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On January 20 2012 06:24 eeizbee wrote:Show nested quote +
You deserve the BM you get for abusing the random advantage. It's bad enough when you do some stupid all in that your opponent can't prepare an optimal defense for, but imo it's EVEN WORSE when you use the random advantage to do a greedy econ build because your opponent is trying to blind counter the myriad possible cheeses that many random players prefer.
they deserve more than the BM, unless random players get their race shown on the loading screen they are just talentless noobs that can't play a real game. they get a 3 minute tactical advantage on TDA, maybe a 1 minute or 2 minute advantage on smaller maps. an advantage like that, at the most fragile part in the game (the beginning), in a game as finely balanced as starcraft is a joke. and it isnt just a slight tactical advantage, it is a 100% tactical advantage.
haha.
As someone who plays all 3 races and can easily say that Protoss is by far the easiest race to play, I find the notion of you even attempting to call Random players talentless noobs to be laughable.
What? The fact you're forced to scout and react at the start of the game makes it not a real game? The fact that you can't do a gimmicky predetermined build order and have to have a back up game plan makes it not a real game?
Here's a hint. 1 gate expand, into fast robo/obs and stay active with your probe scout. You can wall off your nat with your second and third gates instead of a forge if they're zerg and if they're going to 6-7 pool you an early gate is actually a superior defensive build against that. If it's going to be roach ling, you'll be able to hold it with the help of the faster robotics facility. If it's terran? That's a standard opening anyway for a macro game, if it's a protoss? Cancel the nexus and drop 2 more gates.
Just because you're terrible at reacting on the fly and you have to go by predetermined build orders doesn't mean it isn't a real game it just means you aren't a real SC2 player you're just a pretender.
User was warned for this post
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haha.
As someone who plays all 3 races and can easily say that Protoss is by far the easiest race to play, I find the notion of you even attempting to call Random players talentless noobs to be laughable.
What? The fact you're forced to scout and react at the start of the game makes it not a real game? The fact that you can't do a gimmicky predetermined build order and have to have a back up game plan makes it not a real game?
Here's a hint. 1 gate expand, into fast robo/obs and stay active with your probe scout. You can wall off your nat with your second and third gates instead of a forge if they're zerg and if they're going to 6-7 pool you an early gate is actually a superior defensive build against that. If it's going to be roach ling, you'll be able to hold it with the help of the faster robotics facility. If it's terran? That's a standard opening anyway for a macro game, if it's a protoss? Cancel the nexus and drop 2 more gates.
Just because you're terrible at reacting on the fly and you have to go by predetermined build orders doesn't mean it isn't a real game it just means you aren't a real SC2 player you're just a pretender.
lol i love how your dissing me for not being able to do a gimicky predetermined build order,when the fact is the random gains the ability to do a gimicky predetermined build order and instead of scouting to figure out what one it is, i just have to guess between the 30 different openers all 3 races have, and hope i havn't screwed up too badly to win by the time i scout.
keep justifying being a random fag, i think you literally just came on here to give me shit advice against randoms and hope i believe you. yeah, i'm going to 1 gate expand into robo against randoms, that's some solid fucking advice buddy. you must sell strats to pro's with shit like that just coming off the top of your head.
User was warned for this post
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On January 20 2012 06:32 Prometheas wrote:as a random player I would like to point out the flaw of the I played X matches as one race VS He played X/3 matches as the race is currently therefore I will win vs random. Most random players I know have a weak race, and it drags them down. Mine is terran. And most random players I know have way more games played than single race players of the same level, because of their weak race dragging them down. Someone on one of the first few pages also mentioned this but everyone seemed to ignore this. Also most random players I know are the type to be less afraid to damage their ladder ranking by experiementing or trying new things unpracticed on ladder. This hurts ladder ranking and ends up them being matched against weaker players. Moral of my story, don't underestimate them, they might just be, you know, having fun... and maybe they can kick your ass 
QTF
I have 2 normal race (P and T) and a "strong" race Z, which is probably above the league I play in.
I also don't care much about ladder ranking. Once in Season 3, I was cheesed from plat to silver. All I did was laugh and adapted a safer playstyle and was back in plat again. I also don't always play random. When my T was the weakest race, I switched to T to practise, and once accumulated 10+ straight losses figuring out the sky terran's BO (most ppl would do it in custom games?) and timings.
