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On January 19 2012 07:42 ThePianoDentist wrote:
i find it amusing the players who think they lost when they played against a random because of the gigantic economic setback of having to make their gateway at their ramp rather than next to nexus :|
if you don't have enough variety in your game to be able to play versus random (e.g. a protoss player who only knows how to play ffe in PvZ) then that is your own fault, not the random players.
Its not a question of being able to only do ffe. if you put your gate at your nexus you have a huge disadvantage against zerg and straight die to a lot of speedling openers. Which forces your to make your initial gateway at your ramp which then puts you at a disadvantage against terran and protoss. Its simply a lose lose situation that you can't get out of.
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On January 19 2012 07:28 eeizbee wrote:Show nested quote +
I've held several 6/7pools with a gateway next to my base. I'm not sure if they played it wrong or whatever though.
Anyway, I random a lot and I never blind cheese. (7pool, proxy gate/rax) The best way to play vs random is to open a standard build that's decent vs all 3 races. Protoss and Terran should open relatively the same and Zerg can 14/14 I guess. 15 hatch would be nice too but I think that autoloses to a lot of stuff.
Anyway, why would you worry about it? Chances are if they random full time, they're 3x less experienced with the matchup than you.
i'm not worried about it i don't really care about ladder. a 6 pool is yes very easily held even with a 1 gate opener, but what do you do when 40 speedling's run in and you opened gate with a pylon beside your base?. the consensus is (i think) that if you don't wall off or do a gap wall off with a zealot block there is no way you are going to hold the zerg's first push, even if they didn't start the match thinking "i'm going to push this guy early" they would be stupid not to when they see they can wander right up your ramp and in your base.
If you 9 scout, which you should since the opponent is random, you'll scout them before you even make your cyber core. You have enough time to wall off your ramp with a pylon and your 2nd and 3rd gateways.
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On January 19 2012 07:42 ThePianoDentist wrote:
i find it amusing the players who think they lost when they played against a random because of the gigantic economic setback of having to make their gateway at their ramp rather than next to nexus :|
if you don't have enough variety in your game to be able to play versus random (e.g. a protoss player who only knows how to play ffe in PvZ) then that is your own fault, not the random players.
Lol, nobody here is talking seriously about the economic damage you take from building your shit at the ramp...
It's mostly that many cheeses and timing attacks are much harder to defend for the following main reasons:
_ Your first vital pylon is far away from your nexus (proxy gates, cannon rushes become much harder to defend)
_ You have less space at the top of your ramp to micro around (lost space for concave, ranged units waste some of their range behind a thick wall of buildings, etc...)
_ If your opponent gets some high ground vision with a one base attack, you WILL lose buildings, which you would not have otherwise.
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Playing versus random doesn't change anything. If anything it forces you to be less greedy and play safer. On large maps they have advantage because scouts come later, but be safe and just 14/14 as zerg (its optimal in 2/3 matchups don't risk the 33.33333% chance). Go 9 pylon 12/13 gate and wall the ramp. Terran has it easysince they tend to 10-12-13 every matchup anyways, where they gonext, well that's why you scout. Playing versus random proves you know your race. If they cheese, what would change if you knew their race beforehand. Random isn't a shroud to hide an all-in, but instead to either unnerve the opponent or an indecisive person as far as race goes. Don't think every random person as an all-in player, just be smart and play defensive/safe. If you lose, watch the replay, and ask yourself "How well did I scout? Would knowing the race prior to building my first worker have changed anything?" If you can't change your build order to react to your opponent, why do you play a RTS? The game is constantly evolving, adapt and overcome.
