January 19 2012 00:41 Maggost wrote: Guys, how can i exactly know my % win ratio in my whole account history? Get SC2 gears and load up all your replays to it. It will give you all the stats you need, including by matchup and by map. edit: ninjadd so hard | ||
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Pamposek
Czech Republic56 Posts
On January 18 2012 23:02 ODKStevez wrote: 14 gas 14 pool, play safe and scout at 10. Easy. Remember that they are random and until you confirm what they are doing just play safe and scout early. You'll get the hang of it. This. As Z 14/14 is safe build, which will not set you economicaly back (if i remember right, some pro was doing 14/14 every matchup ;-) ) | ||
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Magus.421
France159 Posts
On January 19 2012 00:37 Tobberoth wrote: If you see it like that, why even play the game. Your win ratio is 50%, flip a coin instead of playing ladder. Obviously, your win ratio depends on your skill. Your chance of winning a game isn't 50% just because battle.nets MMR system works to move players towards a 50% ratio. A random player has generally not played even close to as many long games with the race as you have with yours, so your chance of winning should be way above 50%, especially if it's one of the cheesy randoms who use the random card to have a higher chance succeeding with cheese. Well, it's not really what i was saying. If a random player got the same MMR as me, it's because a got a 50% win ratio against players with the same "level" as me. And against this other players, i also got a 50% win ratio. It's not "flip a coin", it's just like that. I actually got a 50% win ratio on my last 30 games, like many players on battle.net do. So i can understand i got a better macro than a random player. But i can't understand why he should be badder than me :/ In fact, many of these players just cheese. So it's not like a "normal" game. I got a 50% win ratio against other player, but i don't know my "level" against cheeses ^^ | ||
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ishboh
United States954 Posts
On January 18 2012 18:56 Skiblet wrote: yeah, go 14pool 14 gas into speedling expand. expand on your 13th drone or your scv that just made your supply .for terran open 12 rax 13 gas etc. when playing vs random you want a standard build thats flexible this is exactly it. the 14/14 expo is the best all around build for zerg, you can get away with doing it in any match up. 14 hatch is a little risky but all around do-able in all 3 match ups as well (depending on map) | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
A lot of people are advising 14/14 and I would say that's horrible advice. 14/14 is probably the worst build against terran (that's macro oriented), so you end up with a pretty large disadvantage. You also need to drone scout if you don't find him quickly with an overlord because he could obviously be 1 base baneling'ing you and you need constant ling production to buy time (so he can't morph his right in front of your base). If he 15 hatches you're also pretty far behind as not only did you do a build that is a bit worse (though I argue 14/14 comes out fine versus 15 hatch if played correctly), you have to scout with a drone which is significant chunk of your economy at that time, so he's only farther ahead. If you're versus protoss or terran, anything beyond the initial 4 or so is a complete waste. You can 15 hatch (or 14 hatch), but you're running the risk of getting 10 pooled (which you shouldn't hold off if he controls correctly) from a zerg or cannon rushed by a protoss. I think zerg comes out of the vs random pool the worst (with terran coming out the best as you can pretty much 1 rax FE every MU if you scout). A lot of times I just leave the game when I spawn versus a random and I see they're not protoss because it's just not good practice for me and ladder points mean very little as I'm not a professional player vying for a spot at blizzcon. But as I said, I believe you're in the realm of being safest (and best) versus the greatest amount of things if you open 14 pool gasless expand. I would love it if Blizz changed the feature for random to just spawning them as a race (so you can see it in the loading screen). Almost every game I've played that had a faction/race feature does this, and I just don't think playing against a random player is fun (because you're pretty likely to end up at a disadvantage one way or the other just because he chose random). | ||
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Animostas
United States568 Posts
Use a random player's lack of experience against him somehow. | ||
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justalex
United States122 Posts
On January 19 2012 01:16 Animostas wrote: Because a random player plays each race 1/3 as much as a typical person would, I recommend that you try to push the game towards late game as much as possible, because the possibility that he's encountered the scenarios that you're more familiar with are very unlikely. Use a random player's lack of experience against him somehow. As a random player, this is only partially true. I feel I have holes in my game, but ti's not always the late game. For example, I feel fairly comfortable in PvZ until the middish game where we're both at 100-120 supply and the first wave of upgrades have kicked in (blink, 1/1, roach speed, etc). If things get beyond that and I'm on 3 bases adding a healthy colossus count, i feel comfortable again. I feel comfortable TvT until the late game, where I have some difficulty judging when to transition into BC, but feel comfortable again once we hit the ultra late game and the game's down to chaos, nukes, and yamato cannons everywhere. As long as your random opponent is going for some early all-in, I think you just play it like normal. The only adjustments you should make are to your early game | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
Protoss: on non-forge FE maps just open with 9scout and gate at your ramp if you don't know his race yet, and you'll know race by the time you're making any other decisions (which is like 18 supply). On forge FE maps it sucks but yeah do the same thing, you don't really have a choice. Terran: Wall + factory on smaller maps, wall + gasless FE on bigger maps. It's a pain but definitely manageable. | ||
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Wroshe
Netherlands1051 Posts
My win rate against randoms is decent enough but more importantly: the game doesn't take too long so I have another person next that actually picks a race. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 19 2012 02:33 Wroshe wrote: As 99% Random players only play Random because it gives them a minor advantage when doing their shitty 1base all-in I'll also do one. Depending on the map it will be either 9/9 Proxy Gates (if a 2player map or XelNaga/Metalopolis) or else a 20probe 4gate. My win rate against randoms is decent enough but more importantly: the game doesn't take too long so I have another person next that actually picks a race. I think most players who plays random do it because they wanna play all races, at least thats what I think. You have fun with your 1/3 of the game, while I enjoy every bit of it. | ||
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Fairchild
133 Posts
The longer the game drags on the more ahead I find myself; as with any player the late game is the least explored game so playing against a random player in the late game is going to be majorly in my favor. He's played the scenario 1/3 the amount I have at least. | ||
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haffy
United Kingdom430 Posts
Protoss can make a gateway and pylon next to their main and wall off with cyber/gate if they see it's Zerg. I don't think Terran has much problems, not sure though. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 02:38 kyllinghest wrote: I think most players who plays random do it because they wanna play all races, at least thats what I think. You have fun with your 1/3 of the game, while I enjoy every bit of it. One could argue that you don't enjoy each race to its fullest. However I agree that you enjoy every BitbyBit of it. | ||
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Nubbinz
United States57 Posts
I play random - I cheese / all-in maybe 10-15% of my games. Honestly it's good practice and I catch a lot of FE Protoss or Hatch first players that are being so greedy (without scouting) they deserve it. The only times I may all in is in a ZvZ and TvP. All other match ups are usually longer macro games. My favorite part about being random is beating others in long macro games with all different races. Imagine how good some of us random players would be if we could concentrate on one race, one set of timings, or 3 different match ups instead of 9. Stop the hate! | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 19 2012 03:23 ZenithM wrote: One could argue that you don't enjoy each race to its fullest. However I agree that you enjoy every BitbyBit of it. Not everyone who plays random cheeses. I guess I could have been "deeper" in one race if I choose, but Im never gonna be higher than masters anyways, and Im satisfied toying around with every aspect of this lovely game when I have the time to play. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 03:32 Nubbinz wrote: So much generalization here against random players. I play random - I cheese / all-in maybe 10-15% of my games. Honestly it's good practice and I catch a lot of FE Protoss or Hatch first players that are being so greedy (without scouting) they deserve it. The only times I may all in is in a ZvZ and TvP. All other match ups are usually longer macro games. My favorite part about being random is beating others in long macro games with all different races. Imagine how good some of us random players would be if we could concentrate on one race, one set of timings, or 3 different match ups instead of 9. Stop the hate! "Playing long macro games" is also an illusion for random players. You get away with way more risks and greed just because you're random, and you don't even know it. When I play vs random and I don't get cheesed right off the bat (which is rare ;D), I'll use my safest openings and don't take any risk at all, letting you do basically everything you want (Example: I'll 2 gate robo expand versus T, which is very weak economically, so I won't be to all in you with the momentum of a 1 gate expand and I'll always be trying to play catchup in the longer game) Moreover, go ahead, just concentrate on one race and be the target of all the cheese this race suffers. Example: you'll never get cannon rushed in PvP, and it sure is a pain in the ass to deal with on certain maps. I may exagerate a bit, but it's definitely a downside of playing random if you want to improve all your races. People will have extreme behaviors against you. Either they'll play overly safe, fearing the cheesy side hidden in all random players (:D), or they'll all in you in frustration of having to play random. You won't have "standard" games as straight up players have. I think Day9 noticed that (in a tweet), so he just had to play each race alternatively, but straight up, not queuing with random. Not everyone who plays random cheeses. I guess I could have been "deeper" in one race if I choose, but Im never gonna be higher than masters anyways, and Im satisfied toying around with every aspect of this lovely game when I have the time to play. Why not roll a dice and decide your race like that if you don't want to cheese? Achievements (lol)? | ||
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justalex
United States122 Posts
On January 19 2012 02:58 SKTerran.117 wrote: I just leave the game since I don't care about ladder anyway. Random shouldn't be an option in competitive matches imo. Judging from TL and Reddit, neither should terran | ||
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Everhate
United States640 Posts
That sounds rather general, somewhat intentionally, since you can have so many potential matchups. It's been mentioned, for example, that 14/14 as a zerg isn't hugely different than hatch first or some other openings in any matchup. Same holds true for gate first or either gasless rax or early factory for P and T respectively. Now, of course, they're not optimal for each of the 3 matchups you could potentially draw, but the worst case scenario (say, 14/14 zerg against a random terran), doesn't disadvantage you to such a great extent that you can't make up for it pretty quickly. Sure, it would be ideal to open with the perfect opening for the matchup, but it's not likely to be the determining factor in the match. As an arbitrary example, in PvZ most pro protoss players feel that FFE is the proper opening on most maps. That doesn't mean that opening gateway first is an auto-loss, even against a pro level zerg. I tend to trust my lategame against people who have a chosen race, so I suppose that is an influencing factor as well. Someone who plays random encounters so many different matchups, and the average game length itself (whether they play cheesy or standard), should be about the same as any other player who plays a similar way, so their comfort level with the lategame should be about the same. However, the lack of experience of most players with the lategame, even in their 3 matchups, gives me confidence against someone that has a relatively similar level of experience in 9 matchups. You could, of course, argue that they could have a greater understand of the game in general, since they experience whatever matchup you draw from both sides...I'm running myself in loops, but it's fun for me :p | ||
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eighteen8
105 Posts
On January 19 2012 03:38 kyllinghest wrote: Not everyone who plays random cheeses. I guess I could have been "deeper" in one race if I choose, but Im never gonna be higher than masters anyways, and Im satisfied toying around with every aspect of this lovely game when I have the time to play. this | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
The people that leave are a reason to play random again, so funny. But i generally dice my race, since playing random is annoying because people generally respond wrongly and what to do then, don't abuse on this mistake, or let it slide, either way the game will be boring. But zerg really shouldn't have problems against random, as their strongest defense is simply to plant down a hatch at a nice to defend position. If you have alot of random cheesers around your skill region, just plant the hatch at the strongest position possible, which is close but not the natural expo itself. From there its super easy to defend and a catjump to take the natural savely. The other 2 races though should not wallin ... you can hold 6 pools without a wallin, just train that and you will have no problem against random and basically better for the eco anyway. Since if you wallin you will have a 66% chance of loosing the wallin for nothing. (atleast never put a cybercore as a wallin building against random if you haven't found them so far D: ) | ||
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zEnVy
United States446 Posts
Except on XNC, that's just suicide. | ||
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.Enigma
United Kingdom116 Posts
On January 19 2012 02:58 SKTerran.117 wrote: I just leave the game since I don't care about ladder anyway. Random shouldn't be an option in competitive matches imo. This is worded pretty bluntly but I agree with the last sentence. As someone else mentioned, playing random is not the right way to improve with each race anyway. A randomer rolling Zerg will never have to deal with a FFE in ZvP for instance, despite it being the staple build of the matchup. A game of RvX is skewed completely differently depending on the race being faced, the map and the order the opponent scouts multispawn maps. Its not surprising some people feel annoyed about playing randoms and feel inclined to either all in or play extremely safe, assuming the opponent has a limited gameplan compared to them. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
The only time the random advantage is going to severely punish you with a cheese or all in is if you refuse to scout or if you open with a greedy opening. (15 hatch is greedy, but zergs can get away with it against Terrans but not against Protoss or Zergs.) If you play safe you won't be punished by the random advantage. | ||
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where_
Australia53 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 19 2012 03:47 ZenithM wrote: "Playing long macro games" is also an illusion for random players. You get away with way more risks and greed just because you're random, and you don't even know it. When I play vs random and I don't get cheesed right off the bat (which is rare ;D), I'll use my safest openings and don't take any risk at all, letting you do basically everything you want (Example: I'll 2 gate robo expand versus T, which is very weak economically, so I won't be to all in you with the momentum of a 1 gate expand and I'll always be trying to play catchup in the longer game) Moreover, go ahead, just concentrate on one race and be the target of all the cheese this race suffers. Example: you'll never get cannon rushed in PvP, and it sure is a pain in the ass to deal with on certain maps. I may exagerate a bit, but it's definitely a downside of playing random if you want to improve all your races. People will have extreme behaviors against you. Either they'll play overly safe, fearing the cheesy side hidden in all random players (:D), or they'll all in you in frustration of having to play random. You won't have "standard" games as straight up players have. I think Day9 noticed that (in a tweet), so he just had to play each race alternatively, but straight up, not queuing with random. Why not roll a dice and decide your race like that if you don't want to cheese? Achievements (lol)? False, you are overgeneralizing and I do not appreciate it. I play Random because A: I like every race's playstyle. B: I like the fact that my opponents will not open greedy or with a match up specific cheese like Proxy gates or proxy 2 rax, and C: because I find that I get more enjoyment out of the game by playing Random. I rarely rush, and I play a macro style with Random. My ladder games last an average of over 20 minutes in every match up except for PvP and ZvZ. I utilize the random advantage in order to open with an econ build every game and not have to worry about my opponent going for a super greedy build that I then have to harass or all in against. That's how I play random and I know several other random players that play it the same way. Do not lump us all together with the ones that use the Random advantage to all in with. We do not like it. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 19 2012 03:47 ZenithM wrote: Why not roll a dice and decide your race like that if you don't want to cheese? Achievements (lol)? Because all I wanna do is play some games of Starcraft 2, Im no serious gamer, a function which lets me "random" ingame is more than satisfying for me. Also I brought up the whole cheese thing because so many people just labeled random players cheesers, while my impression as a random is the complete opposite. And no, I don't care one bit for achievements. | ||
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Archybaldie
United Kingdom818 Posts
I figured since i dont 4 gate in any of my other matchups and every protoss should know a 4 gate it'd be useful practice lol. Just lost to a random that went 7 pool and massed lings ... i miss clicked and didnt get my wall off when i saw all the lings | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 19 2012 04:32 .Enigma wrote: This is worded pretty bluntly but I agree with the last sentence. As someone else mentioned, playing random is not the right way to improve with each race anyway. A randomer rolling Zerg will never have to deal with a FFE in ZvP for instance, despite it being the staple build of the matchup. A game of RvX is skewed completely differently depending on the race being faced, the map and the order the opponent scouts multispawn maps. Its not surprising some people feel annoyed about playing randoms and feel inclined to either all in or play extremely safe, assuming the opponent has a limited gameplan compared to them. Do you have any experience actually playing Random or are you just assuming? I face FFE's and hatch firsts all the time when I play Random because there are actually quite a few players on the ladder that will open against Randoms exactly how they would normally or because they sent an earlier scout which is another option. Just yesterday I played a ZvZ in which I did a 13 hatch/pool against a guy that did a 15 hatch and the game progressed immediately into the midgame with only minor Zergling scuffles. He did it blindly btw, and if I had been the kind of random player that cheesed every game I would have had an instant win instead he beat me straight up in a macro game after he did a risky double expand behind muta harass that I didn't punish enough. More often my games play out exactly like standard match ups than not. Your statements are based on either extremely limited experience or bias. Neither of which have any application to my own ladder experience. Do not assume things about playing Random or Random players if you do not want to be criticized for it. | ||
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TheWalls
United States15 Posts
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Chubz
France119 Posts
As 99% Random players only play Random because it gives them a minor advantage when doing their shitty 1base all-in I'll also do one. Depending on the map it will be either 9/9 Proxy Gates (if a 2player map or XelNaga/Metalopolis) or else a 20probe 4gate. love u | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
How can you be comfortable with FE in every matchup when no protoss worth their salt will let you plant a hatch? Sorry, I should have specified that I am a Terran player. 1-rax FE is generally safe unless you fail to scout the 4-gate properly or the Protoss runs blind for Voidray all-in. I haven't yet seen a random player Voidray all-in me, though: IF they all-in (which doesn't happen that often) it tends to be 4-gate for Protoss or 6-gate Blink. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 04:58 Vindicare605 wrote: Do you have any experience actually playing Random or are you just assuming? I face FFE's and hatch firsts all the time when I play Random because there are actually quite a few players on the ladder that will open against Randoms exactly how they would normally or because they sent an earlier scout which is another option. Just yesterday I played a ZvZ in which I did a 13 hatch/pool against a guy that did a 15 hatch and the game progressed immediately into the midgame with only minor Zergling scuffles. He did it blindly btw, and if I had been the kind of random player that cheesed every game I would have had an instant win instead he beat me straight up in a macro game after he did a risky double expand behind muta harass that I didn't punish enough. More often my games play out exactly like standard match ups than not. Your statements are based on either extremely limited experience or bias. Neither of which have any application to my own ladder experience. Do not assume things about playing Random or Random players if you do not want to be criticized for it. This post makes me think that you're not facing opponents of a very high caliber (it's no wonder, playing random must be quite hard past a certain point). It's litterally impossible to "open FFE" like you would normally against Z, because opening FFE (even just placing his pylon at the choke to prepare for the forge) is suicidal vs P. I mean, wtf, if I'm random P and I see the guy planting his pylon in low ground or far away from his nexus on Tal Darim, there is so much I can do to abuse it it's not even funny. A 4 gate will likely be an insta win, and a free expand will do as well if he puts up cannons. I don't know how ZvR works, but PvR is a real mess, because all 3 protoss matchups require a different opening, that are decided very early on, sometimes with the first pylon placement. In PvT, it's very macro early expand oriented, PvZ, you can't do that at all and it's more forge expand and 1 base "I take my natural when I have enough sentries to protect it", and in PvP, it's very 1 base oriented and sentries are useless to protect an expand. PvR is not TvR, where I assume you can wall off and go 1 rax FE every single game without much difficulty. Considering all this, FFE against random is just absurd. So we agree then, "Random" is to have fun and dick around, not to play "competitive" like the first guy was right to mention. False, you are overgeneralizing and I do not appreciate it. I play Random because A: I like every race's playstyle. B: I like the fact that my opponents will not open greedy or with a match up specific cheese like Proxy gates or proxy 2 rax, and C: because I find that I get more enjoyment out of the game by playing Random. I rarely rush, and I play a macro style with Random. My ladder games last an average of over 20 minutes in every match up except for PvP and ZvZ. I utilize the random advantage in order to open with an econ build every game and not have to worry about my opponent going for a super greedy build that I then have to harass or all in against. That's how I play random and I know several other random players that play it the same way. Do not lump us all together with the ones that use the Random advantage to all in with. We do not like it. Sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention, although I generally don't like playing against random players (like all players that don't play random, and that's a lot, I hope). What you misunderstood however is that I don't have any more respect for macro cheesers than for rushing cheesers. I agree that it must be very pleasant to play every single game against an opponent scared shitless of "what the hell this clown is going to throw at him" (It's exactly my thoughts when I play versus random :D, don't take it personally, I just imagine some guy clothed like a clown with multiple colors, trying to throw at you magic tricks and unfunny jokes :D) and playing overly safe and giving you away free advantages. You use the random advantage, fine, but I think quite a few people consider it an unfair advantage, or at least "lame". You advocate playing random in a way that somehow abuses the fact that your opponent doesn't know your race, while you most likely know his. That's exactly what I don't like with Random players. I don't care if they all in with it or double command center first or whatever, they play in a gimmicky way. On the other hand, of course I have the utmost respect for players who want to master the 3 races, be those players that dedicate alternatively X ladder games to each race, who tell at the start of the game their race to their opponent, or even who just play random the normal way but don't overabuse it as a free bonus. I'm convinced there are plenty of people like that, don't worry, but there are just 10 times more people who cheese with Random and 5 times more who believe they play standard ZvP, while their opponent is actually playing PvR, not PvZ. Edit: I played a macro random (being able to go expo first as all races bcus they wont cheese if they dont know the matchup). As I wrote above, this in itself is very cheesy. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25071 Posts
I also have only ran into randoms this season on Tal'Darim Altar, and as a Protoss player it is the most annoying experience I have ever had in Starcraft. Can't FFE in case he's not Zerg, if he's Zerg I'm 9/10 times behind based on a coinflip. Have to go a 12 gate because if I don't I auto-lose to an optimal 4 gate. Can't scout for cheese optimally until my probe enters his base and sees his race. Just a pain all-round really. Nothing against the concept of playing random, but I think in the loadin screen it should say something like Random (Protoss) or whatever they've rolled. Random players cannot master playing all three races if they are rolling random, because of the distortion the lack of knowledge about what race they have spawned as will cause to their opponent. This way the legitimate random players who want to learn all 3 races can do so, and indeed better than they could otherwise given they are playing against their opponent's optimal openings, and the cheesing scrubs no longer have their random crutch and have to learn to play the game properly. | ||
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eeizbee
Canada19 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 19 2012 05:48 ZenithM wrote: This post makes me think that you're not facing opponents of a very high caliber (it's no wonder, playing random must be quite hard past a certain point). It's litterally impossible to "open FFE" like you would normally against Z, because opening FFE (even just placing his pylon at the choke to prepare for the forge) is suicidal vs P. I mean, wtf, if I'm random P and I see the guy planting his pylon in low ground or far away from his nexus on Tal Darim, there is so much I can do to abuse it it's not even funny. A 4 gate will likely be an insta win, and a free expand will do as well if he puts up cannons. I don't know how ZvR works, but PvR is a real mess, because all 3 protoss matchups require a different opening, that are decided very early on, sometimes with the first pylon placement. In PvT, it's very macro early expand oriented, PvZ, you can't do that at all and it's more forge expand and 1 base "I take my natural when I have enough sentries to protect it", and in PvP, it's very 1 base oriented and sentries are useless to protect an expand. PvR is not TvR, where I assume you can wall off and go 1 rax FE every single game without much difficulty. Considering all this, FFE against random is just absurd. So we agree then, "Random" is to have fun and dick around, not to play "competitive" like the first guy was right to mention. Sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention, although I generally don't like playing against random players (like all players that don't play random, and that's a lot, I hope). What you misunderstood however is that I don't have any more respect for macro cheesers than for rushing cheesers. I agree that it must be very pleasant to play every single game against an opponent scared shitless of "what the hell this clown is going to throw at him" (It's exactly my thoughts when I play versus random :D, don't take it personally, I just imagine some guy clothed like a clown with multiple colors, trying to throw at you magic tricks and unfunny jokes :D) and playing overly safe and giving you away free advantages. You use the random advantage, fine, but I think quite a few people consider it an unfair advantage, or at least "lame". You advocate playing random in a way that somehow abuses the fact that your opponent doesn't know your race, while you most likely know his. That's exactly what I don't like with Random players. I don't care if they all in with it or double command center first or whatever, they play in a gimmicky way. On the other hand, of course I have the utmost respect for players who want to master the 3 races, be those players that dedicate alternatively X ladder games to each race, who tell at the start of the game their race to their opponent, or even who just play random the normal way but don't overabuse it as a free bonus. I'm convinced there are plenty of people like that, don't worry, but there are just 10 times more people who cheese with Random and 5 times more who believe they play standard ZvP, while their opponent is actually playing PvR, not PvZ. Edit: As I wrote above, this in itself is very cheesy. What you're essentially saying is that opponents have to play a very specific way for you to NOT consider them cheesy. Who's the bigger jerk in this scenario? The guy playing each race in an unorthodox way that doesn't involve all ins, or the guy who immediately criticizes anything that isn't 100% standard. you're also assuming that when I say i use the random advantage to play a macro game that I play ultra greedy every game. That isn't true either, I simply use it as a way of assuring myself that my opponent isn't going to do something cheesy or greedy also, (although often they will anyway. I just had a Zerg take a fast third as soon as he scouted i was Terran after going 15 hatch which i punished with typical 1 rax bunker pressure) I can't imagine that you have much respect for anyone on the ladder with the narrow perspective you use to play this game with. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:30 Vindicare605 wrote: What you're essentially saying is that opponents have to play a very specific way for you to NOT consider them cheesy. Who's the bigger jerk in this scenario? The guy playing each race in an unorthodox way that doesn't involve all ins, or the guy who immediately criticizes anything that isn't 100% standard. you're also assuming that when I say i use the random advantage to play a macro game that I play ultra greedy every game. That isn't true either, I simply use it as a way of assuring myself that my opponent isn't going to do something cheesy or greedy also, (although often they will anyway. I just had a Zerg take a fast third as soon as he scouted i was Terran after going 15 hatch which i punished with typical 1 rax bunker pressure) I can't imagine that you have much respect for anyone on the ladder with the narrow perspective you use to play this game with. Yeah, I understand I can come off as way too harsh in my posts when I speak of randoms, but in fact I'm a very respectful opponent ingame and I actually don't mind that much playing against random (it's just very uncomfortable as a P at the beginning when you know that your first pylon at 0:47 can be the first bad "decision" you make :D). As for the style of games I like, I don't like blind all ins like 6 pools or cannon rushes on ladder, which coincidentally enough random players GENERALLY like. I think they have their roles in BoX series, but they have nothing to do on ladder, as the most basic hope-based "I want to get free points" strategies. I don't appreciate greedy builds that much because I feel forced to punish it or let it slide to play the longer game and be behind anyway. But I understand that it's good to try them yourself to see if you can defend what your opponent chooses to punish you with. Overall I like safe, scouting based macro play, flashy micro or multitask-intensive builds and powerful reactionary all ins, stuff like that, it's not actually too hard to ask for... I just wanted you to kind of understand that there are legit concerns of us when we play against random and they can explain a bit the "hate towards randoms" (but not totally justify it). I'm not trying to bash you for wanting to play the 3 races peacefully, you can play as you wish after all. I simply use it as a way of assuring myself that my opponent isn't going to do something cheesy or greedy also Still, my main point stand, most random players use their "race" to bypass safety measures developped by other 1v1 players or restrict their opponent's build order at the start of the game. The best example would be a ZvP Taldarim where P cannot forge fast expand. How easy it must seem for the random Zerg... Forgive me if I cannot get myself to like it and find it fair... | ||
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NoisyNinja
United States991 Posts
And they say we're the cheesers (we being Random players). Just pick a stable opening, preferably pool first on the off chance the Random player you're facing is a skillless douche and cheeses you and also pool first prevents you from dying in a ZvZ. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:48 ZenithM wrote: Yeah, I understand I can come off as way too harsh in my posts when I speak of randoms, but in fact I'm a very respectful opponent ingame and I actually don't mind that much playing against random (it's just very uncomfortable as a P at the beginning when you know that your first pylon at 0:47 can be the first bad "decision" you make :D). As for the style of games I like, I don't like blind all ins like 6 pools or cannon rushes on ladder, which coincidentally enough random players GENERALLY like. I think they have their roles in BoX series, but they have nothing to do on ladder, as the most basic hope-based "I want to get free points" strategies. I don't appreciate greedy builds that much because I feel forced to punish it or let it slide to play the longer game and be behind anyway. But I understand that it's good to try them yourself to see if you can defend what your opponent chooses to punish you with. Overall I like safe, scouting based macro play, flashy micro or multitask-intensive builds and powerful reactionary all ins, stuff like that, it's not actually too hard to ask for... I just wanted you to kind of understand that there are legit concerns of us when we play against random and they can explain a bit the "hate towards randoms" (but not totally justify it). I'm not trying to bash you for wanting to play the 3 races peacefully, you can play as you wish after all. Still, my main point stand, most random players use their "race" to bypass safety measures developped by other 1v1 players or restrict their opponent's build order at the start of the game. The best example would be a ZvP Taldarim where P cannot forge fast expand. How easy it must seem for the random Zerg... Forgive me if I cannot get myself to like it and find it fair... I should mention that while I play random on the ladder I play all of my practice matches with a specific race so that I DO know what to do if I get cheesed early on with each race. I do not play random on the ladder for the advantage, I utilize it sure because it's almost impossible not to in some way but I do not play random for it. I play random because I like the challenge of learning every race A, the fun of playing every match up B, because i like every race's playstyle C, and because I think random has the coolest portraits D. Am i familiar with the fact that there are a lot of random players on the ladder that cheese yes, but do all of us? No. I don't like being lumped in with them it'd be the same as accusing every zerg of 6 pooling, every protoss as a cannon rusher and every Terran as a cheesy Terran player (they have a lot to choose from.) It's not fair to make those kind of blanket generalizations. | ||
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snively
United States1159 Posts
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
I espeacilly got stoned by the argument that youre only imagining your opponent is playing pvz when he in reality is playing PvR. From now on i will stop playing random and rather pick 1 race at random each game beforehand. Thank you for enlightening me | ||
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eeizbee
Canada19 Posts
Still, my main point stand, most random players use their "race" to bypass safety measures developped by other 1v1 players or restrict their opponent's build order at the start of the game. how does he not understand the connection between "i play random" and "every protoss i play is such a dumbass they don't even wall off when i get zerg" random is pretty bullshit, we all know the ladder maps aren't balanced that is why they don't use them in tournaments, same goes for random. ladder is a 2nd rate gaming experience if we can all agree on that there is nothing to argue about here. starcraft is the only game i'v played in 10 years that people who think they are good worry about the gay matchmaking games. you guys remind me of people in halo who thought they were pro because they had a level 40 in Team Slayer lol (they were garbage). | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:04 Teoman wrote: Ive read this entire thread now, and i have been quite enlightened. I espeacilly got stoned by the argument that youre only imagining your opponent is playing pvz when he in reality is playing PvR. From now on i will stop playing random and rather pick 1 race at random each game beforehand. Thank you for enlightening me Haha, don't stop playing random man, they do have cool portraits and they can get the other races' portraits at the same time. Don't worry about clichés some of us may associate to random players. If I could play Zerg well enough, I'd actually like to get 25 wins of random to have the Sentry portrait, but heh, my Zerg sucks lol. Shall I 6 pool my way to this portrait? + Show Spoiler + j/k ;D | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 19 2012 06:10 eeizbee wrote: if you aren't protoss you don't really have a right to bitch about vs random. literally the first pylon we put down will make or break a matchup for us PRE SCOUT. terran and zerg can open standard and early scout to be safe, but the toss has to drop that first pylon knowing what he's up against. basically to be safe in PVR you drop a pylon right next to your base, it's the best odds because if your opponent is P or T you just opened standard, if your opponent is zerg you might as well gg. I've held several 6/7pools with a gateway next to my base. I'm not sure if they played it wrong or whatever though. Anyway, I random a lot and I never blind cheese. (7pool, proxy gate/rax) The best way to play vs random is to open a standard build that's decent vs all 3 races. Protoss and Terran should open relatively the same and Zerg can 14/14 I guess. 15 hatch would be nice too but I think that autoloses to a lot of stuff. Anyway, why would you worry about it? Chances are if they random full time, they're 3x less experienced with the matchup than you. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25071 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:02 Vindicare605 wrote: I should mention that while I play random on the ladder I play all of my practice matches with a specific race so that I DO know what to do if I get cheesed early on with each race. I do not play random on the ladder for the advantage, I utilize it sure because it's almost impossible not to in some way but I do not play random for it. I play random because I like the challenge of learning every race A, the fun of playing every match up B, because i like every race's playstyle C, and because I think random has the coolest portraits D. Am i familiar with the fact that there are a lot of random players on the ladder that cheese yes, but do all of us? No. I don't like being lumped in with them it'd be the same as accusing every zerg of 6 pooling, every protoss as a cannon rusher and every Terran as a cheesy Terran player (they have a lot to choose from.) It's not fair to make those kind of blanket generalizations. I posted earlier, but would you as a random player object to your race being revealed i.e in the loading screen if you rolled Protoss it would have your Bnet name, Random (Protoss)? If you genuinely want to play all 3 races in a standard way, you should surely not want the distortion that comes with the vRandom mindset that has to be adopted by your opponent? | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:12 ZenithM wrote: If I could play Zerg well enough, I'd actually like to get 25 wins of random to have the Sentry portrait, but heh, my Zerg sucks lol. Shall I 6 pool my way to this portrait? + Show Spoiler + j/k ;D Go for the forcefielder mate! You'd be surprised by how fantastic it is to blow stuff up with loads of banelings;) | ||
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eeizbee
Canada19 Posts
I've held several 6/7pools with a gateway next to my base. I'm not sure if they played it wrong or whatever though. Anyway, I random a lot and I never blind cheese. (7pool, proxy gate/rax) The best way to play vs random is to open a standard build that's decent vs all 3 races. Protoss and Terran should open relatively the same and Zerg can 14/14 I guess. 15 hatch would be nice too but I think that autoloses to a lot of stuff. Anyway, why would you worry about it? Chances are if they random full time, they're 3x less experienced with the matchup than you. i'm not worried about it i don't really care about ladder. a 6 pool is yes very easily held even with a 1 gate opener, but what do you do when 40 speedling's run in and you opened gate with a pylon beside your base?. the consensus is (i think) that if you don't wall off or do a gap wall off with a zealot block there is no way you are going to hold the zerg's first push, even if they didn't start the match thinking "i'm going to push this guy early" they would be stupid not to when they see they can wander right up your ramp and in your base. | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:12 ZenithM wrote: Haha, don't stop playing random man, they do have cool portraits and they can get the other races' portraits at the same time. Don't worry about clichés some of us may associate to random players. If I could play Zerg well enough, I'd actually like to get 25 wins of random to have the Sentry portrait, but heh, my Zerg sucks lol. Shall I 6 pool my way to this portrait? + Show Spoiler + j/k ;D Hey, Hey!! while i played random not to cheese for portraits, but because i love all races (refer to my picture on first page :D) I was also very hungry for that high templar portrait But if i am to succed in code S i must have ladder training with insecure persons, then i must at least ease some of their fears of the dreadful fog of war And anyways, Now that i look at it, the probe portrait is really, really cute aswell. | ||
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goal 888
167 Posts
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
if you don't have enough variety in your game to be able to play versus random (e.g. a protoss player who only knows how to play ffe in PvZ) then that is your own fault, not the random players. | ||
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-Switch-
Canada506 Posts
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-Switch-
Canada506 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:42 ThePianoDentist wrote: i find it amusing the players who think they lost when they played against a random because of the gigantic economic setback of having to make their gateway at their ramp rather than next to nexus :| if you don't have enough variety in your game to be able to play versus random (e.g. a protoss player who only knows how to play ffe in PvZ) then that is your own fault, not the random players. Its not a question of being able to only do ffe. if you put your gate at your nexus you have a huge disadvantage against zerg and straight die to a lot of speedling openers. Which forces your to make your initial gateway at your ramp which then puts you at a disadvantage against terran and protoss. Its simply a lose lose situation that you can't get out of. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:28 eeizbee wrote: i'm not worried about it i don't really care about ladder. a 6 pool is yes very easily held even with a 1 gate opener, but what do you do when 40 speedling's run in and you opened gate with a pylon beside your base?. the consensus is (i think) that if you don't wall off or do a gap wall off with a zealot block there is no way you are going to hold the zerg's first push, even if they didn't start the match thinking "i'm going to push this guy early" they would be stupid not to when they see they can wander right up your ramp and in your base. If you 9 scout, which you should since the opponent is random, you'll scout them before you even make your cyber core. You have enough time to wall off your ramp with a pylon and your 2nd and 3rd gateways. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:42 ThePianoDentist wrote: i find it amusing the players who think they lost when they played against a random because of the gigantic economic setback of having to make their gateway at their ramp rather than next to nexus :| if you don't have enough variety in your game to be able to play versus random (e.g. a protoss player who only knows how to play ffe in PvZ) then that is your own fault, not the random players. Lol, nobody here is talking seriously about the economic damage you take from building your shit at the ramp... It's mostly that many cheeses and timing attacks are much harder to defend for the following main reasons: _ Your first vital pylon is far away from your nexus (proxy gates, cannon rushes become much harder to defend) _ You have less space at the top of your ramp to micro around (lost space for concave, ranged units waste some of their range behind a thick wall of buildings, etc...) _ If your opponent gets some high ground vision with a one base attack, you WILL lose buildings, which you would not have otherwise. | ||
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Troxle
United States486 Posts
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eeizbee
Canada19 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:42 ThePianoDentist wrote: i find it amusing the players who think they lost when they played against a random because of the gigantic economic setback of having to make their gateway at their ramp rather than next to nexus :| if you don't have enough variety in your game to be able to play versus random (e.g. a protoss player who only knows how to play ffe in PvZ) then that is your own fault, not the random players. walling off vs terran or protoss is a loss dip shit, or at LEAST strategically unsound. so we play the odds and pylon next to our base vs random, and it's basically a loss vs zerg by opening pylon beside nexus. now i try to make my statement sound as pretentious as yours. i find it amusing only a peon such as yourself would believe walling off vs random is the ideal solution. anyone worth replying to knows that if you put a gate at your ramp vs terran or protoss you are going to lose. if you don't have the intelligence to account for this when you give a solution don't bother replying in this thread. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25071 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:57 eeizbee wrote: walling off vs terran or protoss is a loss dip shit, or at LEAST strategically unsound. so we play the odds and pylon next to our base vs random, and it's basically a loss vs zerg by opening pylon beside nexus. now i try to make my statement sound as pretentious as yours. i find it amusing only a peon such as yourself would believe walling off vs random is the ideal solution. anyone worth replying to knows that if you put a gate at your ramp vs terran or protoss you are going to lose. if you don't have the intelligence to account for this when you give a solution don't bother replying in this thread. Quite the belligerent post but agreed. I also would like to know, after having my question ignored/dodged twice already in this thread now, whether random players who are 'straight up macro players' would accept their race being shown to their opponent in the loading screen. Bit of candour appreciated here folks. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 08:21 Wombat_NI wrote: Quite the belligerent post but agreed. I also would like to know, after having my question ignored/dodged twice already in this thread now, whether random players who are 'straight up macro players' would accept their race being shown to their opponent in the loading screen. Bit of candour appreciated here folks. I'm not random but I think it would be a good way (what you proposed was "Random (Protoss)") to valorize random players. It would actually change completely the opinion players have of them. For now, in my mind, randoms are like the "lowest scum" in SC2 if you will (not quite obviously, but you get the feeling, I don't mind playing against them, but I feel like they're somehow cheating, don't deserve their rank or are just some kids who can't make up their minds on which prank they're going to pull off or something, even if it's not a justifiable opinion and I sound like an asshole.) It's quite an extreme view, but I'm sure many share it. If their race was announced together with the fact that they're Random players and not just "Protoss" or "Random", it would actually mark them as very skilled players who have a real MMR of this level with all three races, and they're not just abusing randoming, coinflips and lack of information every game. If I played Random, I would be glad to have that. It would rule out all those who play random just to trick their opponents of course, while still allowing me my portraits, my titles, achievements and whatnot. Displaying only the race they spawn with doesn't reward them enough on the other hand, I feel. They're playing 9 matchups dammit, let them have some glory Random players who would not be willing to display their race at the start of the game are actually those I don't respect and acknowledge for their skill. That's just how it is, you don't need tricks if you're confident in your skill, my dear randoms. If you want to proxy some shit, at least have the guts to let us know if it's a gateway or a barracks. If you want to play ZvP, you must be ready to face a 8-10 minute 2 base all in fully backed up by the economy of a Nexus first forge FE. A real man picks his race. + Show Spoiler + Wait, so a real man is a race picker? Lol nvm, I'm just spouting bullshit now ;D | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