Those who stick with 1 race (probably because it's easier to improve with 1 race) have a different mindset (I want to raise my ranking) thus the random hate/fear. There are also people who abuse the random early game adv and cheese and that does not help.
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On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote:
Hi everyone.
I personally dislike when i'm against a random player. Because i just can't do an usual opening.
In addition, many random players just cheese/all-in (i don't know why). I encounter very few random players on the ladder, but they all all-in.
So when i'm facing a random player, i just go 7RR or 6pool. And i feel like "what a useless game ...".
Yesterday, i did a 7RR and the random player was 6 pooling. 6 pool VS 7RR, what a game ^^
How do you play against random players on the ladder ?
Don't go around generalizing like that. It's a very bad habit to get into.
While it's true that about half the randoms out there DO do some sort of cheese or all in, the others strive for a macro game almost every damn time (except maybe as Protoss or in ZvZ).
You can say the same thing about Zergs, Protosses, and Terrans out there (actually, you can just say now that Terrans open Reactor Hellions, then do a VERY fucking retarded 1 base timing push behind it).
Back when I played random and got another random, I usually went for the "safe" build, which is 14 gas 14 pool, then cried when I saw they were Terran or a Zerg that opened Hatch first. But since then, I've heard a pro (I think it was EG.Machine, don't quote me on that) said that you might as well open 15 Hatch against randoms, because there's a 2/3 chance you could get away with it relatively easily, and if it's Protoss then they need to scout you reasonably quickly to do something about it. And from there you pray the Protoss didn't open 1 base and try to fend off cannons as best as you can (though current maps make Chrono Boosted Zealots a little less deadly).
I mean, if it's a Z and they opened 6 Pool, that sucks. If it's a Protoss that opens proxy gates, well that sucks. But does it really matter if you knew what race they were when they cheese you that early? They both have basically the same response (anything except a hatch first). If you're really scared, you can still go 14 Pool 16 Hatch (though I still prefer hatch first).
I mean, ZvR is better than TvR or PvR. What does Terran go? 1 Rax CC? Open gas and scout early on whether you're going Barracks pressure, Banshees, or Reactor Hellions? Or just say "Fuck it, I'm going Banshees"? Protoss gets screwed into opening 1 base. They die if they early expo improperly in PvP, and die if Terran does the right build order. And if they Forge FE, they're a little screwed against Terran. Zerg is lucky that they have 2 openers that's reasonably strong against all 3 races (though both have a little bit of a gamble to them, but nothing drastic). Protoss definitely doesn't have such a build, and I find Banshees gimmicky vs Zerg (though they DO work).
Standard OV scout, and scout on 10 (I get in early in case I want to deny gas on a 1 base Protoss if I ever catch 1).
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On January 20 2012 07:17 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 06:24 eeizbee wrote:
You deserve the BM you get for abusing the random advantage. It's bad enough when you do some stupid all in that your opponent can't prepare an optimal defense for, but imo it's EVEN WORSE when you use the random advantage to do a greedy econ build because your opponent is trying to blind counter the myriad possible cheeses that many random players prefer.
they deserve more than the BM, unless random players get their race shown on the loading screen they are just talentless noobs that can't play a real game. they get a 3 minute tactical advantage on TDA, maybe a 1 minute or 2 minute advantage on smaller maps. an advantage like that, at the most fragile part in the game (the beginning), in a game as finely balanced as starcraft is a joke. and it isnt just a slight tactical advantage, it is a 100% tactical advantage. haha. As someone who plays all 3 races and can easily say that Protoss is by far the easiest race to play, I find the notion of you even attempting to call Random players talentless noobs to be laughable. What? The fact you're forced to scout and react at the start of the game makes it not a real game? The fact that you can't do a gimmicky predetermined build order and have to have a back up game plan makes it not a real game? Here's a hint. 1 gate expand, into fast robo/obs and stay active with your probe scout. You can wall off your nat with your second and third gates instead of a forge if they're zerg and if they're going to 6-7 pool you an early gate is actually a superior defensive build against that. If it's going to be roach ling, you'll be able to hold it with the help of the faster robotics facility. If it's terran? That's a standard opening anyway for a macro game, if it's a protoss? Cancel the nexus and drop 2 more gates. Just because you're terrible at reacting on the fly and you have to go by predetermined build orders doesn't mean it isn't a real game it just means you aren't a real SC2 player you're just a pretender. User was warned for this post
You can't say which race is the easiest to play due to differences in mechanics and mindsets to play each race. Zerg is my worst race simply because you require mechanical restraint. And for someone like me who normally macroes on cues that DON'T include the resources in the top right gets screwed over when he's just constantly spamming 8sd every few seconds while controlling my army (I use 8 for all Hatcheries and CCs). As a result, I often get supply blocked (getting better at watching my supply now) and because of the fact that I like to be greedy and constantly make workers, I get caught by MANY VERY DUMB all ins. I'll die with 60+ Drones at the 10 minute mark.