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On January 19 2012 07:42 ThePianoDentist wrote:
i find it amusing the players who think they lost when they played against a random because of the gigantic economic setback of having to make their gateway at their ramp rather than next to nexus :|
if you don't have enough variety in your game to be able to play versus random (e.g. a protoss player who only knows how to play ffe in PvZ) then that is your own fault, not the random players.
walling off vs terran or protoss is a loss dip shit, or at LEAST strategically unsound. so we play the odds and pylon next to our base vs random, and it's basically a loss vs zerg by opening pylon beside nexus.
now i try to make my statement sound as pretentious as yours.
i find it amusing only a peon such as yourself would believe walling off vs random is the ideal solution. anyone worth replying to knows that if you put a gate at your ramp vs terran or protoss you are going to lose. if you don't have the intelligence to account for this when you give a solution don't bother replying in this thread.
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Northern Ireland25530 Posts
On January 19 2012 07:57 eeizbee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 07:42 ThePianoDentist wrote:
i find it amusing the players who think they lost when they played against a random because of the gigantic economic setback of having to make their gateway at their ramp rather than next to nexus :|
if you don't have enough variety in your game to be able to play versus random (e.g. a protoss player who only knows how to play ffe in PvZ) then that is your own fault, not the random players.
walling off vs terran or protoss is a loss dip shit, or at LEAST strategically unsound. so we play the odds and pylon next to our base vs random, and it's basically a loss vs zerg by opening pylon beside nexus. now i try to make my statement sound as pretentious as yours. i find it amusing only a peon such as yourself would believe walling off vs random is the ideal solution. anyone worth replying to knows that if you put a gate at your ramp vs terran or protoss you are going to lose. if you don't have the intelligence to account for this when you give a solution don't bother replying in this thread.
Quite the belligerent post but agreed.
I also would like to know, after having my question ignored/dodged twice already in this thread now, whether random players who are 'straight up macro players' would accept their race being shown to their opponent in the loading screen. Bit of candour appreciated here folks.
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On January 19 2012 08:21 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 07:57 eeizbee wrote:On January 19 2012 07:42 ThePianoDentist wrote:
i find it amusing the players who think they lost when they played against a random because of the gigantic economic setback of having to make their gateway at their ramp rather than next to nexus :|
if you don't have enough variety in your game to be able to play versus random (e.g. a protoss player who only knows how to play ffe in PvZ) then that is your own fault, not the random players.
walling off vs terran or protoss is a loss dip shit, or at LEAST strategically unsound. so we play the odds and pylon next to our base vs random, and it's basically a loss vs zerg by opening pylon beside nexus. now i try to make my statement sound as pretentious as yours. i find it amusing only a peon such as yourself would believe walling off vs random is the ideal solution. anyone worth replying to knows that if you put a gate at your ramp vs terran or protoss you are going to lose. if you don't have the intelligence to account for this when you give a solution don't bother replying in this thread. Quite the belligerent post but agreed. I also would like to know, after having my question ignored/dodged twice already in this thread now, whether random players who are 'straight up macro players' would accept their race being shown to their opponent in the loading screen. Bit of candour appreciated here folks.
I'm not random but I think it would be a good way (what you proposed was "Random (Protoss)") to valorize random players. It would actually change completely the opinion players have of them.
For now, in my mind, randoms are like the "lowest scum" in SC2 if you will (not quite obviously, but you get the feeling, I don't mind playing against them, but I feel like they're somehow cheating, don't deserve their rank or are just some kids who can't make up their minds on which prank they're going to pull off or something, even if it's not a justifiable opinion and I sound like an asshole.)
It's quite an extreme view, but I'm sure many share it.
If their race was announced together with the fact that they're Random players and not just "Protoss" or "Random", it would actually mark them as very skilled players who have a real MMR of this level with all three races, and they're not just abusing randoming, coinflips and lack of information every game.
If I played Random, I would be glad to have that. It would rule out all those who play random just to trick their opponents of course, while still allowing me my portraits, my titles, achievements and whatnot.
Displaying only the race they spawn with doesn't reward them enough on the other hand, I feel. They're playing 9 matchups dammit, let them have some glory 
Random players who would not be willing to display their race at the start of the game are actually those I don't respect and acknowledge for their skill. That's just how it is, you don't need tricks if you're confident in your skill, my dear randoms. If you want to proxy some shit, at least have the guts to let us know if it's a gateway or a barracks. If you want to play ZvP, you must be ready to face a 8-10 minute 2 base all in fully backed up by the economy of a Nexus first forge FE.