The part about random players not earning their rank is in my mind just straight up bs. You simply can't take away the fact that learning three races is way harder than learning one. Do you really think your gateway placement is a bigger problem than learning two additional races? Real men play random. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25071 Posts
On January 19 2012 09:07 ZenithM wrote: I'm not random but I think it would be a good way (what you proposed was "Random (Protoss)") to valorize random players. It would actually change completely the opinion players have of them. For now, in my mind, randoms are like the "lowest scum" in SC2 if you will (not quite obviously, but you get the feeling, I don't mind playing against them, but I feel like they're somehow cheating, don't deserve their rank or are just some kids who can't make up their minds on which prank they're going to pull off or something, even if it's not a justifiable opinion and I sound like an asshole.) It's quite an extreme view, but I'm sure many share it. If their race was announced together with the fact that they're Random players and not just "Protoss" or "Random", it would actually mark them as very skilled players who have a real MMR of this level with all three races, and they're not just abusing randoming, coinflips and lack of information every game. If I played Random, I would be glad to have that. It would rule out all those who play random just to trick their opponents of course, while still allowing me my portraits, my titles, achievements and whatnot. Displaying only the race they spawn with doesn't reward them enough on the other hand, I feel. They're playing 9 matchups dammit, let them have some glory Random players who would not be willing to display their race at the start of the game are actually those I don't respect and acknowledge for their skill. That's just how it is, you don't need tricks if you're confident in your skill, my dear randoms. If you want to proxy some shit, at least have the guts to let us know if it's a gateway or a barracks. If you want to play ZvP, you must be ready to face a 8-10 minute 2 base all in fully backed up by the economy of a Nexus first forge FE. A real man picks his race. + Show Spoiler + Wait, so a real man is a race picker? Lol nvm, I'm just spouting bullshit now ;D No I totally agree with much you say. It's taken a guy who hates playing against randoms to respond to me, because the random players seem to be refusing to do so. I'm not even bashing I'm just genuinely curious as to how such a change might be perceived by those who play random. I've been rolling random in custom lately as I have the single worst off-races in history, embarrassingly so. I tell them straight up what race I rolled, but apparently a lot of people just think I'm mind-fucking with them so they try to double bluff me and no wall off vs a Zerg. Going by the 'one safe build per matchup' rule that is recommended by most for guys starting out at the game, is it really that difficult to play random? Not hating on randoms by any means just would like a debate on the finer points of the issue. Also my activity in this thread is not at all influenced by all my vRandoms this season being on Tal'Darim Altar. Swear Blizz's matchmaking hates me. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 19 2012 09:35 Wombat_NI wrote: Going by the 'one safe build per matchup' rule that is recommended by most for guys starting out at the game, is it really that difficult to play random? Not hating on randoms by any means just would like a debate on the finer points of the issue. Also my activity in this thread is not at all influenced by all my vRandoms this season being on Tal'Darim Altar. Swear Blizz's matchmaking hates me. I can't speak for anyone else than my self, but I like to switch builds between most games, that turns into quite a few different builds when I have three races to juggle. I play for fun, and I just don't see the fun in doing one build order over and over and over. No matter what way you look at it you have to learn three fundamentally different races. Anyways, as I said earlier in the thread, I like your idea about revealing race on the loading screen. | ||
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Timerly
Germany511 Posts
No I totally agree with much you say. It's taken a guy who hates playing against randoms to respond to me, because the random players seem to be refusing to do so. I'm not even bashing I'm just genuinely curious as to how such a change might be perceived by those who play random. I wouldn't care at all. I've played random since release (beta T cause I didn't know wtf was going on in an RTS) and seriously, I might have done like 10 stupid all ins so far. Let them know the race, I'm fine with it. However, it is kinda fun to punish guys who gamble their 66% chance and don't wall off when you actually roll zerg. Or troll people who ask for your race after insulting you first^^ The actual benefit of playing Random is mostly this: You can't get blind cheesed. 6pool maybe but cannon rushed? Blind proxy gated on Shattered? Blind proxy raxed? That shit simply doesn't happen to Randoms a lot and we're all grateful for it. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 09:27 kyllinghest wrote: I think its a good idea to show which race a random player is. If somebody ask I always tell them anyways. The part about random players not earning their rank is in my mind just straight up bs. You simply can't take away the fact that learning three races is way harder than learning one. Do you really think your gateway placement is a bigger problem than learning two additional races? Real men play random. You know what, it's actually to the point where I would prefer switching on the fly my race to Terran when I'm matched against Random. At least my first building doesn't cost me the game. And I'm surely confident enough in my offrace to take on a random player. And if you think I exagerate about the whole "first pylon" thing, you never played PvR with R spawned as P trying to proxy gate you (well, maybe in a mirror matchup of yours, the oh-so silly Random vs Random). I think I could devise easily an entire strategy to win against Protoss if I'm Protoss myself but he doesn't know it and sillily builds his first pylon at the ramp, and whatever he's doing next. One of the keys to hold proxies in PvP is to pull probes to cover your pylon and your lesser zealot force, but if your pylon/production is too far, you're just dead as shit. Imagine taking your hatch first as Zerg in the middle of the map, good luck defending the bunker rush with the drones in your main... Similarly, there must be some kind of timing the Zerg can exploit if you build your pylon near your nexus (otherwise people would not have walled off at the ramp for one whole year of SC2). Zerg players don't even know themselves because for straight up Zerg players, it's a given than P will wall off or attempt a forge FE. A speedling timing can be quite deadly imo: if you wall with your second pylon, you must build 2 extra buildings, let's say the core, and another gate. When do you get that other gate? The earliest possible? Well you're probably going to have to cut something, a gas or a unit, but something very important against whatever all in Zerg chooses to do. Protoss may be the easiest race, I'm no one to judge, but one thing I'm quite convinced of, is that it's the most fragile race in the first 5-6 minutes of the game. You have like 2 combat units, and it's enough to kill one of your supply building to shutdown completely all your production. You don't have repair, you can't make static defenses, so you rely on clever building placement (there are entire thread about perfect simcities for FFE on all the maps), or at least not dumb as shit as in putting your first gateway at the ramp against P or T... Btw you'll probably get the harshest comments from Protoss, and the least from Terran, arguably cheese-proof. So to conclude, no, obviously, we don't learn 2 whole different races, but we can have free losses under 5 minutes. Can your randomed Terran have that? No. Losing a game in less than 5 minutes because we made bad decision-making (eventhoughwecouldn'tdoanythingaboutitbecausegoshyou'rerandom) doesn't make us feel good, so we feel we don't have to show respect for the cause of this: Random. Then again, I said that there are straight up random macro players, obviously, and I don't have anything against those. I would advance that randoms on TL don't represent the whole random demography very well, but trust me, I've been cheesed a lot by randoms when I was in diamond. Random cheese, and will always cheese. I mean that's kinda the beauty of it right? The opponent doesn't know, better trick him fast hahahaha. You must understand that most randoms on the ladder think that way. | ||
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
You deserve extra points or smth for posting such a cute pic <3 Yeah you could always just ask what race they are, when i go random i always say something like gg gl I'm Terran or whatever. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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MrAverage
19 Posts
Think of it as great practice, if you can hold off a 6 pool from random zerg then you're going to have no issues against a player who 6 pools after choosing zerg. If you can win a macro game after playing a sub-optimal opening then you're going to really crush when you can open with what you think is the optimal opening. Quit hating against the random players and just get better. If a player is a random cheeser and you have been matched against them that means their cheese is beating about 50% of the players at your level. Which 50% are you in? (Incidently I'd be in favour of having a Random Baller race option where my opponent could see my race.) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25071 Posts
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
1. Because I feel like random players normally cheese more. Proxy 2 rax, proxy 2 gate,6 pool. 2. I wanna know what race they play. If it's tal'darim I only scout for proxies while I open pool first unless I happen to see (his scouting workers) what race he plays. I also feel like random players generally should be worse at playing their race in a longer game. If I know that the guy I'm facing is only playing terran 1/3 of the time and he rarely goes to macro game that I will have the advantage. ( I play Z ) | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
That's why a lot of random players cheese in lower leagues. It's because they have no confidence in the later stages of the game. Zvr is pretty easy. 14 pool is super safe. So is 15 hatch if you scout well, it may only autolose to a very early cheese pool. TvR is also pretty easy on most maps. Wall off? it's good. scout for prxy voids if toss. Fine easy, safe. If it's a large macro oriented map, Rax expand is fine vs any race. even if they cheese. PvR is a bit harder. I prefer making a 12 gate and then scouting after the gateway, that way you can still prepare for pvp.... Honestly it's not that hard, just scout early and dont rely on builds like forge fast, 15 nexus. | ||
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phame21
Australia43 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Would definitely convinced me if your race was displayed on the loading screen. | ||
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gabapenteado
Brazil37 Posts
Whenever people ask me which race i'm playing, i always tell them, and it doesn't cost you nothing to ask. PS: Anyone else thinks that the race that the random spawns should be shown on the loading screen? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25071 Posts
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MrAverage
19 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 11:09 gabapenteado wrote: As a random player, i can give you a brilliant strategy: ask. Whenever people ask me which race i'm playing, i always tell them, and it doesn't cost you nothing to ask. PS: Anyone else thinks that the race that the random spawns should be shown on the loading screen? What happens usually is that you won't believe the guy anyway. However, personally if the random player gave me his race without me asking for it ("gl hf gg I'm Terran "), I would believe him. If he lied, well, I'm sorry for you randoms, to have such douchebags among your ranks | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
For example P vs random on tal darim. Vs T my to go build there is 16 nex, vs P it's 12 gate into 4 gate or something and vs Z it's FFE. Even if i 9 scout I will likely not find them on time so all I can do is some crappy gate+core opening which is already very frustating for 2 out of the 3 matchups. Whatever build you choose you either autolose a matchup or are just massively behind. Random is alright and all but doesn't just everybody agree that the race should be shown on the loading screen? Why should someone's desire to play random utterly annoy the player he is facing. | ||
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phame21
Australia43 Posts
On January 19 2012 11:09 gabapenteado wrote: As a random player, i can give you a brilliant strategy: ask. Whenever people ask me which race i'm playing, i always tell them, and it doesn't cost you nothing to ask. PS: Anyone else thinks that the race that the random spawns should be shown on the loading screen? Why tell them? The point of playing random is that they can't predict your opening move. | ||
phiinix
United States1169 Posts
As zerg I think you can get away with 14h/14p, it's honestly the safest race against random as many people have said. Playing tal darim is freaking awfull though. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 11:17 phame21 wrote: Why tell them? The point of playing random is that they can't predict your opening move. You're not a random player, are you? :D "What is Random for you?" [Random player: ] I'm a master of all three races, I like to deepen my knowledge of the game and knowing every build and matchup there is. I think that I'm that much more skilled than my opponents because these guys...wait for it...picked their race because they liked it, hahaha. Fucking racists. [Non random player: ] Bah, I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable not knowing what I'm up against but it's not that bad. I mean I know they cheese like 90% of the time but it's good practice against cheese anyway. You just have to have a solid build, but of course you autolose 33% and are behind 80% of the time. Those cheeky bastards just fucking proxy some shit on the map like they own the place. Screw those scumbags. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
1) Heightened sense on dealing with cheesy builds (follows onto the next point), ie: pressure handling 2) Requires you to shift some focus on scouting and helps build better reads on opponents (even though they might be in silver/gold league) 3) Trains you split-second decision making, more particularly, you have to change your build order on the spot and adapt to the race your playing against I actually like playing as Random sometimes and I laugh when I meet another Random player too. Spawn as Zerg and your just so curious... "what race is he??, he can't be zerg as well... can he?!?!", then BAM your both Zerg and probably the same thoughts crossed each others mind. | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
I'm happy for the other player to play random, and I dislike making the game not enjoyable for him, but it's a waste of my time. I just basic 12gate 4gate, unless I scout Terran with wall off -> change to 3gate voidray. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
1) "People pick random do exploit a minor advantage" Myself and the random players I know choose random because it is FUN. If you think for a second that players wouldn't win more often with their best race every game versus playing 3 races and 9 matchups you are nuts. 2) "All random players cheese". Sure, plenty of random players cheese. Guess what, so do a lot of zerg, terran, and toss players. And as a random player, I get cheesed FAR more often than I do as Zerg or Terran. FWIW, the only cheese I prefer as random is "macro cheese". 1 rax CC, 1gate expo or 14 nexus, 15 hatch, etc... 3) "Random players are bm" You wouldn't believe the kind of sht people say when games start. If I had a dollar for every time someone called me a skill-less faggot after I offer up a glhf, I'd be a wealthy man. 4) "Random is easy and takes no skill". Completely false. I don't know optimal builds/timings/styles with my off races like people that play one race do, so I have to win by out-macroing my opponents as random. I was top 8 master 2 seasons ago before messing around with random, and now I hover around high diamond and low master. The real question is, why do you hypocrites complain about random players and their cheesy one base all ins but then blindly go all in yourself? If you are really the better player, you would take a very standard, cheese-safe opening like 14gas/14pool and overcome the minor econ advantage your opponent might have gotten by econ cheesing you. For all those that say it's easy, shouldn't be part of the game etc... try it. Your MMR will drop. Your ranking will drop. But you will have a whole lot of fun exploring other races. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44245 Posts
On January 19 2012 11:16 Markwerf wrote: Playing as protoss vs a random frustates me so much on some maps. For example P vs random on tal darim. Vs T my to go build there is 16 nex, vs P it's 12 gate into 4 gate or something and vs Z it's FFE. Even if i 9 scout I will likely not find them on time so all I can do is some crappy gate+core opening which is already very frustating for 2 out of the 3 matchups. Whatever build you choose you either autolose a matchup or are just massively behind. Random is alright and all but doesn't just everybody agree that the race should be shown on the loading screen? Why should someone's desire to play random utterly annoy the player he is facing. This is exactly my problem (PvR), and TDA is the map that epitomizes my frustration. The opening builds are so different depending on the match-up. Even the starting pylon is put in different places. Either you start building in front of your natural and your shit gets sniped by ranged units from the wrong race, or you sim city in your main and you fall behind Zerg because you didn't FE and now there's lings running around inside your base. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:56 Troxle wrote: Playing versus random doesn't change anything. If anything it forces you to be less greedy and play safer. On large maps they have advantage because scouts come later, but be safe and just 14/14 as zerg (its optimal in 2/3 matchups don't risk the 33.33333% chance). Go 9 pylon 12/13 gate and wall the ramp. Terran has it easysince they tend to 10-12-13 every matchup anyways, where they gonext, well that's why you scout. Playing versus random proves you know your race. If they cheese, what would change if you knew their race beforehand. Random isn't a shroud to hide an all-in, but instead to either unnerve the opponent or an indecisive person as far as race goes. Don't think every random person as an all-in player, just be smart and play defensive/safe. If you lose, watch the replay, and ask yourself "How well did I scout? Would knowing the race prior to building my first worker have changed anything?" If you can't change your build order to react to your opponent, why do you play a RTS? The game is constantly evolving, adapt and overcome. Pretty much everything this guy said is correct. If you lost against a random player for any reason, either you got all inned or you got beat out in a straight up macro game where the Random player had the slightest of leads at the beginning. Either way you lost because you obviously didn't know the match up as well as you think you do. If the only way you can beat a Zerg is to FFE well then you need to admit to yourself that you're helpless in PvZ without a FFE before you start to bash random players. If the only way you can beat a Terran as Zerg is with a 15 hatch then obviously you aren't as good at macroing in the midgame as you should be because without the early worker lead Zerg automatically gets with a 15 hatch you're helpless. The list goes on. Any slight disadvantage you might suffer when you don't know you're opponent's race is equalled by the Random player who has to learn the timings and build orders of 9 match ups as opposed to 3. He's walking into the match with an inherent deficit in experience because he has to play 3 times as many games in order to equal the experience you've gained playing on the ladder. Don't blame Random for your loss, same as everything in this game, focus on your own play first. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:19 Wombat_NI wrote: I posted earlier, but would you as a random player object to your race being revealed i.e in the loading screen if you rolled Protoss it would have your Bnet name, Random (Protoss)? If you genuinely want to play all 3 races in a standard way, you should surely not want the distortion that comes with the vRandom mindset that has to be adopted by your opponent? I would argue against it just because on principle i think it's bullshit that people have the audacity to complain about their own disadvantages against Random players when playing Random in straight up macro games is by far the most difficult way to play this game. There's a reason you NEVER see Random players in major tournaments even though the rules allow for it, and there's reasons why prominent random players in the past like TLO and Gumiho have been forced to pick a single race. Playing Random is hard! I'm not saying I NEED the random advantage to survive on the ladder, and if my race was shown at the start of the screeen I'd probably still play random but I think i'm justified in having it because I SHOULD already be at a disadvantage walking into every single game. I understand that losing to cheese sucks, and I understand that losing to vs Random cheese probably sucks more because it gives you one more excuse why you lost instead of blaming yourself for own level of play, but slapping our race on the loading screen will not reduce the rate some randoms cheese and will not improve your overall experience on the ladder. So why bother? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 19 2012 13:26 kofman wrote: i have absolutely no respect for randoms. i bm every random i find as hard as i can, because they take advantage of a broken system. seriously, on a map like tal'darim, you have to scout on 8 as Terran, which is insanely early and makes ur economy so much worse. also, theres a 1/3 chance that ur opponent spawned on the place you checked last, meaning that you can't do a particular build like reactored hellion tvz or maruder expand tvp, instead you have to do some tweaner build that is bad vs both zerg and protoss so that you don't autolose, since reactored hellion expand is terrible vs protoss. they should really make it so that random's race is displayed in the beginning, so that they don't autowin a good percentage of their games just because you happenned to spawn in the location that was checked last. So it's our fault that you're helpless in a matchup without a specific opening? Terran players have the least right to complain about the random advantage. Protoss I can least moderately understand, but if you only know ONE opening per match up as Terran then you rely more on gimmicks than any random player does. To put it into perspective. I use 3 different TvZ openings 2 different ZvT openings 3 different ZvP openings 3 different ZvZ openings 3 different PvT openings 3 different PvP openings 3 different PvZ openings 4 different TvP openings 5 different TvT openings. = 29 openings I have memorized and have to practice. You're telling me you're helpless if you have to learn more than 3? | ||
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Lysergic
United States355 Posts
Unfortunately, a lot of people have the mindset that random players always cheese. I'm random and always open 15 Hatch, 1RaxFE, and FFE or 1GateFE or 3GateRobo(PvP). I haven't faced enough randoms to make up generalizations like the OP, but many of the randoms I face don't all-in. However, I frequently play against cheese from all races on ladder. Here's a screenshot of a SC2Gears multi-replay analysis of all my ladder 1v1s from Season 2 through Season 5: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7HhIW.jpg) I lose most games under 15 min long; people all-in me all the time. My win rate increases as the game length increases. I win about 20% of the games under 10 minutes long. Yet I win 60-70% of games 20-40 min long. So much for the "randoms always all-in" and "randoms can't macro" theories. The OP's reasoning doesn't make sense. You justify your 7 pool by using an example of one game you happened to win. You went 7 pool and outplayed a random who went 6 pool. So what? You could of beat him by going 14/14, and if he did any other all-in or was Terran or Protoss, your 7 pool most likely would of lost, while a 14/14 can hold any all-in. Playing vs randoms isn't even a problem as Zerg. On most maps, Zerg scouts the opponent so easily with their first overlord and a drone scout if necessary. Most of the time, you'll scout them (or they'll scout you) before 15 supply. It's only unfair for Protoss to play against randoms, especially on Forge FE maps (Tal'darim etc). And it can be annoying for Terran's that don't know whether to get a refinery at 13 or go 1 Rax FE. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 19 2012 13:52 lysergic wrote: I play random, and I occasionally tell my opponent what race I am at the start of the game. I always tell my Protoss opponents what race I am on maps they could Forge FE on; it's a waste of both of our times when my opponent is forced into playing differently. I play ladder to improve, I don't care about winning. Unfortunately, a lot of people have the mindset that random players always cheese. I'm random and always open 15 Hatch, 1RaxFE, and FFE or 1GateFE or 3GateRobo(PvP). I haven't faced enough randoms to make up generalizations like the OP, but many of the randoms I face don't all-in. However, I frequently play against cheese from all races on ladder. Here's a screenshot of a SC2Gears multi-replay analysis of all my ladder 1v1s from Season 2 through Season 5: I lose most games under 15 min long; people all-in me all the time. My win rate increases as the game length increases. I win about 20% of the games under 10 minutes long. Yet I win 60-70% of games 20-40 min long. So much for the "randoms always all-in" and "randoms can't macro" theories. The OP's reasoning doesn't make sense. You justify your 7 pool by using an example of one game you happened to win. You went 7 pool and outplayed a random who went 6 pool. So what? You could of beat him by going 14/14, and if he did any other all-in or was Terran or Protoss, your 7 pool most likely would of lost, while a 14/14 can hold any all-in. Playing vs randoms isn't even a problem as Zerg. On most maps, Zerg scouts the opponent so easily with their first overlord and a drone scout if necessary. Most of the time, you'll scout them (or they'll scout you) before 15 supply. It's only unfair for Protoss to play against randoms, especially on Forge FE maps (Tal'darim etc). And it can be annoying for Terran's that don't know whether to get a refinery at 13 or go 1 Rax FE. You can go gas at 13 in every match up. Marauder expands and Reactored Hellion openings are standard in TvP and TvZ and both use gas at 13 and there's like 12 different TvT openings that do also. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On January 19 2012 14:06 SKTerran.117 wrote: marauder expand is really bad on any map where you should be gasless expanding your basicly delaying your expansion for no reason, plus making it harder for yourself to hold void ray all ins who said anything about marauder expanding? =/ 1 rax Gasless or Reaper FE | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
Or quitting is fine too since it's only ladder and knowing how to vs Random isn't exactly a life-changing skill. I'm Terran but I think if I saw a Random I'd open 12 rax 13 gas and then I should know what race he is and play standard from there. | ||
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tome567
United States18 Posts
Random has these advantages: - generally a better game knowledge due to playing all races - knowledge of the matchup - ability to stop match specific builds and these disadvantages: - have to learn 9 matchups (complete with timings, counters, builds, and all the like) - less practice with each individual race I think that the current system rewards random players for choosing random by giving them the edge of knowing the matchup. For example, if im playing a protoss on taldarim and i roll zerg, the toss would most likely ffe if they knew i was zerg. Since they can't, i can take advantage of knowing that i will have an economic advantage, but also, i should probably play safer because people tend to be aggressive if they dont ffe. I also think that random players strength should be in creative/unorthodox play. In order to makeup for not practicing only one race's mechanics I think random players should try to play in a style that makes all 3 races similar. For example, I play blink stalker into zealot archon pvz and dts into zealot archon pvt because the warpgate mechanic works similar to the larvae mechanic in that you build units at once instead of constantly checking the queues. playing something like mech zvt helps me nothing playing zerg with a lot of lings. TL;DR Random gets some advantages by having their race hidden, imho randoms should play a similar style all 3 races. | ||
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Ariuz
Germany39 Posts
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 19 2012 13:26 kofman wrote: i have absolutely no respect for randoms. i bm every random i find as hard as i can, because they take advantage of a broken system. seriously, on a map like tal'darim, you have to scout on 8 as Terran, which is insanely early and makes ur economy so much worse. also, theres a 1/3 chance that ur opponent spawned on the place you checked last, meaning that you can't do a particular build like reactored hellion tvz or maruder expand tvp, instead you have to do some tweaner build that is bad vs both zerg and protoss so that you don't autolose, since reactored hellion expand is terrible vs protoss. they should really make it so that random's race is displayed in the beginning, so that they don't autowin a good percentage of their games just because you happenned to spawn in the location that was checked last. You don't have to guess wtf. You can scout after depot if you're paranoid and still find their race in time to do a specific build. Seriously people who bm randoms for no reason are assholes. Learn to scout, it's not that hard. I've never cheesed as random, but what's the difference in randoms cheesing and a Terran 2rax allining, Protoss 4gating, or Zerg 7pooling every game? Do you bm them too? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 19 2012 15:38 K3Nyy wrote: You don't have to guess wtf. You can scout after depot if you're paranoid and still find their race in time to do a specific build. Seriously people who bm randoms for no reason are assholes. Learn to scout, it's not that hard. I've never cheesed as random, but what's the difference in randoms cheesing and a Terran 2rax allining, Protoss 4gating, or Zerg 7pooling every game? Do you bm them too? BMing cheesers is one thing. BMing every random regardless of how they play is what this guy is actually admitting to. One is understandable and one isn't. | ||
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Honcepoi
Germany29 Posts
The Thing is that I have to learn the Way Protoss and Terran is played in every matchup. So I think for that I diserve it to not display my race. Every player playing just 1 race should think that he must be better than the random player in a normal game. So if you think you are the better player why not scout early? That few minerals dont hurt if you are the better player anyways. By the time I was playing 1 race I always scouted early and played my normal game without minding my opponent was even playing random. The few scouting minerals are in my opinion just an excuse. Most people like to play greedy and dont scout or scout late. So if a random forces you to play safe and scout them early they think the matchup is not fair anymore... | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On January 19 2012 15:38 K3Nyy wrote: You don't have to guess wtf. You can scout after depot if you're paranoid and still find their race in time to do a specific build. Seriously people who bm randoms for no reason are assholes. Learn to scout, it's not that hard. I've never cheesed as random, but what's the difference in randoms cheesing and a Terran 2rax allining, Protoss 4gating, or Zerg 7pooling every game? Do you bm them too? No, even if you scout after depot, there is no way to see what race they are if they spawn on the 3rd position you check on tal'darim before you have to take your 13 gas. tvp i gasless expand and tvz and tvt i do 111, if i don't scout random on either 1st or 2nd position, i have to take a guess whether the random is protoss, zerg, or terran. basically, if the opponent turns out to be protoss and i take gas, i lose. if my opponent is zerg or terran and i don't take gas, i lose. its a coinflip. I BM randoms for a reason. its because they start the game with an unfair advantage, something that even scouting doesn't help sometimes. "I've never cheesed as random"... really? never? there is no way you have never cheesed before. i don't hate randoms that cheese any more than i would race pickers that cheese. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On January 19 2012 15:42 Vindicare605 wrote: BMing cheesers is one thing. BMing every random regardless of how they play is what this guy is actually admitting to. One is understandable and one isn't. people don't like cheesers becuase they are cheap. randoms are cheap, too, because you sometimes autolose just because of the spawn positions and what race the random is. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 19 2012 16:23 kofman wrote: people don't like cheesers becuase they are cheap. randoms are cheap, too, because you sometimes autolose just because of the spawn positions and what race the random is. You do not auto lose stop being dramatic at the absolute WORST, your first command center is slightly delayed. Terrans lose NOTHING else in the time it takes to scout a random if they send their SCV to scout after they build their first depot. you're a terran player. 12 rax, 13 gas/supplydepot block is safe from EVERY early cheese anyone can throw at you. Zergs can autolose vs a random if they drop a 15 hatch, Protoss can autolose if they forge fast expand vs a random that spawns as Protoss. Terrans should NEVER autolose to a random unless you're doing some dumb proxy rax crap and find out your opponent has spawned on the other side of the map. | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
On January 19 2012 10:24 Sajaki wrote: You deserve extra points or smth for posting such a cute pic <3 Yeah you could always just ask what race they are, when i go random i always say something like gg gl I'm Terran or whatever. Yea i would always tell the enemy what race, but only if they wanted to know though. The main problem with that are the two points that has been discussed for like 9 pages (haha) now. 1: They may not believe you when you say your race and just ignore your deep and sincere honesty 2: Just because you are random they excpect you too do some early shinanigans without economic follow ups and will just play overly safe or, do some early shinanigans themselves. The latter i would personally consider fighting the purpose of logic and consistency by: You presume that random cheese, you dont like cheese, you cheese. What if the random doesnt like cheese either? My only tips too people playing random would be: Scout early and accept your economic backwardness, or accept that you wont know their race before one of you bravely ventures through the mist of war. And dont underestimate the power of a random macroer. And random players. Do what you find the most fun :D | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
You mine gas until you have scouted him and then stop at 50 or 75. You can then go for a reactored barracks expand (slightly outdated build, but the most economical gas expand build), or techlab reaper expand, depending on your preference. Both are very similar to 1 rax gasless expand in their followups so you shouldn't be too thrown off. I think those builds are honestly quite reasonable trade-offs. If I could do something similar as Protoss I would but you can't do interesting builds like that with P, we're very matchup dependent. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On January 19 2012 13:26 kofman wrote: i have absolutely no respect for randoms. i bm every random i find as hard as i can, because they take advantage of a broken system. seriously, on a map like tal'darim, you have to scout on 8 as Terran, which is insanely early and makes ur economy so much worse. also, theres a 1/3 chance that ur opponent spawned on the place you checked last, meaning that you can't do a particular build like reactored hellion tvz or maruder expand tvp, instead you have to do some tweaner build that is bad vs both zerg and protoss so that you don't autolose, since reactored hellion expand is terrible vs protoss. they should really make it so that random's race is displayed in the beginning, so that they don't autowin a good percentage of their games just because you happenned to spawn in the location that was checked last. wow what a tool. Why would you bm anyone? if you didn't bm maybe they'd tell you their race. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
But yeah, you shouldn't BM anyway on Bnet | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On January 18 2012 22:09 Tobberoth wrote: According to Snute, high GM EU, hatch first in ZvZ is a build order loss to 10 pool or earlier pool, drones or not. He actively uses it a lot because he finds it so ridiculous that zergs actually attempt to hatch first in ZvZ. According to all the Zergs in GSL 9 pool or earlier is holdable if you play well enough (and I've held all of these). 10 pool plus drones has never been held in a tournament as far as I know, almost every other early pool build is OFTEN beaten by hatch first. Obviously somebody who is good enough at x-pooling and attacking with just lings can still take wins, but if you don't pull drones it's not a hard counter and if you do earlier than 10-pool you can still lose. I'm not grandmaster of course, but 6, 7 & 8 pool aren't actually too hard to hold at all, IMO. 9-pool and 10-pool are way harder to stop, IMO (especially if they pull drones, no drones, no worries). 6 or 7 pool are auto-loss vs ANY Zerg opener if no mistakes are made. Maybe it's just that I've had more practice (I get cheesed all the time as a random player) at holding off early pools, but I'm not scared of most early pool builds (which is not to say that I never lose, I'm just not scared, just like sometimes I lose to a 3-rax in PvT, but it's not something that I'm actively scared of). EDIT: Also, I whole-heartedly agree that my race should be shown on the loading screen. Announcing it seems pointless as almost no players will actually believe me. I'd like to know which hotkey I'm about to use as well as be able to play more normal games . | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote: In addition, many random players just cheese/all-in (i don't know why). Maybe because it's easier to learn 3 matchups rather than 9? Maybe because it's easier to macro and micro one race rather than three? Against randoms, I either 7pool allin (only sad when they're Terran) or 11pool 18hatch which is safe against anything really and then transition into the usual build order off of that. | ||
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SEA KarMa
Australia452 Posts
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 19 2012 16:21 kofman wrote: No, even if you scout after depot, there is no way to see what race they are if they spawn on the 3rd position you check on tal'darim before you have to take your 13 gas. tvp i gasless expand and tvz and tvt i do 111, if i don't scout random on either 1st or 2nd position, i have to take a guess whether the random is protoss, zerg, or terran. basically, if the opponent turns out to be protoss and i take gas, i lose. if my opponent is zerg or terran and i don't take gas, i lose. its a coinflip. I BM randoms for a reason. its because they start the game with an unfair advantage, something that even scouting doesn't help sometimes. In what matchup, and against what build is a one rax expand autoloss on big maps? If you seriously only have one build for each matchup you deserve that loss, because as terran you can do all sorts of builds that are viable in all matchups. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 19 2012 22:04 kyllinghest wrote: In what matchup, and against what build is a one rax expand autoloss on big maps? If you seriously only have one build for each matchup you deserve that loss, because as terran you can do all sorts of builds that are viable in all matchups. 1 build per MU deserves a loss? Ignoring that little bit of retardation, his first point is good. You can 1 rax FE on all maps against all races, especially big maps. Just 1 rax FE vs any random, you need to learn to hold cheese anyway, playing against a random means you know its more likely the cheese will come. Also about most randoms cheesing, and most randoms on TL saying they dont. Both are probably true. The TL are just the vocal minority, the vast majoirty of randoms dont post on TL, and in most peoples experience, most R cheese. Also 14/14 is really bad on small maps against terran. Have fun holding a dedicated 2 rax. I also ask every game. Most R will tell you. Some will be dicks and lie, but if they have lied and you scout it, its almost 100% they will cheese you so its almost better then them telling the truth. | ||
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Oliveran
Sweden72 Posts
Else, just play normal after your 14/14! | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 19 2012 22:26 Oliveran wrote: It's called "14/14", the theoretically best opening. And if the T/P goes for a fast-expand, go and double expand behind your speed-ling pressure. Else, just play normal after your 14/14! 14/14 is not the best opening vs T. Thats just wrong. Sorry if you meant ZvZ only | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
Don't worry. Don't hate. Let them call us cheeser. Let them blame us for always allining. I take full advantage of said stereotypes. I open my games by writing "good luck and have fun buddy" "you got good weather?" "how are you?" "you watch tourny XY?". They will get even more scared as more you chat with them. If you are not that evil and are that nice to be willingly to tell your race at start: i always put together some lil cute riddles to get them hints to my race, much fun! :D Dear OP: Get your scouttimings right. Often your are able to scout before you need to make the decision to go 15h/15p or whatever. In general (im dia with zerg, playing vs dia on my random acc) i would suggest a 15p. Really "behind" are you only when facing terrans and thats just siginificantly. And this you should only do if you scout him last. Try it out, get on every map and stop the time your worker needs to check the close&cross spawn. If you didn't scout him untill then -> 15pool. Just my 2 cents. | ||
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On January 19 2012 22:51 aebriol wrote: I just 6 pool every game vs random. And I guess you are one those guys who cries the most that randomers are ONLY cheesing AND allining eh? Good luck. Next time maybe contribute something usefull to threads in the strategy forum. | ||
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phame21
Australia43 Posts
On January 19 2012 11:30 ZenithM wrote: You're not a random player, are you? :D "What is Random for you?" [Random player: ] I'm a master of all three races, I like to deepen my knowledge of the game and knowing every build and matchup there is. I think that I'm that much more skilled than my opponents because these guys...wait for it...picked their race because they liked it, hahaha. Fucking racists. [Non random player: ] Bah, I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable not knowing what I'm up against but it's not that bad. I mean I know they cheese like 90% of the time but it's good practice against cheese anyway. You just have to have a solid build, but of course you autolose 33% and are behind 80% of the time. Those cheeky bastards just fucking proxy some shit on the map like they own the place. Screw those scumbags. I am a random masters player. and u, sir, are a douchebag. u dont know the meaning of random apparently | ||
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Immutant
Singapore201 Posts
On January 19 2012 13:52 lysergic wrote: I play random, and I occasionally tell my opponent what race I am at the start of the game. I always tell my Protoss opponents what race I am on maps they could Forge FE on; it's a waste of both of our times when my opponent is forced into playing differently. I play ladder to improve, I don't care about winning. Unfortunately, a lot of people have the mindset that random players always cheese. I'm random and always open 15 Hatch, 1RaxFE, and FFE or 1GateFE or 3GateRobo(PvP). I haven't faced enough randoms to make up generalizations like the OP, but many of the randoms I face don't all-in. However, I frequently play against cheese from all races on ladder. Here's a screenshot of a SC2Gears multi-replay analysis of all my ladder 1v1s from Season 2 through Season 5: Indeed, the generalization that randoms's can't play a proper macro game is wrong. Some randoms cheese, others prefer a macro game. Below are my stats. By pure coincidence, it seems that I have a 100% win rate after 30 mins and the best timing for my opponent to attack lategame would be at the 25-30 min mark, where he'll have a good 50-50 chance of winning. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b44yN.jpg) Much of my early game loses come from this: "glhf, mind telling me your race?" "I am race X" 5 mins later Some race specific cheeseeeee "gg" That is probably the macro random weakness. Because they are so used to the opponent playing safe (or doing a lousy cheese with no info), they will not be able to react to race specific early game pressure. But in the mid game, they should have scouted the opponent's build and reacted accordingly. I think mastery of the zerg race is very useful. 1 Zerg sense of timing and danger 2 Macro Then abuse the knowledge (use what your fear will be used against you on your opponent) and win. Against another random, I just put on my game face, and think "may the best random win". And do a safe build. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 19 2012 22:59 phame21 wrote: I am a random masters player. and u, sir, are a douchebag. u dont know the meaning of random apparently Huh you apparently misunderstood my post, I was only parodying what people think of randoms players. Regardless, you're only consolidating the idea that you play random precisely to do some shady bullshit then? I didn't hope for that much so thanks to you sir, that's what all non randoms want to prove in this thread since the first page :D I open my games by writing "good luck and have fun buddy" "you got good weather?" "how are you?" "you watch tourny XY?". They will get even more scared as more you chat with them. If you are not that evil and are that nice to be willingly to tell your race at start: i always put together some lil cute riddles to get them hints to my race, much fun! :D It's funny how it fits so well with the mental image I have of random players, which I already shared in this thread: + Show Spoiler + it must be very pleasant to play every single game against an opponent scared shitless of "what the hell this clown is going to throw at him" (It's exactly my thoughts when I play versus random :D, don't take it personally, I just imagine some guy clothed like a clown with multiple colors, trying to throw at you magic tricks and unfunny jokes :D) | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 19 2012 22:22 Squigly wrote: 1 build per MU deserves a loss? Ignoring that little bit of retardation, his first point is good. Im sorry we have a different opinion, but that doesnt in anyways make me retarded. I strongly believe that if you can't manage to mix up your builds as a terran vs random you don't deserve to win versus said random player who has to juggle way more builds. | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On January 19 2012 23:07 ZenithM wrote: Huh you apparently misunderstood my post, I was only parodying what people think of randoms players. Regardless, you're only consolidating the idea that you play random precisely to do some shady bullshit then? I didn't hope for that much so thanks to you sir, that's what all non randoms want to prove in this thread since the first page :D It's funny how it fits so well with the mental image I have of random players, which I already shared in this thread: + Show Spoiler + it must be very pleasant to play every single game against an opponent scared shitless of "what the hell this clown is going to throw at him" (It's exactly my thoughts when I play versus random :D, don't take it personally, I just imagine some guy clothed like a clown with multiple colors, trying to throw at you magic tricks and unfunny jokes :D) You are misinterpreting something. It is not my mindset, i just take advantage of the enemies mindset. When I play on my main account as zerg and face random i'll be more relaxed than playing vs a specific race. Why? Because the only thing i need to be scared of is that i fail to scout correctly(by that i mean: my base and proxy positions) otherwise I feel I'm in an advantage. If the mindset is so disturbed by the fact that you can't trust in your superior skill of playing/focusing on one race, it is not the random players fault. Just your own. edit: typo | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
and ofcourse, ice fisher is quite safe aswell. | ||
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E.H Eager
United States227 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On January 19 2012 22:55 bluQ wrote: And I guess you are one those guys who cries the most that randomers are ONLY cheesing AND allining eh? Good luck. Next time maybe contribute something usefull to threads in the strategy forum. And I guess you are one of those people who can't read. Or are just plain old stupid and don't comprehend what you are reading. The original post includes the question 'How do you play against random players on the ladder ?' as a conclusion, and I answered it. Maybe the thread itself should have been closed if the moderators felt it wasn't useful, since it's basically a poll about how people respond to facing a random player. But my contribution is actually on topic 100%. In addition, I don't complain or cry about randoms or how they only cheese or all in ... I don't like playing them because I want to practice specific matchups, so I just 6 pool, and I don't do whatever you said. If you could read, you would have seen that I didn't. So in other words, next time, you should learn to read before you answer a post. So maybe you understood what the fuck you were responding to. | ||
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Muppetz
Germany47 Posts
That is the main reason i play random, besides not wanting to be settled on one race.If somebody asks me, what race i got, i will answer truly - no point in lying imo. Playing for fun, right? On January 19 2012 23:11 kyllinghest wrote: Im sorry we have a different opinion, but that doesnt in anyways make me retarded. I strongly believe that if you can't manage to mix up your builds as a terran vs random you don't deserve to win versus said random player who has to juggle way more builds. kinda have to agree with u on this | ||
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OceanLab
France505 Posts