But as Terran, it's so much easier for me as I just go through my building hotkeys to make sure they're making something, and if I have idle SCVs, it more often than not means I need to make a Supply Depot.
As Protoss, it's similar in that I just keep going 8eeee for Probes, and I can't really overmake either Probes or SCVs. Then I'll get Gateways (which are the hardest for me to keep up in macro with), which basically means I have a general timing/cycle to produce units to be safe. And I'm much more comfortable BUILDING Supply Buildings than a Supply UNIT that could've been a harvester or an offensive unit, so even if I don't have idle Probes, I'm more on top of my macro as Protoss.
I also pay MUCH MORE ATTENTION to Protoss and Terran upgrades because they require a building to unlock the +2 and +3. And that building takes little time to make.
Protoss is NOT by far the easiest to play. For YOU it may be, but for others it's not (most will probably say Terran since it's easy to be a mechanical zombie and end up with a ton of units because all you really need to adjust is what production buildings you have). Just because I think Zerg is the hardest doesn't necessarily mean it's the hardest race either. People who have a good cue for when to stop droning and when to make overlords will do MUCH better than I do (wouldn't hurt if overlords had better movement speed so you could actually scout a fucking Terran's base if they opened Hellions). Then there will be people who thinks Protoss is the hardest race. Not only might players have difficulty in the macro aspects of a race, but also the micro aspects. Since I normally play Terran now, I'm used to setting up a army spread, which helps a lot when having Roaches defend or getting into ZvZ ling battles. But for Protoss, you generally sit in a ball and use spells to control the fight (Force Fields, Psi Storms, Guardian Shield, Feedback). As Terran, you Stim small packs of units to pick off enemy units or harass expansions. And when using Tanks, you generally want to be preset in a defensive position and have the enemy come to you. To be caught in the middle of the map unsieged more often than not means an instant loss. A player who overcommits to being Seiged as Terran ends up being REALLY slow and applying almost no pressure, but a Terran who rushes in dies. A Protoss who can't accurately cast their spells dies in the midgame to a likely superior force of units. A Zerg who can't control his army properly looks like he's sending units in a line to die. Each race is meant to be played in a different way. Some people are naturally comfortable playing one style over another, which is why they play a race that other people may call them an idiot for playing.
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As a random player, I am very appaled and disgusted when other random players cheese me, or try to.
Funny thing is, I once found a proxy-hatch when I scouted for proxy pylons. So if he rolled Zerg, I wouldn't have seen it. MAGIC!
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Ex-random, now protoss, and I feel only situation where random hurts a lot is 4spawn maps in PvX. 9scout into 13gate can be huge disadvantage in pvp, and in all 4spawn maps you generally want to ffe in pvz - now you can't.
Zerg shouldn't have this problem. You can always 14pool 14gas in any matchup, you aren't that much behind anyway. While it may seem like random has this advantage, they very likely aren't as good in knowing the details of buildorders and such. Playing triple matchups is a pain.
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On January 20 2012 05:12 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 23:11 kyllinghest wrote:On January 19 2012 22:22 Squigly wrote:
1 build per MU deserves a loss? Ignoring that little bit of retardation, his first point is good. Im sorry we have a different opinion, but that doesnt in anyways make me retarded. I strongly believe that if you can't manage to mix up your builds as a terran vs random you don't deserve to win versus said random player who has to juggle way more builds. You dont HAVE to learn more builds. You choose to as your play R. You should not need to learn more than 1 build for BO1 format. Why2, why not 3? If 3 why not 4. You see my point. Is it literally you think T need a TvR specific build is safe. Playing TvR builds will always put you behind a R if they get the lucky race, and never ahead. Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid?
