EPT[D] VS Random ? - Page 9
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On January 19 2012 14:06 SKTerran.117 wrote: marauder expand is really bad on any map where you should be gasless expanding your basicly delaying your expansion for no reason, plus making it harder for yourself to hold void ray all ins who said anything about marauder expanding? =/ 1 rax Gasless or Reaper FE | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
Or quitting is fine too since it's only ladder and knowing how to vs Random isn't exactly a life-changing skill. I'm Terran but I think if I saw a Random I'd open 12 rax 13 gas and then I should know what race he is and play standard from there. | ||
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tome567
United States18 Posts
Random has these advantages: - generally a better game knowledge due to playing all races - knowledge of the matchup - ability to stop match specific builds and these disadvantages: - have to learn 9 matchups (complete with timings, counters, builds, and all the like) - less practice with each individual race I think that the current system rewards random players for choosing random by giving them the edge of knowing the matchup. For example, if im playing a protoss on taldarim and i roll zerg, the toss would most likely ffe if they knew i was zerg. Since they can't, i can take advantage of knowing that i will have an economic advantage, but also, i should probably play safer because people tend to be aggressive if they dont ffe. I also think that random players strength should be in creative/unorthodox play. In order to makeup for not practicing only one race's mechanics I think random players should try to play in a style that makes all 3 races similar. For example, I play blink stalker into zealot archon pvz and dts into zealot archon pvt because the warpgate mechanic works similar to the larvae mechanic in that you build units at once instead of constantly checking the queues. playing something like mech zvt helps me nothing playing zerg with a lot of lings. TL;DR Random gets some advantages by having their race hidden, imho randoms should play a similar style all 3 races. | ||
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Ariuz
Germany39 Posts
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 19 2012 13:26 kofman wrote: i have absolutely no respect for randoms. i bm every random i find as hard as i can, because they take advantage of a broken system. seriously, on a map like tal'darim, you have to scout on 8 as Terran, which is insanely early and makes ur economy so much worse. also, theres a 1/3 chance that ur opponent spawned on the place you checked last, meaning that you can't do a particular build like reactored hellion tvz or maruder expand tvp, instead you have to do some tweaner build that is bad vs both zerg and protoss so that you don't autolose, since reactored hellion expand is terrible vs protoss. they should really make it so that random's race is displayed in the beginning, so that they don't autowin a good percentage of their games just because you happenned to spawn in the location that was checked last. You don't have to guess wtf. You can scout after depot if you're paranoid and still find their race in time to do a specific build. Seriously people who bm randoms for no reason are assholes. Learn to scout, it's not that hard. I've never cheesed as random, but what's the difference in randoms cheesing and a Terran 2rax allining, Protoss 4gating, or Zerg 7pooling every game? Do you bm them too? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16122 Posts
On January 19 2012 15:38 K3Nyy wrote: You don't have to guess wtf. You can scout after depot if you're paranoid and still find their race in time to do a specific build. Seriously people who bm randoms for no reason are assholes. Learn to scout, it's not that hard. I've never cheesed as random, but what's the difference in randoms cheesing and a Terran 2rax allining, Protoss 4gating, or Zerg 7pooling every game? Do you bm them too? BMing cheesers is one thing. BMing every random regardless of how they play is what this guy is actually admitting to. One is understandable and one isn't. | ||
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Honcepoi
Germany29 Posts
The Thing is that I have to learn the Way Protoss and Terran is played in every matchup. So I think for that I diserve it to not display my race. Every player playing just 1 race should think that he must be better than the random player in a normal game. So if you think you are the better player why not scout early? That few minerals dont hurt if you are the better player anyways. By the time I was playing 1 race I always scouted early and played my normal game without minding my opponent was even playing random. The few scouting minerals are in my opinion just an excuse. Most people like to play greedy and dont scout or scout late. So if a random forces you to play safe and scout them early they think the matchup is not fair anymore... | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On January 19 2012 15:38 K3Nyy wrote: You don't have to guess wtf. You can scout after depot if you're paranoid and still find their race in time to do a specific build. Seriously people who bm randoms for no reason are assholes. Learn to scout, it's not that hard. I've never cheesed as random, but what's the difference in randoms cheesing and a Terran 2rax allining, Protoss 4gating, or Zerg 7pooling every game? Do you bm them too? No, even if you scout after depot, there is no way to see what race they are if they spawn on the 3rd position you check on tal'darim before you have to take your 13 gas. tvp i gasless expand and tvz and tvt i do 111, if i don't scout random on either 1st or 2nd position, i have to take a guess whether the random is protoss, zerg, or terran. basically, if the opponent turns out to be protoss and i take gas, i lose. if my opponent is zerg or terran and i don't take gas, i lose. its a coinflip. I BM randoms for a reason. its because they start the game with an unfair advantage, something that even scouting doesn't help sometimes. "I've never cheesed as random"... really? never? there is no way you have never cheesed before. i don't hate randoms that cheese any more than i would race pickers that cheese. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On January 19 2012 15:42 Vindicare605 wrote: BMing cheesers is one thing. BMing every random regardless of how they play is what this guy is actually admitting to. One is understandable and one isn't. people don't like cheesers becuase they are cheap. randoms are cheap, too, because you sometimes autolose just because of the spawn positions and what race the random is. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16122 Posts
