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On January 23 2012 03:30 FridgeLogic wrote:It's really funny. One of the reasons for me to start playing random is that I was sick of all the cheese that I encountered on ladder from all kinds of players, randoms or racepickers regardless. Playing random, I rarely get cheesed - most people seem to be reluctant to cheese if they don't know which race they're up against. That aside, I would be ok if my race would be visible to my opponent, although this would mean having to learn how to deal with every kind of cheese in all the matchups. At least playing random reminds me that the grass usually isn't greener on the other side, concerning races 
Whenever I'm dicking around with Random I always let my opponent know which race I spawn as, it's on them to trust you or not. If you're ok with your race being visible to them at the start just type in which you spawned as 'gl hf i'm T' etc.
As to the thread as a whole, playing against Random is actually pretty annoying because they get the surprise advantage simply for picking random. I definitely play safer against random, scout on pylon (9) for sure, no nexus first, do those type of things and react to what you scout and it shouldn't be too big of a deal
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I use my 13th drone to check every proxy location and then take hatch 1st.
If protoss I take fast 3rd against nexus 1st or forge fast expand.
against terran I take macro hatch in my base and play safe against all possible drops and harasses with spines at front and lings inbase.
against zerg, I make lings without speed and tech straight to roaches and play defensively while teching to mutalisks as fast as the game allows me to.
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On January 23 2012 03:44 RabidSeagull wrote:As to the thread as a whole, playing against Random is actually pretty annoying because they get the surprise advantage simply for picking random. I definitely play safer against random, scout on pylon (9) for sure, no nexus first, do those type of things and react to what you scout and it shouldn't be too big of a deal
I wish I played more players like you on the ladder. Since switching to random i've faced more 1 base all-ins than when I chose my race. Heck, i won a game a few days ago because my opponent went 11/13 rax, then quit when he discovered I spawned terran. As for the surprise advantage, I really feel that it's mitigated by the fact that random players have to know all 9 matchups well enough to take advantage of it. Maybe I eek out a minor advantage with T or Z (my stronger races), but all it really buys my P matches is a little bit of leeway in my opening.
Ah well, I'll put up with hate and 1 base all ins if it means more delicious portraits.
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As protoss, I pylon scout after placing near the ramp and hope I find them before my gateway is finished, so that if they aren't zerg I can just put the core further back. I am unsure why people are arguing that it's greedy for a protoss to be upset about his initial building placement vs R (potential Z) because "it's just a little further for the probe to go and loss of mining time." That isn't at all why I'm upset about that pylon placement, I'm upset about the pylon placement because vs P and T it's a nightmare to have your buildings so exposed to initial stalker or bio pressure, in much the same way that 7rr's with overlords abuse the wall-in cyber core.
Sorry R's though, it's true that when we play you on the ladder it's nothing but cheese and 2base all-ins. I understand why, and I'm not necessarily mad about it, but it does force me to 4gate a lot - especially on Tal'Darim as mentioned earlier in the thread. If I'm not already planning on 4gate vs R and I scout a protoss last on Tal'Darim who obviously 10gated, I'm hosed. So you're getting k4g'd by default.
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On January 23 2012 02:47 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 11:16 kyllinghest wrote:On January 20 2012 20:56 Squigly wrote:On January 20 2012 13:09 kyllinghest wrote:
You don't have to learn a single build for all I care, that took me into masters. My point is that T can do all kinds of builds, and still not be behind, no matter what race the T is facing. You can go gas, you can 1rax fe, you can double gas. You can do everything as T, and you will never be behind after you scouted the randoms race, as long as you are comfortable playing different builds. If you are not comfortable playing these different ways of terran you don't deserve your win against the random, thats my view. Nice that you ignored that majority of my post :/ Also, thats just a lie. You seem to think T has a magical ability to never be behind depending on what opener they do. Yes, you can 1 rax FE in every MU. However goin double gas against a 1 gate expo from a R rolling P is kinda all in etc. If you dont mind scouting and transitioning into a 1 base timing then yes, your flexible. Again ill ask: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? Well, don't you think you can pull of the win if you double gas vs the 1 gate expoing protoss? Im no pro gamer, but I am a masters terran, and my experience is that all kinds of builds is viable in all T-matchups. Double gas before expo works in all matchups, but you have to do damage obviously. If you don't wanna go all in, just don't double gas. Thats how terran work, you're not behind before you bungle your attack/harrass. Also I have said at least three times in this thread that I support the idea of revealing your race on the loading screen, however I don't think you are ever in an uncomfortable situation as T versus R, unless you put yourself in that uncomfortable spot. Still not answering my simple question: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? Whats wrong with this logic.
In reply to your simple question: You are right, if skill is completely even, Random will win (not always ofc, but statistically). However: the MMR is determined taking into account this random advantage! i.e.: you will be (very slightly) better than the random player you face, with the random advantage to bridge this very slight skill gap. Meaning that on the ladder atleast, this advantage is compensated by the MMR.
Another issue: people seem to assume they will be better than a random player. This is NOT true.The random's MMR is averaged over 3 races, meaning his best race is probably better than you, while his worst race may be significantly worse (my terran is atricious).