You don't have to learn a single build for all I care, that took me into masters. My point is that T can do all kinds of builds, and still not be behind, no matter what race the T is facing. You can go gas, you can 1rax fe, you can double gas. You can do everything as T, and you will never be behind after you scouted the randoms race, as long as you are comfortable playing different builds. If you are not comfortable playing these different ways of terran you don't deserve your win against the random, thats my view.
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i think you should take the chance, open normally.
I play random and haven't all-ined (unless i caught my opponent being extremely greedy)
I play an econ style every race every game. protoss 1 gate expo or Nexus first FFE, zerg 15 hatch, terran 1rax FE.
To be honest, i get a fair amount of aggressive all-ins from my opponents when i play random, i dont know if they think they can't open normally, might as well rush, like op was thinking with his 7RR or what, but ive seen many randoms that play macro games.
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If you think playing random takes no skill.... loool Just try rolling random for a day on ladder and cringe at your ladder points being taken by tasteless.
If you are losing to random it is because you are bad at scouting or your build is not safe anyways, not because random really gives people an absolute advantage.
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On January 20 2012 13:54 fighter2_40 wrote:
If you think playing random takes no skill.... loool Just try rolling random for a day on ladder and cringe at your ladder points being taken by tasteless.
If you are losing to random it is because you are bad at scouting or your build is not safe anyways, not because random really gives people an absolute advantage.
Nobody reasonably argued that Random takes no skill. You obviously have to learn 2 more races than the others, hence more matchups, more builds, etc. What some of us complained about is that it restricts your opponent's openings unfairly (as Protoss and a bit as Zerg too) on certain big maps. The "random always cheeses ololol" part is more of a cliché than a truth, really.
But fact is: you can't go FFE against random, whereas that would maybe have been your build of choice against Zerg. It's a really weird dynamic, because you claim that random knows all 3 races and stuff, without actually ever facing FFE in ZvP which is THE standard. 1 base openings in PvZ are very different and really require practice to know what you're weak to and when you can pressure, and for example you can't let him get away with a fast third as you would while doing an FFE.
All of this combined seriously puts the Random at a big advantage here, because he plays ZvP statistically 1 out of 9 times, but the Protoss actually practiced 0 time his 3 gate expand, 1 gate expand or 1 gate stargate play since he found out about FFE.
You could argue that he has to take the possibility of playing Random Zerg into account, but that's certainly not a 1/9 chance on ladder, so it's not really worth changing completely your style if you're not comfortable with that.
And I'm not talking for me here, I actually love gateway expands in PvZ even at master level. (What I have trouble with however is proxies and cannon rushes in PvP when you built at your ramp, those are hard to defend).
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On January 20 2012 13:09 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 05:12 Squigly wrote:On January 19 2012 23:11 kyllinghest wrote:On January 19 2012 22:22 Squigly wrote:
1 build per MU deserves a loss? Ignoring that little bit of retardation, his first point is good. Im sorry we have a different opinion, but that doesnt in anyways make me retarded. I strongly believe that if you can't manage to mix up your builds as a terran vs random you don't deserve to win versus said random player who has to juggle way more builds. You dont HAVE to learn more builds. You choose to as your play R. You should not need to learn more than 1 build for BO1 format. Why2, why not 3? If 3 why not 4. You see my point. Is it literally you think T need a TvR specific build is safe. Playing TvR builds will always put you behind a R if they get the lucky race, and never ahead. Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? You don't have to learn a single build for all I care, that took me into masters. My point is that T can do all kinds of builds, and still not be behind, no matter what race the T is facing. You can go gas, you can 1rax fe, you can double gas. You can do everything as T, and you will never be behind after you scouted the randoms race, as long as you are comfortable playing different builds. If you are not comfortable playing these different ways of terran you don't deserve your win against the random, thats my view.
Nice that you ignored that majority of my post :/
Also, thats just a lie. You seem to think T has a magical ability to never be behind depending on what opener they do. Yes, you can 1 rax FE in every MU. However goin double gas against a 1 gate expo from a R rolling P is kinda all in etc.
If you dont mind scouting and transitioning into a 1 base timing then yes, your flexible.
Again ill ask: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid?
