EPTAnd yes, I throw in the occasional cheese and people rage. I also get cheesed a lot (way more than as Z or P). Part of the fun. And lol @ someone calling cheese "shady shit". Like it was illegal or something..
[D] VS Random ? - Page 11
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d00p
711 Posts
And yes, I throw in the occasional cheese and people rage. I also get cheesed a lot (way more than as Z or P). Part of the fun. And lol @ someone calling cheese "shady shit". Like it was illegal or something.. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 19 2012 16:21 kofman wrote: No, even if you scout after depot, there is no way to see what race they are if they spawn on the 3rd position you check on tal'darim before you have to take your 13 gas. tvp i gasless expand and tvz and tvt i do 111, if i don't scout random on either 1st or 2nd position, i have to take a guess whether the random is protoss, zerg, or terran. basically, if the opponent turns out to be protoss and i take gas, i lose. if my opponent is zerg or terran and i don't take gas, i lose. its a coinflip. I BM randoms for a reason. its because they start the game with an unfair advantage, something that even scouting doesn't help sometimes. "I've never cheesed as random"... really? never? there is no way you have never cheesed before. i don't hate randoms that cheese any more than i would race pickers that cheese. Lol.. if you take gas vs P and no gas vs T/Z, you lose? Associating a loss because you couldn't gasless expand is really laughable. You can do so much stuff with gas, you even said you marauder expand in your earlier post. I feel like you're just making up excuses to hate on randoms. If you lose the game, chances are it's 100% your fault, not because you couldn't gasless expand. | ||
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copacetic
56 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 19 2012 23:11 kyllinghest wrote: Im sorry we have a different opinion, but that doesnt in anyways make me retarded. I strongly believe that if you can't manage to mix up your builds as a terran vs random you don't deserve to win versus said random player who has to juggle way more builds. You dont HAVE to learn more builds. You choose to as your play R. You should not need to learn more than 1 build for BO1 format. Why2, why not 3? If 3 why not 4. You see my point. Is it literally you think T need a TvR specific build is safe. Playing TvR builds will always put you behind a R if they get the lucky race, and never ahead. Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:32 Tobberoth wrote: No you can't, the same constraint holds. Sure, lets say a random player has played 6000 games, about 2000 for each race, and you've only played 2000 for your race. You're in equal positions on the ladder, and you've played the same amount of games for your races. You lose to the random player. That's sort of like losing to a smurf, the random player has gimped himself and would have been MUCH better had he played all those 6000 games on a main race. While that means that you can definitely meet a random player who is good enough with his race to take you down in a straight up game, it's not something you should worry about since it makes sense to lose to someone who has played 3 times the amount you have. There exists something called the 80-20 rule (idk if that's it exactly but the point holds constant). You achieve 80% of your skill in 20% of the time and the remaining 20% in 80% of the time. I play random because my 20% effort puts me into masters. My mindset and previous knowledge puts me in masters with minimal effort (20%) but it would take a lot of effort to advance past that (80%) so I just have fun and random and don't really worry about improving that much. Every random player has his strengths and weaknesses. My overall macro is pretty solid, so even when learning a new build for a new race I can take it to the lategame pretty confidently. My weakness is in holding off all the small variances of the all-ins the opponent can do in the early game. To beat a random player, my suggestion would be to play a high pressure style (ex: muta play instead of infestor play ZvT or ZvP) because forcing a random player onto his backfoot forces him into a scenario he is in 1/3rd as often, and it's a scenario you really have to play through to learn. Anyone can have solid macro but when you have to put so much of your focus into just pulling it off, constant harass/pressure will be much more detrimental to their play. | ||
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coriamon
244 Posts