On a side note, some of the random players actually tell you what race they randomed, as long as you ask. And they've never lied (so far^^) | ||
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LuisFrost
Mexico130 Posts
I tried announcing it at the start as some people here say, but in return people get MORE paranoid, and therefore start a worse BM than if I just ignore them, "if u say ur race ur not dat race u cheesy random n00b". So, at least for me in the NA ladder it's not a pleasant option. The problem would go away if your race was revealed in the opening screen; I'm OK with that idea. As some people say, TDA is terrible vsR. Still, very few people ask for my race and I always tell the truth. Sometimes I play randoms, when they lie about their race you'll find out fast enough to start preparing for something fishy (unless it's TDA, of course). So please guys, I BEG YOU, spread hate against randoms only after you see what happens if you ask for the race. If after that experiment most of us DO turn out to be cheese evil scumbags... well, guess I'll have to start wearing punk hairstyles or something. PD: Until I get my panda decal I won't roll a dice. Sorry for playing the game I paid for in the way I find it the most rewarding. | ||
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d00p
711 Posts
And yes, I throw in the occasional cheese and people rage. I also get cheesed a lot (way more than as Z or P). Part of the fun. And lol @ someone calling cheese "shady shit". Like it was illegal or something.. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 19 2012 16:21 kofman wrote: No, even if you scout after depot, there is no way to see what race they are if they spawn on the 3rd position you check on tal'darim before you have to take your 13 gas. tvp i gasless expand and tvz and tvt i do 111, if i don't scout random on either 1st or 2nd position, i have to take a guess whether the random is protoss, zerg, or terran. basically, if the opponent turns out to be protoss and i take gas, i lose. if my opponent is zerg or terran and i don't take gas, i lose. its a coinflip. I BM randoms for a reason. its because they start the game with an unfair advantage, something that even scouting doesn't help sometimes. "I've never cheesed as random"... really? never? there is no way you have never cheesed before. i don't hate randoms that cheese any more than i would race pickers that cheese. Lol.. if you take gas vs P and no gas vs T/Z, you lose? Associating a loss because you couldn't gasless expand is really laughable. You can do so much stuff with gas, you even said you marauder expand in your earlier post. I feel like you're just making up excuses to hate on randoms. If you lose the game, chances are it's 100% your fault, not because you couldn't gasless expand. | ||
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copacetic
56 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 19 2012 23:11 kyllinghest wrote: Im sorry we have a different opinion, but that doesnt in anyways make me retarded. I strongly believe that if you can't manage to mix up your builds as a terran vs random you don't deserve to win versus said random player who has to juggle way more builds. You dont HAVE to learn more builds. You choose to as your play R. You should not need to learn more than 1 build for BO1 format. Why2, why not 3? If 3 why not 4. You see my point. Is it literally you think T need a TvR specific build is safe. Playing TvR builds will always put you behind a R if they get the lucky race, and never ahead. Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:32 Tobberoth wrote: No you can't, the same constraint holds. Sure, lets say a random player has played 6000 games, about 2000 for each race, and you've only played 2000 for your race. You're in equal positions on the ladder, and you've played the same amount of games for your races. You lose to the random player. That's sort of like losing to a smurf, the random player has gimped himself and would have been MUCH better had he played all those 6000 games on a main race. While that means that you can definitely meet a random player who is good enough with his race to take you down in a straight up game, it's not something you should worry about since it makes sense to lose to someone who has played 3 times the amount you have. There exists something called the 80-20 rule (idk if that's it exactly but the point holds constant). You achieve 80% of your skill in 20% of the time and the remaining 20% in 80% of the time. I play random because my 20% effort puts me into masters. My mindset and previous knowledge puts me in masters with minimal effort (20%) but it would take a lot of effort to advance past that (80%) so I just have fun and random and don't really worry about improving that much. Every random player has his strengths and weaknesses. My overall macro is pretty solid, so even when learning a new build for a new race I can take it to the lategame pretty confidently. My weakness is in holding off all the small variances of the all-ins the opponent can do in the early game. To beat a random player, my suggestion would be to play a high pressure style (ex: muta play instead of infestor play ZvT or ZvP) because forcing a random player onto his backfoot forces him into a scenario he is in 1/3rd as often, and it's a scenario you really have to play through to learn. Anyone can have solid macro but when you have to put so much of your focus into just pulling it off, constant harass/pressure will be much more detrimental to their play. | ||
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coriamon
244 Posts
Most people believe that they need to use the most standard play to be ahead. I believe this to be wrong. As Terran, a build such as a banshee expand works well vs every race. As Protoss, a 3 gate opening works well. If you scout that the opponent is protoss after, just add a robo, and start building stalkers instead of sentries. You will be in the defensive nature initially, but you still will be fine vs every race. As Zerg, a 14/14 doesn't put you behind (even a terran); it just is sacrificing a little econ for tech. And the tech is needed anyways. It means that your expo will be completely safe to every race. Learn 4 builds instead of 3. It will help vs random every time. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 20 2012 05:22 coriamon wrote: Think of it this way... you should have at least one build that works versus every race. Most people believe that they need to use the most standard play to be ahead. I believe this to be wrong. As Terran, a build such as a banshee expand works well vs every race. As Protoss, a 3 gate opening works well. If you scout that the opponent is protoss after, just add a robo, and start building stalkers instead of sentries. You will be in the defensive nature initially, but you still will be fine vs every race. As Zerg, a 14/14 doesn't put you behind (even a terran); it just is sacrificing a little econ for tech. And the tech is needed anyways. It means that your expo will be completely safe to every race. 14/14 does put you behind vs terran. | ||
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LucidityDark
United Kingdom139 Posts
Random cheesers annoy me in the idea that they usually can't play the game any other and thus have to have a random element added, backed by a really powerful all in (cheese) to win games. O fcourse people who do this usually suck at micro and macro and as such shoot themselves in the foot before losing the game due to stupidity. | ||
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coriamon
244 Posts
No it doesn't. Your econ will behind initially, but your expo will be safer for a longer time. (there will be a timing to attack a little earlier if you don't get speed) Therefore, you get more drones, and a higher economy LATER in the game. | ||
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copacetic
56 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 20 2012 05:26 coriamon wrote: No it doesn't. Your econ will behind initially, but your expo will be safer for a longer time. (there will be a timing to attack a little earlier if you don't get speed) Therefore, you get more drones, and a higher economy LATER in the game. You will not hold a good 2 rax with 14/14. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On January 20 2012 05:26 coriamon wrote: No it doesn't. Your econ will behind initially, but your expo will be safer for a longer time. (there will be a timing to attack a little earlier if you don't get speed) Therefore, you get more drones, and a higher economy LATER in the game. This can be argued back and forth endlessly, but in my opinion: - 14 / 14 is valid, but not optimal in ZvZ most of the time (I prefer 11 gas 11 pool 18 baneling nest or 15 hatch 15 gas pool - it gives you slightly faster speed and faster banelings than 14 / 14 and allows you to be the offensive player). - 14 / 14 is valid against X gate expand, but puts you behind vs forge expand. - 14 / 14 simply puts you behind vs terran no matter what they are doing. If they 2 rax, you die. 14 / 14 is a good build to use if you just want to practice one build for each matchup, but it's really not optimal in any matchup I feel. Most valid would be ZvP on a map that's hard to forge expand on. My opinion. | ||
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DoomInASuit
United States23 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On January 20 2012 04:26 LuisFrost wrote: Seriously, WHY CAN'T YOU JUST FUCKING ASK FOR THE RACE I GOT AS RANDOM? I tried announcing it at the start as some people here say, but in return people get MORE paranoid, and therefore start a worse BM than if I just ignore them, "if u say ur race ur not dat race u cheesy random n00b". So, at least for me in the NA ladder it's not a pleasant option. The problem would go away if your race was revealed in the opening screen; I'm OK with that idea. As some people say, TDA is terrible vsR. I used to ask, and when people refused to say, I just left the game and gave them the points. Then I started 6 pooling instead, since most people didn't tell me their race - or lied. So that's why I don't ask any longer and just 6 pool Ideally from my point of view, the race should be announced on the preview screen. On the other hand, I do believe that someone that manage to play all 3 races, deserves the slight advantage being random gives him. | ||
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LuisFrost
Mexico130 Posts
On January 20 2012 05:37 aebriol wrote: I used to ask, and when people refused to say, I just left the game and gave them the points. Then I started 6 pooling instead, since most people didn't tell me their race - or lied. So that's why I don't ask any longer and just 6 pool Ideally from my point of view, the race should be announced on the preview screen. On the other hand, I do believe that someone that manage to play all 3 races, deserves the slight advantage being random gives him. 6pool is a nice option too. I either get toss and lose every time, zerg and lose most of the time or terran and win with one marine. Either way it ends fast. | ||
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Mercy13
United States718 Posts
On January 20 2012 04:26 LuisFrost wrote: Seriously, WHY CAN'T YOU JUST FUCKING ASK FOR THE RACE I GOT AS RANDOM? I tried announcing it at the start as some people here say, but in return people get MORE paranoid, and therefore start a worse BM than if I just ignore them, "if u say ur race ur not dat race u cheesy random n00b". So, at least for me in the NA ladder it's not a pleasant option. The problem would go away if your race was revealed in the opening screen; I'm OK with that idea. As some people say, TDA is terrible vsR. Still, very few people ask for my race and I always tell the truth. Sometimes I play randoms, when they lie about their race you'll find out fast enough to start preparing for something fishy (unless it's TDA, of course). So please guys, I BEG YOU, spread hate against randoms only after you see what happens if you ask for the race. If after that experiment most of us DO turn out to be cheese evil scumbags... well, guess I'll have to start wearing punk hairstyles or something. PD: Until I get my panda decal I won't roll a dice. Sorry for playing the game I paid for in the way I find it the most rewarding. When I am vR I always open with "glhf race?" A couple randoms have told me (and none of them have lied) but the vast majority either ignore me or say something rude. It sucks that people like that who think they deserve a random advantage give players like yourself a bad reputation. I have a TON of respect for random players who are willing to share their race, at least when they are asked. You truly do know how to play all 9 matchups, unlike other randoms who just know RvP, RvT, and RvZ. The rest of you on the other hand.... You deserve the BM you get for abusing the random advantage. It's bad enough when you do some stupid all in that your opponent can't prepare an optimal defense for, but imo it's EVEN WORSE when you use the random advantage to do a greedy econ build because your opponent is trying to blind counter the myriad possible cheeses that many random players prefer. | ||
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copacetic
56 Posts
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eeizbee
Canada19 Posts
You deserve the BM you get for abusing the random advantage. It's bad enough when you do some stupid all in that your opponent can't prepare an optimal defense for, but imo it's EVEN WORSE when you use the random advantage to do a greedy econ build because your opponent is trying to blind counter the myriad possible cheeses that many random players prefer. they deserve more than the BM, unless random players get their race shown on the loading screen they are just talentless noobs that can't play a real game. they get a 3 minute tactical advantage on TDA, maybe a 1 minute or 2 minute advantage on smaller maps. an advantage like that, at the most fragile part in the game (the beginning), in a game as finely balanced as starcraft is a joke. and it isnt just a slight tactical advantage, it is a 100% tactical advantage. | ||
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Prometheas
Canada8 Posts
I played X matches as one race VS He played X/3 matches as the race is currently therefore I will win vs random. Most random players I know have a weak race, and it drags them down. Mine is terran. And most random players I know have way more games played than single race players of the same level, because of their weak race dragging them down. Someone on one of the first few pages also mentioned this but everyone seemed to ignore this. Also most random players I know are the type to be less afraid to damage their ladder ranking by experiementing or trying new things unpracticed on ladder. This hurts ladder ranking and ends up them being matched against weaker players. Moral of my story, don't underestimate them, they might just be, you know, having fun... and maybe they can kick your ass | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On January 20 2012 06:32 Prometheas wrote: Moral of my story, don't underestimate them, they might just be, you know, having fun... and maybe they can kick your ass Oh, most random players I met before I started 6 pooling them every game, were quite good. They just lacked a solid gameplan from 130 - 200 food. Basically, they had really good idea about how to play 1 and 2 base, and maybe 3, but 4-5 base play they were lacking in upgrades and late on really good unit compositions. (that was masters league 4-5 months ago). I died a lot vs random to well thought out and decently executed 2 base all ins though | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 20 2012 06:24 eeizbee wrote: they deserve more than the BM, unless random players get their race shown on the loading screen they are just talentless noobs that can't play a real game. they get a 3 minute tactical advantage on TDA, maybe a 1 minute or 2 minute advantage on smaller maps. an advantage like that, at the most fragile part in the game (the beginning), in a game as finely balanced as starcraft is a joke. and it isnt just a slight tactical advantage, it is a 100% tactical advantage. haha. As someone who plays all 3 races and can easily say that Protoss is by far the easiest race to play, I find the notion of you even attempting to call Random players talentless noobs to be laughable. What? The fact you're forced to scout and react at the start of the game makes it not a real game? The fact that you can't do a gimmicky predetermined build order and have to have a back up game plan makes it not a real game? Here's a hint. 1 gate expand, into fast robo/obs and stay active with your probe scout. You can wall off your nat with your second and third gates instead of a forge if they're zerg and if they're going to 6-7 pool you an early gate is actually a superior defensive build against that. If it's going to be roach ling, you'll be able to hold it with the help of the faster robotics facility. If it's terran? That's a standard opening anyway for a macro game, if it's a protoss? Cancel the nexus and drop 2 more gates. Just because you're terrible at reacting on the fly and you have to go by predetermined build orders doesn't mean it isn't a real game it just means you aren't a real SC2 player you're just a pretender. User was warned for this post | ||
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eeizbee
Canada19 Posts
haha. As someone who plays all 3 races and can easily say that Protoss is by far the easiest race to play, I find the notion of you even attempting to call Random players talentless noobs to be laughable. What? The fact you're forced to scout and react at the start of the game makes it not a real game? The fact that you can't do a gimmicky predetermined build order and have to have a back up game plan makes it not a real game? Here's a hint. 1 gate expand, into fast robo/obs and stay active with your probe scout. You can wall off your nat with your second and third gates instead of a forge if they're zerg and if they're going to 6-7 pool you an early gate is actually a superior defensive build against that. If it's going to be roach ling, you'll be able to hold it with the help of the faster robotics facility. If it's terran? That's a standard opening anyway for a macro game, if it's a protoss? Cancel the nexus and drop 2 more gates. Just because you're terrible at reacting on the fly and you have to go by predetermined build orders doesn't mean it isn't a real game it just means you aren't a real SC2 player you're just a pretender. lol i love how your dissing me for not being able to do a gimicky predetermined build order,when the fact is the random gains the ability to do a gimicky predetermined build order and instead of scouting to figure out what one it is, i just have to guess between the 30 different openers all 3 races have, and hope i havn't screwed up too badly to win by the time i scout. keep justifying being a random fag, i think you literally just came on here to give me shit advice against randoms and hope i believe you. yeah, i'm going to 1 gate expand into robo against randoms, that's some solid fucking advice buddy. you must sell strats to pro's with shit like that just coming off the top of your head. User was warned for this post | ||
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Immutant
Singapore201 Posts
On January 20 2012 06:32 Prometheas wrote: as a random player I would like to point out the flaw of the I played X matches as one race VS He played X/3 matches as the race is currently therefore I will win vs random. Most random players I know have a weak race, and it drags them down. Mine is terran. And most random players I know have way more games played than single race players of the same level, because of their weak race dragging them down. Someone on one of the first few pages also mentioned this but everyone seemed to ignore this. Also most random players I know are the type to be less afraid to damage their ladder ranking by experiementing or trying new things unpracticed on ladder. This hurts ladder ranking and ends up them being matched against weaker players. Moral of my story, don't underestimate them, they might just be, you know, having fun... and maybe they can kick your ass QTF I have 2 normal race (P and T) and a "strong" race Z, which is probably above the league I play in. I also don't care much about ladder ranking. Once in Season 3, I was cheesed from plat to silver. All I did was laugh and adapted a safer playstyle and was back in plat again. I also don't always play random. When my T was the weakest race, I switched to T to practise, and once accumulated 10+ straight losses figuring out the sky terran's BO (most ppl would do it in custom games?) and timings. Those who stick with 1 race (probably because it's easier to improve with 1 race) have a different mindset (I want to raise my ranking) thus the random hate/fear. There are also people who abuse the random early game adv and cheese and that does not help. | ||
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RyLai
United States477 Posts
On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote: Hi everyone. I personally dislike when i'm against a random player. Because i just can't do an usual opening. In addition, many random players just cheese/all-in (i don't know why). I encounter very few random players on the ladder, but they all all-in. So when i'm facing a random player, i just go 7RR or 6pool. And i feel like "what a useless game ...". Yesterday, i did a 7RR and the random player was 6 pooling. 6 pool VS 7RR, what a game ^^ How do you play against random players on the ladder ? Don't go around generalizing like that. It's a very bad habit to get into. While it's true that about half the randoms out there DO do some sort of cheese or all in, the others strive for a macro game almost every damn time (except maybe as Protoss or in ZvZ). You can say the same thing about Zergs, Protosses, and Terrans out there (actually, you can just say now that Terrans open Reactor Hellions, then do a VERY fucking retarded 1 base timing push behind it). Back when I played random and got another random, I usually went for the "safe" build, which is 14 gas 14 pool, then cried when I saw they were Terran or a Zerg that opened Hatch first. But since then, I've heard a pro (I think it was EG.Machine, don't quote me on that) said that you might as well open 15 Hatch against randoms, because there's a 2/3 chance you could get away with it relatively easily, and if it's Protoss then they need to scout you reasonably quickly to do something about it. And from there you pray the Protoss didn't open 1 base and try to fend off cannons as best as you can (though current maps make Chrono Boosted Zealots a little less deadly). I mean, if it's a Z and they opened 6 Pool, that sucks. If it's a Protoss that opens proxy gates, well that sucks. But does it really matter if you knew what race they were when they cheese you that early? They both have basically the same response (anything except a hatch first). If you're really scared, you can still go 14 Pool 16 Hatch (though I still prefer hatch first). I mean, ZvR is better than TvR or PvR. What does Terran go? 1 Rax CC? Open gas and scout early on whether you're going Barracks pressure, Banshees, or Reactor Hellions? Or just say "Fuck it, I'm going Banshees"? Protoss gets screwed into opening 1 base. They die if they early expo improperly in PvP, and die if Terran does the right build order. And if they Forge FE, they're a little screwed against Terran. Zerg is lucky that they have 2 openers that's reasonably strong against all 3 races (though both have a little bit of a gamble to them, but nothing drastic). Protoss definitely doesn't have such a build, and I find Banshees gimmicky vs Zerg (though they DO work). Standard OV scout, and scout on 10 (I get in early in case I want to deny gas on a 1 base Protoss if I ever catch 1). | ||
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RyLai
United States477 Posts
On January 20 2012 07:17 Vindicare605 wrote: haha. As someone who plays all 3 races and can easily say that Protoss is by far the easiest race to play, I find the notion of you even attempting to call Random players talentless noobs to be laughable. What? The fact you're forced to scout and react at the start of the game makes it not a real game? The fact that you can't do a gimmicky predetermined build order and have to have a back up game plan makes it not a real game? Here's a hint. 1 gate expand, into fast robo/obs and stay active with your probe scout. You can wall off your nat with your second and third gates instead of a forge if they're zerg and if they're going to 6-7 pool you an early gate is actually a superior defensive build against that. If it's going to be roach ling, you'll be able to hold it with the help of the faster robotics facility. If it's terran? That's a standard opening anyway for a macro game, if it's a protoss? Cancel the nexus and drop 2 more gates. Just because you're terrible at reacting on the fly and you have to go by predetermined build orders doesn't mean it isn't a real game it just means you aren't a real SC2 player you're just a pretender. User was warned for this post You can't say which race is the easiest to play due to differences in mechanics and mindsets to play each race. Zerg is my worst race simply because you require mechanical restraint. And for someone like me who normally macroes on cues that DON'T include the resources in the top right gets screwed over when he's just constantly spamming 8sd every few seconds while controlling my army (I use 8 for all Hatcheries and CCs). As a result, I often get supply blocked (getting better at watching my supply now) and because of the fact that I like to be greedy and constantly make workers, I get caught by MANY VERY DUMB all ins. I'll die with 60+ Drones at the 10 minute mark. But as Terran, it's so much easier for me as I just go through my building hotkeys to make sure they're making something, and if I have idle SCVs, it more often than not means I need to make a Supply Depot. As Protoss, it's similar in that I just keep going 8eeee for Probes, and I can't really overmake either Probes or SCVs. Then I'll get Gateways (which are the hardest for me to keep up in macro with), which basically means I have a general timing/cycle to produce units to be safe. And I'm much more comfortable BUILDING Supply Buildings than a Supply UNIT that could've been a harvester or an offensive unit, so even if I don't have idle Probes, I'm more on top of my macro as Protoss. I also pay MUCH MORE ATTENTION to Protoss and Terran upgrades because they require a building to unlock the +2 and +3. And that building takes little time to make. Protoss is NOT by far the easiest to play. For YOU it may be, but for others it's not (most will probably say Terran since it's easy to be a mechanical zombie and end up with a ton of units because all you really need to adjust is what production buildings you have). Just because I think Zerg is the hardest doesn't necessarily mean it's the hardest race either. People who have a good cue for when to stop droning and when to make overlords will do MUCH better than I do (wouldn't hurt if overlords had better movement speed so you could actually scout a fucking Terran's base if they opened Hellions). Then there will be people who thinks Protoss is the hardest race. Not only might players have difficulty in the macro aspects of a race, but also the micro aspects. Since I normally play Terran now, I'm used to setting up a army spread, which helps a lot when having Roaches defend or getting into ZvZ ling battles. But for Protoss, you generally sit in a ball and use spells to control the fight (Force Fields, Psi Storms, Guardian Shield, Feedback). As Terran, you Stim small packs of units to pick off enemy units or harass expansions. And when using Tanks, you generally want to be preset in a defensive position and have the enemy come to you. To be caught in the middle of the map unsieged more often than not means an instant loss. A player who overcommits to being Seiged as Terran ends up being REALLY slow and applying almost no pressure, but a Terran who rushes in dies. A Protoss who can't accurately cast their spells dies in the midgame to a likely superior force of units. A Zerg who can't control his army properly looks like he's sending units in a line to die. Each race is meant to be played in a different way. Some people are naturally comfortable playing one style over another, which is why they play a race that other people may call them an idiot for playing. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
Funny thing is, I once found a proxy-hatch when I scouted for proxy pylons. So if he rolled Zerg, I wouldn't have seen it. MAGIC! | ||
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
Zerg shouldn't have this problem. You can always 14pool 14gas in any matchup, you aren't that much behind anyway. While it may seem like random has this advantage, they very likely aren't as good in knowing the details of buildorders and such. Playing triple matchups is a pain. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 20 2012 05:12 Squigly wrote: You dont HAVE to learn more builds. You choose to as your play R. You should not need to learn more than 1 build for BO1 format. Why2, why not 3? If 3 why not 4. You see my point. Is it literally you think T need a TvR specific build is safe. Playing TvR builds will always put you behind a R if they get the lucky race, and never ahead. Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? You don't have to learn a single build for all I care, that took me into masters. My point is that T can do all kinds of builds, and still not be behind, no matter what race the T is facing. You can go gas, you can 1rax fe, you can double gas. You can do everything as T, and you will never be behind after you scouted the randoms race, as long as you are comfortable playing different builds. If you are not comfortable playing these different ways of terran you don't deserve your win against the random, thats my view. | ||
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wheelchairs
United States145 Posts
I play random and haven't all-ined (unless i caught my opponent being extremely greedy) I play an econ style every race every game. protoss 1 gate expo or Nexus first FFE, zerg 15 hatch, terran 1rax FE. To be honest, i get a fair amount of aggressive all-ins from my opponents when i play random, i dont know if they think they can't open normally, might as well rush, like op was thinking with his 7RR or what, but ive seen many randoms that play macro games. | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
If you are losing to random it is because you are bad at scouting or your build is not safe anyways, not because random really gives people an absolute advantage. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 20 2012 13:54 fighter2_40 wrote: If you think playing random takes no skill.... loool Just try rolling random for a day on ladder and cringe at your ladder points being taken by tasteless. If you are losing to random it is because you are bad at scouting or your build is not safe anyways, not because random really gives people an absolute advantage. Nobody reasonably argued that Random takes no skill. You obviously have to learn 2 more races than the others, hence more matchups, more builds, etc. What some of us complained about is that it restricts your opponent's openings unfairly (as Protoss and a bit as Zerg too) on certain big maps. The "random always cheeses ololol" part is more of a cliché than a truth, really. But fact is: you can't go FFE against random, whereas that would maybe have been your build of choice against Zerg. It's a really weird dynamic, because you claim that random knows all 3 races and stuff, without actually ever facing FFE in ZvP which is THE standard. 1 base openings in PvZ are very different and really require practice to know what you're weak to and when you can pressure, and for example you can't let him get away with a fast third as you would while doing an FFE. All of this combined seriously puts the Random at a big advantage here, because he plays ZvP statistically 1 out of 9 times, but the Protoss actually practiced 0 time his 3 gate expand, 1 gate expand or 1 gate stargate play since he found out about FFE. You could argue that he has to take the possibility of playing Random Zerg into account, but that's certainly not a 1/9 chance on ladder, so it's not really worth changing completely your style if you're not comfortable with that. And I'm not talking for me here, I actually love gateway expands in PvZ even at master level. (What I have trouble with however is proxies and cannon rushes in PvP when you built at your ramp, those are hard to defend). | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 20 2012 13:09 kyllinghest wrote: You don't have to learn a single build for all I care, that took me into masters. My point is that T can do all kinds of builds, and still not be behind, no matter what race the T is facing. You can go gas, you can 1rax fe, you can double gas. You can do everything as T, and you will never be behind after you scouted the randoms race, as long as you are comfortable playing different builds. If you are not comfortable playing these different ways of terran you don't deserve your win against the random, thats my view. Nice that you ignored that majority of my post :/ Also, thats just a lie. You seem to think T has a magical ability to never be behind depending on what opener they do. Yes, you can 1 rax FE in every MU. However goin double gas against a 1 gate expo from a R rolling P is kinda all in etc. If you dont mind scouting and transitioning into a 1 base timing then yes, your flexible. Again ill ask: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25071 Posts
PvP on the other hand is a ruined matchup in vRandom scenarios. I do win a fair few because some of the guys I play look weak playing as Toss, but on the other hand if their strongest/main race is Toss it's very difficult. I've lost many a 4gate war on Tal'Darim because they've opened 11 gate and I've opened 12 gate, the margins are really fine in the matchup. | ||
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Pamposek
Czech Republic56 Posts
And as most of people wrote - just scout sooner and you are ok or do safe build. Playing against random gives us something fresh ... you need to think in game, not just do mindless build until xx:xx. Z is my race and it's how i play Z anyway, so against random is no difference. | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On January 20 2012 11:05 RyLai wrote: You can't say which race is the easiest to play due to differences in mechanics and mindsets to play each race. Zerg is my worst race simply because you require mechanical restraint. And for someone like me who normally macroes on cues that DON'T include the resources in the top right gets screwed over when he's just constantly spamming 8sd every few seconds while controlling my army (I use 8 for all Hatcheries and CCs). As a result, I often get supply blocked (getting better at watching my supply now) and because of the fact that I like to be greedy and constantly make workers, I get caught by MANY VERY DUMB all ins. I'll die with 60+ Drones at the 10 minute mark. But as Terran, it's so much easier for me as I just go through my building hotkeys to make sure they're making something, and if I have idle SCVs, it more often than not means I need to make a Supply Depot. As Protoss, it's similar in that I just keep going 8eeee for Probes, and I can't really overmake either Probes or SCVs. Then I'll get Gateways (which are the hardest for me to keep up in macro with), which basically means I have a general timing/cycle to produce units to be safe. And I'm much more comfortable BUILDING Supply Buildings than a Supply UNIT that could've been a harvester or an offensive unit, so even if I don't have idle Probes, I'm more on top of my macro as Protoss. I also pay MUCH MORE ATTENTION to Protoss and Terran upgrades because they require a building to unlock the +2 and +3. And that building takes little time to make. Protoss is NOT by far the easiest to play. For YOU it may be, but for others it's not (most will probably say Terran since it's easy to be a mechanical zombie and end up with a ton of units because all you really need to adjust is what production buildings you have). Just because I think Zerg is the hardest doesn't necessarily mean it's the hardest race either. People who have a good cue for when to stop droning and when to make overlords will do MUCH better than I do (wouldn't hurt if overlords had better movement speed so you could actually scout a fucking Terran's base if they opened Hellions). Then there will be people who thinks Protoss is the hardest race. Not only might players have difficulty in the macro aspects of a race, but also the micro aspects. Since I normally play Terran now, I'm used to setting up a army spread, which helps a lot when having Roaches defend or getting into ZvZ ling battles. But for Protoss, you generally sit in a ball and use spells to control the fight (Force Fields, Psi Storms, Guardian Shield, Feedback). As Terran, you Stim small packs of units to pick off enemy units or harass expansions. And when using Tanks, you generally want to be preset in a defensive position and have the enemy come to you. To be caught in the middle of the map unsieged more often than not means an instant loss. A player who overcommits to being Seiged as Terran ends up being REALLY slow and applying almost no pressure, but a Terran who rushes in dies. A Protoss who can't accurately cast their spells dies in the midgame to a likely superior force of units. A Zerg who can't control his army properly looks like he's sending units in a line to die. Each race is meant to be played in a different way. Some people are naturally comfortable playing one style over another, which is why they play a race that other people may call them an idiot for playing. What a big pile of non-sense :D Your argument to why Zerg is hard to macro is that you don't have cues? Did you ever questioned what "good" marco is? Thats why ppl say Toss is easy to marco at lower tiers: production cues and chrono boosts. Toss has two mechanics of T and Z combined: They have a wave-like unit production and a cue-able worker production. wave-like unit production helps a lot after using big chunks of units and it is way easier to determine how many production builings you need. Cueing workers is easier yea, because you can cue " also pay MUCH MORE ATTENTION to Protoss and Terran upgrades because they require a building to unlock the +2 and +3. And that building takes little time to make." Wtf? So Zerg needs what to unlock +3? Right ... TWO buildings. Great argument you got there. You can't "overmake" workers? Erm ... but you actually do know that every worker in the cue which is not canceled is build? And that cueing stuff will bind your money to the cue as long as you don't cancel. And the cueing doesn't make your macro look better cause you have less money? Edit on the spellcaster part: the only thing which you mention is aim. To even compare stim to things like ff is not really viable. What about blink <-> stim? You blink all your stalkers or just a few to pick of stuff? Forcefield <-> fungal <-> emp, what makes anything of that different? Nothing really, just aim. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 20 2012 21:51 Pamposek wrote: I don't play random, but for all who thinks, that race should be known on loading screen - what reason then will be playing random and not choosing race before the game? None really. And as most of people wrote - just scout sooner and you are ok or do safe build. Playing against random gives us something fresh ... you need to think in game, not just do mindless build until xx:xx. Z is my race and it's how i play Z anyway, so against random is no difference. The general argument for random to exist and not to be removed completely, is that people like to be able to play all 3 races and have it picked for them. The non cheesy randoms generally say they dont play R for the automatic advantage they get, but for the fun of it. So loading screen race would solve it. | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On January 20 2012 22:42 Squigly wrote: The general argument for random to exist and not to be removed completely, is that people like to be able to play all 3 races and have it picked for them. The non cheesy randoms generally say they dont play R for the automatic advantage they get, but for the fun of it. So loading screen race would solve it. So maybe we should also tell the player on which start position you will spawn. And what about removing the fog of war? And maybe be able to devote races you will matched against. Guys ... really? Why is it so hard to accept that someone who takes a BIG disadvantage (playing races he is not the best at) that this someone is getting a SMALL advantage by not-knowing (of the enemy) as which race you spawned. So many guys take ladder WAY too serious. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 20 2012 23:38 bluQ wrote: So maybe we should also tell the player on which start position you will spawn. And what about removing the fog of war? And maybe be able to devote races you will matched against. Guys ... really? Why is it so hard to accept that someone who takes a BIG disadvantage (playing races he is not the best at) that this someone is getting a SMALL advantage by not-knowing (of the enemy) as which race you spawned. So many guys take ladder WAY too serious. To go in the complete opposite direction of your first argument, why not play with all buildings cloaked or something? It's a completely ridiculous argument, in a fair game, it's not about the absolute information a player has, it's about the information he has COMPARED TO his opponent. To both players, at the start of the game, spawning locations are unknown and fog of war is activated, so it's fair. However, when you face a Random, he knows your race but you don't know his. That's different relative information, so it's unfair. Simple as that. BUT...it's also unfair that you have to know more stuff about the game as a random player, in a way, but at least you chose to play with that disadvantage every single one of your ladder games, we didn't choose to be completely in the dark right at the loading screen. | ||
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Mercy13
United States718 Posts
On January 20 2012 23:38 bluQ wrote: So maybe we should also tell the player on which start position you will spawn. And what about removing the fog of war? And maybe be able to devote races you will matched against. Guys ... really? Why is it so hard to accept that someone who takes a BIG disadvantage (playing races he is not the best at) that this someone is getting a SMALL advantage by not-knowing (of the enemy) as which race you spawned. So many guys take ladder WAY too serious. Now you're just spouting nonsense... neither player knows where the other spawned so there is no information advantage, unlike when one player is random and the other isn't. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 20 2012 23:38 bluQ wrote: So maybe we should also tell the player on which start position you will spawn. And what about removing the fog of war? And maybe be able to devote races you will matched against. Guys ... really? Why is it so hard to accept that someone who takes a BIG disadvantage (playing races he is not the best at) that this someone is getting a SMALL advantage by not-knowing (of the enemy) as which race you spawned. So many guys take ladder WAY too serious. I feel everyone has already pointed out how absurd this comment is so i wont go into detail. I will address the point about them having a BIG disadvantage. Noone has yet to answer my question here: Two people of equal skill with terran are playing a TvT. One got there by rolling T from R, the other from picking T. Even though there is equal skill (assume exactly equal) the R player will win . Is this really fair? This seems to have gone off topic. As T just 1 rax expo vs R and hold the cheese. As P id suggest 3 gate expo, and as Z 14/14. Z has the hardest time as on small maps 1/3 your kinda fucked when they get T. On 2 player maps just scout super early. I dont see a random rolling T losing if they proxy 2 rax on shak though if not scouted first. Just seems like auto win for the R 50/50, and probably win the other half. | ||
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Magus.421
France159 Posts
I dont see a random rolling T losing if they proxy 2 rax on shak though if not scouted first. Just seems like auto win for the R 50/50, and probably win the other half. That's the main problem and many random players just abuse of this. That's why i always cheese / all-in against random players. It's bad for "fair random players", but i can't guess sorry :D | ||
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copacetic
56 Posts
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Mercy13
United States718 Posts
On January 21 2012 03:36 copacetic wrote: ok you guys keep ignoring the easiest solution to all your rage (scouting early) im sure raging out instead of scouting early will help you win vs Random players. And that helps not at all on large 4 player maps, and even when you find them you will be behind ~ 100 min or so from sending such an early scout. That's a big deal in the early game, especially for the mirror matchups. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
build order loss? oh well, no biggie. move on to next game. if i really dont want to loss, i 14pool. (holding early pool is no biggie with drones) wall as terran and protoss. the build is standard up to the scouting point. (i wall only against zerg but wall just in case random is zerg. i'll worry about that first then worry about potential loss of buildings from later pressure) early scout doesn't cause win/loss due to less minerals. and over all, non-random naturally has the advantage due to match up experience. though i must say, one race may be their weakest while another is their best. if the gap is big enough, randomer's strong race can roll over their opponent of same level because the mmr is dragged by their weak race. i think people are making vs random a bigger problem than it actually is :/ getting cheesed? i dont think race matters. what matters is how you react when you see it. from my experience though, rvr is a rare occurrence. | ||
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flyingbangus
United States121 Posts
I do see how it *can* be annoying as protoss going against random when it comes to the first pylon's placement. | ||
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Kryptonite333
42 Posts
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TheToaster
United States280 Posts
Below Platinum, I would consider any random player a cheeser or someone who just wants to go "fun" builds. This means anything like cloaked Banshees, Baneling busts, mass Marines with 7 Rax, or anything of that nature. Not necessarily cheese, but still builds that never last past the 10 minute mark. I would suggest playing defensive in these circumstances and hold off anything they throw at you. Because normally, the random players in these leagues probably have no idea what they are actually doing. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 21 2012 03:36 copacetic wrote: ok you guys keep ignoring the easiest solution to all your rage (scouting early) im sure raging out instead of scouting early will help you win vs Random players. If I were to scout before 9 pylon, might as well proxy some shit in the random's base. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 20 2012 20:56 Squigly wrote: Nice that you ignored that majority of my post :/ Also, thats just a lie. You seem to think T has a magical ability to never be behind depending on what opener they do. Yes, you can 1 rax FE in every MU. However goin double gas against a 1 gate expo from a R rolling P is kinda all in etc. If you dont mind scouting and transitioning into a 1 base timing then yes, your flexible. Again ill ask: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? Well, don't you think you can pull of the win if you double gas vs the 1 gate expoing protoss? Im no pro gamer, but I am a masters terran, and my experience is that all kinds of builds is viable in all T-matchups. Double gas before expo works in all matchups, but you have to do damage obviously. If you don't wanna go all in, just don't double gas. Thats how terran work, you're not behind before you bungle your attack/harrass. Also I have said at least three times in this thread that I support the idea of revealing your race on the loading screen, however I don't think you are ever in an uncomfortable situation as T versus R, unless you put yourself in that uncomfortable spot. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25071 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:02 jeeneeus wrote: What really annoys me about this argument is how silly and selfish it is. So you lose like 5 minerals. If you're scouting after pylon, which you should, you should most likely find out what race he is, and if not zerg you can build the other buildings behind. You'll eventually need a pylon near the ramp for emergency warp ins so that's not a big deal. Also yes it's kind of annoying to not be able to FFE if you're against zerg, but I honestly don't think 1 gate expand/3 gate expand isn't too bad compared to FFE (The zerg can not take a fast third against 1 gate or 3 gate). You know what the random player has to deal with? Learning triple the amount of races and match ups. Do you have any idea how much more difficult it is to learn everything there is to know about all the races and match ups? It's not like the match ups are similar enough that things like build order and timings are the same. You know how different pvz, pvp, and pvt feel? Now try adding six more different things to that. But I'm sorry random inconveniences you into losing some mining time. The problem is gateway expand is not competitive against Zerg, and on some maps it's not even a viable opening. What do you do as Protoss against Random on TDA? You guess their race and lose if you guess wrong, because there's no ramp to defend with a gateway expand. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 21 2012 11:55 Xequecal wrote: The problem is gateway expand is not competitive against Zerg, and on some maps it's not even a viable opening. What do you do as Protoss against Random on TDA? You guess their race and lose if you guess wrong, because there's no ramp to defend with a gateway expand. Pretty sure I've seen gateway expands dominate grandmaster pvz's and GSL pvz's before without being all ins. It's a completely viable opener. FFE is not the only way to play PvZ even if it's the most popular. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 21 2012 12:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Pretty sure I've seen gateway expands dominate grandmaster pvz's and GSL pvz's before without being all ins. It's a completely viable opener. FFE is not the only way to play PvZ even if it's the most popular. Please share with me the GSL PvZ's with gateway openings on TDA (honest request, I don't remember any :D). | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On January 21 2012 12:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Pretty sure I've seen gateway expands dominate grandmaster pvz's and GSL pvz's before without being all ins. It's a completely viable opener. FFE is not the only way to play PvZ even if it's the most popular. Gateway expand is what you do when you have to, when the map is hostile to FFE. It puts you significantly behind against Zerg. Also on TDA there is no ramp. Gateway expanding against Zerg on this map is suicide. When I get Random on TDA I just 15 nexus, if opponent is Protoss I'm dead but it's good against Terran and Zerg. There's no better way to do it, if you do a gate opening against Zerg on this map you just outright lose. | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On January 18 2012 20:30 EndOfLine wrote: 9 Drone scout - then play normally. Do this. If you don't scout that he is Terran before 14 supply, go 14/14 then expand on 20. Your standard speedling expand that you use in ZvP. That's just me. I nearly always 14/14 vs P and Z, and hatch first vs. T. You don't have to. Early scout is important. Random players are much more likely to cheese because the have the advantage hiding their race for a while. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On January 21 2012 13:11 ZenithM wrote: Please share with me the GSL PvZ's with gateway openings on TDA (honest request, I don't remember any :D). TDA is a bit of an anamoly of a map for Protoss, but I have seen Gateway expands work on it, although they typically involve some kind of heavy timing attack. If the only argument here for Protoss is TDA, (which if I scan this thread every Protoss argument here against Randoms specifically involves TDA) then I think the problem here isn't with the Randoms it's with the map. I know at least 5 different Protoss players that have TDA vetoed because of PvZ and PvP on it, if Protoss was my main race I'd have it vetoed also. Gateway expand is what you do when you have to, when the map is hostile to FFE. It puts you significantly behind against Zerg. Also on TDA there is no ramp. Gateway expanding against Zerg on this map is suicide. The exact same argument can be made here involving Hellion expands for Terran and it's also not true. The fact is, FFE is the most popular way to play on TDA but the thing is every Zerg already knows that and oftentimes will play off of that knowledge just like they do with Hellion expands. When I play Zerg on TDA, against Protoss I feel completely encouraged to play extra greedy because pressure from the Protoss player is almost non-existant in the opening minutes. What that means for you the Protoss player is that a gateway expand can completely throw a zerg off their game on this map because they are so comfortable playing against FFE's on that map because that's all they ever face. Honestly, I think it might just be the fact that I play random, but I do not share the view that matchups are balanced around 1-2 specific openers. I think that's a player comfort thing rather than a product of actual game balance. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 21 2012 11:16 kyllinghest wrote: Well, don't you think you can pull of the win if you double gas vs the 1 gate expoing protoss? Im no pro gamer, but I am a masters terran, and my experience is that all kinds of builds is viable in all T-matchups. Double gas before expo works in all matchups, but you have to do damage obviously. If you don't wanna go all in, just don't double gas. Thats how terran work, you're not behind before you bungle your attack/harrass. Also I have said at least three times in this thread that I support the idea of revealing your race on the loading screen, however I don't think you are ever in an uncomfortable situation as T versus R, unless you put yourself in that uncomfortable spot. Still not answering my simple question: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? Whats wrong with this logic. | ||