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Northern Ireland25533 Posts
Exactly Squigly. I mean I have no problems playing PvR and they roll Terran, because my opener can be tailored based upon my scout. The positioning of my buildings won't be ideal, but I can still 1 gate FE which is my preferred opener.
PvP on the other hand is a ruined matchup in vRandom scenarios. I do win a fair few because some of the guys I play look weak playing as Toss, but on the other hand if their strongest/main race is Toss it's very difficult. I've lost many a 4gate war on Tal'Darim because they've opened 11 gate and I've opened 12 gate, the margins are really fine in the matchup.
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I don't play random, but for all who thinks, that race should be known on loading screen - what reason then will be playing random and not choosing race before the game? None really.
And as most of people wrote - just scout sooner and you are ok or do safe build. Playing against random gives us something fresh ... you need to think in game, not just do mindless build until xx:xx. Z is my race and it's how i play Z anyway, so against random is no difference.
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On January 20 2012 11:05 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 07:17 Vindicare605 wrote:On January 20 2012 06:24 eeizbee wrote:
You deserve the BM you get for abusing the random advantage. It's bad enough when you do some stupid all in that your opponent can't prepare an optimal defense for, but imo it's EVEN WORSE when you use the random advantage to do a greedy econ build because your opponent is trying to blind counter the myriad possible cheeses that many random players prefer.
they deserve more than the BM, unless random players get their race shown on the loading screen they are just talentless noobs that can't play a real game. they get a 3 minute tactical advantage on TDA, maybe a 1 minute or 2 minute advantage on smaller maps. an advantage like that, at the most fragile part in the game (the beginning), in a game as finely balanced as starcraft is a joke. and it isnt just a slight tactical advantage, it is a 100% tactical advantage. haha. As someone who plays all 3 races and can easily say that Protoss is by far the easiest race to play, I find the notion of you even attempting to call Random players talentless noobs to be laughable. What? The fact you're forced to scout and react at the start of the game makes it not a real game? The fact that you can't do a gimmicky predetermined build order and have to have a back up game plan makes it not a real game? Here's a hint. 1 gate expand, into fast robo/obs and stay active with your probe scout. You can wall off your nat with your second and third gates instead of a forge if they're zerg and if they're going to 6-7 pool you an early gate is actually a superior defensive build against that. If it's going to be roach ling, you'll be able to hold it with the help of the faster robotics facility. If it's terran? That's a standard opening anyway for a macro game, if it's a protoss? Cancel the nexus and drop 2 more gates. Just because you're terrible at reacting on the fly and you have to go by predetermined build orders doesn't mean it isn't a real game it just means you aren't a real SC2 player you're just a pretender. User was warned for this post You can't say which race is the easiest to play due to differences in mechanics and mindsets to play each race. Zerg is my worst race simply because you require mechanical restraint. And for someone like me who normally macroes on cues that DON'T include the resources in the top right gets screwed over when he's just constantly spamming 8sd every few seconds while controlling my army (I use 8 for all Hatcheries and CCs). As a result, I often get supply blocked (getting better at watching my supply now) and because of the fact that I like to be greedy and constantly make workers, I get caught by MANY VERY DUMB all ins. I'll die with 60+ Drones at the 10 minute mark. But as Terran, it's so much easier for me as I just go through my building hotkeys to make sure they're making something, and if I have idle SCVs, it more often than not means I need to make a Supply Depot. As Protoss, it's similar in that I just keep going 8eeee for Probes, and I can't really overmake either Probes or SCVs. Then I'll get Gateways (which are the hardest for me to keep up in macro with), which basically means I have a general timing/cycle to produce units to be safe. And I'm much more comfortable BUILDING Supply Buildings than a Supply UNIT that could've been a harvester or an offensive unit, so even if I don't have idle Probes, I'm more on top of my macro as Protoss. I also pay MUCH MORE ATTENTION to Protoss and Terran upgrades because they require a building to unlock the +2 and +3. And that building takes little time to make. Protoss is NOT by far the easiest to play. For YOU it may be, but for others it's not (most will probably say Terran since it's easy to be a mechanical zombie and end up with a ton of units because all you really need to adjust is what production buildings you have). Just because I think Zerg is the hardest doesn't necessarily mean it's the hardest race either. People who have a good cue for when to stop droning and when to make overlords will do MUCH better than I do (wouldn't hurt if overlords had better movement speed so you could actually scout a fucking Terran's base if they opened Hellions). Then there will be people who thinks Protoss is the hardest race. Not only might players have difficulty in the macro aspects of a race, but also the micro aspects. Since I normally play Terran now, I'm used to setting up a army spread, which helps a lot when having Roaches defend or getting into ZvZ ling battles. But for Protoss, you generally sit in a ball and use spells to control the fight (Force Fields, Psi Storms, Guardian Shield, Feedback). As Terran, you Stim small packs of units to pick off enemy units or harass expansions. And when using Tanks, you generally want to be preset in a defensive position and have the enemy come to you. To be caught in the middle of the map unsieged more often than not means an instant loss. A player who overcommits to being Seiged as Terran ends up being REALLY slow and applying almost no pressure, but a Terran who rushes in dies. A Protoss who can't accurately cast their spells dies in the midgame to a likely superior force of units. A Zerg who can't control his army properly looks like he's sending units in a line to die. Each race is meant to be played in a different way. Some people are naturally comfortable playing one style over another, which is why they play a race that other people may call them an idiot for playing.