On January 19 2012 16:23 kofman wrote: people don't like cheesers becuase they are cheap. randoms are cheap, too, because you sometimes autolose just because of the spawn positions and what race the random is. You do not auto lose stop being dramatic at the absolute WORST, your first command center is slightly delayed. Terrans lose NOTHING else in the time it takes to scout a random if they send their SCV to scout after they build their first depot. you're a terran player. 12 rax, 13 gas/supplydepot block is safe from EVERY early cheese anyone can throw at you. Zergs can autolose vs a random if they drop a 15 hatch, Protoss can autolose if they forge fast expand vs a random that spawns as Protoss. Terrans should NEVER autolose to a random unless you're doing some dumb proxy rax crap and find out your opponent has spawned on the other side of the map. | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
On January 19 2012 10:24 Sajaki wrote: You deserve extra points or smth for posting such a cute pic <3 Yeah you could always just ask what race they are, when i go random i always say something like gg gl I'm Terran or whatever. Yea i would always tell the enemy what race, but only if they wanted to know though. The main problem with that are the two points that has been discussed for like 9 pages (haha) now. 1: They may not believe you when you say your race and just ignore your deep and sincere honesty 2: Just because you are random they excpect you too do some early shinanigans without economic follow ups and will just play overly safe or, do some early shinanigans themselves. The latter i would personally consider fighting the purpose of logic and consistency by: You presume that random cheese, you dont like cheese, you cheese. What if the random doesnt like cheese either?  My only tips too people playing random would be: Scout early and accept your economic backwardness, or accept that you wont know their race before one of you bravely ventures through the mist of war. And dont underestimate the power of a random macroer. And random players. Do what you find the most fun :D | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
You mine gas until you have scouted him and then stop at 50 or 75. You can then go for a reactored barracks expand (slightly outdated build, but the most economical gas expand build), or techlab reaper expand, depending on your preference. Both are very similar to 1 rax gasless expand in their followups so you shouldn't be too thrown off. I think those builds are honestly quite reasonable trade-offs. If I could do something similar as Protoss I would but you can't do interesting builds like that with P, we're very matchup dependent. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On January 19 2012 13:26 kofman wrote: i have absolutely no respect for randoms. i bm every random i find as hard as i can, because they take advantage of a broken system. seriously, on a map like tal'darim, you have to scout on 8 as Terran, which is insanely early and makes ur economy so much worse. also, theres a 1/3 chance that ur opponent spawned on the place you checked last, meaning that you can't do a particular build like reactored hellion tvz or maruder expand tvp, instead you have to do some tweaner build that is bad vs both zerg and protoss so that you don't autolose, since reactored hellion expand is terrible vs protoss. they should really make it so that random's race is displayed in the beginning, so that they don't autowin a good percentage of their games just because you happenned to spawn in the location that was checked last. wow what a tool. Why would you bm anyone? if you didn't bm maybe they'd tell you their race. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
But yeah, you shouldn't BM anyway on Bnet  | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On January 18 2012 22:09 Tobberoth wrote: According to Snute, high GM EU, hatch first in ZvZ is a build order loss to 10 pool or earlier pool, drones or not. He actively uses it a lot because he finds it so ridiculous that zergs actually attempt to hatch first in ZvZ. According to all the Zergs in GSL 9 pool or earlier is holdable if you play well enough (and I've held all of these). 10 pool plus drones has never been held in a tournament as far as I know, almost every other early pool build is OFTEN beaten by hatch first. Obviously somebody who is good enough at x-pooling and attacking with just lings can still take wins, but if you don't pull drones it's not a hard counter and if you do earlier than 10-pool you can still lose. I'm not grandmaster of course, but 6, 7 & 8 pool aren't actually too hard to hold at all, IMO. 9-pool and 10-pool are way harder to stop, IMO (especially if they pull drones, no drones, no worries). 6 or 7 pool are auto-loss vs ANY Zerg opener if no mistakes are made. Maybe it's just that I've had more practice (I get cheesed all the time as a random player) at holding off early pools, but I'm not scared of most early pool builds (which is not to say that I never lose, I'm just not scared, just like sometimes I lose to a 3-rax in PvT, but it's not something that I'm actively scared of). EDIT: Also, I whole-heartedly agree that my race should be shown on the loading screen. Announcing it seems pointless as almost no players will actually believe me. I'd like to know which hotkey I'm about to use as well as be able to play more normal games . | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote: In addition, many random players just cheese/all-in (i don't know why). Maybe because it's easier to learn 3 matchups rather than 9? Maybe because it's easier to macro and micro one race rather than three? Against randoms, I either 7pool allin (only sad when they're Terran) or 11pool 18hatch which is safe against anything really and then transition into the usual build order off of that. | ||
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SEA KarMa
Australia452 Posts
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