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ETisME
12385 Posts
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FridgeLogic
Austria19 Posts
Playing random, I rarely get cheesed - most people seem to be reluctant to cheese if they don't know which race they're up against. That aside, I would be ok if my race would be visible to my opponent, although this would mean having to learn how to deal with every kind of cheese in all the matchups. At least playing random reminds me that the grass usually isn't greener on the other side, concerning races | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
I'm not going to learn anything playing against random because I won't get to play any of my standard openings so I might as well just cheese. Similarly, I don't get the point of playing random, no one is going to play standard against you, so you're really not learning any of the matchups. If you want to play all three races, do it like day[9] for example, by picking a race at random before clicking start. If you're in to gaining ladder points and just practise 1 cheese/all-in build with each race (as most randoms do), then taking random is fine I guess, just don't expect good games from your opponents. | ||
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RabidSeagull
United States220 Posts
On January 23 2012 03:30 FridgeLogic wrote: It's really funny. One of the reasons for me to start playing random is that I was sick of all the cheese that I encountered on ladder from all kinds of players, randoms or racepickers regardless. Playing random, I rarely get cheesed - most people seem to be reluctant to cheese if they don't know which race they're up against. That aside, I would be ok if my race would be visible to my opponent, although this would mean having to learn how to deal with every kind of cheese in all the matchups. At least playing random reminds me that the grass usually isn't greener on the other side, concerning races Whenever I'm dicking around with Random I always let my opponent know which race I spawn as, it's on them to trust you or not. If you're ok with your race being visible to them at the start just type in which you spawned as 'gl hf i'm T' etc. As to the thread as a whole, playing against Random is actually pretty annoying because they get the surprise advantage simply for picking random. I definitely play safer against random, scout on pylon (9) for sure, no nexus first, do those type of things and react to what you scout and it shouldn't be too big of a deal | ||
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Ronski
Finland266 Posts
If protoss I take fast 3rd against nexus 1st or forge fast expand. against terran I take macro hatch in my base and play safe against all possible drops and harasses with spines at front and lings inbase. against zerg, I make lings without speed and tech straight to roaches and play defensively while teching to mutalisks as fast as the game allows me to. | ||
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justalex
United States122 Posts
On January 23 2012 03:44 RabidSeagull wrote:As to the thread as a whole, playing against Random is actually pretty annoying because they get the surprise advantage simply for picking random. I definitely play safer against random, scout on pylon (9) for sure, no nexus first, do those type of things and react to what you scout and it shouldn't be too big of a deal I wish I played more players like you on the ladder. Since switching to random i've faced more 1 base all-ins than when I chose my race. Heck, i won a game a few days ago because my opponent went 11/13 rax, then quit when he discovered I spawned terran. As for the surprise advantage, I really feel that it's mitigated by the fact that random players have to know all 9 matchups well enough to take advantage of it. Maybe I eek out a minor advantage with T or Z (my stronger races), but all it really buys my P matches is a little bit of leeway in my opening. Ah well, I'll put up with hate and 1 base all ins if it means more delicious portraits. | ||
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Ashent
Korea (South)109 Posts
Sorry R's though, it's true that when we play you on the ladder it's nothing but cheese and 2base all-ins. I understand why, and I'm not necessarily mad about it, but it does force me to 4gate a lot - especially on Tal'Darim as mentioned earlier in the thread. If I'm not already planning on 4gate vs R and I scout a protoss last on Tal'Darim who obviously 10gated, I'm hosed. So you're getting k4g'd by default. | ||
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Puckvalan
1 Post
On January 23 2012 02:47 Squigly wrote: Still not answering my simple question: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? Whats wrong with this logic. In reply to your simple question: You are right, if skill is completely even, Random will win (not always ofc, but statistically). However: the MMR is determined taking into account this random advantage! i.e.: you will be (very slightly) better than the random player you face, with the random advantage to bridge this very slight skill gap. Meaning that on the ladder atleast, this advantage is compensated by the MMR. Another issue: people seem to assume they will be better than a random player. This is NOT true.The random's MMR is averaged over 3 races, meaning his best race is probably better than you, while his worst race may be significantly worse (my terran is atricious). | ||
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priestnoob
243 Posts
On January 23 2012 19:42 Puckvalan wrote: In reply to your simple question: You are right, if skill is completely even, Random will win (not always ofc, but statistically). However: the MMR is determined taking into account this random advantage! i.e.: you will be (very slightly) better than the random player you face, with the random advantage to bridge this very slight skill gap. Meaning that on the ladder atleast, this advantage is compensated by the MMR. Another issue: people seem to assume they will be better than a random player. This is NOT true.The random's MMR is averaged over 3 races, meaning his best race is probably better than you, while his worst race may be significantly worse (my terran is atricious). You are right. As a random, I win 95% of my P and Z games 30% of my T(note that the numbers might change as I haven't played for a while and it appears like my MMR dropped a lot). | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 23 2012 19:42 Puckvalan wrote: In reply to your simple question: You are right, if skill is completely even, Random will win (not always ofc, but statistically). However: the MMR is determined taking into account this random advantage! i.e.: you will be (very slightly) better than the random player you face, with the random advantage to bridge this very slight skill gap. Meaning that on the ladder atleast, this advantage is compensated by the MMR. Another issue: people seem to assume they will be better than a random player. This is NOT true.The random's MMR is averaged over 3 races, meaning his best race is probably better than you, while his worst race may be significantly worse (my terran is atricious). We assume that we'll be better than the random player because he's most of the time a cheeser, that's all there is to it. If he's not, then you're probably right. | ||
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Pucca
Taiwan1280 Posts
I have opened with pool before 15 hatch. When I play randoms is that not the safest / universal BO? | ||
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
On December 26 2012 14:03 Pucca wrote: I'm a silver league Zerg still trying to wrap my head against random players online. My main issue is ZvZ. Already my weakest matchup and I have come to understand a bit more build order based? If true, how am I supposed to defend the early onslaught of my opponent because ZvZ is so fast paced? I have opened with pool before 15 hatch. When I play randoms is that not the safest / universal BO? 14 pool 15 hatch is the safest eco build, obviosly the safest build would be 10 pool but that isnt really an eco build. | ||
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Pucca
Taiwan1280 Posts
On December 26 2012 14:12 X3GoldDot wrote: 14 pool 15 hatch is the safest eco build, obviosly the safest build would be 10 pool but that isnt really an eco build. How bad of position would I be in if I did that every random? | ||
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Loire
Singapore1358 Posts
On December 26 2012 14:21 Pucca wrote: How bad of position would I be in if I did that every random? You'd be fine vs protoss and most zergs, however versus terran it is not the most optimal opener | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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decado90
United States480 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
On December 26 2012 14:24 Sated wrote: Wouldn't the safest eco build be a Speedling Expand..? Speedling expand is on the wrong side of a build order disadvantage against a correctly executed FFE or various terran plays, and will rarely if ever get you ahead to make up for that. | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
if your zerg just 14 pool. It work against every race. If your terran just rax expand or scout after depot. If your toss scout after pylon. It can even be low ground on some maps like ohana. In base forge works for FFE. Also, at least speaking for myself I always tell the opponent my race if they ask in the beginning of the game. As for people saying that they don't want to do any of these builds because they feel at a disadvantage economically, just deal with it. These are not greedy builds, they are just standard safe. You don't lose the game because you open 14 pool instead of 15 hatch or open barracks instead of cc first or have to make your forge in the main and expand a little more carefully. JUST DEAL WITH IT. if you lose it's because you actually are a worse player. Many pros open with these builds that i've mentioned even when they know the opponents race because it's just the safest way to play and they feel confident in their abilities. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On December 26 2012 14:33 decado90 wrote: I just leave vs random, or proxy 2 rax. No point really. Asking for their race works more often then not if your not a dick about it. Last couple of months I can only think 2-3 times someone was quite or just bm'ed me at the question and 1 that lied, and at least 10 randoms that told me what they were. | ||
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Insomni7
667 Posts
A 15 pool 15/16 hatch is a safe build vs. all three races no matter what they are doing. I normally scout on 13 as well unless I see another overlord or scouting worker with my overlord which tell me that I don't have to. Against terran I usually scout anyway so I would just keep going. I did find while I was ranking up that any random player diamond and below just cheesed me. However you should just consider it an opportunity to test how sound your builds are against stuff like that. Don't try to cheese back ^.^ | ||
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Tailss
Sweden233 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Otherwise I'll simply send an early SCV scout and keep a closer eye on it than usual in case it comes across the enemy scouting worker. Worst case scenario, it's a 4 player map and I don't spot him/her until I get to the last spawn position. In that case I usually go for the most versatile/adaptable build, something around a 1-1-1. One option is that you specifically pick a build for when going up against random players. A build that would be equally effective against all three races without being extremely risks. As Terran, any 2rax or 1-1-1 build could probably fill this role. Should you scout the opponent early enough or he/she tells you his/her race, you can always adjust. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Against Toss, 14/14 is safe and standard. Against Zerg 14/14 also works. So as Zerg the only time Random screws you up is when they are Terran, because you have to 14/14 when you'd otherwise go Hatch first. Use the earlier pool to apply some pressure early and throw off the Random player. It shouldn't be too bad. 14/14 should hold most cheese if you scout it. As Protoss, I hate playing vs. Random when they spawn Zerg, because I can't FFE. So now I just do an aggressive gate expand and make do. vP and vT I'm fine. | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
On December 26 2012 14:22 Loire wrote: You'd be fine vs protoss and most zergs, however versus terran it is not the most optimal opener I tend to disagree, while its not the most 'optimal' opener economic wise, many many top zerg players like to open 10 pool vs terran (especially life). and if they are walled out of the terran base they still do quite well with the build, so while its not 'optimal' its still solid and a perfectly fine way to play. | ||
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NuclearStar
United Kingdom57 Posts
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m0nt
Australia80 Posts
I used to open with a 13 gate and if they were zerg id just leave the game haha. But now I just scout on 9 or earlier on large 4 player maps and hold out on making my first gate or forge until i see what they are. I dont understand why anyone would want to play random or why its even an option all it seems to do is make the game worse for everyone trying to take it half seriously. | ||
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Daitro
England31 Posts
Zerg: 14 pool 16 hatch while scouting Protoss: gate-gas-core while scouting Terran 1 rax FE while scouting I feel like the only people who suck vs random just blindly copy their build and have no idea how to adapt if the game plays out differently. Playing vs a random player is a huge advantage. | ||
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SnePe
Sweden14 Posts
On December 26 2012 21:06 m0nt wrote: Playing against random as protoss is just the worst thing lol, really happy there's not many random players once you get out of platinum. I used to open with a 13 gate and if they were zerg id just leave the game haha. But now I just scout on 9 or earlier on large 4 player maps and hold out on making my first gate or forge until i see what they are. I dont understand why anyone would want to play random or why its even an option all it seems to do is make the game worse for everyone trying to take it half seriously. Random should ofcouse be an option but the race should be displayed at the loading screen in my oppinion. That way you can still get to play random but with no "unfair" advantage. On December 26 2012 21:15 Daitro wrote: how do people find this a problem? Zerg: 14 pool 16 hatch while scouting Protoss: gate-gas-core while scouting Terran 1 rax FE while scouting I feel like the only people who suck vs random just blindly copy their build and have no idea how to adapt if the game plays out differently. Playing vs a random player is a huge advantage. gate-gas-core vs zerg can put you in a lot of trouble. The reason it works in PvZ is because zergs assume you'll go Nexus first into forge or FFE. If a Zerg knows you'd do a gate expand, there are so many ways they can delay your expansion. Around 20 or so slow lings will force you to go 3 gate exp or all in. Sure they lose some early economy but can quickly get atleast even. If you tried to 1 gate exp and failed you are quite far behind. If you did 3 gate exp or 2 gate exp you will end up even but then you are in same trouble you were in 1,5 years ago when doing gate expansions. PvR and R turns out to be Z, you bascially start with a disadvantage and just have to pray your opponent makes lots of misstakes. Most randomers I play try to play a game that would resemble a "normal" game though. That is, they play without abusing their advantage in knowledge too much and thats another reason why gate exps tend to work. It is up to your opponent if the game is just a huge waste of time or an actual game though. Could be a non-issue if the randomers race was just shown at the loading screen. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
From there, you can obviously plant down the 15 hatch or the 15pool. | ||
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Daitro
England31 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Also I think it kinda misses the point of playing random... playing random should simply be a shuffle. The advantage of knowing your opponent's race and them not knowing yours should not be in the game. Random should imo be a fun option for people who just want to play every race. I always always always tell people my race at the start when I random because I want the game to be fair from the very beginning. I really don't enjoy it otherwise and I really don't enjoy scouting zerg in the last position on a 4 player map and have 6 lings show up at my base because my opponent was random and gambled, knowing that I wouldn't even know their race. It's just stupid and happens surprisingly often. | ||
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
For your position in your league you need to be consistently good at 2 matchups these people playing random need to Be consistently good at at least 6 match ups to maintain their league position the trade off for them knowing so much is that their race is hidden until you bother to scout it What do I do? I just play safe as a Z go 14/14 if I end up behind? Oh well I'm not at the level where play is perfect so it's a chance for me to learn to look for these opening to pull myself back into the game | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
I always ask what race they were, if they don't reply I just think whatever and play on. To be honest it's only 1 game and any point loss won't effect you too much, just accept the other player treasures their points and move on. | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
On December 26 2012 23:16 Denzil wrote: I don't think you understand how hard it is to successfully play random at whatever league you're playing them at For your position in your league you need to be consistently good at 2 matchups these people playing random need to Be consistently good at at least 6 match ups to maintain their league position the trade off for them knowing so much is that their race is hidden until you bother to scout it What do I do? I just play safe as a Z go 14/14 if I end up behind? Oh well I'm not at the level where play is perfect so it's a chance for me to learn to look for these opening to pull myself back into the game As a zerg I usually open 15 hatch against random, as going a 15 hatch ZvP is only really a problem when protoss is scouting, in which case you would see the probe and know the race. Otherwise I would recommend a 14p/16h build | ||
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DKR
United Kingdom622 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On December 27 2012 00:42 DKR wrote: I can definitely appreciate how playing vs Random isn't too P friendly but I suppose they could practice their all in's? I don't know but the variety provided by random players is definitely welcomed. What does PvR have to do with all ins? | ||
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DKR
United Kingdom622 Posts
On December 27 2012 00:46 DarkLordOlli wrote: What does PvR have to do with all ins? I was saying that the main worries seem to be from protoss players worried about being behind if they get a Zerg player. They could mitigate the worry of this by not attempting to play a macro game. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On December 27 2012 00:51 DKR wrote: I was saying that the main worries seem to be from protoss players worried about being behind if they get a Zerg player. They could mitigate the worry of this by not attempting to play a macro game. Zerg gets a free hatch first, you can't punish that with a gate in the main. You can slightly pressure with zealot + stalker but the fastest attack you can do is a 4gate which zerg will be super ready for by the time it hits. | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On December 26 2012 23:16 Denzil wrote: I don't think you understand how hard it is to successfully play random at whatever league you're playing them at For your position in your league you need to be consistently good at 2 matchups these people playing random need to Be consistently good at at least 6 match ups to maintain their league position the trade off for them knowing so much is that their race is hidden until you bother to scout it What do I do? I just play safe as a Z go 14/14 if I end up behind? Oh well I'm not at the level where play is perfect so it's a chance for me to learn to look for these opening to pull myself back into the game Posts like this do not take into account the mmr system. If you are worth, say, topmaster in all matchup, you will be playing against topmaster Z, P or T who should not be better than you at the match up. Let's say if u play RvZ and end up TvZ, there is no reason to believe that the z is better at zvt than you at tvz. So it makes no sens to "counterbalance" it with an advantage like the fact that you know his race and he does not know ur. Most people do not drone scout in zvt and in topmaster it starts to make a difference when you lose those 100 minerals early game. If he scout you going 1 rax fe, he's behind where he would be if he knew your race from the beggining and didnt drone scout. So, yes, it's an unfair advantage. If you want to play random and learn starcraft the hard way, up to you. But it should'nt mean you get an advantage against people that didnt choose to play vs random. + there is the fact that for protoss, for instance, it mess their build entirely. To know where to position their first pylon, they would have to scout before they place it... If you think it makes any sens in a competitive game where every little bit matter that builds are messed up so hard, I dont know what to add. That's the reason why random is not allowed in tournament. | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On December 27 2012 00:42 DKR wrote: I can definitely appreciate how playing vs Random isn't too P friendly but I suppose they could practice their all in's? I don't know but the variety provided by random players is definitely welcomed. I cant see a master Z losing even 1% of the time to a 4 gate when it will be super obvious there is no nexus (hello overlord that can scout natural on every map). It actually means protoss auto lose to random zergs or have to do super inneficient builds like gate gas cyber into expo. | ||
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DKR
United Kingdom622 Posts
On December 27 2012 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: Zerg gets a free hatch first, you can't punish that with a gate in the main. You can slightly pressure with zealot + stalker but the fastest attack you can do is a 4gate which zerg will be super ready for by the time it hits. There are plenty of directions you can go which have a similar 2 gas 1gate/core opening. You'll see which race you're playing before this point and can adjust dependent upon the race. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On December 27 2012 01:51 DKR wrote: There are plenty of directions you can go which have a similar 2 gas 1gate/core opening. You'll see which race you're playing before this point and can adjust dependent upon the race. Sure but all of them leave you behind vs a hatch first zerg. | ||
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DKR
United Kingdom622 Posts
On December 27 2012 02:06 DarkLordOlli wrote: Sure but all of them leave you behind vs a hatch first zerg. Personally I feel like they provide P with ample opportunity to punish that kind of greed, but I guess we'll agree to disagree. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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DashedHopes
Canada414 Posts
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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Priidrik
Estonia33 Posts
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
Zerg - 15 pool vs all unless you are on 2player map and can scout for terran in time to FE. 15 pool puts you slightly behind against terran and you have to watch out for 2rax/bunker play, but ZvT is such a joke right now that you should have no problem making up your tiny disadvantage. Toss- pylon in main, if you scout zerg you can go forge in main and do FFE CreatorPrime-style and go gateway core vs T and P. If you don't scout in time, gateway/core into fast expand vs zerg is seeing a lot of use in pro games Terran - 1rax expand vs all. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
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fire_brand
Canada1123 Posts
I've played random since the beta, and have never cheesed. I have well over 2000 1v1 games played, as random. I have discovered in my years of laddering that most random players, even if they're cheesers, are the most manner players on the ladder. If you beat their cheese they gg and leave the game. When the same happens against any other race cheesing me they rage and go off against the injustices of me playing random. I would say nowadays, I get cheesed more by Toss and Zergs then any other race. Every other game is a roach bane all in, or a baneling bust, 6 pool, 4 gate, 8 gate, or sentry immortal all in. Random players are probably not going to be relying on any mid game cheese if they don't cheese you in the first 5 minutes. And if they do, then it should be a free win that you can take to the bank. If anything you should be reveling in your chance to play a game against a random player. Of the 30 games you play every day most are probably infestor broodlord, or some sort of mid game timing attack all in. Random players don't do that, either because of lack of experience or lack of interest. If they have a funky opening, then good. You may end up playing a game different than the last 50 games you played on the ladder. It will take you outside of your comfort game and make you a better player. Take it as an opportunity and stop blaming random players for enjoying the game. There are numerous safe openings against random that you can play. With the new maps you can even play greedy and beat most cheese. And next time try asking them what race they are. They'll probably tell you. Next time you see that little planet beside their name resist the urge to succumb to the rage rising within you and take a positive perspective on the game. It'll make playing sc2 more fun. | ||
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BreakfastBurrito
United States893 Posts
On December 27 2012 04:15 Emzeeshady wrote: I either just 6 pool or quit vs random. The reason is that by playing random they are really screwing up that game. I want to play a game where I am able to practice and play standard and by playing random we are basically playing a pointless game where I would have to stay incredibly defensive and wait for their all in. If they really did want to play all three races they would just switch between the three instead of using the advantage they have to cheese. 1. Playing random does not screw up the game, especially if the non-random is zerg. You can scout at 9 or even 10 long before you would ever think of throwing down a 14 pool or a 15 hatch. 2. Not every random all-ins and cheeses, there are plenty of randoms in the thread willing to attest to that 3. Random has to learn 9 matchups across 3 races, I don't get why people think playing random is so easy and such an advantage. It isn't. If random is so OP, then why are there no pro random players? | ||
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TSORG
293 Posts
that being said its prolly not a big problem at diamond/master lvl, but at the lower lvls it is imo, unit control and macro being so much worse playing random (cheeses) gives such a huge advantage. and i suppose it will give a big advantage at pro lvl, but im not an expert on that matter. i always ask if someone plays rdm and i consider it a bit bm if ppl dont say because imo rdm is there for your own excitement/improvement/etc and should not affect others. i did once have someone lie to me though, so you cant always trust them. someone already said it before, i just think well whatever, some people are just so sad for points they will lie about something so petty and go on. its not the worst thing in the world and for those who play rdm and tell their races, more respect to them. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2603 Posts
Of course the only difference is you send the 9 scout out and see if they are zerg. | ||
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Slithe
United States985 Posts
On December 27 2012 09:10 TSORG wrote: there are no rdm pro players because no serious tournament should and would accept such an advantage at pro lvl. there is merit to the idea that playing requires more knowledge (not skill) of the game, having random is definitely an option that should be kept in the game. imo fairest solution is to make the race visible in the loading screen. that being said its prolly not a big problem at diamond/master lvl, but at the lower lvls it is imo, unit control and macro being so much worse playing random (cheeses) gives such a huge advantage. and i suppose it will give a big advantage at pro lvl, but im not an expert on that matter. i always ask if someone plays rdm and i consider it a bit bm if ppl dont say because imo rdm is there for your own excitement/improvement/etc and should not affect others. i did once have someone lie to me though, so you cant always trust them. someone already said it before, i just think well whatever, some people are just so sad for points they will lie about something so petty and go on. its not the worst thing in the world and for those who play rdm and tell their races, more respect to them. The reason why there are no pro players who play random is because it is too difficult to practice for three races at once. TLO tried it for a while, and gave up on it. It has nothing to do with tournaments disallowing random. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On December 27 2012 09:10 TSORG wrote: there are no rdm pro players because no serious tournament should and would accept such an advantage at pro lvl. Ofc every tournament should embrace any randoms they can find, unfortunately its too hard to play all three races at a high level. One of the best players in the worlds greatest tournaments started his career as random. The towel terran, Gumiho, can be found playing random on several vods on gomtv. | ||
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ProfessionalNoob
United States75 Posts
And I'm sure you have one standard opening that is race agnostic, I play protoss, so I just open gate core and decide what to do afterwards, but as zerg, you can probably just do 14 pool 15 hatch as others have suggested, and scout on 9 supply. | ||
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Kasu
United Kingdom345 Posts
On December 27 2012 04:25 DashedHopes wrote: I find it very hard vs Zerg as Toss cause it forces me to do a 1 base opening and we all know how good that is. Also people say they have huge disadvantage being random but their mmr is the same so they are same level with all 3 races technically so their advantages are imba in my opinion. Technically their MMR already includes their random advantage, since they would have had it in the games that determined their MMR. So they will actually be slightly weaker players, but with a little advantage from random. Making it equal overall. | ||
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
On December 27 2012 08:00 fire_brand wrote: I play random. It's ironic that everyone in the community has this opinion. You play a random maybe 10% of the time. And if you're in diamond and above they'll probably be cheesing about 25% of the time. So every 40 games you'll get cheesed by a random. If you take this same occurrence and put it up against the other races you face you're probably going to come up against similar numbers. I've played random since the beta, and have never cheesed. I have well over 2000 1v1 games played, as random. I have discovered in my years of laddering that most random players, even if they're cheesers, are the most manner players on the ladder. If you beat their cheese they gg and leave the game. When the same happens against any other race cheesing me they rage and go off against the injustices of me playing random. I would say nowadays, I get cheesed more by Toss and Zergs then any other race. Every other game is a roach bane all in, or a baneling bust, 6 pool, 4 gate, 8 gate, or sentry immortal all in. Random players are probably not going to be relying on any mid game cheese if they don't cheese you in the first 5 minutes. And if they do, then it should be a free win that you can take to the bank. If anything you should be reveling in your chance to play a game against a random player. Of the 30 games you play every day most are probably infestor broodlord, or some sort of mid game timing attack all in. Random players don't do that, either because of lack of experience or lack of interest. If they have a funky opening, then good. You may end up playing a game different than the last 50 games you played on the ladder. It will take you outside of your comfort game and make you a better player. Take it as an opportunity and stop blaming random players for enjoying the game. There are numerous safe openings against random that you can play. With the new maps you can even play greedy and beat most cheese. And next time try asking them what race they are. They'll probably tell you. Next time you see that little planet beside their name resist the urge to succumb to the rage rising within you and take a positive perspective on the game. It'll make playing sc2 more fun. This post needd more love. Fine argument, well made. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On December 27 2012 09:10 TSORG wrote: there are no rdm pro players because no serious tournament should and would accept such an advantage at pro lvl. there is merit to the idea that playing requires more knowledge (not skill) of the game, having random is definitely an option that should be kept in the game. imo fairest solution is to make the race visible in the loading screen. that being said its prolly not a big problem at diamond/master lvl, but at the lower lvls it is imo, unit control and macro being so much worse playing random (cheeses) gives such a huge advantage. and i suppose it will give a big advantage at pro lvl, but im not an expert on that matter. i always ask if someone plays rdm and i consider it a bit bm if ppl dont say because imo rdm is there for your own excitement/improvement/etc and should not affect others. i did once have someone lie to me though, so you cant always trust them. someone already said it before, i just think well whatever, some people are just so sad for points they will lie about something so petty and go on. its not the worst thing in the world and for those who play rdm and tell their races, more respect to them. Every single pro tournament allows random. Such a baseless statement. If it was such an advantage, more people would clearly use it. To say its BM is utterly retarded. You going to cry if I don't tell you my position? Peoples dislike because they "can't get better and practice" is just fucking stupid. Then quit the damned individual game if your true motivation is solely practice. It'll be like two minutes tops wasted out of your time once every 50 games. Since its part of the game, why not take the time to practice vs Random, considering its in the game? Clearly you're not trying to become pro. Amazes me people pay $30-60 for a game and don't want to play all three races. The incessant whining is hilarious, people can bitch about such trivial things. | ||
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Penecks
United States600 Posts
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On January 18 2012 20:44 ThatGuy89 wrote: as a toss player i hate vs random. You HAVE to build the pylong near your main ramp incase its zerg. If its not, theres no Heard about gateway expand? With like, your gate next to your nexus and stuff? On December 27 2012 09:10 TSORG wrote: there are no rdm pro players because no serious tournament should and would accept such an advantage at pro lvl.respect to them.  GuMiho You haters should all read what this guy wrote: On December 27 2012 08:00 fire_brand wrote: I play random. It's ironic that everyone in the community has this opinion. You play a random maybe 10% of the time. And if you're in diamond and above they'll probably be cheesing about 25% of the time. So every 40 games you'll get cheesed by a random. If you take this same occurrence and put it up against the other races you face you're probably going to come up against similar numbers. I've played random since the beta, and have never cheesed. I have well over 2000 1v1 games played, as random. I have discovered in my years of laddering that most random players, even if they're cheesers, are the most manner players on the ladder. If you beat their cheese they gg and leave the game. When the same happens against any other race cheesing me they rage and go off against the injustices of me playing random. I would say nowadays, I get cheesed more by Toss and Zergs then any other race. Every other game is a roach bane all in, or a baneling bust, 6 pool, 4 gate, 8 gate, or sentry immortal all in. Random players are probably not going to be relying on any mid game cheese if they don't cheese you in the first 5 minutes. And if they do, then it should be a free win that you can take to the bank. If anything you should be reveling in your chance to play a game against a random player. Of the 30 games you play every day most are probably infestor broodlord, or some sort of mid game timing attack all in. Random players don't do that, either because of lack of experience or lack of interest. If they have a funky opening, then good. You may end up playing a game different than the last 50 games you played on the ladder. It will take you outside of your comfort game and make you a better player. Take it as an opportunity and stop blaming random players for enjoying the game. There are numerous safe openings against random that you can play. With the new maps you can even play greedy and beat most cheese. And next time try asking them what race they are. They'll probably tell you. Next time you see that little planet beside their name resist the urge to succumb to the rage rising within you and take a positive perspective on the game. It'll make playing sc2 more fun. | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On December 27 2012 06:04 Salivanth wrote: Actually, they aren't, because you haven't extended your theory enough. Your idea is that their MMR is the same as yours despite the handicap of playing three races, therefore they can play as well as you can, despite playing three races to your one. This is true, but you haven't accounted for the fact that the random advantage is ALSO reflected in the MMR of your random opponent. You still have, on average, a 50% chance to beat them when all the advantages and disadvantages are tallied up. That said, while their advantages aren't imbalanced thanks to the way MMR works, they ARE annoying as hell. It's ruining Protoss for me. Even when the Zerg plays completely standard. I don't want to learn a gate-core-expand just for the occasional PvR(Z) games I face, but I think I will have to: 1-base all-ins are absolute ass in PvZ, and I can't FFE in PvR. I agree with you. Didnt want to make my already long post longer by taking the advantages of the random players as reflected in their mmr, but basically i was aware of it. And as you say, it simply produce weird games where you would practice a build you never ever do... so those games are simply a waste unless, ofc, the random players tells u his race | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On December 27 2012 09:25 Slithe wrote: The reason why there are no pro players who play random is because it is too difficult to practice for three races at once. TLO tried it for a while, and gave up on it. It has nothing to do with tournaments disallowing random. you are actually wrong. Some tournaments allows to change race (not to play random, but to change race) between matches and TLO, at some tournament in 2012, played zvt and zvp but decided every time he faced a Z to play tvz. I think i'm not mistaken, it could be the other way around, but it means TLO thought his tvz was better than zvz. I guess it's still 3 match-up to practice but i guess practicing zvp, zvt and tvz instead of all 3 Z matchup should be harder. TLO still decided to play like this. But it could perhaps be argued that he's a little inconsistent with his decision regarding his career. Also, Nerchio was at first known to be ranked 1 europe as random player. | ||
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where_
Australia53 Posts
On December 27 2012 10:38 Surili wrote: This post needd more love. Fine argument, well made. It's a well written, logical post in a thread that's an excuse for people to qq about how it's not their fault when they lose. So, while it does deserve more love, it will just be ignored by most people. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 27 2012 04:15 Emzeeshady wrote: I either just 6 pool or quit vs random. The reason is that by playing random they are really screwing up that game. I want to play a game where I am able to practice and play standard and by playing random we are basically playing a pointless game where I would have to stay incredibly defensive and wait for their all in. If they really did want to play all three races they would just switch between the three instead of using the advantage they have to cheese. Go find some practice partners then. If you're looking to practice against a huge spectrum of strategies thrown randomly at you from widely varying levels of skill, then ladder is pretty great -- otherwise, it has no obligation to conform to anyone's practice requirements. Why do you even care what their intention on the ladder is? They're playing ladder to compete for whatever reason and you're trying to rationalize it and put it into a perspective which marginalizes the player and puts your holier than thou ladder practice upon its golden pedestal. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5417 Posts
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ProfSc
United States51 Posts
ZvZ: 9 pool ZvT: Try to get to ling-infestor, then BLs ZvP: Roaches are fun. PvP: 4 gate PvZ: Sentry/Immortal all-in PvT: Something that involved getting AoE TvZ: Bio or mech, depending on what I scout and feel. TvP: 2 Rax poke or Bomber Style TvT: Boxer-style Reaper/Hellion or Thorzain. The above is when I random in Diamond. When facing a random as Terran, I just do a 1 rax FE. I subsequently lose to Protoss on Cloud Kingdom and Antiga because of blink stalkers, but it's a small price to pay for being behind. Just put everything into statistics and then you see everything in perspective, rather than viewing a single encounter as being defining of random players. | ||
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TSORG
293 Posts
On December 27 2012 09:25 Slithe wrote: The reason why there are no pro players who play random is because it is too difficult to practice for three races at once. TLO tried it for a while, and gave up on it. It has nothing to do with tournaments disallowing random. i suppose you are right, it would make practicing for boX rather hard if not impossible. hadnt considered that. | ||
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TSORG
293 Posts
On December 27 2012 10:42 FabledIntegral wrote: Every single pro tournament allows random. Such a baseless statement. If it was such an advantage, more people would clearly use it. To say its BM is utterly retarded. You going to cry if I don't tell you my position? Peoples dislike because they "can't get better and practice" is just fucking stupid. Then quit the damned individual game if your true motivation is solely practice. It'll be like two minutes tops wasted out of your time once every 50 games. Since its part of the game, why not take the time to practice vs Random, considering its in the game? Clearly you're not trying to become pro. Amazes me people pay $30-60 for a game and don't want to play all three races. The incessant whining is hilarious, people can bitch about such trivial things. where did i say anything about practice? blizzard takes pride in saying the game is fair and balanced on all difficulties/skill levels when it obviously isnt and rdm is part of that. you can say that it just means you are not good enough if you dont know how to play vs rdm but seriously what meaning has such a statement when you talk about b/s/g? and maybe even p and d. | ||
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
On December 27 2012 06:04 Salivanth wrote: Actually, they aren't, because you haven't extended your theory enough. Your idea is that their MMR is the same as yours despite the handicap of playing three races, therefore they can play as well as you can, despite playing three races to your one. This is true, but you haven't accounted for the fact that the random advantage is ALSO reflected in the MMR of your random opponent. You still have, on average, a 50% chance to beat them when all the advantages and disadvantages are tallied up. That said, while their advantages aren't imbalanced thanks to the way MMR works, they ARE annoying as hell. It's ruining Protoss for me. Even when the Zerg plays completely standard. I don't want to learn a gate-core-expand just for the occasional PvR(Z) games I face, but I think I will have to: 1-base all-ins are absolute ass in PvZ, and I can't FFE in PvR. 1 base 4 gate DTs will get you far into masters lol | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
On December 27 2012 02:34 DKR wrote: Personally I feel like they provide P with ample opportunity to punish that kind of greed, but I guess we'll agree to disagree. Sorry to also disagree but he's right. He acknowledged you can pressure the Zerg that goes hatch first, but there is no way to 'punish' a hatch first with a gate first opener. And if the Zerg dots his I's you will be behind compared to a forge opener. I still think gateway first is a fine way to play though, people just don't like playing more than one build | ||
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Invictusss
5 Posts
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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Deskana
United Kingdom3 Posts
In fact, I feel if the player is random and gets zerg then *they're* the one at the disadvantage since they really have no idea what to do against someone who gate expands. I can normally kill two or three overlords with only a single stalker. | ||
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nanokwark
Poland51 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On December 27 2012 20:48 TSORG wrote: where did i say anything about practice? blizzard takes pride in saying the game is fair and balanced on all difficulties/skill levels when it obviously isnt and rdm is part of that. you can say that it just means you are not good enough if you dont know how to play vs rdm but seriously what meaning has such a statement when you talk about b/s/g? and maybe even p and d. How can you possibly argue that the issue is that a severe discrepancy exists at only the bottom levels of play? How is that any different than one race being piss easy over other races at the bottom level of play? Now all you're arguing is that if you really suck at the game or have absolutely no idea what is going on, that random can occasionally exacerbate the issue? Awful argument. Cannon rushing is strong in bronze too, let's remove it from the game. By your logic we should also remove random for the reason it is too weak at the top levels of play. | ||
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BreakfastBurrito
United States893 Posts
On December 27 2012 11:25 Natalya wrote: you are actually wrong. Some tournaments allows to change race (not to play random, but to change race) between matches and TLO, at some tournament in 2012, played zvt and zvp but decided every time he faced a Z to play tvz. I think i'm not mistaken, it could be the other way around, but it means TLO thought his tvz was better than zvz. I guess it's still 3 match-up to practice but i guess practicing zvp, zvt and tvz instead of all 3 Z matchup should be harder. TLO still decided to play like this. But it could perhaps be argued that he's a little inconsistent with his decision regarding his career. Also, Nerchio was at first known to be ranked 1 europe as random player. that was MorroW who did the TvZ, switch, not TLO. No, he's not wrong, playing random is much more difficult than playing 1 race, and only gets worse as you get to higher levels. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On December 28 2012 07:51 BreakfastBurrito wrote: that was MorroW who did the TvZ, switch, not TLO. No, he's not wrong, playing random is much more difficult than playing 1 race, and only gets worse as you get to higher levels. TLO did it too from what I'm aware... | ||
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DKR
United Kingdom622 Posts
On December 28 2012 09:34 FabledIntegral wrote: TLO did it too from what I'm aware... FabledIntegral is correct in saying that they both did. Playing Random is harder in some ways and easier in others. You have a better feel for races weaknesses but you lack a certain depth of understanding someone who's played a comparable amount of games would possess. Random should be considered a great component of this game. With regards to how you react to it, it's just another challenge thrown your way; changing your opening once every ten games or so is not going to make you a worse player and is potentially only going to improve your play. FireBrand's post was the best in this thread (or at least the parts which I have read). | ||
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Slithe
United States985 Posts
On December 28 2012 09:34 FabledIntegral wrote: TLO did it too from what I'm aware... I know for sure that TLO did play random at first. I don't remember if he also did race-picking at some point, but I wouldn't be surprised. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
Also, if you're playing PvR(Z) and do a gateway opener, try playing a stargate expand style. Back in the day MC ruled PvZ with his stargate style, and many zergs (myself included) have forgotten how to play against it. | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