Most people believe that they need to use the most standard play to be ahead. I believe this to be wrong. As Terran, a build such as a banshee expand works well vs every race. As Protoss, a 3 gate opening works well. If you scout that the opponent is protoss after, just add a robo, and start building stalkers instead of sentries. You will be in the defensive nature initially, but you still will be fine vs every race. As Zerg, a 14/14 doesn't put you behind (even a terran); it just is sacrificing a little econ for tech. And the tech is needed anyways. It means that your expo will be completely safe to every race. Learn 4 builds instead of 3. It will help vs random every time. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 20 2012 05:22 coriamon wrote: Think of it this way... you should have at least one build that works versus every race. Most people believe that they need to use the most standard play to be ahead. I believe this to be wrong. As Terran, a build such as a banshee expand works well vs every race. As Protoss, a 3 gate opening works well. If you scout that the opponent is protoss after, just add a robo, and start building stalkers instead of sentries. You will be in the defensive nature initially, but you still will be fine vs every race. As Zerg, a 14/14 doesn't put you behind (even a terran); it just is sacrificing a little econ for tech. And the tech is needed anyways. It means that your expo will be completely safe to every race. 14/14 does put you behind vs terran. | ||
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LucidityDark
United Kingdom139 Posts
Random cheesers annoy me in the idea that they usually can't play the game any other and thus have to have a random element added, backed by a really powerful all in (cheese) to win games. O fcourse people who do this usually suck at micro and macro and as such shoot themselves in the foot before losing the game due to stupidity. | ||
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coriamon
244 Posts
No it doesn't. Your econ will behind initially, but your expo will be safer for a longer time. (there will be a timing to attack a little earlier if you don't get speed) Therefore, you get more drones, and a higher economy LATER in the game. | ||
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copacetic
56 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 20 2012 05:26 coriamon wrote: No it doesn't. Your econ will behind initially, but your expo will be safer for a longer time. (there will be a timing to attack a little earlier if you don't get speed) Therefore, you get more drones, and a higher economy LATER in the game. You will not hold a good 2 rax with 14/14. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On January 20 2012 05:26 coriamon wrote: No it doesn't. Your econ will behind initially, but your expo will be safer for a longer time. (there will be a timing to attack a little earlier if you don't get speed) Therefore, you get more drones, and a higher economy LATER in the game. This can be argued back and forth endlessly, but in my opinion: - 14 / 14 is valid, but not optimal in ZvZ most of the time (I prefer 11 gas 11 pool 18 baneling nest or 15 hatch 15 gas pool - it gives you slightly faster speed and faster banelings than 14 / 14 and allows you to be the offensive player). - 14 / 14 is valid against X gate expand, but puts you behind vs forge expand. - 14 / 14 simply puts you behind vs terran no matter what they are doing. If they 2 rax, you die. 14 / 14 is a good build to use if you just want to practice one build for each matchup, but it's really not optimal in any matchup I feel. Most valid would be ZvP on a map that's hard to forge expand on. My opinion. | ||
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DoomInASuit
United States23 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On January 20 2012 04:26 LuisFrost wrote: Seriously, WHY CAN'T YOU JUST FUCKING ASK FOR THE RACE I GOT AS RANDOM? I tried announcing it at the start as some people here say, but in return people get MORE paranoid, and therefore start a worse BM than if I just ignore them, "if u say ur race ur not dat race u cheesy random n00b". So, at least for me in the NA ladder it's not a pleasant option. The problem would go away if your race was revealed in the opening screen; I'm OK with that idea. As some people say, TDA is terrible vsR. I used to ask, and when people refused to say, I just left the game and gave them the points. Then I started 6 pooling instead, since most people didn't tell me their race - or lied. So that's why I don't ask any longer and just 6 pool  Ideally from my point of view, the race should be announced on the preview screen. On the other hand, I do believe that someone that manage to play all 3 races, deserves the slight advantage being random gives him. | ||
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LuisFrost
Mexico130 Posts
On January 20 2012 05:37 aebriol wrote: I used to ask, and when people refused to say, I just left the game and gave them the points. Then I started 6 pooling instead, since most people didn't tell me their race - or lied. So that's why I don't ask any longer and just 6 pool Ideally from my point of view, the race should be announced on the preview screen. On the other hand, I do believe that someone that manage to play all 3 races, deserves the slight advantage being random gives him. 6pool is a nice option too. I either get toss and lose every time, zerg and lose most of the time or terran and win with one marine. Either way it ends fast. | ||