A real man picks his race.
+ Show Spoiler +Wait, so a real man is a race picker? Lol nvm, I'm just spouting bullshit now ;D
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I think its a good idea to show which race a random player is. If somebody ask I always tell them anyways.
The part about random players not earning their rank is in my mind just straight up bs. You simply can't take away the fact that learning three races is way harder than learning one. Do you really think your gateway placement is a bigger problem than learning two additional races?
Real men play random.
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Northern Ireland25530 Posts
On January 19 2012 09:07 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 08:21 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 19 2012 07:57 eeizbee wrote:On January 19 2012 07:42 ThePianoDentist wrote:
i find it amusing the players who think they lost when they played against a random because of the gigantic economic setback of having to make their gateway at their ramp rather than next to nexus :|
if you don't have enough variety in your game to be able to play versus random (e.g. a protoss player who only knows how to play ffe in PvZ) then that is your own fault, not the random players.
walling off vs terran or protoss is a loss dip shit, or at LEAST strategically unsound. so we play the odds and pylon next to our base vs random, and it's basically a loss vs zerg by opening pylon beside nexus. now i try to make my statement sound as pretentious as yours. i find it amusing only a peon such as yourself would believe walling off vs random is the ideal solution. anyone worth replying to knows that if you put a gate at your ramp vs terran or protoss you are going to lose. if you don't have the intelligence to account for this when you give a solution don't bother replying in this thread. Quite the belligerent post but agreed. I also would like to know, after having my question ignored/dodged twice already in this thread now, whether random players who are 'straight up macro players' would accept their race being shown to their opponent in the loading screen. Bit of candour appreciated here folks. I'm not random but I think it would be a good way (what you proposed was "Random (Protoss)") to valorize random players. It would actually change completely the opinion players have of them. For now, in my mind, randoms are like the "lowest scum" in SC2 if you will (not quite obviously, but you get the feeling, I don't mind playing against them, but I feel like they're somehow cheating, don't deserve their rank or are just some kids who can't make up their minds on which prank they're going to pull off or something, even if it's not a justifiable opinion and I sound like an asshole.) It's quite an extreme view, but I'm sure many share it. If their race was announced together with the fact that they're Random players and not just "Protoss" or "Random", it would actually mark them as very skilled players who have a real MMR of this level with all three races, and they're not just abusing randoming, coinflips and lack of information every game. If I played Random, I would be glad to have that. It would rule out all those who play random just to trick their opponents of course, while still allowing me my portraits, my titles, achievements and whatnot. Displaying only the race they spawn with doesn't reward them enough on the other hand, I feel. They're playing 9 matchups dammit, let them have some glory Random players who would not be willing to display their race at the start of the game are actually those I don't respect and acknowledge for their skill. That's just how it is, you don't need tricks if you're confident in your skill, my dear randoms. If you want to proxy some shit, at least have the guts to let us know if it's a gateway or a barracks. If you want to play ZvP, you must be ready to face a 8-10 minute 2 base all in fully backed up by the economy of a Nexus first forge FE. A real man picks his race. + Show Spoiler +Wait, so a real man is a race picker? Lol nvm, I'm just spouting bullshit now ;D
No I totally agree with much you say. It's taken a guy who hates playing against randoms to respond to me, because the random players seem to be refusing to do so. I'm not even bashing I'm just genuinely curious as to how such a change might be perceived by those who play random.
I've been rolling random in custom lately as I have the single worst off-races in history, embarrassingly so. I tell them straight up what race I rolled, but apparently a lot of people just think I'm mind-fucking with them so they try to double bluff me and no wall off vs a Zerg.
Going by the 'one safe build per matchup' rule that is recommended by most for guys starting out at the game, is it really that difficult to play random?