On December 28 2012 13:25 Emzeeshady wrote: This has nothing to do with my intentions. I have many practice partners but I want to be able to play vs a wide variety of strategies. The problem is if they are random I cannot play normal and therefore it does not help me do anything because I will not play that way in a normal match. If randoms ACTUALLY wanted to learn how to play all three races like they say they do (most of them in this thread are probably lying) then they would just pick a different race every game so that the match they play will actually play out noramlly. If they are just playing to have fun and try out some cheeses then sure play random but otherwise there is no reason to. I play randmo because its more fun not knowing which of the 9 matchups youre going to get. Its got nothing to do with trying out cheeses for most people | ||
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SnePe
Sweden14 Posts
On December 28 2012 14:19 Lobotomist wrote: I haven't had problems playing against random. Just open with a safe macro build, scout normally and play it out. Once you've seen what they are the game is back on even footing. Maybe they get an advantage from you opening extra safe, but just consider it an extra challenge. Also, if you're playing PvR(Z) and do a gateway opener, try playing a stargate expand style. Back in the day MC ruled PvZ with his stargate style, and many zergs (myself included) have forgotten how to play against it. The problem with gateway openers in PvZ is that if the Zerg KNOWS that you are going to do one, they are very abusable. They work great in "normal" games because Zergs dont know if its going to be, lets say; FFE, Nexus first or Gateway opener. Of course they could do an early drone scout but that has gone out of style in the meta game after the OL speed buff. When you play RvP and spawn Zerg, you know the options a P has are very limited, either 1 base all in, proxy gates, cannon rush or gateway expand. Something like a semi-fast pool with a fair amout of lings are pretty good against all of them. The reason you wouldn't want to do it is because you are behind vs a FFE or Nexus-Forge build. If the randomer in this case wants to take advantage of it then the game is basically over before it starts. Just for the record, I dont have anything against randomers; when I'm not in the mood I just leave the game instantly. No problems. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Random would be a great choice to pick if the loading screen just showed the race the randomer gets. Why have this hidden information? | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
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Creegz
Canada354 Posts
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On December 28 2012 15:30 Emzeeshady wrote: A great solution would be to have the race the random spawns as come up in the loading screen so I know for sure what race it is. A lot of randoms tell me their race but I can't trust them because like 25% lie about it... i agree, playing v random isnt fun, and it doesnt actually make proper games. people who play random probably never get to play vs an FFE toss, if they ever have to play a race pick tourny and go zerg, they will have no idea how to play against toss. i dont think this game i suited for random | ||
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
60% of the time, it works every timeedit - actually on 2 player maps sometimes ill just scout at like 10 supply and its not too bad just a minor annoyance | ||
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BigBadBeaver
Canada272 Posts
On December 28 2012 15:28 Emzeeshady wrote: pull stuff out of a hat? There are programs you can use to randomly select inputted options. Like seriously why would you spoil a game for another person to get a thrill over what race you pick in a video game? For the record, Blizzard encourages random by having portraits... I'm sure many people would be satisfied rolling a dice on their desk otherwise. I think the best solution is a "reveal race" option and hopefully, it comes soon because it's extremely frustrating that one can't play random on the ladder without getting cursed at every other game. | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
If they tell the truth, then chances are they are someone who doesn't want to abuse your lack of knowledge, and simply wants to just be solid with all three races. If they lie, or refuse to tell; then chances are that they may try to cheese you--in my experience most of the time that they don't tell they will try to do a cheese. Those games might end up being wierd, but I personally find weird games fun; as they force a lot of improvisation. Or if you are like Emzeeshady and can't stand playing a non-standard game, then just leave and find another match. There are very few people who play random, so this small inconvienance , is just that, small. | ||
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Rasper
United Kingdom25 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On December 28 2012 15:24 SnePe wrote: The problem with gateway openers in PvZ is that if the Zerg KNOWS that you are going to do one, they are very abusable. They work great in "normal" games because Zergs dont know if its going to be, lets say; FFE, Nexus first or Gateway opener. Of course they could do an early drone scout but that has gone out of style in the meta game after the OL speed buff. When you play RvP and spawn Zerg, you know the options a P has are very limited, either 1 base all in, proxy gates, cannon rush or gateway expand. Something like a semi-fast pool with a fair amout of lings are pretty good against all of them. The reason you wouldn't want to do it is because you are behind vs a FFE or Nexus-Forge build. If the randomer in this case wants to take advantage of it then the game is basically over before it starts. Just for the record, I dont have anything against randomers; when I'm not in the mood I just leave the game instantly. No problems. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Random would be a great choice to pick if the loading screen just showed the race the randomer gets. Why have this hidden information? I agree with you on a lot of the points about random, here. However, a gateway opener is only abusable if you don't know what you're doing. Even against gas/pool, you should be able to 13 gate-->scout, learn the speed timing, and then wall off your natural before the rush. | ||
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_indigo_
Slovenia171 Posts
Random players, including me, play because random because we like all the races and don't wanna either waste on any (and not experience it since we bought a full game) or get tired/bored of playing only one. It has NOTHING to do with having some sort of ridiculous advantage - at least past diamond it doesn't. So don't treat us like some kind of StarCraft criminals. | ||
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MattMannion
United States25 Posts
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_indigo_
Slovenia171 Posts
I can image most of you have terrible experience with random players, but don't get too judgy - after all we aren't a single overmind but different individuals. And some of us wants to play a straight up game as well... (not that it would hurt you much if you try to defend a cheese once in 50 games or so anyway..) | ||
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Big-t
Austria1350 Posts
I play random and most of the time I tell my opponent my race, just because I don´t want to hear any random complains after I won >< | ||
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Ashent
Korea (South)109 Posts
I put my cannon behind my minerals (in range of at least 1 geyser) like you are expecting Z no matter what, and then 9 scout. When you get to your opponent's base and find they are T, you're totally fine. When you get there and they are P, you throw down a 13 or 14 gate and play safe. In the case of the 14, it's less likely to be 2gated anyway since it's obviously a 4 player map since you didn't find them at 13. If you get there and they are Z, you try to Nexus First until you see the pool. If you do see it, you put down your forge and second pylon. EZ. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
Here's a better question: which all-ins are best for using against the hated random opponents? I prefer 2 proxy gates, but I guess cannon rushing is viable too. | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
On December 28 2012 15:28 Emzeeshady wrote: pull stuff out of a hat? There are programs you can use to randomly select inputted options. Like seriously why would you spoil a game for another person to get a thrill over what race you pick in a video game? This is a hilarious attitude lol | ||
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unix04
United States89 Posts
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ZeroTalent
United States297 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On December 28 2012 15:28 Emzeeshady wrote: pull stuff out of a hat? There are programs you can use to randomly select inputted options. Like seriously why would you spoil a game for another person to get a thrill over what race you pick in a video game? You've got to be fucking kidding.... You're only letting your own experience be ruined. I might as well whine that people who use infestors also ruin the game for me so they shouldn't use them. Talk about selfish, nonsensical thinking. | ||
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Rasper
United Kingdom25 Posts
On December 28 2012 19:37 _indigo_ wrote: Just ask the random player what race he got and most will tell you. Then play normal from 10 seconds on. If you happen to FFE agains a liar, well, this is gonna happen mostly once in 200 games so you don't need to sweat about it. Random players, including me, play because random because we like all the races and don't wanna either waste on any (and not experience it since we bought a full game) or get tired/bored of playing only one. It has NOTHING to do with having some sort of ridiculous advantage - at least past diamond it doesn't. So don't treat us like some kind of StarCraft criminals. Problem is a few idiots ruin it for everyone, I know most randoms are good guys but the 1 in 200 ratio is wrong, wrong enough in fact I don't bother asking because I wont believe the random player anyway. Also an early cheese seems strong because most randoms I encounter don't even bother scouting because they want to hide their race and, if they win I'd rather quickly move onto a proper game anyway. | ||
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_indigo_
Slovenia171 Posts
And for the Protoss players: if I, a random, know how to open Gate-first and still take the advantage of the given situation (you opt to play more aggressive, boo hoo..) they definitely should. But I understand that bad examples are always the one that stay in your memory - as in SC, as in real life, sadly. Everything aside, it's just a game and it's just a one-match-in-a-dozen after all. You can't play all standard and expect other to do as well - there is a reason there are options in the game. Scout is the key, and having no fear. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 28 2012 13:25 Emzeeshady wrote: This has nothing to do with my intentions. I have many practice partners but I want to be able to play vs a wide variety of strategies. The problem is if they are random I cannot play normal and therefore it does not help me do anything because I will not play that way in a normal match. If randoms ACTUALLY wanted to learn how to play all three races like they say they do (most of them in this thread are probably lying) then they would just pick a different race every game so that the match they play will actually play out noramlly. If they are just playing to have fun and try out some cheeses then sure play random but otherwise there is no reason to. What do you even want someone to tell you? Deal with it. It's not a random players problem that ladder isn't designed for your intentions -- that IS the central point. Your complaints revolve around the fact that you go on ladder with a purpose ladder wasn't made to provide exclusively. Quit it with the entitlement and stop analyzing a random player's motives; yours are no better in the purview of ladder. On December 28 2012 16:35 BigBadBeaver wrote: For the record, Blizzard encourages random by having portraits... I'm sure many people would be satisfied rolling a dice on their desk otherwise. I think the best solution is a "reveal race" option and hopefully, it comes soon because it's extremely frustrating that one can't play random on the ladder without getting cursed at every other game. The real solution is for people to get over themselves. Random players owe them nothing -- especially if that person is actually that much of a douche to bitch at him because you're the 2nd random player he's played in a month and you're not telling him your race. God forbid. On December 29 2012 19:46 Rasper wrote: Problem is a few idiots ruin it for everyone, I know most randoms are good guys but the 1 in 200 ratio is wrong, wrong enough in fact I don't bother asking because I wont believe the random player anyway. Also an early cheese seems strong because most randoms I encounter don't even bother scouting because they want to hide their race and, if they win I'd rather quickly move onto a proper game anyway. The fact you'd actually gamble a ladder game and get upset over it rather than deal with random as a race is pretty ironic. I hope more randoms fuck with people on ladder. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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BreakfastBurrito
United States893 Posts
On December 30 2012 13:46 dAPhREAk wrote: woh, one year later and this debate is still going on. Whether it's infestors or vortex, stim or forcefield, or in this case of course, random, people will forever be searching for something to absolve themselves of responsibility when they lose on the ladder. Just weird that its over something that can be solved with a 10 scout. | ||
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Rasper
United Kingdom25 Posts
On December 30 2012 13:06 rd wrote: What do you even want someone to tell you? Deal with it. It's not a random players problem that ladder isn't designed for your intentions -- that IS the central point. Your complaints revolve around the fact that you go on ladder with a purpose ladder wasn't made to provide exclusively. Quit it with the entitlement and stop analyzing a random player's motives; yours are no better in the purview of ladder. The real solution is for people to get over themselves. Random players owe them nothing -- especially if that person is actually that much of a douche to bitch at him because you're the 2nd random player he's played in a month and you're not telling him your race. God forbid. The fact you'd actually gamble a ladder game and get upset over it rather than deal with random as a race is pretty ironic. I hope more randoms fuck with people on ladder. Where did I say I get upset? Couldn't give a shit about 'gambling' a ladder game vs random, I play to improve not for ladder points. What's the point in learning to deal with random as a race (not that I see random as a race) long term? There is no irony in my post just honesty. You say you hope randoms fuck with people on ladder but I feel like I'm the one fucking with them as I never give them a proper game and win or lose I can't wait to get on with some real games. If race was revealed at the start then this would be a completely different story of course. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 30 2012 20:46 Rasper wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 30 2012 13:06 rd wrote: What do you even want someone to tell you? Deal with it. It's not a random players problem that ladder isn't designed for your intentions -- that IS the central point. Your complaints revolve around the fact that you go on ladder with a purpose ladder wasn't made to provide exclusively. Quit it with the entitlement and stop analyzing a random player's motives; yours are no better in the purview of ladder. The real solution is for people to get over themselves. Random players owe them nothing -- especially if that person is actually that much of a douche to bitch at him because you're the 2nd random player he's played in a month and you're not telling him your race. God forbid. The fact you'd actually gamble a ladder game and get upset over it rather than deal with random as a race is pretty ironic. I hope more randoms fuck with people on ladder. Where did I say I get upset? Couldn't give a shit about 'gambling' a ladder game vs random, I play to improve not for ladder points. What's the point in learning to deal with random as a race (not that I see random as a race) long term? There is no irony in my post just honesty. You say you hope randoms fuck with people on ladder but I feel like I'm the one fucking with them as I never give them a proper game and win or lose I can't wait to get on with some real games. If race was revealed at the start then this would be a completely different story of course. Upset; casually calling random players who fuck with you idiots; same difference really. The irony (yet again) that you not only continue to galvanize this utopian-esque idea of a 'proper game,' but apparently you assume random players (and likely all players) value it as much as you do too. I highly suggest you re-evaluate the ladder's purpose and step down from your high horse. | ||
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Rasper
United Kingdom25 Posts
On December 30 2012 22:07 rd wrote: Upset; casually calling random players who fuck with you idiots; same difference really. The irony (yet again) that you not only continue to galvanize this utopian-esque idea of a 'proper game,' but apparently you assume random players (and likely all players) value it as much as you do too. I highly suggest you re-evaluate the ladder's purpose and step down from your high horse. Haha I said a few idiots ruin it for everyone which is true! Which means asking any random player their race is a waste of time. I'm not upset about it one bit that is just a word you have put into my mouth. Also you sure like this irony word :D By 'proper' game I mean one that will more closely resemble something that would happen in a tournament. What is the ladders purpose? Is there only one purpose? No (idiot), its purpose is whatever you want it to be. For some it will be to gain ladder points anyway they can(even if it means they lie about their race), for others its to get some good practice against a variety of styles, for others its just to have fun/troll with silly builds etc etc Also "you assume random players (and likely all players) value it as much as you do too" More words you put into my mouth :D (is this an american thing?) I couldn't give a flying fuck what the other player value, just like they probably couldn't give a fuck what I value. I'm riding off on my high horse now, see you later! User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Croaker
United States101 Posts
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Kasu
United Kingdom345 Posts
On December 30 2012 20:46 Rasper wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 30 2012 13:06 rd wrote: What do you even want someone to tell you? Deal with it. It's not a random players problem that ladder isn't designed for your intentions -- that IS the central point. Your complaints revolve around the fact that you go on ladder with a purpose ladder wasn't made to provide exclusively. Quit it with the entitlement and stop analyzing a random player's motives; yours are no better in the purview of ladder. The real solution is for people to get over themselves. Random players owe them nothing -- especially if that person is actually that much of a douche to bitch at him because you're the 2nd random player he's played in a month and you're not telling him your race. God forbid. The fact you'd actually gamble a ladder game and get upset over it rather than deal with random as a race is pretty ironic. I hope more randoms fuck with people on ladder. Where did I say I get upset? Couldn't give a shit about 'gambling' a ladder game vs random, I play to improve not for ladder points. What's the point in learning to deal with random as a race (not that I see random as a race) long term? There is no irony in my post just honesty. You say you hope randoms fuck with people on ladder but I feel like I'm the one fucking with them as I never give them a proper game and win or lose I can't wait to get on with some real games. If race was revealed at the start then this would be a completely different story of course. Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but what is the point of learning to play against any of the races long-term? As far as I see it, the only people to whom that actually matters are professional players. For the other 99.9% of us, random is as valid an option for our opponents as anything else. This is why I quite like meeting random. I know I'm basically having fun/killing time by playing this game and its not as though anything rests on it, so I simply enjoy the variety. | ||
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Nairi
Finland75 Posts
To those of you claiming to play ladder for the sake of practice and not winning: -Saying that facing a random player is a waste of time is just stupidity, if you are so worried about practicing something specific you should be playing versus a practice partner or against a computer. -You can always practice weird builds, mechanics, etc. -Since you dont care about ladder points, feel free to leave the game, as that will only cost you ladder points. (and also you may have made someone else happier by doing so) -I would wager that randoms do more cheesy builds, but if you are practicing on ladder you should be aware that people do cheesy builds all the time, and ladder is a good place to practice against them cheeses. Now there is obviously an advantage for the random player in that he knows your race and you dont know his, this only lasts for as long as either of you scouts. Consider however that the random player must know 9 matchups (10 if you count rvr) and you only need to know 3 (or 4 if you count the vs random). I would say that when you count both these factors you come out somewhat even. Personally I play random because: -I like to have some knowledge of all races. -I like playing unorthodox shit, and random lets me get away easier with that. (I also like winning on the ladder). Finally I like to say that I understand the agony of you protoss players that end up vs a random zerg (everyone else has viable "standard" builds), fear not and try and look up some gateway first opener instead, as those do exist. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On January 19 2012 02:44 haffy wrote: Protoss can make a gateway and pylon next to their main and wall off with cyber/gate if they see it's Zerg. Right, and with a bit of "unluck", it'll be on a 4 player map like Entombed, scouted last. So when your probe arrives, you'll see he hatch-firsted, and you're stuck with your 1 gate expo. Any half decent Zerg has already won at this point. I absolutely hate playing a random that gets Zerg, cause it feels like no matter what I do, I'm already far behind at the start of the game. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 02 2013 21:45 Nyast wrote: Right, and with a bit of "unluck", it'll be on a 4 player map like Entombed, scouted last. So when your probe arrives, you'll see he hatch-firsted, and you're stuck with your 1 gate expo. Any half decent Zerg has already won at this point. I absolutely hate playing a random that gets Zerg, cause it feels like no matter what I do, I'm already far behind at the start of the game. You aren't fighting GSL level zergs are you? You're perfectly capable of winning PvZ's with a 1 gate fe on ladder. The odds are with you that the zerg's ZvP probably isn't up to par with your PvZ. | ||
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Ashent
Korea (South)109 Posts
You aren't fighting GSL level zergs are you? You're perfectly capable of winning PvZ's with a 1 gate fe on ladder. The odds are with you that the zerg's ZvP probably isn't up to par with your PvZ. How does that make it fair? And to be more clear, when I say 'fair,' I am not insinuating that the match means everything to me, or that the random player owes us anything - but more that one person already feels that the match has been made somewhat meaningless because the openers were so favored towards their opponent. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 03 2013 05:59 Ashent wrote: How does that make it fair? And to be more clear, when I say 'fair,' I am not insinuating that the match means everything to me, or that the random player owes us anything - but more that one person already feels that the match has been made somewhat meaningless because the openers were so favored towards their opponent. Wait a second? What do you mean by fair? Are you implying it isn't fair, that it FAVORS the random player? You can gate FE vZ and win all the way to top GM -- with remote consistency, even. Random exists on the ladder almost exclusively and there are balanced ways to defeat random in all relevant levels of ladder. And that's not even accounting for the fact that a random player will generally be worse than you. Actually, why don't we account for it and actually ascertain the reality that random is monumentally more unviable than gate fe in PvZ? On January 03 2013 06:18 Salient wrote: Other games that have random race display the randomly selected race. For example, Age of Mythology might display: Player 1 Random (Zeus) vs. Player 2 Random (Odin). I have no idea why random has a hidden race bonus in SC2. Cause it's based on starcraft which came years before age of mythology. Go play age of mythology if revealing random is so critical. Do you really think SC2's features should be based on a consensus of other popular RTS's, or are you simply cherry picking the ideas that conveniently suit your arguments? This could be strawmanned to oblivion. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 03 2013 06:34 Salient wrote: The hidden race dynamic gives the random player an information advantage that has no place in a competitive RTS game. It's annoying to start with a handicap when playing vs random. The only thing is to cheese them as hard as possible so the game ends quickly one way or the other. Its had a place in starcraft, the single most competitive rts game ever for more than a decade. Who are you to define what place it has in competitive RTS? I should re-iterate that the majority of your games vs random, the random player has more aggregate handicaps on average than you. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 03 2013 06:41 Salient wrote: Maybe you could explain why it makes sense to hide the random player's race. The hidden race feature is gratuitous and unnecessary. Its there because its there. Go ask Blizzard ten years ago. Why does Terran have to have a 50 mineral unit that's ranged? It was a design choice that worked. It's a fun general idea to pick your race randomly and get a small advantage out of it being hidden, and it's now synonymous to starcraft culture. There are zero problems with it other than the self-absorbed who make it a problem by refusing to acknowledge random as a race. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On January 03 2013 06:24 rd wrote: Wait a second? What do you mean by fair? Are you implying it isn't fair, that it FAVORS the random player? You can gate FE vZ and win all the way to top GM -- with remote consistency, even. Random exists on the ladder almost exclusively and there are balanced ways to defeat random in all relevant levels of ladder. You can gate expand and win when you're facing something like a 14 pool, but here we're talking about hatch 1st. Think about the exponential economy of a zerg, versus yours. The gap is gigantic between hatch 1st and 1 gate FE. Versus a pool hatch, Zerg is still ahead but if you play really well, you can fill the gap. I don't believe for one second you can consistantly win versus a hatch-1st zerg when you 1 gate expand. In fact, it is doubtful that you can 1 gate expand, because the Zerg can punish you with lings and still be ahead economically. More likely you're going to have to delay your expand until 5'30-6' to be safe. If you don't agree, please show me some replay of a protoss that wins in this scenario versus a good Zerg that doesn't do any early major mistake. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On January 03 2013 07:33 Nyast wrote: You can gate expand and win when you're facing something like a 14 pool, but here we're talking about hatch 1st. Think about the exponential economy of a zerg, versus yours. The gap is gigantic between hatch 1st and 1 gate FE. Versus a pool hatch, Zerg is still ahead but if you play really well, you can fill the gap. I don't believe for one second you can consistantly win versus a hatch-1st zerg when you 1 gate expand. In fact, it is doubtful that you can 1 gate expand, because the Zerg can punish you with lings and still be ahead economically. More likely you're going to have to delay your expand until 5'30-6' to be safe. If you don't agree, please show me some replay of a protoss that wins in this scenario versus a good Zerg that doesn't do any early major mistake. naniwa. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
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phoenixfeather95
665 Posts
Honestly, it's not a big deal. Just go for a safe opening. The Random player will most likely be executing a less refined build compared to yours anyway, since he has to learn (at the minimum) 3 builds for each race... | ||
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musafischer
19 Posts
On January 03 2013 08:53 phoenixfeather95 wrote: I go 1 rax FE every time I meet a Random player. Always worked for me, since 1 rax FE is both safe and economical... Honestly, it's not a big deal. Just go for a safe opening. The Random player will most likely be executing a less refined build compared to yours anyway, since he has to learn (at the minimum) 3 builds for each race... This guy has it right... play safe and solid. Rely on your specialized skill with your race to give you the advantage. No need to go crazy with builds or anything. | ||
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Atrbyg
United States513 Posts
On January 03 2013 08:53 phoenixfeather95 wrote: I go 1 rax FE every time I meet a Random player. Always worked for me, since 1 rax FE is both safe and economical... Honestly, it's not a big deal. Just go for a safe opening. The Random player will most likely be executing a less refined build compared to yours anyway, since he has to learn (at the minimum) 3 builds for each race... This is exactly what I do. I have the same mindset about playing against Random: it's all for practice so playing a Random player is not a big deal. | ||
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Banchan
United States179 Posts
On January 03 2013 08:00 Henk wrote: I don't understand the complaints. In my, say, 50 games against random players, at least 90% answered when I asked them what race they were; not once have I been lied against. Random players want to improve their skills with their races, which they can only do by playing a completely 'fair' game. In my case, about 45% of them say "random" or something cute like that. Out of the 55% that tell me a race, about 5% lie about it. Many times if the random player rolls zerg, I just surrender and queue again. (I'm protoss) | ||
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Raven_zero300
United States33 Posts
On January 03 2013 12:48 Banchan wrote: In my case, about 45% of them say "random" or something cute like that. Out of the 55% that tell me a race, about 5% lie about it. Many times if the random player rolls zerg, I just surrender and queue again. (I'm protoss) I personaly say "Night Elf" because that was my wc3 race. First though, if you are retarded enough to believe what a person says about their race, are you also retarded enough when a player tells you the strat they are going to do to believe that? No? Then stop freaking asking. Random has a place. I have 1400+ wins as random. I enjoy playing random. Why? Because it makes the ladder fun. It prevents me from being a racial strat retard like half of the players here. And most importantly, it prevents me from playing the same game twice. | ||
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
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NrG.ZaM
United States267 Posts
On January 03 2013 13:23 GhostKorean wrote: You can just roll an rng and pick your race and do everything you said Sounds good, random players already play 3 times as many matchups as we do, why not force them to do more bullshit like roll dice or tab out to choose a random number. Wouldn't want to inconvenience the other players in any way, you know. | ||
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
On January 03 2013 14:46 NrG.ZaM wrote: Sounds good, random players already play 3 times as many matchups as we do, why not force them to do more bullshit like roll dice or tab out to choose a random number. Wouldn't want to inconvenience the other players in any way, you know. Well I think it would benefit both players since the popular opinion seems to be to cheese randoms because they don't like playing vs random. Not only that but you get to play the matchups properly (ie A protoss will never FFE vs a random zerg). It's not a big deal, takes like 3 seconds and playing 3 times as many matchups is your choice and rolling for race doesn't change this in any way. I guess if you like having your random advantage you can play random but if you don't mind I don't see why you shouldn't do this. You don't have to be so hostile towards the idea | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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Prugelhugel
Austria637 Posts
On January 03 2013 08:00 Henk wrote: I don't understand the complaints. In my, say, 50 games against random players, at least 90% answered when I asked them what race they were; not once have I been lied against. Random players want to improve their skills with their races, which they can only do by playing a completely 'fair' game. As a Random telling races, I can also say that 90% of the people believe me. But about every second Random I meet either lies or doesn't tell anyways. And I think that this is even worse in lower leagues. edit: And btw, the reason why I play Random isn't the slight advantage, I do it because: - It is way more fun, you stop taking laddergames that serious (Because you are way better/worse in some matchups than your actual ranking says. This means you can play very relaxed because you know you are going to win or lose anyways. But it's always cool if it's the other way around). - If someone raceflames you at the end of the game, you always feel superior. - You know matchups from both perspectives and you don't get stuck in the "this strategy my opponent used is unbeatable" mindset. - People always seem to think that they can't lose in mirror matches against Randoms. As a result, I got to taste of the sweetest tears ever. - You HAVE to play normal macro games, you can't go for really greedy builds or allins (If you don't know your opponent) If I didn't switch to Random I'd still be the cheesy/allinish bm Zerg I used to be. :D But now my SC2gears-wordcloud lists a lot of wp's, gg's and "<---Zerg/Terran/Protoss". | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 03 2013 17:16 GhostKorean wrote: Well I think it would benefit both players since the popular opinion seems to be to cheese randoms because they don't like playing vs random. Not only that but you get to play the matchups properly (ie A protoss will never FFE vs a random zerg). It's not a big deal, takes like 3 seconds and playing 3 times as many matchups is your choice and rolling for race doesn't change this in any way. I guess if you like having your random advantage you can play random but if you don't mind I don't see why you shouldn't do this. You don't have to be so hostile towards the idea You mean the popular opinion of the vocal minority who bitch about random? You ask why everyone is so hostile when you like everyone else impose an importance of a proper game on ladder, and always put the problem onto the random player/random function and not the complaining player himself. It's the presumptuous, holier than thou attitude that always implies random is at fault. I got a better idea: Instead of wasting energy complaining about random, why don't players do what hundreds of thousands before them have done and learn an extra build for random? Why does a 14 year old function that's synonymous to our starcraft culture have to be removed because a few players are entitled? | ||
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
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Silentness
United States2821 Posts
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On January 03 2013 22:27 Silentness wrote: Playing random is fun. Watching someone rage and shed precious tears when I get zerg (and their protoss) is hilarious. They try to 4 gate me or immortal/sentry all in. Most of the time though the immortal/sentries get me Have fun while you still can. MsC Expand will be safe and economical vs all three races in HoTs. No more lucky free random wins. | ||
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Mista_Masta
Netherlands557 Posts
On January 03 2013 18:06 Prugelhugel wrote: As a Random telling races, I can also say that 90% of the people believe me. But about every second Random I meet either lies or doesn't tell anyways. And I think that this is even worse in lower leagues. edit: And btw, the reason why I play Random isn't the slight advantage, I do it because: - It is way more fun, you stop taking laddergames that serious (Because you are way better/worse in some matchups than your actual ranking says. This means you can play very relaxed because you know you are going to win or lose anyways. But it's always cool if it's the other way around). - If someone raceflames you at the end of the game, you always feel superior. - You know matchups from both perspectives and you don't get stuck in the "this strategy my opponent used is unbeatable" mindset. - People always seem to think that they can't lose in mirror matches against Randoms. As a result, I got to taste of the sweetest tears ever. - You HAVE to play normal macro games, you can't go for really greedy builds or allins (If you don't know your opponent) If I didn't switch to Random I'd still be the cheesy/allinish bm Zerg I used to be. :D But now my SC2gears-wordcloud lists a lot of wp's, gg's and "<---Zerg/Terran/Protoss". Bolded part is one of the main reasons I play Random. Other than that, it's just for fun. I always tell my race truthfully to people who ask, although I don't give the information if they don't ask. To all the people that hate playing against Random because of the 'information disadvantage' which can lead to a possible build order disadvantage, you can use Random opponents to practice how to play against a mechanically inferior player who happens to have an advantage because of his build order. Being behind because of a build order is very common at the highest levels as well, it's what you do with that disadvantage that determines whether you can come back or whether it snowballs out of (your) control. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 03 2013 19:07 rd wrote: You mean the popular opinion of the vocal minority who bitch about random? You ask why everyone is so hostile when you like everyone else impose an importance of a proper game on ladder, and always put the problem onto the random player/random function and not the complaining player himself. It's the presumptuous, holier than thou attitude that always implies random is at fault. I got a better idea: Instead of wasting energy complaining about random, why don't players do what hundreds of thousands before them have done and learn an extra build for random? Why does a 14 year old function that's synonymous to our starcraft culture have to be removed because a few players are entitled? Why are non-random players suppose to learn a safe against all and flexible opening while random players get to pick match-up specific builds? What makes Random players entitled to not having to play against people match up specific early-game's? Also, just because something has existed for 14 years doesn't make it great. | ||
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mannerposter
United Kingdom7 Posts
So to get around the problem I always reveal my race at the start. That way my opponent (assuming he believes me) can play his standard opening. It would be nice if there was an option to select race randomly, but reveal the race on the loading screen. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 03 2013 22:39 Salient wrote: Have fun while you still can. MsC Expand will be safe and economical vs all three races in HoTs. No more lucky free random wins. Random wins are free and lucky? There are probably tens of thousands of players (protoss) rated higher than you who have ascended beyond the asymptote which random ceases to exist almost entirely in the upper levels of ladder. They didn't get there by blaming all their problems on the game rather than themselves. On January 04 2013 00:22 kill619 wrote: Why are non-random players suppose to learn a safe against all and flexible opening while random players get to pick match-up specific builds? What makes Random players entitled to not having to play against people match up specific early-game's? Also, just because something has existed for 14 years doesn't make it great. What kind of question is that? If you want to beat random players with any remote consistency you will generally benefit from learning a build/mindset that beats random as a race. Why the fuck else would you learn such a build? Why should anyone learn to beat ANYTHING? It EXISTS and has to be DEALT with. It's the nature of the match-up. If you don't like it, that's fine; That's an opinion. But acknowledge the problem lies with you and not random. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On January 04 2013 00:22 kill619 wrote: Why are non-random players suppose to learn a safe against all and flexible opening while random players get to pick match-up specific builds? What makes Random players entitled to not having to play against people match up specific early-game's? Also, just because something has existed for 14 years doesn't make it great. either learn it and win, or don't learn it and continue to whine and lose. your choice. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9614 Posts
! rax expand can deal with most cheeses, whether you go mech (vs zerg) or bio (vs toss). Speaking from a gold level perspective, of course. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 04 2013 02:28 rd wrote: Random wins are free and lucky? There are probably tens of thousands of players (protoss) rated higher than you who have ascended beyond the asymptote which random ceases to exist almost entirely in the upper levels of ladder. They didn't get there by blaming all their problems on the game rather than themselves. What kind of question is that? If you want to beat random players with any remote consistency you will generally benefit from learning a build/mindset that beats random as a race. Why the fuck else would you learn such a build? Why should anyone learn to beat ANYTHING? It EXISTS and has to be DEALT with. It's the nature of the match-up. If you don't like it, that's fine; That's an opinion. But acknowledge the problem lies with you and not random. 1."learning a build/mindset that beats random as a race" Random isn't a race. Random doesn't have any units, any RvX builds, etc. Random is just the game picking a race for you and giving the random player the option to withhold the information of what race he's playing at the beginning of the game. There's no such thing as playing against "Random", it's just playing against T/P/Z with out the ability to know what race they are from the beginning of the game, eliminating the ability for the non-random player to choose match up specific openers. 2."It exist and has to be dealt with" Again, just because something exist doesn't mean that it should continue to do so or that people should just "deal with it". By your logic, why can't random players just deal with having their race relieved, or both players having their race's hidden instead of just one? You still didn't answer my question, why do random players deserve to avoid match up specific early game builds from their opponents while having that option available to them? | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On January 04 2013 00:22 kill619 wrote: Why are non-random players suppose to learn a safe against all and flexible opening while random players get to pick match-up specific builds? What makes Random players entitled to not having to play against people match up specific early-game's? Also, just because something has existed for 14 years doesn't make it great. What about Random vs Random? | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9614 Posts
On January 04 2013 11:08 kill619 wrote: 1."learning a build/mindset that beats random as a race" Random isn't a race. Random doesn't have any units, any RvX builds, etc. Random is just the game picking a race for you and giving the random player the option to withhold the information of what race he's playing at the beginning of the game. There's no such thing as playing against "Random", it's just playing against T/P/Z with out the ability to know what race they are from the beginning of the game, eliminating the ability for the non-random player to choose match up specific openers. 2."It exist and has to be dealt with" Again, just because something exist doesn't mean that it should continue to do so or that people should just "deal with it". By your logic, why can't random players just deal with having their race relieved, or both players having their race's hidden instead of just one? You still didn't answer my question, why do random players deserve to avoid match up specific early game builds from their opponents while having that option available to them? Maybe they don't deserve that. So don't play against them... Ladder points aren't very important, so just quit when you come up against random. Simple. Or alternatively, if you WANT to play against random players, because you want the ladder points, learn a safe all purpose build. To be honest, it doesn't matter what someone else deserves and what they don't, it is irrelevant. To be honest if it makes you that upset, you should chill a bit. I don't see how it could ruin your enjoyment of the game, just see it as a different kind of challenge. | ||
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SixtusTheFifth
New Zealand170 Posts
[G]VS Random On ladder and in forum you will occasionally find yourself dealing with a Random player. Anyone could occasionally play random, but there are certain people who are Random Players. One must know ones enemy, so what can be known about them? On December 27 2012 04:15 Emzeeshady wrote: The reason is that by playing random they are really screwing up that game. I want to play a game where I am able to practice and play standard and by playing random we are basically playing a pointless game where I would have to stay incredibly defensive and wait for their all in. If they really did want to play all three races they would just switch between the three instead of using the advantage they have to cheese. So we learn that random players all belong to a specific underclass of bottom dweller who
On December 28 2012 13:25 Emzeeshady wrote: This has nothing to do with my intentions. I have many practice partners but I want to be able to play vs a wide variety of strategies. The problem is if they are random I cannot play normal and therefore it does not help me do anything because I will not play that way in a normal match. No no, not at all. How dare any bottom dweller question your intentions? You are allowed to question their intentions, declare them in fact, but not the other way around. Next time though, when you say it's not about you, try not to mention yourself so often straight afterwards. If randoms ACTUALLY wanted to learn how to play all three races like they say they do (most of them in this thread are probably lying) then they would just pick a different race every game so that the match they play will actually play out noramlly. If they are just playing to have fun and try out some cheeses then sure play random but otherwise there is no reason to. Update: Random players all belong to a specific underclass of bottom dweller who
Does everyone understand the ground rules? Does everyone understand everything there is to know about bottom dwelling, lying, game spoiling, cheesing, motive hiding, liars who have no other reason to be cheese dwelling, game liars except they enjoy cheese filled bottoms? Good, with the foundation set we can look at a case study. Allow me to introduce Mateshade: On December 28 2012 14:19 MateShade wrote: I play randmo because its more fun not knowing which of the 9 matchups youre going to get. Its got nothing to do with trying out cheeses for most people He has stated opinions contrary to everything Emzeeshady has so kindly taught us about Random Players. Furthermore, and this will blow your mind, "I play randmo" is not a typo! He even lies when he says what race he plays! On December 28 2012 15:28 Emzeeshady wrote: pull stuff out of a hat? There are programs you can use to randomly select inputted options. Like seriously why would you spoil a game for another person to get a thrill over what race you pick in a video game? With rapier like thrusts and parries Emzeeshady has vanquished the foe. Declaring him to be a game spoiler for thrills, the light of truth is shone and the darkness must flee. Note our hero was not drawn on any specifics. Simpler to declare that the bottom dweller is pulling stuff out of a hat and leave the burden of proof on him. On December 28 2012 15:30 Emzeeshady wrote: A lot of randoms tell me their race but I can't trust them because like 25% lie about it... Now seems a good time to explain the exception to the 'pull stuff out of hats' and 'burden of proof' rules. The exception is: if you are not a bottom dwelling, cheese seeking, darkness hiding girl's blouse. I trust this summary of this thread, and the thread before that, and the thread before that, and the thread before that, and the thread before that, and the thread before that, and the thread before that, and the thread before that has been useful. Now you will be better prepared to deal with Random players on forum, if not on ladder. Somewhere in that last sentence is the answer to why there are so many of these damn threads. | ||
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nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
On January 04 2013 14:18 SixtusTheFifth wrote: [G]VS Random On ladder and in forum you will occasionally find yourself dealing with a Random player. Anyone could occasionally play random, but there are certain people who are Random Players. One must know ones enemy, so what can be known about them? So we learn that random players all belong to a specific underclass of bottom dweller who
No no, not at all. How dare any bottom dweller question your intentions? You are allowed to question their intentions, declare them in fact, but not the other way around. Next time though, when you say it's not about you, try not to mention yourself so often straight afterwards. Update: Random players all belong to a specific underclass of bottom dweller who
Does everyone understand the ground rules? Does everyone understand everything there is to know about bottom dwelling, lying, game spoiling, cheesing, motive hiding, liars who have no other reason to be cheese dwelling, game liars except they enjoy cheese filled bottoms? Good, with the foundation set we can look at a case study. Allow me to introduce Mateshade: He has stated opinions contrary to everything Emzeeshady has so kindly taught us about Random Players. Furthermore, and this will blow your mind, "I play randmo" is not a typo! He even lies when he says what race he plays! With rapier like thrusts and parries Emzeeshady has vanquished the foe. Declaring him to be a game spoiler for thrills, the light of truth is shone and the darkness must flee. Note our hero was not drawn on any specifics. Simpler to declare that the bottom dweller is pulling stuff out of a hat and leave the burden of proof on him. Now seems a good time to explain the exception to the 'pull stuff out of hats' and 'burden of proof' rules. The exception is: if you are not a bottom dwelling, cheese seeking, darkness hiding girl's blouse. I trust this summary of this thread, and the thread before that, and the thread before that, and the thread before that, and the thread before that, and the thread before that, and the thread before that, and the thread before that has been useful. Now you will be better prepared to deal with Random players on forum, if not on ladder. Somewhere in that last sentence is the answer to why there are so many of these damn threads. Lolll! I think we found a winner! You are a god amongst men my friend. | ||