What a big pile of non-sense :D
Your argument to why Zerg is hard to macro is that you don't have cues? Did you ever questioned what "good" marco is?
Thats why ppl say Toss is easy to marco at lower tiers: production cues and chrono boosts.
Toss has two mechanics of T and Z combined: They have a wave-like unit production and a cue-able worker production.
wave-like unit production helps a lot after using big chunks of units and it is way easier to determine how many production builings you need.
Cueing workers is easier yea, because you can cue 
" also pay MUCH MORE ATTENTION to Protoss and Terran upgrades because they require a building to unlock the +2 and +3. And that building takes little time to make." Wtf? So Zerg needs what to unlock +3? Right ... TWO buildings. Great argument you got there.
You can't "overmake" workers? Erm ... but you actually do know that every worker in the cue which is not canceled is build? And that cueing stuff will bind your money to the cue as long as you don't cancel. And the cueing doesn't make your macro look better cause you have less money?
Edit on the spellcaster part: the only thing which you mention is aim. To even compare stim to things like ff is not really viable. What about blink <-> stim? You blink all your stalkers or just a few to pick of stuff?
Forcefield <-> fungal <-> emp, what makes anything of that different? Nothing really, just aim.
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On January 20 2012 21:51 Pamposek wrote:
I don't play random, but for all who thinks, that race should be known on loading screen - what reason then will be playing random and not choosing race before the game? None really.
And as most of people wrote - just scout sooner and you are ok or do safe build. Playing against random gives us something fresh ... you need to think in game, not just do mindless build until xx:xx. Z is my race and it's how i play Z anyway, so against random is no difference.
The general argument for random to exist and not to be removed completely, is that people like to be able to play all 3 races and have it picked for them.
The non cheesy randoms generally say they dont play R for the automatic advantage they get, but for the fun of it. So loading screen race would solve it.
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On January 20 2012 22:42 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 21:51 Pamposek wrote:
I don't play random, but for all who thinks, that race should be known on loading screen - what reason then will be playing random and not choosing race before the game? None really.
And as most of people wrote - just scout sooner and you are ok or do safe build. Playing against random gives us something fresh ... you need to think in game, not just do mindless build until xx:xx. Z is my race and it's how i play Z anyway, so against random is no difference. The general argument for random to exist and not to be removed completely, is that people like to be able to play all 3 races and have it picked for them. The non cheesy randoms generally say they dont play R for the automatic advantage they get, but for the fun of it. So loading screen race would solve it.
So maybe we should also tell the player on which start position you will spawn.
And what about removing the fog of war?
And maybe be able to devote races you will matched against.
Guys ... really? Why is it so hard to accept that someone who takes a BIG disadvantage (playing races he is not the best at) that this someone is getting a SMALL advantage by not-knowing (of the enemy) as which race you spawned.
So many guys take ladder WAY too serious.
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On January 20 2012 23:38 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 22:42 Squigly wrote:On January 20 2012 21:51 Pamposek wrote:
I don't play random, but for all who thinks, that race should be known on loading screen - what reason then will be playing random and not choosing race before the game? None really.