Not hating on randoms by any means just would like a debate on the finer points of the issue. Also my activity in this thread is not at all influenced by all my vRandoms this season being on Tal'Darim Altar. Swear Blizz's matchmaking hates me.
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On January 19 2012 09:35 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going by the 'one safe build per matchup' rule that is recommended by most for guys starting out at the game, is it really that difficult to play random?
Not hating on randoms by any means just would like a debate on the finer points of the issue. Also my activity in this thread is not at all influenced by all my vRandoms this season being on Tal'Darim Altar. Swear Blizz's matchmaking hates me.
I can't speak for anyone else than my self, but I like to switch builds between most games, that turns into quite a few different builds when I have three races to juggle. I play for fun, and I just don't see the fun in doing one build order over and over and over. No matter what way you look at it you have to learn three fundamentally different races. Anyways, as I said earlier in the thread, I like your idea about revealing race on the loading screen.
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No I totally agree with much you say. It's taken a guy who hates playing against randoms to respond to me, because the random players seem to be refusing to do so. I'm not even bashing I'm just genuinely curious as to how such a change might be perceived by those who play random.
I wouldn't care at all. I've played random since release (beta T cause I didn't know wtf was going on in an RTS) and seriously, I might have done like 10 stupid all ins so far. Let them know the race, I'm fine with it. However, it is kinda fun to punish guys who gamble their 66% chance and don't wall off when you actually roll zerg. Or troll people who ask for your race after insulting you first^^
The actual benefit of playing Random is mostly this: You can't get blind cheesed. 6pool maybe but cannon rushed? Blind proxy gated on Shattered? Blind proxy raxed? That shit simply doesn't happen to Randoms a lot and we're all grateful for it.
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On January 19 2012 09:27 kyllinghest wrote:
I think its a good idea to show which race a random player is. If somebody ask I always tell them anyways.
The part about random players not earning their rank is in my mind just straight up bs. You simply can't take away the fact that learning three races is way harder than learning one. Do you really think your gateway placement is a bigger problem than learning two additional races?
Real men play random.
You know what, it's actually to the point where I would prefer switching on the fly my race to Terran when I'm matched against Random. At least my first building doesn't cost me the game. And I'm surely confident enough in my offrace to take on a random player.
And if you think I exagerate about the whole "first pylon" thing, you never played PvR with R spawned as P trying to proxy gate you (well, maybe in a mirror matchup of yours, the oh-so silly Random vs Random).
I think I could devise easily an entire strategy to win against Protoss if I'm Protoss myself but he doesn't know it and sillily builds his first pylon at the ramp, and whatever he's doing next. One of the keys to hold proxies in PvP is to pull probes to cover your pylon and your lesser zealot force, but if your pylon/production is too far, you're just dead as shit. Imagine taking your hatch first as Zerg in the middle of the map, good luck defending the bunker rush with the drones in your main...
Similarly, there must be some kind of timing the Zerg can exploit if you build your pylon near your nexus (otherwise people would not have walled off at the ramp for one whole year of SC2). Zerg players don't even know themselves because for straight up Zerg players, it's a given than P will wall off or attempt a forge FE. A speedling timing can be quite deadly imo: if you wall with your second pylon, you must build 2 extra buildings, let's say the core, and another gate. When do you get that other gate? The earliest possible? Well you're probably going to have to cut something, a gas or a unit, but something very important against whatever all in Zerg chooses to do.
Protoss may be the easiest race, I'm no one to judge, but one thing I'm quite convinced of, is that it's the most fragile race in the first 5-6 minutes of the game. You have like 2 combat units, and it's enough to kill one of your supply building to shutdown completely all your production. You don't have repair, you can't make static defenses, so you rely on clever building placement (there are entire thread about perfect simcities for FFE on all the maps), or at least not dumb as shit as in putting your first gateway at the ramp against P or T...
Btw you'll probably get the harshest comments from Protoss, and the least from Terran, arguably cheese-proof.