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MChrome
Netherlands201 Posts
Since i recently got a lot less time to spend on SC2 i decided to switch to random and just try to have fun. Sometimes i cheese (Protoss are more difficult to learn than i expected, though Zerg was easier), but mostly i try to play macro games. I've recently started to just go for it and try to do carrier/ms rushes with Protoss XD The thing that baffled me though was that at one point i was on a 7 loss streak... And no rage, no nothing. I just kept going. I would have destroyed my keyboard at this point if i was playing just terran 0-o I'm very likely to be down to gold again, maybe even silver when i play my placement match later, but i honestly don't mind. Going random allowed me to just have fun and not worry about stuff like 'rank' and 'win/loss' | ||
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Shottaz
United Kingdom414 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 04 2013 11:08 kill619 wrote: 1."learning a build/mindset that beats random as a race" Random isn't a race. Random doesn't have any units, any RvX builds, etc. Random is just the game picking a race for you and giving the random player the option to withhold the information of what race he's playing at the beginning of the game. There's no such thing as playing against "Random", it's just playing against T/P/Z with out the ability to know what race they are from the beginning of the game, eliminating the ability for the non-random player to choose match up specific openers. 2."It exist and has to be dealt with" Again, just because something exist doesn't mean that it should continue to do so or that people should just "deal with it". By your logic, why can't random players just deal with having their race relieved, or both players having their race's hidden instead of just one? You still didn't answer my question, why do random players deserve to avoid match up specific early game builds from their opponents while having that option available to them? 1. Now we know where your problem is: You don't understand that random is a race. Random poses a problem which requires you to approach it with a solution unique from the other three traditional races. You have two choices in this regard: Accept that random has to be treated like a separate race to be played against properly, or embrace incompetence wasting effort to argue some asinine ideological point that accomplishes nothing. No shit it doesn't have the qualities of a traditional race. It's still a race in the sense it's qualities warrant enough differences to require a completely different playstyle. 2. And heres the other problem: No one cares what you think. Just because in your opinion it shouldn't continue to exist, doesn't mean your argument is granted amnesty and random should be removed. It's futile even attempting to address this because it'd simply acknowledge the implicit correctitude in which you speak to; the presumptuous confusion that asserts your opinion as fact. I can't re-iterate enough the fact that tens of thousands of players have gotten over the asymptotic point which random ceases to even exist in ladder. In a game of problems, they learned to deal with it and solve it. Random is the LEAST of your worries if you have any higher ambitions in Starcraft 2. edit: I answered your dumb question. They're a different race, and it's the quirk that makes them unique. The advantage they gain from this balances (not really) the fact that random is ridiculously difficult and unviable. You'd think a random would take a GSL title by now with how imbalanced their hidden race is. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 05 2013 00:27 rd wrote: 1. Now we know where your problem is: You don't understand that random is a race. Random poses a problem which requires you to approach it with a unique solution unlike the other three traditional races. You have two choices in this regard: Accept that random has to be treated like a separate race to be played against properly, or embrace incompetence wasting effort to argue some asinine ideological point that accomplishes nothing. No shit it doesn't have the qualities of a traditional race. It's still a race in the sense it's qualities warrant enough differences to require a completely different playstyle. 2. And heres the other problem: No one cares what you think. Just because in your opinion it shouldn't continue to exist, doesn't mean your argument is granted amnesty and random should be removed. It's futile even attempting to address this because it'd simply acknowledge the implicit correctitude in which you speak to; the presumptuous confusion that asserts your opinion as fact. I can't re-iterate enough the fact that tens of thousands of players have gotten over the asymptotic point which random ceases to even exist in ladder. In a game of problems, they learned to deal with it and solve it. Random is the LEAST of your worries if you have any higher ambitions in Starcraft 2. 1. Nope, the problem is that one player lacks information in the beginning of the game and the other player doesn't. One player has to do a sub-optimal build or attempt match up specific openings and gamble on his opponents race, and the other player doesn't have to do that. What I don't understand is why it's ok for only one player to get that information, instead of both or neither player having it. 2. Never said anything about wanting random being removed. Pretty sure I haven't given any suggestion on what I would change about random If I could. I simply asked why picking Random warrants the opponent, of course a non-random one, to not know his opponents race but to give that information to the random player. And it's not a matter of my opinion over any one else's. If somethings broken and it can be fixed it shouldn't be kept for tradition's sake."Why does a 14 year old function that's synonymous to our starcraft culture have to be removed because a few players are entitled?" was your quote I was referring to originally because it implied that because random has existed it its current form for 14 years that it should continue to do so and I'm just telling you that that's not a valid reason if you truly believe that. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
2. You suggest random to be removed as it currently functions, i.e. remove the hidden race mechanic; the only thing that makes random remotely advantageous. I don't see your purpose if not to just ask obviously dumb rhetorical questions with implicit ulterior motives. Yes, it is a matter of opinion. You AGAIN speak in the same matter-of-fact manner proposing random is broken, when it's not. All of your complaints bring up the advantages of playing random when the disadvantages massively overwhelm them. If random is broken and should be fixed, it needs buffs lol. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
2. Pretty sure I've only been trying to find out why this advantage exist, why random need's some sort of incentive to be played. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that. Yes, random, in some ways, is harder way to play, with or without your race being hidden, but that's the point. It's suppose to be challenge, there for people who want more of a challenge because the player finds picking their own race boring or too easy. So what's the point of creating more of an incentive than what would already exist if random didn't have the race hidden? Again, it's not an opinion. Stating that something exist != explaining why something exist or what purpose it serves. If you asked me, "Why is the sky blue?", and I responded, "It's always been that way" technically be correct but it would take away from the fact that my statement has nothing to do with why the sky is blue. The, "If somethings broken and it can be fixed it shouldn't be kept for tradition's sake", was a turn of phrase(?) not meant to be taken literally and in the context of our other argument. If something can be improved, the fact that it hasn't been for x amount of time isn't a reason against not doing it. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 05 2013 06:02 kill619 wrote: 1. You have to make quite a few assumption to assume that any given random player will, on average be worst, how ever your defining "worst", than his opponent. Even if those assumption could be made, which they can't be, why do random players deserve any advantage for willingly picking a, very arguably, harder race? 2. Pretty sure I've only been trying to find out why this advantage exist, why random need's some sort of incentive to be played. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that. Yes, random, in some ways, is harder way to play, with or without your race being hidden, but that's the point. It's suppose to be challenge, there for people who want more of a challenge because the player finds picking their own race boring or too easy. So what's the point of creating more of an incentive than what would already exist if random didn't have the race hidden? Again, it's not an opinion. Stating that something exist != explaining why something exist or what purpose it serves. If you asked me, "Why is the sky blue?", and I responded, "It's always been that way" technically be correct but it would take away from the fact that my statement has nothing to do with why the sky is blue. The, "If somethings broken and it can be fixed it shouldn't be kept for tradition's sake", was a turn of phrase(?) not meant to be taken literally and in the context of our other argument. If something can be improved, the fact that it hasn't been for x amount of time isn't a reason against not doing it. You might have to assume for any particular random opponent, but on average they're worse. If the race being hidden is indeed an advantage, then it will ultimately be reflected in winrates. If two equally skilled players fight on ladder where one is given this advantage, the advantaged player will win a little more and eventually move up in rating. He will fight slightly better opponents although not be completely even in skill (he has 3x the match-ups to account for), but he will be evenly rated. Random opponents, on average, are more likely to be worse at a given match-up than you for this reason, and random isn't the only race where this kind of artificial inflation of rating occurs; it occurs between all races at various levels of skill. The advantage wasn't given to them because they deserved it, it's because it's how it panned out. No one went into SC1 expecting it to transcend ladder, where players practiced 12 hours a day and that random would have to practice 36 hours a day to realistically keep up. There are many other features from Starcraft's inception that fell into and out of place following its entry e-sports. It's just how shit happened, and the shit that didn't interfere with SC2 ideas were brought over. There was absolutely nothing wrong with random and it was fun. Again, I don't understand your motive. You ask why random has to be X and X was spawned in someone's head to add to the game. There was no underlying reason for it, therefore, random exists because someone wanted it to exist; it was fun, and didn't take anything away from the game. Random is fundamentally flawed in the competitive sense that it will never be viable without drastic buffs to give random players many more advantages. It never really existed beyond it's fun role and it's been perfectly fine there. There isn't a problem. Revealing the race simply nerfs random for the sake of pleasing players with issues at the expense of random players who enjoy random for what it is. | ||
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Ashent
Korea (South)109 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 05 2013 08:46 Ashent wrote: Again, if an R player rolls Z in an RvP - and then just hatches first and plays out a 'normal' game against someone who did an uneconomical opening that they were forced into, how is that fun? How is that fair? He is statistically worse than the protoss on average. Why does anyone care if it's not fun to you? Muta base trades aren't fun therefore they aren't fair either; which I guess means they should be nerfed to satisfy what I want on ladder, lol. Tell me when a random manages to take a game off a relevant top level protoss when they hit zerg -- whenever a random can actually get within MMR range. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
I get that playing random is fun and isn't meant to and probably never will be viable, hidden race or not, at the highest levels of play, but something about giving players the option of any sort of an advantage in such a competitive setting as a ranked match making system, where most people care so much about winning as it is, seems misplaced. Maybe having it as an option in custom and arcade games would be fun, but feels like it contrast the competitive aesthetic(?) a match making system creates. Your last sentence seems a bit ironic.Of all the fun things about playing random the only things that's ruined by revealing the race is the ability to "have fun" at the expense of non-Random players. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 05 2013 08:58 kill619 wrote: If playing random is truly harder than main-ing a race, which I agree it is to an extent, and having your race hidden is an advantage, wouldn't the win rates for random only represent the diffidence in difficultly between picking a race and random not compensated for by your race being hidden, the compensation itself requiring some experimenting to even begin to quantify? Even if on average a random player will be worst than an equally ranked non random player, I don't understand why it makes since to introduce such an element of chance into the game. It seems so counter intuitive to go through the trouble of making a match making system that does such a good job of giving players such evenly matched opponents and such a balanced game to turn around and tell the player,"Is your opponent random? Man, better hope he's not good enough to overcome the disadvantage he gave him self combined with the advantage we gave him too". Random, or offracing, already messes with how the match making system interprets a players skill, so I don't understand how they could think it would be a good idea to mess with it a little more by hiding the race. The only advantage I can think of to this whole thing is that the advantage in the early game allows random players to win more in their weaker match ups(kinda have to exclude higher level play where the gimmicks aren't enough to overcome skill) lowering their mmr's uncertainty, making their ranking slightly more accurate and making Random player's games "closer". Even that explanation is trumped by the fact that they could have just had separate ranks for each race on an account and have the "Random" option just tap into one of those ranks. I get that playing random is fun and isn't meant to and probably never will be viable, hidden race or not, at the highest levels of play, but something about giving players the option of any sort of an advantage in such a competitive setting as a ranked match making system, where most people care so much about winning as it is, seems misplaced. Maybe having it as an option in custom and arcade games would be fun, but feels like it contrast the competitive aesthetic(?) a match making system creates. Your last sentence seems a bit ironic.Of all the fun things about playing random the only things that's ruined by revealing the race is the ability to "have fun" at the expense of non-Random players. That's a very general issue with match-making though, lol. When you queue up against the random player who's as good as you, you're basically queueing against a slightly favored opponent. You're just as likely to hit the random whos on par with you in a match-up as you are hitting up a Terran who is simply a better player -- he doesn't even have to be rated higher either. Either way, there are way too few random players to dent the ladder's rating inflation. The entirety of the match-making rating system is shaken by much more common abuses of rating inflation/deflation: You could be a Zerg with a sick ZvP but terrible ZvT. Any protoss you fight will get stomped as your MMR is held back by the fact you lose more often than normal to Terran. You could simply be smurfing and purposefully tanking your MMR to stomp lowbies. MMR inflation is pretty normal, and random is by far one of the most benign forms of it. In a game with multiple races you can't expect people to be equally competent against all three of them -- let alone be trusted to exert their full effort and achieve their proper rating. Random doesn't really have any advantages in an even rating setting. If it were a perfect world maybe randoms would be slightly better, but the nature of ladder means you will never always have an even match-up with ANY race; random included. Theres nothing wrong with random in a competitive setting where skill levels vary pretty wildly. You generally break even at equal ratings, and you have occasional favored for and against with all races including random. The only time random is really affected by ladder is when the skill levels asymptote at top ratings and random players can no longer win by being better than their opponent. Every race has early game advantages, but because they're advantages of a traditional race it's okay -- fuck random. Random exists with hidden races. It's not the other way around. Non-random players bear the burden that it's a material fact of life; you dont simply wish it gone. You can literally take that exact idea and strawman it to oblivion with ANYTHING in starcraft 2 that isn't fun: Ling run-by's are fun for zerg at the expense of Terran and Protoss, etc. SC2 is a game of solving problems. Problems aren't always fun. If you don't enjoy brick walls, SC2 probably isn't for you. | ||
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SixtusTheFifth
New Zealand170 Posts
On January 05 2013 08:58 kill619 wrote: Your last sentence seems a bit ironic.Of all the fun things about playing random the only things that's ruined by revealing the race is the ability to "have fun" at the expense of non-Random players. This sentence is ironic in the context of all your other backdowns and retractions. On January 05 2013 06:02 kill619 wrote: 2. Pretty sure I've only been trying to find out why this advantage exist, why random need's some sort of incentive to be played. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that. Yes, random, in some ways, is harder way to play, with or without your race being hidden, but that's the point. It's suppose to be challenge, there for people who want more of a challenge because the player finds picking their own race boring or too easy. So what's the point of creating more of an incentive than what would already exist if random didn't have the race hidden? ...The, "If somethings broken and it can be fixed it shouldn't be kept for tradition's sake", was a turn of phrase(?) not meant to be taken literally and in the context of our other argument. If something can be improved, the fact that it hasn't been for x amount of time isn't a reason against not doing it. See that there? That's you, ONE POST ago where you, quite correctly, felt the need to try much harder to get your point across. And now you come up with this gem where you have taken RD out of context and reinforced the ideas that are already permanently lodged in your brain which you will end up clarifing later, whereupon you will type without thinking at the first opportunity and the thread will spin off for another 5 pages. Let me break it down for you: On January 05 2013 08:46 Ashent wrote: Again, if an R player rolls Z in an RvP - and then just hatches first and plays out a 'normal' game against someone who did an uneconomical opening that they were forced into, how is that fun? How is that fair? So yes, we are talking Random vs some poor poor poor disadvantaged soul who would be in Masters by now were it not for the veritable legions of Random players exploiting their advantages at the fun of blah blah blah. On January 05 2013 08:58 rd wrote: Why does anyone care if it's not fun to you? This is all your brain chose to process before you enlightened us with all with your reply, but just take a step back now and... On January 05 2013 08:58 rd wrote: He is statistically worse than the protoss on average. Why does anyone care if it's not fun to you? Muta base trades aren't fun therefore they aren't fair either; which I guess means they should be nerfed to satisfy what I want on ladder, lol. Tell me when a random manages to take a game off a relevant top level protoss when they hit zerg -- whenever a random can actually get within MMR range. Kaboom baby. Now look at all these other words that need to be looked at. So the context of not caring about the fun of your opponent was in the context of the ladder in general, not specifically Random players. So if you read more, and type less, you can save us all this bother. I thought I'd point that out to you since you're so concerned about other people's fun and all. | ||
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Silentness
United States2821 Posts
lol random vs random is a true mind fuck. Especially when I get protoss as random | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 05 2013 09:30 rd wrote: That's a very general issue with match-making though, lol. When you queue up against the random player who's as good as you, you're basically queueing against a slightly favored opponent. You're just as likely to hit the random whos on par with you in a match-up as you are hitting up a Terran who is simply a better player -- he doesn't even have to be rated higher either. Either way, there are way too few random players to dent the ladder's rating inflation. The entirety of the match-making rating system is shaken by much more common abuses of rating inflation/deflation: You could be a Zerg with a sick ZvP but terrible ZvT. Any protoss you fight will get stomped as your MMR is held back by the fact you lose more often than normal to Terran. You could simply be smurfing and purposefully tanking your MMR to stomp lowbies. MMR inflation is pretty normal, and random is by far one of the most benign forms of it. In a game with multiple races you can't expect people to be equally competent against all three of them -- let alone be trusted to exert their full effort and achieve their proper rating. Random doesn't really have any advantages in an even rating setting. If it were a perfect world maybe randoms would be slightly better, but the nature of ladder means you will never always have an even match-up with ANY race; random included. Theres nothing wrong with random in a competitive setting where skill levels vary pretty wildly. You generally break even at equal ratings, and you have occasional favored for and against with all races including random. The only time random is really affected by ladder is when the skill levels asymptote at top ratings and random players can no longer win by being better than their opponent. Every race has early game advantages, but because they're advantages of a traditional race it's okay -- fuck random. Random exists with hidden races. It's not the other way around. Non-random players bear the burden that it's a material fact of life; you dont simply wish it gone. You can literally take that exact idea and strawman it to oblivion with ANYTHING in starcraft 2 that isn't fun: Ling run-by's are fun for zerg at the expense of Terran and Protoss, etc. SC2 is a game of solving problems. Problems aren't always fun. If you don't enjoy brick walls, SC2 probably isn't for you. 1.Sure, I'd agree that's a problem with the match making system that I would also argue is made worst by having random, in any form, as an option, but for the sake of staying on topic lets just assume that were talking about a RvX game where no matter what match up gets rolled that the Random player is of the same skill level as his opponent, seeing as how that't the only way you could balance Starcraft and it's match making system based on player skill.(if were gonna keep talking about this) 2. "Random doesn't really have any advantages in an even rating setting" I don't even know where you stand on this any more. "The advantage wasn't given to them because they deserved it" "The race being hidden balances this out just a little to alleviate the difficulty." "You suggest random to be removed as it currently functions, i.e. remove the hidden race mechanic; the only thing that makes random remotely advantageous" "All of your complaints bring up the advantages of playing random when the disadvantages massively overwhelm them." "The advantage they gain from this balances (not really) the fact that random is ridiculously difficult and unviable." These are all things quoted directly from you in the past page of this thread. If you don't think the problem exist, I play terran but iirc there are some problems with ZvR and PvR openings that have talked about plenty of times before, probably even in this thread. If you do think it exist, then welcome back to the conversation. There's an advantage, also acting as an incentive, to the race option Random in the form of hiding the Random players race. The advantage isn't enough to matter at the highest skill levels, but it's still enough to alter how matches are played and their outcomes just about every where else. From the player perspective, it creates trolls who play random to abuse the lack of information a non-Random opponent suffers from and introduces an element of chance into an otherwise very skill driven game. By the way, I'm not saying that every person playing random is doing so to abuse it, but that there are players who purposely opt to not reveal their race, abuse their opponents lack of information, and bm opponents for the advantage that was given to them by the game hiding their race. From the match making perspective, It gives random players the option to inflate their mmr by winning games, with the help of the advantage given to them, against opponents that they may not have been capable of beating if both players had had the the same information of each others race at the very beginning of the game. So why does it exist? The only answer that makes any sense is that it's suppose to be an incentive to players to play mulitplayer in a more challenging way than picking their own race, but even in that case why do you need an incentive attched to playing random and, if it's really necessary incentivise playing random, why would make that incentive something as game altering as hiding one players race? More or better portriats, decals, just about anything cosmetic really, getting more ladder point for wins, etc. would have made for fine incentives without messing with other players experience of the multiplayer. I just don't understand why they would make this decision. | ||
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Dirkinity
Germany409 Posts
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Latringuden
Sweden79 Posts
On January 05 2013 13:02 kill619 wrote: From the player perspective, it creates trolls who play random to abuse the lack of information a non-Random opponent suffers from and introduces an element of chance into an otherwise very skill driven game. By the way, I'm not saying that every person playing random is doing so to abuse it, but that there are players who purposely opt to not reveal their race, abuse their opponents lack of information, and bm opponents for the advantage that was given to them by the game hiding their race. From the match making perspective, It gives random players the option to inflate their mmr by winning games, with the help of the advantage given to them, against opponents that they may not have been capable of beating if both players had had the the same information of each others race at the very beginning of the game. So why does it exist? The only answer that makes any sense is that it's suppose to be an incentive to players to play mulitplayer in a more challenging way than picking their own race, but even in that case why do you need an incentive attched to playing random and, if it's really necessary incentivise playing random, why would make that incentive something as game altering as hiding one players race? More or better portriats, decals, just about anything cosmetic really, getting more ladder point for wins, etc. would have made for fine incentives without messing with other players experience of the multiplayer. I just don't understand why they would make this decision. All of your assumtions are only viable because of one thing: fog of war and the need to scout your opponent. The only matchup where you have to change your build is PvR. ZvR and TvR has the same viable build orders for you to be able to scout your opponent in time. And for PvR its only PvP that your really cant go FE (and even with that in mind you can pull it off if you have better micro). For all other matchups the deciding factor of your build is not the random opponent but the map. Is it a big 4-player map? Well, then a FE is viable for all matchups "except" PvP. Is it a smaller 2-player map? Well then you can scout your opponent first to check his race before decide wheter you FE or not. As for trolls all players has the same advantage on 4-player maps. Any Zerg rush is faster then a FE, proxy gates are equally hard to deal with and proxy barracks won IM-MVP a GSL Code S title vs Squirtle. And yes, this can and has been abused to inflate your MMR. But then you have the problem that if you inflate your MMR you will start loosing terribly when you start playing normal again which makes it a non issue. Trolls are not bound to the Random race and will never be. If you think about it, why would you roll Random if you want to go abusive early rushes? The only advantage is that your opponent won't know your race. An unscouted cheese will win 70-80% of the time even IF the opponent knows your race and this should be about the same for Random players. That's why it's cheese. The Random factor will once again make it so the Random-player have to know more cheeses (not that it's that much work but if you want to inflate your MMR easily why learn more cheese builds?). And cheeseing as a Random player has the disadvantage that your opponent NEEDS to scout you. He WILL scout you. And then he will scout your cheese. This is not the case for all other MO's. My incentive for playing Random is that I've always done it and I love all the races (including Random) in their own way. Some people have said that you should just go 5 games for each race and repeat because Random is OP. This is not the same as playing Random. When the game starts I'm as suprised as you when you scout me. In my mind I always go "Fuck, so what do I do now? What race was he? Where is he?". And that's enough of a challange for me to think my pretty average high plat random play is fun. Without it I would just be grinding since I will always have a 50-50 win rate because of the MMR-system. TL;DR: You won't know if your opponent will rush/early push/preassure you even if you know your opponents race if you don't scout. The Random players should always be scouted early. This makes Random a non-issue and just gives more joy to the player who enjoys playing Random. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On January 05 2013 19:42 Latringuden wrote: TL;DR: You won't know if your opponent will rush/early push/preassure you even if you know your opponents race if you don't scout. The Random players should always be scouted early. This makes Random a non-issue and just gives more joy to the player who enjoys playing Random. This just isn't true, at all. I played random at a high masters/low GM MMR for 2 seasons straight a while back and I can attest to the fact that being random is a huge advantage. They can't scout you early enough to know whether a 14p or a 15 hatch is the right choice, or if they should ffe or gate expand, etc. It's not JUST PvR. ZvR and sometimes even TvR can mean you want to go for a different build, and there's no reason for it. And even having to scout early enough to be able to alter your build order (especially in something like a PvP) gives your opponent a pretty significant advantage. I stopped playing random because of that advantage and it's actually no different. I don't see how someone could argue the fact that they get more "joy" from having their opponents NOT know what race they are. The other player should be able to see what race you got on the loading screen or by pressing the button at the top right; seeing "random" is unfun as shit for the enemy and really doesn't add any joy that couldn't be kept by making random show the race in the loading screen for your average player. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 05 2013 13:02 kill619 wrote: 1.Sure, I'd agree that's a problem with the match making system that I would also argue is made worst by having random, in any form, as an option, but for the sake of staying on topic lets just assume that were talking about a RvX game where no matter what match up gets rolled that the Random player is of the same skill level as his opponent, seeing as how that't the only way you could balance Starcraft and it's match making system based on player skill.(if were gonna keep talking about this) 2. "Random doesn't really have any advantages in an even rating setting" I don't even know where you stand on this any more. "The advantage wasn't given to them because they deserved it" "The race being hidden balances this out just a little to alleviate the difficulty." "You suggest random to be removed as it currently functions, i.e. remove the hidden race mechanic; the only thing that makes random remotely advantageous" "All of your complaints bring up the advantages of playing random when the disadvantages massively overwhelm them." "The advantage they gain from this balances (not really) the fact that random is ridiculously difficult and unviable." These are all things quoted directly from you in the past page of this thread. If you don't think the problem exist, I play terran but iirc there are some problems with ZvR and PvR openings that have talked about plenty of times before, probably even in this thread. If you do think it exist, then welcome back to the conversation. There's an advantage, also acting as an incentive, to the race option Random in the form of hiding the Random players race. The advantage isn't enough to matter at the highest skill levels, but it's still enough to alter how matches are played and their outcomes just about every where else. From the player perspective, it creates trolls who play random to abuse the lack of information a non-Random opponent suffers from and introduces an element of chance into an otherwise very skill driven game. By the way, I'm not saying that every person playing random is doing so to abuse it, but that there are players who purposely opt to not reveal their race, abuse their opponents lack of information, and bm opponents for the advantage that was given to them by the game hiding their race. From the match making perspective, It gives random players the option to inflate their mmr by winning games, with the help of the advantage given to them, against opponents that they may not have been capable of beating if both players had had the the same information of each others race at the very beginning of the game. So why does it exist? The only answer that makes any sense is that it's suppose to be an incentive to players to play mulitplayer in a more challenging way than picking their own race, but even in that case why do you need an incentive attched to playing random and, if it's really necessary incentivise playing random, why would make that incentive something as game altering as hiding one players race? More or better portriats, decals, just about anything cosmetic really, getting more ladder point for wins, etc. would have made for fine incentives without messing with other players experience of the multiplayer. I just don't understand why they would make this decision. You're mixing up three separate ideas. Let me summarize my statements: Even rating =/= even skill level. Random's MMR gets slightly inflated by the fact the race is hidden, so a random player is on average worse at an even rating, but has an equal chance to win. At an even skill level they're likely favored just a little in rating. This interaction only exists in the lower leagues because everyone has the capacity to have such hugely varying skill differences -- this is infinitely more impactful than ANY advantage one particular race can offer. When you get to high levels the random player can no longer outplay opponents to the extent he did before; the advantage of the hidden race is made all but irrelevant. Ladder inflation isn't a problem as much as it's a simple fact of life on ladder. It's not an issue of random, it's just the nature of how the ladder attempts to gauge skill. If theres a problem at all it's with the ladder system itself, and you'll probably never get a system more accurate with multiple races (keyword: multiple races cause inflation not random). You're also taking a bunch of issues that are general to the ladder and the playerbase and associating it with random, and then presumptuously touting random as the problem behind it. ALL races have trolls; ALL races have advantages that incentivize playing them; ALL races have portraits and decals; ALL races are capable of being played for fun -- and given how few random players there are, random represents the least trolls of any race. Baseless complaints amount to evidence only of an issue with a player who can't deal with random and not random itself. Stop acknowledging them, lol. Seriously. Should EVERY complaint be acknowledged as an issue of the game? You have yet to prove anything other than random is irrelevant -- but certainly not an issue. | ||
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Latringuden
Sweden79 Posts
On January 05 2013 19:53 Skwid1g wrote: This just isn't true, at all. I played random at a high masters/low GM MMR for 2 seasons straight a while back and I can attest to the fact that being random is a huge advantage. They can't scout you early enough to know whether a 14p or a 15 hatch is the right choice, or if they should ffe or gate expand, etc. It's not JUST PvR. ZvR and sometimes even TvR can mean you want to go for a different build, and there's no reason for it. And even having to scout early enough to be able to alter your build order (especially in something like a PvP) gives your opponent a pretty significant advantage. I stopped playing random because of that advantage and it's actually no different. I don't see how someone could argue the fact that they get more "joy" from having their opponents NOT know what race they are. The other player should be able to see what race you got on the loading screen or by pressing the button at the top right; seeing "random" is unfun as shit for the enemy and really doesn't add any joy that couldn't be kept by making random show the race in the loading screen for your average player. I don't argue that I get joy from my opponent not knowing what race I am. I get joy from not knowing what race I will be. Since I will not be prepared for that I can't just decide what build I will use in advance but when the game has already started. So sure, add it in the allies button, that's a good idea since it seems to be a mental problem for a lot of people. In what case will a 15 hatch not be viable in ZvR? Against a rush? Well, that's because a rush will be hard when you FE. The 40 minerals per minute that one scout worker would provide might be a big deal in the pro level but this will almost never be the case at any other level. So yeah, you might have had that experince. This is not the same below high master/GM. Afaik 15 hatch 15 pool would be viable against everything except non-scouted cheese. Same goes for 1rax fe and even the standard mech opening. When you have your rax up you should have scouted your opponent already so you know if it's an early preassure or not. And all this boils down to the fact that laddering doesn't use cross spawns and there are 4-player maps where you will have a harder time scouting your opponent. Not to the fact that it's vs a Random player. If the Random advantage was huge we would see masters/diamond filled with random players. According to sc2ranks.com the 10th best Random player in NA is #545 in his region. There are only 7 random players world wide within the 100th best in their region (6 in Southeast Asia). There is no advantage in a ladder setting, maybe in some MO's. But not across the board. Which is how Random is played. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 05 2013 19:55 rd wrote: You're mixing up three separate ideas. Let me summarize my statements: Even rating =/= even skill level. Random's MMR gets slightly inflated by the fact the race is hidden, so a random player is on average worse at an even rating, but has an equal chance to win. At an even skill level they're likely favored just a little in rating. This interaction only exists in the lower leagues because everyone has the capacity to have such hugely varying skill differences -- this is infinitely more impactful than ANY advantage one particular race can offer. When you get to high levels the random player can no longer outplay opponents to the extent he did before; the advantage of the hidden race is made all but irrelevant. Ladder inflation isn't a problem as much as it's a simple fact of life on ladder. It's not an issue of random, it's just the nature of how the ladder attempts to gauge skill. If theres a problem at all it's with the ladder system itself, and you'll probably never get a system more accurate with multiple races (keyword: multiple races cause inflation not random). You're also taking a bunch of issues that are general to the ladder and the playerbase and associating it with random, and then presumptuously touting random as the problem behind it. ALL races have trolls; ALL races have advantages that incentivize playing them; ALL races have portraits and decals; ALL races are capable of being played for fun -- and given how few random players there are, random represents the least trolls of any race. Baseless complaints amount to evidence only of an issue with a player who can't deal with random and not random itself. Stop acknowledging them, lol. Seriously. Should EVERY complaint be acknowledged as an issue of the game? You have yet to prove anything other than random is irrelevant -- but certainly not an issue. Random's MMR gets slightly inflated by the fact the race is hidden, so a random player is on average worse at an even rating Saying it's inflated because of hidden race(HR) assumes that a Random player is benefiting from their advantage and saying that a random player of even rating is, on average, worse than their opponent(ie. not a 50% chance of winning) assumes that that same player would decide to stop using their advantage, despite it still being available to them. The first assumption can be made, but the second can't, at the very least not simultaneously. Unless I'm misinterpreting you and your referring to the players whose mmr will be inflated to the threshold of mmr's where players' skill negates the advantage, which I would predict is still well above the majority of the 1v1 population on any server, and thus worth looking into if not to make any changes to random at least understand why it exists with HR. That aside, I did and still do agree with you that there is a problem with the match making system, but would go further to say that random, HR or not, exacerbates the problem. Hypothesizing that if the problem exist because of how much variance in skill one account can have in 3(4) match ups as a race picker, then the option of random having 9(12) allows for more variance in skill that one's rank has to attempt to account for. It creates a larger uncertainty(Standard deviation) for your mmr than what already exist if the player were only playing one race, resulting in less evenly skilled matches and a less effective match making system. HR, however, doesn't have much to do the topic,as interesting a topic it is. When HR is thrown in to the equation, as you said, it inflates the average rank of random players up until an unspecified "high level of play". A sort of icing on the cake that is a match making system that still has room for improvement. The match making probably could have been designed in such a way that an account is given an mmr for every specific match up in the game(Random not included) and use that mmr, for race pickers and random players,to be used for match making. I suppose my troll argument is based on the fact that HR gives you the opportunity to win games vs players you wouldn't be able to beat without it and the assumption, imo a safe one but still one that doesn't have any proof, that most players are more annoyed and flustered by bm during or after losing than they are by listening to whine after beating a bm'er. I'll concede that point. I'm not out to prove anything or bash anyone, just interested in why HR exist. If it's there to be a fun and different way to play the game, why introduce the mechanic to ranked match-making and force people who are, can be somewhat assumed if there playing ranked making, looking to play the most competitive and skill based mode multiplayer has to offer to deal with HR? It's not like random suddenly becomes pointless to play if the races where revealed, there are plenty of random players who already willingly reveal their race. There are so many reasons that exist outside of the HR advantage for wanting to play random, so if it's suppose to be purely an incentive to play as random I don't really understand that either. Like I said a few post ago, there are so many other incentives that could have been used that wouldn't alter how the game functions. What's the need for an incentive to play random anyway? Even if they went about it in such a way that didn't affect game play or the ranking system, what to be gained from doing exactly? What's to be gained by trying to get more people to play random? I don't see the motive behind all of it. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
If you care about stupid fking virtual points, i can guarantee with near certainty that you have bm'd someone or cheesed someone at some point and you don't sit there thinking about how to maximize other people's enjoyment. This entire thread is hilarious and sad at the same time. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 05 2013 23:47 kill619 wrote: Saying it's inflated because of hidden race(HR) assumes that a Random player is benefiting from their advantage and saying that a random player of even rating is, on average, worse than their opponent(ie. not a 50% chance of winning) assumes that that same player would decide to stop using their advantage, despite it still being available to them. The first assumption can be made, but the second can't, at the very least not simultaneously. Unless I'm misinterpreting you and your referring to the players whose mmr will be inflated to the threshold of mmr's where players' skill negates the advantage, which I would predict is still well above the majority of the 1v1 population on any server, and thus worth looking into if not to make any changes to random at least understand why it exists with HR. That aside, I did and still do agree with you that there is a problem with the match making system, but would go further to say that random, HR or not, exacerbates the problem. Hypothesizing that if the problem exist because of how much variance in skill one account can have in 3(4) match ups as a race picker, then the option of random having 9(12) allows for more variance in skill that one's rank has to attempt to account for. It creates a larger uncertainty(Standard deviation) for your mmr than what already exist if the player were only playing one race, resulting in less evenly skilled matches and a less effective match making system. HR, however, doesn't have much to do the topic,as interesting a topic it is. When HR is thrown in to the equation, as you said, it inflates the average rank of random players up until an unspecified "high level of play". A sort of icing on the cake that is a match making system that still has room for improvement. The match making probably could have been designed in such a way that an account is given an mmr for every specific match up in the game(Random not included) and use that mmr, for race pickers and random players,to be used for match making. I suppose my troll argument is based on the fact that HR gives you the opportunity to win games vs players you wouldn't be able to beat without it and the assumption, imo a safe one but still one that doesn't have any proof, that most players are more annoyed and flustered by bm during or after losing than they are by listening to whine after beating a bm'er. I'll concede that point. I'm not out to prove anything or bash anyone, just interested in why HR exist. If it's there to be a fun and different way to play the game, why introduce the mechanic to ranked match-making and force people who are, can be somewhat assumed if there playing ranked making, looking to play the most competitive and skill based mode multiplayer has to offer to deal with HR? It's not like random suddenly becomes pointless to play if the races where revealed, there are plenty of random players who already willingly reveal their race. There are so many reasons that exist outside of the HR advantage for wanting to play random, so if it's suppose to be purely an incentive to play as random I don't really understand that either. Like I said a few post ago, there are so many other incentives that could have been used that wouldn't alter how the game functions. What's the need for an incentive to play random anyway? Even if they went about it in such a way that didn't affect game play or the ranking system, what to be gained from doing exactly? What's to be gained by trying to get more people to play random? I don't see the motive behind all of it. Theres no assumption at all: They have the advantage and utilize it, otherwise they'd have to be significantly better (not at a specific match-up but all-round) to fight on par with a worse opponent at an even rating. But none of that has anything to do with why HR exists. HR has always been on random and it simply worked out the way it does now. It wasn't a calculated decision after observation of random on ladder (or maybe it was, but I highly doubt it). There could be 30% of players playing random and it wouldn't have any effect on the ladder's inflation The system itself can't accurately pin a player to their rating with multiple races and create perfectly even matches; nor will it ever. Ladder wasn't made to create a high level competitive environment akin to tournament level metagames. Even without random, ladder has always had its own metagame. If someone actually has ambitions to reach the top, then random is by far the least of their problems -- yet like all problems, random has a capacity to be solved and defeated consistently at even ratings. Players don't have the freedom to complain how they'd like that altered to their advantage; just an opinion on whether they personally like it. You don't walk into a PvZ and ignore the threat of speedlings, refuse to simcity, and then turn around and bitch when you lose your workers to a run-by because speedlings alter the way a protoss prefers to function. It's a ridiculous point that exhumes entitlement. You're also speaking for a very small vocal minority, who have a legitimate bias when random is outnumbered massively in SC2. And incentives? A player that likes making tons of cheap units is incentivized to play zerg. A player that likes to build gigantic deathballs is generally more interested in protoss. SC2 is a game of strength and weaknesses; you simply can't begrudge random because it has strengths of it's own too, citing how random shouldn't be offered 'incentives' to play. If they really wanted to give an incentive to play random they'd buff it. It's just how it is. Theres no further logic then that. Every single point you bring up applies to EVERY in starcraft 2; moreso than random, even. As long as there are multiple races, random included, people will get upset at the other two (three) races, because losing in a difficult game isn't fun. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On January 05 2013 19:53 Skwid1g wrote: This just isn't true, at all. I played random at a high masters/low GM MMR for 2 seasons straight a while back and I can attest to the fact that being random is a huge advantage. They can't scout you early enough to know whether a 14p or a 15 hatch is the right choice, or if they should ffe or gate expand, etc. It's not JUST PvR. ZvR and sometimes even TvR can mean you want to go for a different build, and there's no reason for it. And even having to scout early enough to be able to alter your build order (especially in something like a PvP) gives your opponent a pretty significant advantage. I stopped playing random because of that advantage and it's actually no different. I don't see how someone could argue the fact that they get more "joy" from having their opponents NOT know what race they are. The other player should be able to see what race you got on the loading screen or by pressing the button at the top right; seeing "random" is unfun as shit for the enemy and really doesn't add any joy that couldn't be kept by making random show the race in the loading screen for your average player. Excellent post | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On January 05 2013 19:53 Skwid1g wrote: This just isn't true, at all. I played random at a high masters/low GM MMR for 2 seasons straight a while back and I can attest to the fact that being random is a huge advantage. They can't scout you early enough to know whether a 14p or a 15 hatch is the right choice, or if they should ffe or gate expand, etc. It's not JUST PvR. ZvR and sometimes even TvR can mean you want to go for a different build, and there's no reason for it. And even having to scout early enough to be able to alter your build order (especially in something like a PvP) gives your opponent a pretty significant advantage. I stopped playing random because of that advantage and it's actually no different. I don't see how someone could argue the fact that they get more "joy" from having their opponents NOT know what race they are. The other player should be able to see what race you got on the loading screen or by pressing the button at the top right; seeing "random" is unfun as shit for the enemy and really doesn't add any joy that couldn't be kept by making random show the race in the loading screen for your average player. so, why arent professional competitive players capitalizing on this "huge advantage?" | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