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Mercy13
United States718 Posts
On January 20 2012 04:26 LuisFrost wrote: Seriously, WHY CAN'T YOU JUST FUCKING ASK FOR THE RACE I GOT AS RANDOM? I tried announcing it at the start as some people here say, but in return people get MORE paranoid, and therefore start a worse BM than if I just ignore them, "if u say ur race ur not dat race u cheesy random n00b". So, at least for me in the NA ladder it's not a pleasant option. The problem would go away if your race was revealed in the opening screen; I'm OK with that idea. As some people say, TDA is terrible vsR. Still, very few people ask for my race and I always tell the truth. Sometimes I play randoms, when they lie about their race you'll find out fast enough to start preparing for something fishy (unless it's TDA, of course). So please guys, I BEG YOU, spread hate against randoms only after you see what happens if you ask for the race. If after that experiment most of us DO turn out to be cheese evil scumbags... well, guess I'll have to start wearing punk hairstyles or something. PD: Until I get my panda decal I won't roll a dice. Sorry for playing the game I paid for in the way I find it the most rewarding. When I am vR I always open with "glhf race?" A couple randoms have told me (and none of them have lied) but the vast majority either ignore me or say something rude. It sucks that people like that who think they deserve a random advantage give players like yourself a bad reputation. I have a TON of respect for random players who are willing to share their race, at least when they are asked. You truly do know how to play all 9 matchups, unlike other randoms who just know RvP, RvT, and RvZ. The rest of you on the other hand.... You deserve the BM you get for abusing the random advantage. It's bad enough when you do some stupid all in that your opponent can't prepare an optimal defense for, but imo it's EVEN WORSE when you use the random advantage to do a greedy econ build because your opponent is trying to blind counter the myriad possible cheeses that many random players prefer. | ||
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copacetic
56 Posts
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eeizbee
Canada19 Posts
You deserve the BM you get for abusing the random advantage. It's bad enough when you do some stupid all in that your opponent can't prepare an optimal defense for, but imo it's EVEN WORSE when you use the random advantage to do a greedy econ build because your opponent is trying to blind counter the myriad possible cheeses that many random players prefer. they deserve more than the BM, unless random players get their race shown on the loading screen they are just talentless noobs that can't play a real game. they get a 3 minute tactical advantage on TDA, maybe a 1 minute or 2 minute advantage on smaller maps. an advantage like that, at the most fragile part in the game (the beginning), in a game as finely balanced as starcraft is a joke. and it isnt just a slight tactical advantage, it is a 100% tactical advantage. | ||
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Prometheas
Canada8 Posts
I played X matches as one race VS He played X/3 matches as the race is currently therefore I will win vs random. Most random players I know have a weak race, and it drags them down. Mine is terran. And most random players I know have way more games played than single race players of the same level, because of their weak race dragging them down. Someone on one of the first few pages also mentioned this but everyone seemed to ignore this. Also most random players I know are the type to be less afraid to damage their ladder ranking by experiementing or trying new things unpracticed on ladder. This hurts ladder ranking and ends up them being matched against weaker players. Moral of my story, don't underestimate them, they might just be, you know, having fun... and maybe they can kick your ass  | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On January 20 2012 06:32 Prometheas wrote: Moral of my story, don't underestimate them, they might just be, you know, having fun... and maybe they can kick your ass Oh, most random players I met before I started 6 pooling them every game, were quite good. They just lacked a solid gameplan from 130 - 200 food. Basically, they had really good idea about how to play 1 and 2 base, and maybe 3, but 4-5 base play they were lacking in upgrades and late on really good unit compositions. (that was masters league 4-5 months ago). I died a lot vs random to well thought out and decently executed 2 base all ins though | ||
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