And as most of people wrote - just scout sooner and you are ok or do safe build. Playing against random gives us something fresh ... you need to think in game, not just do mindless build until xx:xx. Z is my race and it's how i play Z anyway, so against random is no difference. The general argument for random to exist and not to be removed completely, is that people like to be able to play all 3 races and have it picked for them. The non cheesy randoms generally say they dont play R for the automatic advantage they get, but for the fun of it. So loading screen race would solve it. So maybe we should also tell the player on which start position you will spawn. And what about removing the fog of war? And maybe be able to devote races you will matched against. Guys ... really? Why is it so hard to accept that someone who takes a BIG disadvantage (playing races he is not the best at) that this someone is getting a SMALL advantage by not-knowing (of the enemy) as which race you spawned. So many guys take ladder WAY too serious.
To go in the complete opposite direction of your first argument, why not play with all buildings cloaked or something?
It's a completely ridiculous argument, in a fair game, it's not about the absolute information a player has, it's about the information he has COMPARED TO his opponent. To both players, at the start of the game, spawning locations are unknown and fog of war is activated, so it's fair. However, when you face a Random, he knows your race but you don't know his. That's different relative information, so it's unfair. Simple as that.
BUT...it's also unfair that you have to know more stuff about the game as a random player, in a way, but at least you chose to play with that disadvantage every single one of your ladder games, we didn't choose to be completely in the dark right at the loading screen.
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On January 20 2012 23:38 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 22:42 Squigly wrote:On January 20 2012 21:51 Pamposek wrote:
I don't play random, but for all who thinks, that race should be known on loading screen - what reason then will be playing random and not choosing race before the game? None really.
And as most of people wrote - just scout sooner and you are ok or do safe build. Playing against random gives us something fresh ... you need to think in game, not just do mindless build until xx:xx. Z is my race and it's how i play Z anyway, so against random is no difference. The general argument for random to exist and not to be removed completely, is that people like to be able to play all 3 races and have it picked for them. The non cheesy randoms generally say they dont play R for the automatic advantage they get, but for the fun of it. So loading screen race would solve it. So maybe we should also tell the player on which start position you will spawn. And what about removing the fog of war? And maybe be able to devote races you will matched against. Guys ... really? Why is it so hard to accept that someone who takes a BIG disadvantage (playing races he is not the best at) that this someone is getting a SMALL advantage by not-knowing (of the enemy) as which race you spawned. So many guys take ladder WAY too serious.
Now you're just spouting nonsense... neither player knows where the other spawned so there is no information advantage, unlike when one player is random and the other isn't.
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On January 20 2012 23:38 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 22:42 Squigly wrote:On January 20 2012 21:51 Pamposek wrote:
I don't play random, but for all who thinks, that race should be known on loading screen - what reason then will be playing random and not choosing race before the game? None really.
And as most of people wrote - just scout sooner and you are ok or do safe build. Playing against random gives us something fresh ... you need to think in game, not just do mindless build until xx:xx. Z is my race and it's how i play Z anyway, so against random is no difference. The general argument for random to exist and not to be removed completely, is that people like to be able to play all 3 races and have it picked for them. The non cheesy randoms generally say they dont play R for the automatic advantage they get, but for the fun of it. So loading screen race would solve it. So maybe we should also tell the player on which start position you will spawn. And what about removing the fog of war? And maybe be able to devote races you will matched against. Guys ... really? Why is it so hard to accept that someone who takes a BIG disadvantage (playing races he is not the best at) that this someone is getting a SMALL advantage by not-knowing (of the enemy) as which race you spawned. So many guys take ladder WAY too serious.
I feel everyone has already pointed out how absurd this comment is so i wont go into detail. I will address the point about them having a BIG disadvantage. Noone has yet to answer my question here:
Two people of equal skill with terran are playing a TvT. One got there by rolling T from R, the other from picking T. Even though there is equal skill (assume exactly equal) the R player will win . Is this really fair?
This seems to have gone off topic. As T just 1 rax expo vs R and hold the cheese. As P id suggest 3 gate expo, and as Z 14/14. Z has the hardest time as on small maps 1/3 your kinda fucked when they get T. On 2 player maps just scout super early.
I dont see a random rolling T losing if they proxy 2 rax on shak though if not scouted first. Just seems like auto win for the R 50/50, and probably win the other half.
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EPT