On January 06 2013 11:37 dAPhREAk wrote: so, why arent professional competitive players capitalizing on this "huge advantage?" Pretty sure you're just baiting so I guess I might fill it in? Maps. Experience. They can try to cheese. There are safe openings. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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AirbladeOrange
United States2573 Posts
On January 06 2013 12:43 dAPhREAk wrote: not really baiting. just saying that the whole idea that there is a "huge advantage" to playing random, and the fact that nobody who plays this game for a living plays random do not make sense. Maybe the advantage one gets from playing random is greatly diminished the more skilled player someone is. | ||
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Immutant
Singapore201 Posts
On January 06 2013 14:09 AirbladeOrange wrote: Maybe the advantage one gets from playing random is greatly diminished the more skilled player someone is. That's right, that's why people should focus on improving their skills, instead of complaining about random players. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 06 2013 01:51 rd wrote: Theres no assumption at all: They have the advantage and utilize it, otherwise they'd have to be significantly better (not at a specific match-up but all-round) to fight on par with a worse opponent at an even rating. But none of that has anything to do with why HR exists. HR has always been on random and it simply worked out the way it does now. It wasn't a calculated decision after observation of random on ladder (or maybe it was, but I highly doubt it). There could be 30% of players playing random and it wouldn't have any effect on the ladder's inflation The system itself can't accurately pin a player to their rating with multiple races and create perfectly even matches; nor will it ever. Ladder wasn't made to create a high level competitive environment akin to tournament level metagames. Even without random, ladder has always had its own metagame. If someone actually has ambitions to reach the top, then random is by far the least of their problems -- yet like all problems, random has a capacity to be solved and defeated consistently at even ratings. Players don't have the freedom to complain how they'd like that altered to their advantage; just an opinion on whether they personally like it. You don't walk into a PvZ and ignore the threat of speedlings, refuse to simcity, and then turn around and bitch when you lose your workers to a run-by because speedlings alter the way a protoss prefers to function. It's a ridiculous point that exhumes entitlement. You're also speaking for a very small vocal minority, who have a legitimate bias when random is outnumbered massively in SC2. And incentives? A player that likes making tons of cheap units is incentivized to play zerg. A player that likes to build gigantic deathballs is generally more interested in protoss. SC2 is a game of strength and weaknesses; you simply can't begrudge random because it has strengths of it's own too, citing how random shouldn't be offered 'incentives' to play. If they really wanted to give an incentive to play random they'd buff it. It's just how it is. Theres no further logic then that. Every single point you bring up applies to EVERY in starcraft 2; moreso than random, even. As long as there are multiple races, random included, people will get upset at the other two (three) races, because losing in a difficult game isn't fun. Ladder wasn't made to create a high level competitive environment akin to tournament level metagames. Then why is it designed to give players the most evenly skilled opponents it possibly can? Why does it rank players according to their skill? I think our definitions of a "competitive environment" are very different, but either way i don't think it relates to the problem I'm having understanding HR's existence. So you seem to think that random HR is no different than any other advantage than that of picking a race, and that questioning why HR exist is no different than questioning why any of the other race specific advantages exist. I think I found a video that explains the concept that I haven't been able to put into words that's very relevant to HR. A mechanic or ability in a multiplayer game should increase the number of meaningful choices available to the player using it and the player it's being used on. In the context of our argument, HR is bad counter-play. While its fun and gives more options for the player picking random , in the form of the ability to abuse their opponents lack of information, it also limits what the non-random player can and can't, at least not safely, do in the beginning of the game. So if you could agree that HR is bad counter-play, then why is it still in the game? It's been in Starcraft since the beginning, made into to WOL and so far seems like it's going to be in HOTS. It's hard to believe that through 14+ years of developing and tweaking such a well designed game in so many other regards that no one at blizzard ever stopped to see that this was not a good idea and fix it. It only leaves that there's some underlying reason, that isn't simply incompetence, that it's still there, but what is that reason? I just. Don't. Get it. | ||
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Latringuden
Sweden79 Posts
On January 06 2013 17:47 kill619 wrote: Then why is it designed to give players the most evenly skilled opponents it possibly can? Why does it rank players according to their skill? I think our definitions of a "competitive environment" are very different, but either way i don't think it relates to the problem I'm having understanding HR's existence. So you seem to think that random HR is no different than any other advantage than that of picking a race, and that questioning why HR exist is no different than questioning why any of the other race specific advantages exist. I think I found a video that explains the concept that I haven't been able to put into words that's very relevant to HR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g In the context of our argument, HR is bad counter-play. While its fun and gives more options for the player picking random , in the form of the ability to abuse their opponents lack of information, it also limits what the non-random player can and can't, at least not safely, do in the beginning of the game. So if you could agree that HR is bad counter-play, then why is it still in the game? It's been in Starcraft since the beginning, made into to WOL and so far seems like it's going to be in HOTS. It's hard to believe that through 14+ years of developing and tweaking such a well designed game in so many other regards that no one at blizzard ever stopped to see that this was not a good idea and fix it. It only leaves that there's some underlying reason, that isn't simply incompetence, that it's still there, but what is that reason? I just. Don't. Get it. I'll but in and say while I agree on all the points in the video I don't think that HR is the main concern for how you play against the Random race in SC2, it always comes down to hidden build orders and the meta game. These two factors are what should be defining your play, not HR. The only reason not to scout in any MO is the meta game - the assumptions that player A makes on how player B will play and vice versa. These assumptions shouldn't be applied to laddering, unless in very high level play or small player pools (like GM or high masters) since you in most cases will have absolutely no prior experience with the player you're facing off against. The hidden build orders is why most people won't feel at ease with facing off against a Random player. This is not bad counter-play, it's the complete opposite. While its true that it makes it so that you as a race picking player can't go with your cookie-cutter end all win all opening play against a known opponent it also poses you with a new problem that can be solved, as with any other race. Restrictions in BO's is not the same as bad counter-play since the same is true against all races. If most players would view R as a 4th race not only in theory but also in practice they would find that it has it's own gameplay and as such should be treated as a different race from the other three. Edit: I suppose I'm slightly contradicting myself regarding the meta game. Of course you have to rely on the basics of the actualy race (not random) meta game for mid-late game. The meta game for the actual race should be disregarded for the opening where the hidden build order is in effect, until you know (or have a guess on) your opponents build order (and race). The point I'm trying to make is that in a ladder situation the defining variables for any opening in any match up are imo (1) map size, (2) spawn location, (3) opponent's opener and (4) race (z/t/p/r). | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 06 2013 14:09 AirbladeOrange wrote: Maybe the advantage one gets from playing random is greatly diminished the more skilled player someone is. And that skill level asymptotes at high masters-GM where random drops off entirely. In the context of high level play, theres still a huge capacity to outplay your opponent. Yet, despite random's advantage, it is virtually extinct at the top of the ladder in an environment it supposedly thrives in. On January 06 2013 17:47 kill619 wrote: + Show Spoiler + Then why is it designed to give players the most evenly skilled opponents it possibly can? Why does it rank players according to their skill? I think our definitions of a "competitive environment" are very different, but either way i don't think it relates to the problem I'm having understanding HR's existence. So you seem to think that random HR is no different than any other advantage than that of picking a race, and that questioning why HR exist is no different than questioning why any of the other race specific advantages exist. I think I found a video that explains the concept that I haven't been able to put into words that's very relevant to HR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g A mechanic or ability in a multiplayer game should increase the number of meaningful choices available to the player using it and the player it's being used on. In the context of our argument, HR is bad counter-play. While its fun and gives more options for the player picking random , in the form of the ability to abuse their opponents lack of information, it also limits what the non-random player can and can't, at least not safely, do in the beginning of the game. So if you could agree that HR is bad counter-play, then why is it still in the game? It's been in Starcraft since the beginning, made into to WOL and so far seems like it's going to be in HOTS. It's hard to believe that through 14+ years of developing and tweaking such a well designed game in so many other regards that no one at blizzard ever stopped to see that this was not a good idea and fix it. It only leaves that there's some underlying reason, that isn't simply incompetence, that it's still there, but what is that reason? I just. Don't. Get it. Video doesn't prove anything, lol. The basic concept of expanding choices is situational to a strategy game like SC2. For like the tenth time you tunnel vision on random when SC2 is a game which strategy revolves around limited choices. Dealing with problems that have FEW meaningful solutions. This applies to every fucking aspect of SC2. You have TONS of options; correct choices and subpar choices. You have a huge array of strategies you can play vs random; chances are most of them will suck. There are TONS of cool ways to open in mirror match-ups; majority of them will get you killed. Like, everything you advocate for random applies almost equally to SC2; the only way to satisfy such ridiculous constraints would be to make a single grey blob race that removes all diversity and imbalance. It's not counter-play, it's (ironically) another choice. In your OPINION, it's not a good idea, and in your OPINION, it should be fixed. You don't get it, but many others do. Have you ever considered that you have a bias you're unwilling to give up? For every reason you take issue with random you take issue with starcraft itself in ways, but you're only willing to blame random itself. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:18 Latringuden wrote: I'll but in and say while I agree on all the points in the video I don't think that HR is the main concern for how you play against the Random race in SC2, it always comes down to hidden build orders and the meta game. These two factors are what should be defining your play, not HR. The only reason not to scout in any MO is the meta game - the assumptions that player A makes on how player B will play and vice versa. These assumptions shouldn't be applied to laddering, unless in very high level play or small player pools (like GM or high masters) since you in most cases will have absolutely no prior experience with the player you're facing off against. The hidden build orders is why most people won't feel at ease with facing off against a Random player. This is not bad counter-play, it's the complete opposite. While its true that it makes it so that you as a race picking player can't go with your cookie-cutter end all win all opening play against a known opponent it also poses you with a new problem that can be solved, as with any other race. Restrictions in BO's is not the same as bad counter-play since the same is true against all races. If most players would view R as a 4th race not only in theory but also in practice they would find that it has it's own gameplay and as such should be treated as a different race from the other three. Edit: I suppose I'm slightly contradicting myself regarding the meta game. Of course you have to rely on the basics of the actualy race (not random) meta game for mid-late game. The meta game for the actual race should be disregarded for the opening where the hidden build order is in effect, until you know (or have a guess on) your opponents build order (and race). The point I'm trying to make is that in a ladder situation the defining variables for any opening in any match up are imo (1) map size, (2) spawn location, (3) opponent's opener and (4) race (z/t/p/r). also limits what the non-random player can and can't, at least not safely, do in the beginning of the game. When I was saying that, I was referring to what a player can firmly, even mathematically, prove that their opponent can and can not do at any given point in a game. Metagaming something is completely different, although related to actually knowing it, and that's what determines viable opener when HR is not present; Knowing exactly what a given race can and can not do. ex. Fe builds aren't viable because you can metagame that they won't attack you early in the game, but because, when properly executed, the Fe'ing player has adequate defense for any attack that could threaten him/her. Restrictions in BO's is not the same as bad counter-play since the same is true against all races. So if I'm reading this correctly your saying that the number of viable build orders isn't limited any more by HR than it already is by knowing an opponents race. If so, iirc, there are examples that contradict that statement. ZvR for example. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong , optimal builds for zerg match ups are Hatch first for ZvT, and pool first for the other two. Introducing HR means there is no such thing as a viable optimal opening, and is replaced with either gambling on picking the correct opener for the right match up or knowing that certain map features can compensate for any disadvantages of your build, the latter limiting map viable features which is bad for a number of reasons. If HR expands one players number of viable openers at the expense of another player's, how is that not bad counter-play? If most players would view R as a 4th race not only in theory but also in practice they would find that it has it's own gameplay and as such should be treated as a different race from the other three. The only difference between picking your race and selecting random, is HR. The only thing that a random player could do that a non-random player can't is attempt to take advantage of his opponents lack of information of an opponents race in the beginning of a game. It all seems to fall back to the counter-play idea, that this mechanic gives more options to one player at the expense of another players experience of the game. | ||
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TSORG
293 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:18 Latringuden wrote: I'll but in and say while I agree on all the points in the video I don't think that HR is the main concern for how you play against the Random race in SC2, it always comes down to hidden build orders and the meta game. These two factors are what should be defining your play, not HR. The only reason not to scout in any MO is the meta game - the assumptions that player A makes on how player B will play and vice versa. These assumptions shouldn't be applied to laddering, unless in very high level play or small player pools (like GM or high masters) since you in most cases will have absolutely no prior experience with the player you're facing off against. The hidden build orders is why most people won't feel at ease with facing off against a Random player. This is not bad counter-play, it's the complete opposite. While its true that it makes it so that you as a race picking player can't go with your cookie-cutter end all win all opening play against a known opponent it also poses you with a new problem that can be solved, as with any other race. Restrictions in BO's is not the same as bad counter-play since the same is true against all races. If most players would view R as a 4th race not only in theory but also in practice they would find that it has it's own gameplay and as such should be treated as a different race from the other three. Edit: I suppose I'm slightly contradicting myself regarding the meta game. Of course you have to rely on the basics of the actualy race (not random) meta game for mid-late game. The meta game for the actual race should be disregarded for the opening where the hidden build order is in effect, until you know (or have a guess on) your opponents build order (and race). The point I'm trying to make is that in a ladder situation the defining variables for any opening in any match up are imo (1) map size, (2) spawn location, (3) opponent's opener and (4) race (z/t/p/r). but many maps are very big, even if you scout from the 1st depot/pylon whatever or from the start, and your opponent is on the 4th expansion that you will check, then there is a big chance that if you are not "good enough" that you will be inevatbly behind and it greatly limits what you can do, in fact you can do only 1 thing as many people have stated before, you can only do the one build that works vs all races. not only is this very boring, but it is also unfair that you are forced to do this because the other opponent wants to play more races. | ||
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Latringuden
Sweden79 Posts
When I was saying that, I was referring to what a player can firmly, even mathematically, prove that their opponent can and can not do at any given point in a game. Metagaming something is completely different, although related to actually knowing it, and that's what determines viable opener when HR is not present; Knowing exactly what a given race can and can not do. ex. Fe builds aren't viable because you can metagame that they won't attack you early in the game, but because, when properly executed, the Fe'ing player has adequate defense for any attack that could threaten him/her. And the same is true for Random. You seem to forget that the Random player won't know what the race picking player is doing until he scouts him. As I argued this is the defining moment of the early game, not the races by themselves.This since most cheese has similar timings and counters disregarding race. Early pushes would be scouted anyways so as long as you scout your own BO can still be close to optimal, at least viable, against any early game BO that the Random opponent throws at you. So if I'm reading this correctly your saying that the number of viable build orders isn't limited any more by HR than it already is by knowing an opponents race. If so, iirc, there are examples that contradict that statement. ZvR for example. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong , optimal builds for zerg match ups are Hatch first for ZvT, and pool first for the other two. Introducing HR means there is no such thing as a viable optimal opening, and is replaced with either gambling on picking the correct opener for the right match up or knowing that certain map features can compensate for any disadvantages of your build, the latter limiting map viable features which is bad for a number of reasons. If HR expands one players number of viable openers at the expense of another player's, how is that not bad counter-play? Because the defining factor still isn't HR but hidden build order (HBO), map and spawning point before it's race. The map will always dictate the possibility to FE, rush or early push more then the race you are up against (except special cases in PvR where you have to account for PvP on maps like Tal'darim). As for ZvR hatch first is viable on all 4 player maps asfaik (and larger 2 player maps as well, ex Daybreak). This since the Random player will not know where you are fast enough, or the map will be big enough, for rushes to really be the end all win all games BO for a Random player. So lets bring it down to this: in all cases but PvP on Taldarim it's viable to expand early (or reasonably fast) against a Random opponent. These expands might not be the optimal way to FE but it will not put you behind enough to lose against an early or midgame push. And after that you should be outplaying your opponent mechanicaly. The only difference between picking your race and selecting random, is HR. The only thing that a random player could do that a non-random player can't is attempt to take advantage of his opponents lack of information of an opponents race in the beginning of a game. It all seems to fall back to the counter-play idea, that this mechanic gives more options to one player at the expense of another players experience of the game This is just you beeing biased. Not all Random players will cheese/greed so then the HR will be of no effect. You're overthinking what a Random player can do with this. It's not like he's going to be able to have 50 reapers by the 2 minute mark. It doesn't give more options! The cheese and greed will be the same! This is also arguing that all Random players who doesn't cheese or greed are not playing their race optimally. But that's because cheesing/greeding in every game is (a) not very fun for anyone, (b) not actually a good way to play since it also involves high risk for the cheeser/greeder. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 06 2013 20:35 rd wrote: And that skill level asymptotes at high masters-GM where random drops off entirely. In the context of high level play, theres still a huge capacity to outplay your opponent. Yet, despite random's advantage, it is virtually extinct at the top of the ladder in an environment it supposedly thrives in. Video doesn't prove anything, lol. The basic concept of expanding choices is situational to a strategy game like SC2. For like the tenth time you tunnel vision on random when SC2 is a game which strategy revolves around limited choices. Dealing with problems that have FEW meaningful solutions. This applies to every fucking aspect of SC2. You have TONS of options; correct choices and subpar choices. You have a huge array of strategies you can play vs random; chances are most of them will suck. There are TONS of cool ways to open in mirror match-ups; majority of them will get you killed. Like, everything you advocate for random applies almost equally to SC2; the only way to satisfy such ridiculous constraints would be to make a single grey blob race that removes all diversity and imbalance. It's not counter-play, it's (ironically) another choice. In your OPINION, it's not a good idea, and in your OPINION, it should be fixed. You don't get it, but many others do. Have you ever considered that you have a bias you're unwilling to give up? For every reason you take issue with random you take issue with starcraft itself in ways, but you're only willing to blame random itself. Hmm. So if we ignore aaaaall the points I've tried to make and my motive for being on this thread, that I've already mentioned at the end of every post that you seem to miss anyway, and just peg me as some guy who wants random removed because I'm simply projecting problems with sc2 onto random or more specifically HR, which, again I feel made pretty clear isn't the case, then why not remove HR? If the problems exist with or without HR, then why does it matter whether it's in the game or not, why are you auguring in favor of it so much if it really doesn't matter? | ||
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CRDJGE
17 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 06 2013 22:20 kill619 wrote: Hmm. So if we ignore aaaaall the points I've tried to make and my motive for being on this thread, that I've already mentioned at the end of every post that you seem to miss anyway, and just peg me as some guy who wants random removed because I'm simply projecting problems with sc2 onto random or more specifically HR, which, again I feel made pretty clear isn't the case, then why not remove HR? If the problems exist with or without HR, then why does it matter whether it's in the game or not, why are you auguring in favor of it so much if it really doesn't matter? I've addressed -every- single point, the majority of which cherry pick problems of random and conveniently ignore the "problem" that extends across the entire game. All of these aren't problems at all; they're entirely normal to the game. It all revolves back around to the underlying issue that players with an invested bias against random shouldn't be given credence in an argument to remove it simply because they don't think it's fun to play against. You keep bringing up "problems" with random which simply aren't "problems." HR is already in the game, people enjoy HR, and there has yet to be an argument convincing enough to remove it for the sake of pleasing disgruntled non-random players. It adds a little more depth to the game without taking anything away from it. | ||
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Latringuden
Sweden79 Posts
On January 06 2013 22:11 TSORG wrote: but many maps are very big, even if you scout from the 1st depot/pylon whatever or from the start, and your opponent is on the 4th expansion that you will check, then there is a big chance that if you are not "good enough" that you will be inevatbly behind and it greatly limits what you can do, in fact you can do only 1 thing as many people have stated before, you can only do the one build that works vs all races. not only is this very boring, but it is also unfair that you are forced to do this because the other opponent wants to play more races. Yes, but the same is true for all matchups. Your FE isn't ever safe. That's not because of Random but because it's a calculated risk. And your opponent will need to scout you too so you should know his race faster then you reach his base in a "4-player map wrong scoutpath scenario". If you're a Protoss player I will give you that you probably will have to gate expand on larger 4 player maps, which might not be ideal but still gives you all the possibilities there is for the race in the mid game. | ||
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CRDJGE
17 Posts
Edit: hell, if there are players who dont want to see what race their opponent randommed, there could even be an option to disable the feature. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 06 2013 22:17 Latringuden wrote: And the same is true for Random. You seem to forget that the Random player won't know what the race picking player is doing until he scouts him. As I argued this is the defining moment of the early game, not the races by themselves.This since most cheese has similar timings and counters disregarding race. Early pushes would be scouted anyways so as long as you scout your own BO can still be close to optimal, at least viable, against any early game BO that the Random opponent throws at you. Because the defining factor still isn't HR but hidden build order (HBO), map and spawning point before it's race. The map will always dictate the possibility to FE, rush or early push more then the race you are up against (except special cases in PvR where you have to account for PvP on maps like Tal'darim). As for ZvR hatch first is viable on all 4 player maps asfaik (and larger 2 player maps as well, ex Daybreak). This since the Random player will not know where you are fast enough, or the map will be big enough, for rushes to really be the end all win all games BO for a Random player. So lets bring it down to this: in all cases but PvP on Taldarim it's viable to expand early (or reasonably fast) against a Random opponent. These expands might not be the optimal way to FE but it will not put you behind enough to lose against an early or midgame push. And after that you should be outplaying your opponent mechanicaly. This is just you beeing biased. Not all Random players will cheese/greed so then the HR will be of no effect. You're overthinking what a Random player can do with this. It's not like he's going to be able to have 50 reapers by the 2 minute mark. It doesn't give more options! The cheese and greed will be the same! This is also arguing that all Random players who doesn't cheese or greed are not playing their race optimally. But that's because cheesing/greeding in every game is (a) not very fun for anyone, (b) not actually a good way to play since it also involves high risk for the cheeser/greeder. And the same is true for Random. You seem to forget that the Random player won't know what the race picking player is doing until he scouts him. Both players are without the information of knowing exactly what the other is doing until they scout, true. The difference is that one player can limit the opponents possibilities to the race they're playing at the beginning of the game and the other player can't. It's an un-even level of preparation granted to only one player, and I don't understand why it's there. The map will always dictate the possibility to FE, rush or early push more then the race you are up against Doesn't the ability to proxy and for Terran to fe and plant the cc any where they want make this not valid? This is just you beeing biased. Not all Random players will cheese/greed so then the HR will be of no effect. You can't balance an ability, mechanic, feature, etc. in your game with this logic. It's not bias, it's just that you can't put an option into a game and balance around the idea that a player will decide to stop using it eventually or not use it at use it to begin with. ex. You can't up marine damage to 50 and justify it with "maybe players will grow a conscious or get bored and stop using it" Even if HR, isn't changing games, player experience, match making etc. that still doesn't answer why it's in the game. iirc, the conclusion I've been able to make about it is that it's suppose to act as an incentive to play random, which i don't really get why there needs to be more of them than what would already exist with out it, and the incentive is in the form of an advantage, that may or may not even exist. It's almost like gamification, but less effective. A mechanic introduced into the game to solve a problem, that didn't exist, in a way that's less efficient than other methods available. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 06 2013 22:54 rd wrote: I've addressed -every- single point, the majority of which cherry pick problems of random and conveniently ignore the "problem" that extends across the entire game. All of these aren't problems at all; they're entirely normal to the game. It all revolves back around to the underlying issue that players with an invested bias against random shouldn't be given credence in an argument to remove it simply because they don't think it's fun to play against. You keep bringing up "problems" with random which simply aren't "problems." HR is already in the game, people enjoy HR, and there has yet to be an argument convincing enough to remove it for the sake of pleasing disgruntled non-random players. It adds a little more depth to the game without taking anything away from it. All of these aren't problems at all; they're entirely normal to the game. Of the things we've discussed, problems with the match making, counter-play, player freedom and choice etc., most of them are rooms for improvement more than they are things to just be accepted. If the game can be improved in anyway, I don't see why it would make sense not to. Have you stopped to think why are there so many people that don't like random, or HR specifically, instead of bashing people for incompetence? Because for one,It sort of ties into counter-play if the "depth" of introducing HR is coming at the price of upsetting some of your player base, depending on why exactly they're upset, and for two whining, or lack thereof, doesn't happen for no reason. Any whining that happens with a certain level of consistency is worth examining to find it's source, as to accurately decide whether or not to make a change to quell it and what that change should be. | ||
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Latringuden
Sweden79 Posts
Both players are without the information of knowing exactly what the other is doing until they scout, true. The difference is that one player can limit the opponents possibilities to the race they're playing at the beginning of the game and the other player can't. It's an un-even level of preparation granted to only one player, and I don't understand why it's there. And the other one has the un-even level of skill since he/she will be better at any given matchup (in theory). Doesn't the ability to proxy and for Terran to fe and plant the cc any where they want make this not valid? No, because both players have the same ability to cheese and FE or early push based on the map, not the race. The timing and purpose of all cheese is roughly the same and it is not bound to Random. And again, on 4 player maps without cross spawns a proxy is more likely to fail then win you the game. You can't balance an ability, mechanic, feature, etc. in your game with this logic. It's not bias, it's just that you can't put an option into a game and balance around the idea that a player will decide to stop using it eventually or not use it at use it to begin with. ex. You can't up marine damage to 50 and justify it with "maybe players will grow a conscious or get bored and stop using it" Even if HR, isn't changing games, player experience, match making etc. that still doesn't answer why it's in the game. iirc, the conclusion I've been able to make about it is that it's suppose to act as an incentive to play random, which i don't really get why there needs to be more of them than what would already exist with out it, and the incentive is in the form of an advantage, that may or may not even exist. It's almost like gamification, but less effective. A mechanic introduced into the game to solve a problem, that didn't exist, in a way that's less efficient than other methods available. You can't justify it to be in the game because you don't view it as a different race from p/t/z. It's a forth race with it's own openings, mechanics, challange, incentive and gameplay. View it as such and find what you think is the proper way of dealing with the race, Random. It shouldn't be limiting, it should be a test on how well you know and play that specific match up (as with any other race). | ||
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CRDJGE
17 Posts
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On January 18 2012 18:59 snexwang wrote: First, I swear out loud to myself because random players are skill-less fucking faggots who can die in a fire. Then, once I'm done with my short profanity session, I proceed to play hatch first. If I scout protoss or a zerg running an early pool opening, I'll cancel the hatch and throw down my pool. The game then proceeds as normal. If the random player wins, it was only because he chose random and hit me with an all in. If I win, it was obviously because I'm just the better player and my opponent should never hope to ever beat me because they'll never be on my level (because they chose random). + Show Spoiler + DISCLAIMER: This is a joke post (which should be obvious, but this is the internet). Before you search for my profile on bnet, I am aware of the fact that I am terrible at the game. Put down your pitchfork. User was temp banned for this post. Welcome to the Strategy forum. Please leave your 'skill-less fucking faggots' jokes about Random players outside. This is about discussing strategy. EDIT: I don't agree with that strat either. Let's assume you're on say... a 4 player map, the final base you scout is where your Protoss opponent is, and it's a ZvR. By the time you scouted him, your hatch is already done and he has 3 pylons blocking your ramp ready to cannon the fuck out of it. Basically, you cannot 15 hatch in ZvR on a large 4 player map. There's too much risk involved. Even then if you scout at a time where you can cancel the hatchery, you've just lost 75 Minerals and are technically behind. A forge fast expand isn't the most economical PvZ opening but it already is safe and economic as fuck. The only time he'd be making a significant investment is in cannon rushing you, which would be a guarantee if you're going 15 hatch. The only time cancelling the hatch really feels appropriate is if you scout a 6 pool, 8 pool or 10 pool and it turns out to be a ZvZ. This will let you throw down a Spawning Pool immediately, micro with drones against the lings, drones and spines that are probably incoming, and get lings out on a better economy. Bear in mind that 16 drones can probably take on 6 - 8 lings favourably but you have to do damage immediately else he will just overpower and rape you. He can also kite your drones all day long on creep. It should only be done to save time and when you can put say... 3 - 4 drones on each Spine Crawler that's popping up. | ||
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Ogww
Finland224 Posts
On January 07 2013 02:00 Latringuden wrote: You can't justify it to be in the game because you don't view it as a different race from p/t/z. It's a forth race with it's own openings, mechanics, challange, incentive and gameplay. View it as such and find what you think is the proper way of dealing with the race, Random. It shouldn't be limiting, it should be a test on how well you know and play that specific match up (as with any other race). It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On January 07 2013 02:28 Ogww wrote: It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race. If it has its own metagame surrounding it, I'd consider it a 'fourth race' even if it's a clusterfuck of all three races thrown at you randomly. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 07 2013 02:28 Ogww wrote: It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race. Pretty much what I was gonna say. Also From Latringuden And the other one has the un-even level of skill since he/she will be better at any given matchup (in theory). That theory relies on the being able to predict the consistency of player mmr not being accurate relative to a match up specific mmr. From Clbull If it has its own metagame surrounding it, I'd consider it a 'fourth race' even if it's a clusterfuck of all three races thrown at you randomly. Defining a race as something that has a metagame a surrounding it is an odd way of going about it. By that logic, there's a near infinite number of "races". There are metagames for builds and their follow ups, compositions, maps, players, etc. | ||
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CRDJGE
17 Posts
On January 07 2013 02:40 Clbull wrote: If it has its own metagame surrounding it, I'd consider it a 'fourth race' even if it's a clusterfuck of all three races thrown at you randomly. Whether you call it a fourth race or not, there is no reasonable argument why it shouldnt be removed. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 07 2013 00:20 kill619 wrote: Of the things we've discussed, problems with the match making, counter-play, player freedom and choice etc., most of them are rooms for improvement more than they are things to just be accepted. If the game can be improved in anyway, I don't see why it would make sense not to. Have you stopped to think why are there so many people that don't like random, or HR specifically, instead of bashing people for incompetence? Because for one,It sort of ties into counter-play if the "depth" of introducing HR is coming at the price of upsetting some of your player base, depending on why exactly they're upset, and for two whining, or lack thereof, doesn't happen for no reason. Any whining that happens with a certain level of consistency is worth examining to find it's source, as to accurately decide whether or not to make a change to quell it and what that change should be. You can't fix the match-making. There are three races. Like I said, the only way for ratings to be perfect is if everyone were equally skilled against each race, and played to their full ability with each and every game. The game isn't improved by removing random -- and if you were trying to spin this tangent into a point about improving ladder, removing random won't do anything. If there was a magic ladder rating system that could account for players lack of consistency in all match-ups it'd account for random's lack of consistency too, lol. So many people? The only people who ever give a shit to go out of their way to bitch on a forum are a vocal minority. The people actually able to deal with random who couldn't care less out-number them by magnitudes in the hundreds. Is SC2 now a democracy (of the most vocal players) where everyone votes for their favorite features, or can we acknowledge that players aren't qualified in many respects to have an opinion in an argument they have an invested bias in -- let alone aren't capable of even comprehending completely? On January 07 2013 02:28 Ogww wrote: It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race. It's a fourth race, lol. Everything you're trying to say directly contradicts common knowledge. The only people handicapped by random are the incompetent in lower leagues too stubborn to acknowledge random as a race and actually play properly against it. Why are 5-10% of players entitled to playing a high level metagame when anyone can troll with any race? Turns out ladder's function isn't to cater to players for practice in a tournament level metagame. Get over yourself. 'Another think tank agrees with me.' You tell me that I'm pegging you for whatever and yet you'll agree with the base ignorance I've been trying to dispel for several pages, lol. | ||
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Latringuden
Sweden79 Posts
A bit earlier we were discussing a problem with Random as it would constrict the set of builds thet you could do. I don't agree on this since I think maps, spawningpoints and your opponents build are more important for deciding your build. And by your logic it's not really a problem since you only play your go-to build for all match ups. If the problem you have with Random is that you are outside your comfort zone then go play Random. You'll be outside your comfort zone all the time. You both seem to forget that Random player faces Random as often as non-Random players.. kill619 wrote: Defining a race as something that has a metagame a surrounding it is an odd way of going about it. By that logic, there's a near infinite number of "races". There are metagames for builds and their follow ups, compositions, maps, players, etc. I wouldn't view a build as it's own metagame since all builds are restricted to the race. Hence I don't think that logic is sound. I would however look at Random as its own race with its own metagame, because the viable builds might be altered slightly for both players. | ||
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XaMaXaM
Germany113 Posts
If u are P just make a gate expand or 4-gate, do u know 3-gate sentry expand this is the safest gate expand. As Z just make an early pool maybe a 12 pool hmmmm. Finally T, just play safe build an early bunker and make an CC in your base and dont forget to use your "SCAN". | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
You can't fix the match-making. There are three races. Like I said, the only way for ratings to be perfect is if everyone were equally skilled against each race, and played to their full ability with each and every game. The game isn't improved by removing random -- and if you were trying to spin this tangent into a point about improving ladder, removing random won't do anything. If there was a magic ladder rating system that could account for players lack of consistency in all match-ups it'd account for random's lack of consistency too, lol. I've proposed a way that could fix the problem with ladder multiple times and you've yet to explain why you, apparently, think it wouldn't work. And once again, I never said anything about wanting to remove random, simply to examine HR and all its positive and negative effects on the game. So many people? The only people who ever give a shit to go out of their way to bitch on a forum are a vocal minority. The people actually able to deal with random who couldn't care less out-number them by magnitudes in the hundreds. You have nothing that proves that statement. I said what I did based on the existence of plenty of threads, just like this one, about random, that you can find on plenty of different forums. A lot of those forums start off as or devolve into 1 group of people bashing random as cheesy/gimicky/stupid and another group bashing the first one for not being competent enough to just deal with HR and any other problems people have with random. Is SC2 now a democracy (of the most vocal players) where everyone votes for their favorite features, or can we acknowledge that players aren't qualified in many respects to have an opinion in an argument they have an invested bias in -- let alone aren't capable of even comprehending completely? It's painfully obvious you didn't read all of what you were responding to, or at the very least didn't understand it very well. It's fine if you didn't understand what I was saying, but to ignore it instead of asking me to explain what I was talking about is only gonna make this argument last way longer than it needs to. I'd recommend you re-read it and try again. Why are 5-10% of players entitled to playing a high level metagame when anyone can troll with any race? Turns out ladder's function isn't to cater to players for practice in a tournament level metagame. Get over yourself......'Another think tank agrees with me.' You tell me that I'm pegging you for whatever and yet you'll agree with the base ignorance I've been trying to dispel for several pages, lol. What does this even mean? It's a bit unclear the point your trying to make. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On January 07 2013 02:49 kill619 wrote: Pretty much what I was gonna say. Also From Latringuden That theory relies on the being able to predict the consistency of player mmr not being accurate relative to a match up specific mmr. From Clbull Defining a race as something that has a metagame a surrounding it is an odd way of going about it. By that logic, there's a near infinite number of "races". There are metagames for builds and their follow ups, compositions, maps, players, etc. Here's what I mean. By no means a comprehensive list of openers but here you go. PvT: - Forge Fast Expand (only vs gasless fe openings) - 3 Gate Sentry Expand - Proxy Gateway Core. Done by CombatEX vs KsAlexCMoi in the finals of WCG Canada 2012. If unscouted, allows you to get a Zealot and Stalkers to your opponent's main and deal a fucktonne of damage. - 1 Gate Expand - Nexus First - 3 Gate Pressure into Expand - (Delayed) 4 Gate - Proxy Double Gateway PvP: - 3 Gate Robo - 3 Gate Stargate - 4 Gate all in - Defensive 4 Gate - 3 Gate Blink - 4 Gate DT - Proxy Double Gateway PvZ: - Forge Fast Expand - 1 Gate Expand (only works well against the modern Zerg metagame and if the gate constitutes part of a natural wall-off.) - 3 Gate Sentry Expand - 4 Gate - Nexus First - 7 Gate Blink - 7 Gate Sentry Immortal All-In - FFE into 4 Gate Blink Fast Expand PvR: - Depends on what you scout, but basically 1 Gate Expand, Forge Fast Expand and Nexus first become out of the picture due to their lack of viability in PvP. The absolute easiest way to beat FFE is to either 4-gate into it or go Robo Blink., and Nexus First also suffers from a similar issue whereby you cannot hold mirror matchup aggression. - Yes you do see Nexus First in PvP sometimes but this is in the pro scene where you see pro players try to cut as many corners as humanely possible. - Proxy Double Gateway is also out of the question in PvZ due to how easy it is to scout, how fast lings are and how quickly a Zerg can shut down Zealot aggression with just Lings, Spines and/or Queens anyway. Yes, if any player scouts it and knows what's up, it's usually game ending but for Zerg it's moreso because they can pump out units in danger very quickly. I'm saying it has its own metagame because you cannot simply cut corners because you don't know what the fuck you are up against until you scout. Likewise, it's more difficult for you as a player because you have to practice three races instead of one, although you will be practicing against older-style openings rather than the refined openings of the current metagame. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 07 2013 03:51 Latringuden wrote: A bit earlier we were discussing a problem with Random as it would constrict the set of builds thet you could do. I don't agree on this since I think maps, spawningpoints and your opponents build are more important for deciding your build. And by your logic it's not really a problem since you only play your go-to build for all match ups. If the problem you have with Random is that you are outside your comfort zone then go play Random. You'll be outside your comfort zone all the time. You both seem to forget that Random player faces Random as often as non-Random players.. I wouldn't view a build as it's own metagame since all builds are restricted to the race. Hence I don't think that logic is sound. I would however look at Random as its own race with its own metagame, because the viable builds might be altered slightly for both players. And by your logic it's not really a problem since you only play your go-to build for all match ups. Allow me to reiterate, I was trying to say that I believe that the viability of a build is determined more so by the race of his opponent, literally what 1 race can and can not do in a given period of time, than it is by map design, metagame or anything else. If the problem you have with Random is that you are outside your comfort zone then go play Random. You'll be outside your comfort zone all the time. You both seem to forget that Random player faces Random as often as non-Random players.. The problem with telling a player that is no matter how much you play random to "become more comfortable with it" there's no amount of playing random that compensates for any of the advantages, if any, that come from the race of your opponent being hidden and your's revealed. Regardless, I don't have any personal vendetta against random. Random, HR or not, doesn't personally effect my experience of the game, buts that's not why I'm here. I'd like to figure out, not from the subjective perspective of a player but from the point of view of a game designer, why such a mechanic, as what's essentially the option to hide your race, would be introduced. | ||