So to conclude, no, obviously, we don't learn 2 whole different races, but we can have free losses under 5 minutes. Can your randomed Terran have that? No.
Losing a game in less than 5 minutes because we made bad decision-making (eventhoughwecouldn'tdoanythingaboutitbecausegoshyou'rerandom) doesn't make us feel good, so we feel we don't have to show respect for the cause of this: Random.
Then again, I said that there are straight up random macro players, obviously, and I don't have anything against those. I would advance that randoms on TL don't represent the whole random demography very well, but trust me, I've been cheesed a lot by randoms when I was in diamond. Random cheese, and will always cheese. I mean that's kinda the beauty of it right? The opponent doesn't know, better trick him fast hahahaha. You must understand that most randoms on the ladder think that way.
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You deserve extra points or smth for posting such a cute pic <3
Yeah you could always just ask what race they are, when i go random i always say something like gg gl I'm Terran or whatever.
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Well, I guess we're discussing around each other a bit here, as I also think its a good idea with a system where the randoms race is revealed at the loading screen. I also understand your protoss frustration, as I many times have protossed vs random, its a bitch. I still think playing random is by far the hardest, and if I could random only between T and P I would immediately take a good bump up on the ladder, but hey, thats the catch of randoming, you play and enjoy all races, even though its way harder than playing just one (my opinion).
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can't say so much about zvr but pvr is fine as long as your not hung up on needing to wall with first pylon/gate/core
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All the things people complain about with playing against random are things the random players also have to deal with. Maybe you feel like random players are more likely to cheese, but there are cheesers everywhere just learn to deal with it. I've played plenty of random and I've been cannon rushed, 6 pooled and marine scv'd plenty of times.
Think of it as great practice, if you can hold off a 6 pool from random zerg then you're going to have no issues against a player who 6 pools after choosing zerg.
If you can win a macro game after playing a sub-optimal opening then you're going to really crush when you can open with what you think is the optimal opening.
Quit hating against the random players and just get better. If a player is a random cheeser and you have been matched against them that means their cheese is beating about 50% of the players at your level. Which 50% are you in?
(Incidently I'd be in favour of having a Random Baller race option where my opponent could see my race.)
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Northern Ireland25530 Posts
My god, you are a genius MrAverage. You encourage the random players to reveal their race and genuinely playing straight up by giving them something in return. I wish this was actually implemented so I too could be a baller
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I always scout a lot earlier if I play a random player!
1. Because I feel like random players normally cheese more. Proxy 2 rax, proxy 2 gate,6 pool.
2. I wanna know what race they play.
If it's tal'darim I only scout for proxies while I open pool first unless I happen to see (his scouting workers) what race he plays.
I also feel like random players generally should be worse at playing their race in a longer game. If I know that the guy I'm facing is only playing terran 1/3 of the time and he rarely goes to macro game that I will have the advantage.
( I play Z )
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I'm a masters random player and i must say, playing random does have some advantages.. but people just can't appreciate how hard it is to play random and maintain a good record. Just think about how technical it is to master each mirror matchup.
That's why a lot of random players cheese in lower leagues. It's because they have no confidence in the later stages of the game.
Zvr is pretty easy. 14 pool is super safe. So is 15 hatch if you scout well, it may only autolose to a very early cheese pool.
TvR is also pretty easy on most maps. Wall off? it's good. scout for prxy voids if toss. Fine easy, safe. If it's a large macro oriented map, Rax expand is fine vs any race. even if they cheese.
PvR is a bit harder. I prefer making a 12 gate and then scouting after the gateway, that way you can still prepare for pvp....
Honestly it's not that hard, just scout early and dont rely on builds like forge fast, 15 nexus.
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I'm a master random player and I always go long macro game mayb except for mirrors zvz and pvp dont last that long anyways. I prefer random coz I get less mirror matches as I hate them so much. (I like TvT thou) Also playing random gives and edge against the opponent so you shouldn't ask like a dickhead and what race I got. What would be the point in that.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5L23t.jpg)