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Pucca
Taiwan1280 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 07 2013 04:49 kill619 wrote: I've proposed a way that could fix the problem with ladder multiple times and you've yet to explain why you, apparently, think it wouldn't work. And once again, I never said anything about wanting to remove random, simply to examine HR and all its positive and negative effects on the game. You have nothing that proves that statement. I said what I did based on the existence of plenty of threads, just like this one, about random, that you can find on plenty of different forums. A lot of those forums start off as or devolve into 1 group of people bashing random as cheesy/gimicky/stupid and another group bashing the first one for not being competent enough to just deal with HR and any other problems people have with random. It's painfully obvious you didn't read all of what you were responding to, or at the very least didn't understand it very well. It's fine if you didn't understand what I was saying, but to ignore it instead of asking me to explain what I was talking about is only gonna make this argument last way longer than it needs to. I'd recommend you re-read it and try again. What does this even mean? It's a bit unclear the point your trying to make. It doesn't really matter what your proposed solution is, it's fairly irrelevant in that random has virtually no impact on ladder inflation; like, it cant be willingly abused moreso than any other race can be. You don't specifically say remove random, but you ask all these rhetorical questions like "why does random need HR" which pretty much spells your intention to lobby for HR's removal. Statistics are well on my side, especially given that you base yours on what probably amounts to a hundred or two extremely vocal posters. Yet you gladly exaggerate the number with 'many' as opposed to 'some.' If we're going to be liberal on statistics as to who is more likely post their opinion on random, chances are if someone doesn't care or are fine with they won't post; there are hundreds of thousands of players not passionate enough to post about it. Even then, it's all irrelevant. In ALL issues regarding SC2, the amount of complaints simply isn't enough. Like I said, many posters aren't competent enough to understand the full ramifications on what amounts to an actual issue in SC2. Random especially, they have an emotionally invested bias as they themselves don't play random and don't enjoy losing to it. Theres a ton of shit people don't like to lose to, and even go so far to complain about. | ||
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Nickemwit
United States253 Posts
(I <3 Gretorp btw) | ||
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Rasper
United Kingdom25 Posts
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Maggost
Venezuela296 Posts
I encouter many cheeser players or doing metagame builds. | ||
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Soicx
United Kingdom49 Posts
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StraTkSloth
United States181 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
Next, as has been proposed months ago, find a reason why the randomed race shouldn't show up in the top right corner in the allies menu. Basically, people who complain have a solution, and people who don't care, don't care. That's the solution. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On January 07 2013 08:27 rd wrote: It doesn't really matter what your proposed solution is, it's fairly irrelevant in that random has virtually no impact on ladder inflation; like, it cant be willingly abused moreso than any other race can be. You don't specifically say remove random, but you ask all these rhetorical questions like "why does random need HR" which pretty much spells your intention to lobby for HR's removal. Statistics are well on my side, especially given that you base yours on what probably amounts to a hundred or two extremely vocal posters. Yet you gladly exaggerate the number with 'many' as opposed to 'some.' If we're going to be liberal on statistics as to who is more likely post their opinion on random, chances are if someone doesn't care or are fine with they won't post; there are hundreds of thousands of players not passionate enough to post about it. Even then, it's all irrelevant. In ALL issues regarding SC2, the amount of complaints simply isn't enough. Like I said, many posters aren't competent enough to understand the full ramifications on what amounts to an actual issue in SC2. Random especially, they have an emotionally invested bias as they themselves don't play random and don't enjoy losing to it. Theres a ton of shit people don't like to lose to, and even go so far to complain about. I've stated my intentions multiple times, so there's no need to keep trying to assume that I simply want to remove random out of some personal grudge bred of ignorance. I never made an intentional attempt to exaggerate the number of people who complain about random, I just said that there's been enough whining and enough of a stigma towards random and HR that it's worth examining why people whine about it. If anything, your the one who keeps trying to exaggerate how few people don't like HR when the fact that there is X number of people that don't like it is was the only point I was making in the first place and that X number of people, even if its a small percentage of the sc population/community, seems like enough to wonder why those people are so disgruntled. My original quote was... Have you stopped to think why are there so many people that don't like random, or HR specifically, instead of bashing people for incompetence? At this point it wouldn't surprise me if you had chose to read it as,"EVERYBODY hates random, it has to be removed." Honestly, could you try any harder to nit pick and misinterpret questions instead of answering them? I also never said "If anyone complains about something, we should listen to them and make what ever change they want", which apparently is what you thought I was saying. Mabey an example would help you understand what I'm trying to explain. Let's say that sc2 is released today and with in a week forums everywhere are full of people complaining that mutalisk are too powerful vs all races in the game. As a game designer, It's not smart to ignore the complaints or blame players for their incompetence, or to make a knee jerk patch to the game. Instead, good game developers figure out the root of the complaints before reacting to them. Is the intended counter for mutalisk not filling that role effectively, or requires so much skill to be used effectively that most players can't use it? Are the counter for mutalisk present and effective, but players simply haven't figured out what or how to use those counters yet? Does your game not make it clear enough to the player what the counters to mutalisk are and could be made more apparent to the player in the form of better help menu's or tutorials, or was it indented that players wouldn't know the answer to their problem and for it to be figured out over time? Even if it's player's incompetence of dealing with something in the game, all whining that happens about a game or its features that happens with some amount of consistency is a sign of some problem, perceived or real from the players' perspective and requiring action or not from the developers, with the game. So I ask you again, why do you think people complain about random(HR)? (I even left out the word "many" this time, as to not encourage you to go off on a tangent again. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
I have read the majority of this thread and have yet to find a single good reason being said for HR to be kept, and some small but true ones for it to be taken away. Can someone please tell me a single good reason for it to be kept? I would honestly like to know. (Also, it seems from the posts here i kinda need to ask, but please dont reply with some HR-bashing or generic flame) Cheers | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 07 2013 18:01 Rasper wrote: I see Random mentioned as its own race many times in this thread, can I ask how? Surely its just the game throwing a dice for you at the start, nothing more. It is acknowledged in the game as a fourth race. It's dealt with strategically as a fourth race. Even when compared to traditional races whom have their own unique units, it can be considered a race in that any other set of features which might be misconstrued as a race along the same parameters ultimately aren't displayed in the UI as a fourth race. On January 08 2013 02:54 kill619 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On January 07 2013 08:27 rd wrote: It doesn't really matter what your proposed solution is, it's fairly irrelevant in that random has virtually no impact on ladder inflation; like, it cant be willingly abused moreso than any other race can be. You don't specifically say remove random, but you ask all these rhetorical questions like "why does random need HR" which pretty much spells your intention to lobby for HR's removal. Statistics are well on my side, especially given that you base yours on what probably amounts to a hundred or two extremely vocal posters. Yet you gladly exaggerate the number with 'many' as opposed to 'some.' If we're going to be liberal on statistics as to who is more likely post their opinion on random, chances are if someone doesn't care or are fine with they won't post; there are hundreds of thousands of players not passionate enough to post about it. Even then, it's all irrelevant. In ALL issues regarding SC2, the amount of complaints simply isn't enough. Like I said, many posters aren't competent enough to understand the full ramifications on what amounts to an actual issue in SC2. Random especially, they have an emotionally invested bias as they themselves don't play random and don't enjoy losing to it. Theres a ton of shit people don't like to lose to, and even go so far to complain about. I've stated my intentions multiple times, so there's no need to keep trying to assume that I simply want to remove random out of some personal grudge bred of ignorance. I never made an intentional attempt to exaggerate the number of people who complain about random, I just said that there's been enough whining and enough of a stigma towards random and HR that it's worth examining why people whine about it. If anything, your the one who keeps trying to exaggerate how few people don't like HR when the fact that there is X number of people that don't like it is was the only point I was making in the first place and that X number of people, even if its a small percentage of the sc population/community, seems like enough to wonder why those people are so disgruntled. My original quote was... Have you stopped to think why are there so many people that don't like random, or HR specifically, instead of bashing people for incompetence? At this point it wouldn't surprise me if you had chose to read it as,"EVERYBODY hates random, it has to be removed." Honestly, could you try any harder to nit pick and misinterpret questions instead of answering them? I also never said "If anyone complains about something, we should listen to them and make what ever change they want", which apparently is what you thought I was saying. Mabey an example would help you understand what I'm trying to explain. Let's say that sc2 is released today and with in a week forums everywhere are full of people complaining that mutalisk are too powerful vs all races in the game. As a game designer, It's not smart to ignore the complaints or blame players for their incompetence, or to make a knee jerk patch to the game. Instead, good game developers figure out the root of the complaints before reacting to them. Is the intended counter for mutalisk not filling that role effectively, or requires so much skill to be used effectively that most players can't use it? Are the counter for mutalisk present and effective, but players simply haven't figured out what or how to use those counters yet? Does your game not make it clear enough to the player what the counters to mutalisk are and could be made more apparent to the player in the form of better help menu's or tutorials, or was it indented that players wouldn't know the answer to their problem and for it to be figured out over time? Even if it's player's incompetence of dealing with something in the game, all whining that happens about a game or its features that happens with some amount of consistency is a sign of some problem, perceived or real from the players' perspective and requiring action or not from the developers, with the game. So I ask you again, why do you think people complain about random(HR)? (I even left out the word "many" this time, as to not encourage you to go off on a tangent again. You make the inherent assumption Blizzard hasn't already quietly investigated and dismissed the complaints. Considering random has been complained about since beta, it is very likely the case. Regardless, many of the arguments in those complaints are, again, irrational, emotionally-invested bias spawned from incompetence or an inability to comprehend the actual problem when they lose to a random player. Others who bitch about practice misinterpret the ladder's function, and additionally misinterpret random's role in impeding that function. As for helping players who don't understand the problem, Blizzard doesn't really offer anything beyond fundamental basics. Communities like TL offer help, and just as players get advice about dealing with mutalisks do they get advice about dealing with random. In both cases, advice exists, players have successfully dealt with both and moved on to higher leagues. They can't be helped if they're too stubborn to acknowledge the problem. On January 08 2013 08:05 Squigly wrote: What ive never understoof is, that if there was no HR, I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be added in a patch. If there is no need to add it, and there is even the smallest need to take it away, it should be removed. I have read the majority of this thread and have yet to find a single good reason being said for HR to be kept, and some small but true ones for it to be taken away. Can someone please tell me a single good reason for it to be kept? I would honestly like to know. (Also, it seems from the posts here i kinda need to ask, but please dont reply with some HR-bashing or generic flame) Cheers How convenient: in your opinion there is no reason for HR to remain, and you don't even provide a reason for it to be removed. You have the process mixed up: HR is currently in the game and will not be removed. You don't demand an argument that ASSUMES HR is flawed and will be removed. You bear the burden of offfering a convincing argument as to why years of precedence should be flipped on it's head to accommodate YOUR demand. There are like 500 features that may have never have been implemented in a patch. You're literally claiming omniscience of Blizzard's intentions by suggesting HR was a mistake. Should I just run down the list of BW ported features where we pose the hypothetical of any random idea not being in the game from the beginning and how it'd be added retroactively, or can you come up with a less vague argument that actually refutes HR? It's kinda funny because they had the option of removing HR in SC2 ontop of all of the other BW features they cut and they didn't. They could still do it in HotS or LotV too. Convenient that you're making it up as you go. | ||
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Raven_zero300
United States33 Posts
I have played every ladder game, since release day, as random. Never have I chosen a race. Why? Initialy because I couldn't decide on which race I wanted to play, and then later because I learned that b.net is full of window licking retards who copy their strats from teamliquid.net or some other forum and then immediately jump on those forums crying when they lose. Granted, that isn't all of the players on b.net, but from play experince, alot of players copy their strats from popular and well known meta-game strats. This cookie cutting mindset is the downfall of those players, and even the pro players. Is it any wonder that pro's who innovate dominate everyone else? Then that innovation becomes standard, and then someone else innovates and then dominates the scene until all the cookie cutting retards copy them. Rinse, repeat. What this thread is, at it's heart, is a vocal minority who are crying to their mommy forums that their perfect unbeatable strat they copied from this very forum isn't as effective against random because they could be any race. Thus, their solution to their inability to not be a cookie cutting retard is to cry for blizzard to change a 18 year old feature so that the game will show what the random player's race is. I'll give these posters a hint: You lack any legitimacy, as none of you can cite a single arguement other than it hurts your pre-planned vsX race strat. My solution to you posters is to stop licking your monitor, close teamliquid, and figure out your own strategy that depends on your skill rather than you getting that 15th drone 2 seconds faster than your opponent. Of course, to do that requires those players to stop crying. Winners don't cry. Only whiners cry. Choose which you would rather be, a winner or a whiner. | ||
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SixtusTheFifth
New Zealand170 Posts
On January 08 2013 08:10 dAPhREAk wrote: i have yet to see a single good reason for it to be removed? are we reading the same thread? You know what, I'm starting to wonder the same thing. Maybe we should talk amongst ourselves for a bit to make sure we are processing all of this the same way. Then, once we are sure, have another stab at getting our points across to what I will very loosely describe as 'our learned opponents'. I know you to be a man of not inconsiderable intellect dAPhREAk so I will use you as a baseline. On January 08 2013 02:54 kill619 wrote: My original quote was... Have you stopped to think why are there so many people that don't like random, or HR specifically, instead of bashing people for incompetence? So straight off I see argumentum ad populum. Since I don't trust anything this guy says anymore I'm not going to trust the assertion that there are so many people. Basically, I see one 'fact' that he made up. I was surprised enough that he was ballsy enough to quote himself saying this, but to follow up with this outrage about being misunderstood... On January 08 2013 02:54 kill619 wrote: At this point it wouldn't surprise me if you had chose to read it as,"EVERYBODY hates random, it has to be removed." Honestly, could you try any harder to nit pick and misinterpret questions instead of answering them? So if he is justifiably outraged, then "EVERYBODY hates random" and "so many people that don't like random" are light years apart, polar opposites, mutally exclusive even. As you read this dAPhREAk, do you consider his outrage justified? Regarding reasons for hidden random to be removed, and I haven't seen any either, what would such reasons look like?
Anyway, I'm seriously questioning reality right now dAPhREAk, so I would be delighted to read your opinions on the matter. For our learned opponents, the adults need to talk for a while, we'll be back with you shortly. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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lazyitachi
1043 Posts
They only win cause they are cheeser and can't play macro gamez. They only care for winz and unlike me, I want to improve and get out my Bronze/ Silver/ Gold/ Plat league. So I will cheese them with my 10 pool/ 4 gate/ 2 rax because these gamez are a waste of time and not skillz. They got what they deserved those cheesing randoms! Easy win for me cos I have skill! | ||
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SixtusTheFifth
New Zealand170 Posts
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zelevin
United States259 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
Basically, nobody places in the money at tournaments, with random. It's insanely hard to have the mechanics of 3 races while simultaneously having the knowledge of how to play 9 different match-ups. Match-up knowledge is further compounded by specific tactics and building placements for each different map, even with significant overlap for the tactics. So when they play games in tournaments and games go long against good opponents, that mechanical failure really takes its toll. So for those of us who play ladder games in preparation for tournaments, what good are random opponents? Why would I learn a 4th match-up, when I could just hit F10 and End Game and then search another game instead? Until random players start placing well at tournaments, playing random isn't a strategy anyone needs to prepare against. When it comes to mechanics, usually, random players are really good at one race, decent at another race, and mediocre to bad at the third race. So they make terrible practice partners. In theory, it seems great, since they know enough about all 3 races to play any match-up I want! But, in reality, they generally can only help with one match-up--and never as well as someone who decided to stick to one race for the sake of fundamentals and deeper match-up understanding. Needless to say, this leads me to dealing with random players on the ladder, in 3 simple ways, depending on how bad the map is for scouting cheese, and how much I feel like actually playing the game out: 1. I leave the game immediately and don't waste any more of my time. 2. I stay in the game, but go AFK and make myself a sandwich. Playing against random players is such a waste of time, from a practice standpoint, that sometimes I like to return the favor and waste some of their time. I won't sit there and hide farms or anything, but if I have something to do away from the computer, this is usually an opportunity to do so. 3. If I really feel like playing, and the map is good for the sake of scouting cheese/defending it, I'll 13 gate-->scout, 15 gas, 16 pylon, 18 core+zealot, and if I see cheese I build a second gate and boost units. Most cheeses lose to good scouting and 2 gateways pumping units. Most econ cheeses can be handled by pressure and a WG timing follow-up. And if they play a standard game, I either go for drops or for Phoenixes, and I multitask them as much as possible...because someone who plays 3 different races will inevitably fall apart with his macro when he's under a lot of pressure in multiple locations. Mostly, it's #1, unless I really want to get myself a sandwich.... | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 08 2013 23:10 ineversmile wrote: This is my beef with random players: Basically, nobody places in the money at tournaments, with random. It's insanely hard to have the mechanics of 3 races while simultaneously having the knowledge of how to play 9 different match-ups. Match-up knowledge is further compounded by specific tactics and building placements for each different map, even with significant overlap for the tactics. So when they play games in tournaments and games go long against good opponents, that mechanical failure really takes its toll. So for those of us who play ladder games in preparation for tournaments, what good are random opponents? Why would I learn a 4th match-up, when I could just hit F10 and End Game and then search another game instead? Until random players start placing well at tournaments, playing random isn't a strategy anyone needs to prepare against. When it comes to mechanics, usually, random players are really good at one race, decent at another race, and mediocre to bad at the third race. So they make terrible practice partners. In theory, it seems great, since they know enough about all 3 races to play any match-up I want! But, in reality, they generally can only help with one match-up--and never as well as someone who decided to stick to one race for the sake of fundamentals and deeper match-up understanding. Needless to say, this leads me to dealing with random players on the ladder, in 3 simple ways, depending on how bad the map is for scouting cheese, and how much I feel like actually playing the game out: 1. I leave the game immediately and don't waste any more of my time. 2. I stay in the game, but go AFK and make myself a sandwich. Playing against random players is such a waste of time, from a practice standpoint, that sometimes I like to return the favor and waste some of their time. I won't sit there and hide farms or anything, but if I have something to do away from the computer, this is usually an opportunity to do so. 3. If I really feel like playing, and the map is good for the sake of scouting cheese/defending it, I'll 13 gate-->scout, 15 gas, 16 pylon, 18 core+zealot, and if I see cheese I build a second gate and boost units. Most cheeses lose to good scouting and 2 gateways pumping units. Most econ cheeses can be handled by pressure and a WG timing follow-up. And if they play a standard game, I either go for drops or for Phoenixes, and I multitask them as much as possible...because someone who plays 3 different races will inevitably fall apart with his macro when he's under a lot of pressure in multiple locations. Mostly, it's #1, unless I really want to get myself a sandwich.... I wouldn't have cared to comment until you mention wasting a random player's time as if to assume his intentions are the same as yours; to practice a high level metagame in a ladder not intended for practicing within a tournament level metagame. Yet, a random player is probably either is oblivious to it, is aware of the difficulty playing random and plays for fun, or generally doesn't care either way, but all three share the common goal of ascending ladder exclusively, and you facilitate that by giving them wins. But you're wasting their time don't worry; you got them there. Do you also leave when you see blind pool first, or gas after rax? | ||
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costinii
Portugal59 Posts
On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote: Hi everyone. I personally dislike when i'm against a random player. Because i just can't do an usual opening. In addition, many random players just cheese/all-in (i don't know why). I encounter very few random players on the ladder, but they all all-in. So when i'm facing a random player, i just go 7RR or 6pool. And i feel like "what a useless game ...". Yesterday, i did a 7RR and the random player was 6 pooling. 6 pool VS 7RR, what a game ^^ How do you play against random players on the ladder ? First I would like to state I am a random player and I don't all in, well at least in more than 90% of the times. I don't think you are correct and I think you are just mad because you might have lost some games due to cheese or rush. Secondly, if you feel rush is the answer you are wrong. As a Master you won't succeed if you don't survive or scout a standard cheese. While playing zerg, in long distances you can even go 14 hatch and 14 pool still surviving with no problem. It would be more appropriated if you could correct your original post or at least specify that in your games players did that to you, because your sentence is false. By the way, it is harder to play 3 races than only one. So don't think it's easy to play random! Best of luck in the future and many good games. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On January 08 2013 23:10 ineversmile wrote: This is my beef with random players: Basically, nobody places in the money at tournaments, with random. It's insanely hard to have the mechanics of 3 races while simultaneously having the knowledge of how to play 9 different match-ups. Match-up knowledge is further compounded by specific tactics and building placements for each different map, even with significant overlap for the tactics. So when they play games in tournaments and games go long against good opponents, that mechanical failure really takes its toll. So for those of us who play ladder games in preparation for tournaments, what good are random opponents? Why would I learn a 4th match-up, when I could just hit F10 and End Game and then search another game instead? Until random players start placing well at tournaments, playing random isn't a strategy anyone needs to prepare against. When it comes to mechanics, usually, random players are really good at one race, decent at another race, and mediocre to bad at the third race. So they make terrible practice partners. In theory, it seems great, since they know enough about all 3 races to play any match-up I want! But, in reality, they generally can only help with one match-up--and never as well as someone who decided to stick to one race for the sake of fundamentals and deeper match-up understanding. Needless to say, this leads me to dealing with random players on the ladder, in 3 simple ways, depending on how bad the map is for scouting cheese, and how much I feel like actually playing the game out: 1. I leave the game immediately and don't waste any more of my time. 2. I stay in the game, but go AFK and make myself a sandwich. Playing against random players is such a waste of time, from a practice standpoint, that sometimes I like to return the favor and waste some of their time. I won't sit there and hide farms or anything, but if I have something to do away from the computer, this is usually an opportunity to do so. 3. If I really feel like playing, and the map is good for the sake of scouting cheese/defending it, I'll 13 gate-->scout, 15 gas, 16 pylon, 18 core+zealot, and if I see cheese I build a second gate and boost units. Most cheeses lose to good scouting and 2 gateways pumping units. Most econ cheeses can be handled by pressure and a WG timing follow-up. And if they play a standard game, I either go for drops or for Phoenixes, and I multitask them as much as possible...because someone who plays 3 different races will inevitably fall apart with his macro when he's under a lot of pressure in multiple locations. Mostly, it's #1, unless I really want to get myself a sandwich.... 4. i lose and then whine about it in the forums. it may surprise some people, but other people play the game for fun and not to get better or practice. having the random function is fun for me both from the perspective of using it myself, and having my opponent use it. i know people like to use their cookie-cutter builds and do the same thing over and over like machines, but i like a little variety in my life. | ||
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President Dead
97 Posts
On January 08 2013 23:10 ineversmile wrote: Why would I learn a 4th match-up, when I could just hit F10 and End Game and then search another game instead? 1. I leave the game immediately and don't waste any more of my time. 2. I stay in the game, but go AFK and make myself a sandwich. Playing against random players is such a waste of time, from a practice standpoint, that sometimes I like to return the favor and waste some of their time. I won't sit there and hide farms or anything, but if I have something to do away from the computer, this is usually an opportunity to do so. Mostly, it's #1, unless I really want to get myself a sandwich.... You just admitted you get butt-hurt over playing randoms. So butt-hurt that you feel spiteful enough to go AFK wasting your opponents time. There's is nothing that you can possibly say that can counter the complete cowardice and subsequent five-year-old child tantrum that you throw in your hurt feelings that took something so small as for a Random player to pop up for you to whimper and hide. I hope you seriously work through your internal issues for the sake of your mental health | ||
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Generalul
Romania114 Posts
Now, as i said, i started playing as random because i wanted to learn all the race specific mechanics and matchups, and overall benefit from the SC 2 experience not only partially, like i felt it was when i played only terran. Yes, it's hard to learn it all, master matchups, take into account some map specific strategies etc. But so what? For me is fun, and it's even less harder then playing one race and getting into GM. So i really, but i mean, i REALLY DON'T understand why people whine about this so much... Because of the difficulty in playing a random and adapting your strat? Well, don't you play this game in the first place because you want a challenge? Because you want to go against better and better opponents, you want to progess through the leagues? If you want 100% wins and easy games why don't you stay in bronze? (Oh, some really do that, i forgot) Or if you don't and you just play for fun, well, this is FUN Imagine how rare it is when i play vs another random in masters and the fun and challenge we both have. I remember one game like that turned into a classic TvT, lasting almost one hour (real time).Now, a good player must mix and be proficient at both cheese, macro and allins. Now, the problem is that all expect randoms to cheese or do it themselves out of frustration, so even if i see a cool cheese on the GSL and want to give it a try, i will still need to play standard. Cheesing randoms (not blaming them in any way, is their choice and their style of play, so i respect that and the fun they have) won't probably make it higher than diamond, as the maps we have now are so different that those of season 1, making cheeses and allins much more difficult. But if you are really scared of a 6 pool or whatever, just scout at 9 and you'll be fine, if you are a good solid player, in the long run you should get the advantage on the random player. It's his choice to try and master all the matchups so you can exploit that weakness instead of rage quiting or being afk. I've been faced with those reactions myself on the ladder, from people quiting the second the match started, making worker rushes, silly cheeses or them raging at me from the start or only after losing. Now why would someone do that? I guess is has nothing to do with the random situation in fact, as the same people who cry about this and rage on ladder are the same that do it anyway after they lose to a regular opponent or whine about some race being op and theirs being nerfed all the time... I probably won't get to GM by playing random, but at least i have fun while i play, i even got to ro8 in a tournament once by doing so (even beating 2 gm's in the process) and i got all i expected from this game. Why don't you guys try to do the same? Also, on a side note, i don't see any real professionals complaining about this, so your random-whine posts must look to them what bronzies cry for helps about the invincible 4 gate or 6 pool seem to you. | ||
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Magus.421
France159 Posts
Well ... so, after one year, here my thoughts : There's not many random players on bnet. I'm a master player on europe server, and according to sc2ranks ( http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all ), there's only 5% of random player. So i encounter a random player every 20 games (more or less). I still think games against a random player are "trash". Because of 3 things : * I don't play on the ladder to win. I don't play on the ladder to be high ranked. I don't care of that. I play on the ladder to train. I agree with people when they say "random is just a 4th race". The problem is that i just never encounter a random player when i play a tournament or an online competition. So i just feel that training against a random player is pointless. * Every random player i encounter just cheese / all-in. I KNOW that every single random player on this forum never all-in. You all play macro game and i'm very glad for you. I pray very hard so you can all come in the europe master league so i can play against you. But at the moment, all random player on the europe master league just cheese and i can't do anything against that. The random "race" just make the cheeses overpowered. "It's hard to play 3 races" : I think it's true when you play a macro game. But even me, with a gold level in protoss, i can pylon block + canon rush a master Zerg. So this statement can't be true in the ladder for me. * Ask the race ? Unfortunaly, most of the time, the opponent just lie on his race. So i can't believe the answer. With all of that, i still think that a game against a random player is useless. But there's no big deal, there's only 5% of random player in my league. We can't do anything against that. If in the future we see many more random player in competition, maybe it will become useful to train against random players on the ladder. But, i definitively think the ladder is just the worst place for encountering a random player. If i encounter a random player in a competition in a Bo3, i think it will be more "balanced". But the Bo1 format of the ladder is not a really good thing for the balance. But it's not limited to the random players. | ||
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DKR
United Kingdom622 Posts
Using ladder for tournament practice is inefficient and you're not going to be winning GSL any time soon that way. | ||
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NotoriousBig
Germany301 Posts
On January 12 2013 21:18 Magus.421 wrote: Wow ... i can't believe after an entire year my topic is still here o_O Well ... so, after one year, here my thoughts : There's not many random players on bnet. I'm a master player on europe server, and according to sc2ranks ( http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all ), there's only 5% of random player. So i encounter a random player every 20 games (more or less). I still think games against a random player are "trash". Because of 3 things : * I don't play on the ladder to win. I don't play on the ladder to be high ranked. I don't care of that. I play on the ladder to train. I agree with people when they say "random is just a 4th race". The problem is that i just never encounter a random player when i play a tournament or an online competition. So i just feel that training against a random player is pointless. * Every random player i encounter just cheese / all-in. I KNOW that every single random player on this forum never all-in. You all play macro game and i'm very glad for you. I pray very hard so you can all come in the europe master league so i can't play against you. But at the moment, all random player on the europe master league just cheese and i can't do anything against that. The random "race" just make the cheeses overpowered. "It's hard to play 3 races" : I think it's true when you play a macro game. But even me, with a gold level in protoss, i can pylon block + canon rush a master Zerg. So this statement can't be true in the ladder for me. * Ask the race ? Unfortunaly, most of the time, the opponent just lie on his race. So i can't believe the answer. With all of that, i still think that a game against a random player is useless. But there's no big deal, there's only 5% of random player in my league. We can't do anything against that. If in the future we see many more random player in competition, maybe it will become useful to train against random players on the ladder. But, i definitively think the ladder is just the worst place for encountering a random player. If i encounter a random player in a competition in a Bo3, i think it will be more "balanced". But the Bo1 format of the ladder is not a really good thing for the balance. But it's not limited to the random players. You just put my opinion about random players in the words i was looking for, funnily i play very often against randoms, which sucks, and it doesn´t make sense why blizzard wouldn´t implement that the race the random player has get´s revealed when the game starts. There´s no reason why they don´t have it in the game. | ||
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Magus.421
France159 Posts
On January 12 2013 22:27 DKR wrote: Unfortunately the game isn't solely about the 2% who train for tournaments or the 10% who play 20 games a day hopeing to get to masters it's about everyone and that includes the majority of people who play because they enjoy the game and enjoy the ladder. Using ladder for tournament practice is inefficient and you're not going to be winning GSL any time soon that way. I'm not talking about gsl or anything else like that :D I play "little" online competition. No big cash prize, no big competition, and rarerly "lan" competition. But i really don't "play ladder to just play ladder". | ||
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Sylfyre
Australia222 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
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PowerDes
United States520 Posts
On January 13 2013 14:54 dAPhREAk wrote: stats opened gate first against zerg in PL. guess hes massively behind now | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
Doesn't naniwa regularilly do a gate expand? I play random and laugh when people complain about this, playing random is atleast three times as hard (and asfun!) as playing one race since you have to learn three times the match ups; gaining a slight early advantage from forcing your one race opponent to open with a very flexibly safe build hardly compensates for this. I don't understand why it's so hard for protoss players to open with a pylon/gate near their ramp, zergs to 15/15 pool and terrans to do a standard supply depot/barracks wall off. Scout earlier, identify his build and if he cheeses prepare against it and win. And no, I'm not one of the "cheese every game" random players, I do tend to play excessively greedy though ^^;: | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
he got to the late game; a 20+ minute game. he did lose though so i imagine the people in this thread will try to hold their hat on that point and ignore the rest of the factors of the game. | ||
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President Dead
97 Posts
On January 13 2013 02:52 Sylfyre wrote: Why is it so hard for people to realize that random is like a 4th race at the beginning...you don't use your zvz opening for zvp or vice versa (generally) And the argument that random players are bad, well that must apply to you as well, because they are playing on your level.... It's hard to realize because Random is not a 4th race, It's 1 of 3 races chosen randomly, hence "Random." You're silly. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On January 13 2013 01:48 Magus.421 wrote: I'm not talking about gsl or anything else like that :D I play "little" online competition. No big cash prize, no big competition, and rarerly "lan" competition. But i really don't "play ladder to just play ladder". Bingo. Let's not kid ourselves, here. While there is an AWESOME minority of random players who will play a straight-up game a significant portion of the time, the vast majority of games against random on ladder are simply the random player cheesing. And it's not even that it's cheese that bothers me; it's that the cheese is usually really bad, bumpy cheese. I'm fine with someone 6 pooling me or 14/14ing me or proxy-gating me or 2raxing me or 1-1-1ing me, but at least try when you do it. I hate those 10 minute games against an obvious baneling bust where I'm sitting on 2 bases with a bunch of sentries and a stalker or two behind a full wall, a Void Ray popping out soon, and then the zerg making me waste 5 more minutes walking across the map and killing off all of his buildings. And that's MOST games against random, on ladder. What a waste of time. Sure, a lot of players will do that kind of thing as any race--anyone could be bad mannered, and a random player doesn't necessarily have to be bad mannered...but, most of the time, they are. Not all of the time...just well enough into the 90% range that it just makes playing the PvR match-up a joke on ladder. So I'm sorry to the very small minority of mannered, quality random players out there...but sometimes, I'm just going to go AFK on you and make a sandwich. Collateral damage. | ||
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Shottaz
United Kingdom414 Posts
On January 16 2013 18:22 ineversmile wrote: So I'm sorry to the very small minority of mannered, quality random players out there...but sometimes, I'm just going to go AFK on you and make a sandwich. Collateral damage. So when you have been beaten you just go afk... and you think Random players are BM... | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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A Wild Sosd
Australia421 Posts
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SXGCoil
United States341 Posts
On January 16 2013 20:25 mizU wrote: OMG a random player? That means I actually have to scout and adjust my build to what I see? I can't just autopilot through a fast expand build like all my other ladder games? omgg omg omg Get down off the high horse. In my experience randoms really do cheese/all in every game :/ | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On January 16 2013 22:36 Brawny wrote: Get down off the high horse. In my experience randoms really do cheese/all in every game :/ What high horse? I play random, and never cheese. Sometimes people cheese me because it's "too difficult" to play with a suboptimal opening. Really? 14 pool then hatch is THAT much worse than a 15 hatch? Come on. It's not too difficult to play safely. If you do actually get cheesed and all-ined every game, why aren't you scouting for it if you know it's coming? | ||
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
On January 18 2012 19:05 Angel_ wrote: wait wait wait so you generalize that all random players are just cheesers and all-iners... yes, german are nazis americans are fat jews have big noses and bunker them money blacks have big penises and randoms only allin. thats life dood, deal with it. (plz not more than 3 months) User was banned for this post. | ||
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Rasera
Canada96 Posts
On the flip-side, I don't like it when I play against a random that doesn't declare their race, but I just go 12 forge, 15 gateway at my ramp against any random player as a precaution. | ||
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President Dead
97 Posts
On January 16 2013 22:36 Brawny wrote: Get down off the high horse. In my experience randoms really do cheese/all in every game :/ You just stated every Random player has cheesed you/all-in'ned, which for anything over 50+ Random games played is nearly statistically impossible. You're credibility is now zero. And even though you don't like it when someone doesnt declare their race, even if they do why would you take their word for it? I play Random in Plat and about 5%-10% of people ask, "Race?" which is very impolite and I either lie or tell them "No habla englis ..." You have no right to know anything unless you scout me. Bottom line. I have to learn 9 match-up's, you'll have to learn to live with my 2 minute advantage. As far as the OP' post just do a safe generic opener and react from there. It's really not that different from knowing the race and preparing for anything. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On January 18 2013 02:39 Salient wrote: PvR isn't fun. You have to wall your ramp in case of zerg 6 pool. But that wall is a liability against a Terran 2 Rax or Protoss 3 gate robo all in. It's probably best to just cannon rush or 2 gate proxy against randoms. you really think a cannon rush or 2 gate proxy is a safer build against randoms? that seems incredibly stupid. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On January 18 2013 03:07 dAPhREAk wrote: r you really think a cannon rush or 2 gate proxy is a safer build against randoms? that seems incredibly stupid. Those cheeses can work about 50% of the time, especially vs Randoms because they usually scout late to hide their race as long as possible. It has the benefit of making PvRs quick, whether you win or lose. Also, its fun to beat cheesy Random players with cheese. Poetic Justice. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On January 18 2013 03:59 Salient wrote: Those cheeses can work about 50% of the time, especially vs Randoms because they usually scout late to hide their race as long as possible. It has the benefit of making PvRs quick, whether you win or lose. Also, its fun to beat cheesy Random players with cheese. Poetic Justice. what league are you in? | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
Diamond. But cheese works in Masters too. Maybe not at the pro level. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
The one game, by the way, was a PvR on Tal Darim Altar, in which he was Z and went hatch first, but I 4gated him because I scouted his location last and had to 4gate in case he was Protoss. I think I even sent a second scout probe out, just in case I could see an all-in coming from that direction's watchtower, but I was already locked into a 4gate build because I had to start banking chronoboost and not get a second gas, and therefore shoot my economical production in the foot. So, ironically, since I have been in Master League, the only time I played a Random who was trying to play a straightforward game, I was forced into 4gating due to the idiotic map pool. My point here is this: I've played probably 20-30 games against random out of a few hundred games in...half a year or so? And only once did my opponent try to saturate his natural. So can you blame me for just leaving at the start of games against Random? It's cheese almost every single time, at mid-master level. There's a reason why random players don't get this highly ranked from playing macro games: they don't have good mechanics with 3 races. So the ones that make it higher up on the ladder are generally the ones who just cheese all day every day. And I'm fine with cheese being part of the game, but it shouldn't be almost the entire game...it's boring. It's not fun to win against or to lose against, and it's frankly just not good practice. So I have literally no reason to play against Random players, and they have done this to themselves. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
If they're bad like most, can kill them with the proxy. If not, kill them with a followup 3fac+ravens push | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 18 2013 07:49 ineversmile wrote: You seem to have the randoms figured out, and as you state they don't have as good mechanics as you, so why don't you just play super safe and fetch your free win? | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On January 18 2013 07:55 dAPhREAk wrote: leaving the game doesn't punish randoms. it gives them free wins. so, congratulations on rewarding them for playing random. Well, then maybe I'm not punishing them. But, at least I'm not wasting my time on an irrelevant game. If randoms stop doing stupid shit all the time, games against them would start to matter. But that's never going to change. On January 18 2013 08:40 kyllinghest wrote: You seem to have the randoms figured out, and as you state they don't have as good mechanics as you, so why don't you just play super safe and fetch your free win? It's not free. It's usually 10 minutes of scouting a bunch of different cheeses, then holding it, and then another 5-10 minutes of the random player not leaving the game but not being directly killable yet. Or just outright farmhiding. Ain't nobody got time fo' that. | ||
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