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On January 23 2012 19:42 Puckvalan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:47 Squigly wrote:On January 21 2012 11:16 kyllinghest wrote:On January 20 2012 20:56 Squigly wrote:On January 20 2012 13:09 kyllinghest wrote:
You don't have to learn a single build for all I care, that took me into masters. My point is that T can do all kinds of builds, and still not be behind, no matter what race the T is facing. You can go gas, you can 1rax fe, you can double gas. You can do everything as T, and you will never be behind after you scouted the randoms race, as long as you are comfortable playing different builds. If you are not comfortable playing these different ways of terran you don't deserve your win against the random, thats my view. Nice that you ignored that majority of my post :/ Also, thats just a lie. You seem to think T has a magical ability to never be behind depending on what opener they do. Yes, you can 1 rax FE in every MU. However goin double gas against a 1 gate expo from a R rolling P is kinda all in etc. If you dont mind scouting and transitioning into a 1 base timing then yes, your flexible. Again ill ask: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? Well, don't you think you can pull of the win if you double gas vs the 1 gate expoing protoss? Im no pro gamer, but I am a masters terran, and my experience is that all kinds of builds is viable in all T-matchups. Double gas before expo works in all matchups, but you have to do damage obviously. If you don't wanna go all in, just don't double gas. Thats how terran work, you're not behind before you bungle your attack/harrass. Also I have said at least three times in this thread that I support the idea of revealing your race on the loading screen, however I don't think you are ever in an uncomfortable situation as T versus R, unless you put yourself in that uncomfortable spot. Still not answering my simple question: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? Whats wrong with this logic. In reply to your simple question: You are right, if skill is completely even, Random will win (not always ofc, but statistically). However: the MMR is determined taking into account this random advantage! i.e.: you will be (very slightly) better than the random player you face, with the random advantage to bridge this very slight skill gap. Meaning that on the ladder atleast, this advantage is compensated by the MMR. Another issue: people seem to assume they will be better than a random player. This is NOT true.The random's MMR is averaged over 3 races, meaning his best race is probably better than you, while his worst race may be significantly worse (my terran is atricious).
You are right. As a random, I win 95% of my P and Z games 30% of my T(note that the numbers might change as I haven't played for a while and it appears like my MMR dropped a lot).
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On January 23 2012 19:42 Puckvalan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 02:47 Squigly wrote:On January 21 2012 11:16 kyllinghest wrote:On January 20 2012 20:56 Squigly wrote:On January 20 2012 13:09 kyllinghest wrote:
You don't have to learn a single build for all I care, that took me into masters. My point is that T can do all kinds of builds, and still not be behind, no matter what race the T is facing. You can go gas, you can 1rax fe, you can double gas. You can do everything as T, and you will never be behind after you scouted the randoms race, as long as you are comfortable playing different builds. If you are not comfortable playing these different ways of terran you don't deserve your win against the random, thats my view. Nice that you ignored that majority of my post :/ Also, thats just a lie. You seem to think T has a magical ability to never be behind depending on what opener they do. Yes, you can 1 rax FE in every MU. However goin double gas against a 1 gate expo from a R rolling P is kinda all in etc. If you dont mind scouting and transitioning into a 1 base timing then yes, your flexible. Again ill ask: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? Well, don't you think you can pull of the win if you double gas vs the 1 gate expoing protoss? Im no pro gamer, but I am a masters terran, and my experience is that all kinds of builds is viable in all T-matchups. Double gas before expo works in all matchups, but you have to do damage obviously. If you don't wanna go all in, just don't double gas. Thats how terran work, you're not behind before you bungle your attack/harrass. Also I have said at least three times in this thread that I support the idea of revealing your race on the loading screen, however I don't think you are ever in an uncomfortable situation as T versus R, unless you put yourself in that uncomfortable spot. Still not answering my simple question: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? Whats wrong with this logic. In reply to your simple question: You are right, if skill is completely even, Random will win (not always ofc, but statistically). However: the MMR is determined taking into account this random advantage! i.e.: you will be (very slightly) better than the random player you face, with the random advantage to bridge this very slight skill gap. Meaning that on the ladder atleast, this advantage is compensated by the MMR. Another issue: people seem to assume they will be better than a random player. This is NOT true.The random's MMR is averaged over 3 races, meaning his best race is probably better than you, while his worst race may be significantly worse (my terran is atricious).
We assume that we'll be better than the random player because he's most of the time a cheeser, that's all there is to it.
If he's not, then you're probably right.
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I'm a silver league Zerg still trying to wrap my head against random players online. My main issue is ZvZ. Already my weakest matchup and I have come to understand a bit more build order based? If true, how am I supposed to defend the early onslaught of my opponent because ZvZ is so fast paced?
I have opened with pool before 15 hatch. When I play randoms is that not the safest / universal BO?
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On December 26 2012 14:03 Pucca wrote:
I'm a silver league Zerg still trying to wrap my head against random players online. My main issue is ZvZ. Already my weakest matchup and I have come to understand a bit more build order based? If true, how am I supposed to defend the early onslaught of my opponent because ZvZ is so fast paced?
I have opened with pool before 15 hatch. When I play randoms is that not the safest / universal BO?
14 pool 15 hatch is the safest eco build, obviosly the safest build would be 10 pool but that isnt really an eco build.
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On December 26 2012 14:12 X3GoldDot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 14:03 Pucca wrote:
I'm a silver league Zerg still trying to wrap my head against random players online. My main issue is ZvZ. Already my weakest matchup and I have come to understand a bit more build order based? If true, how am I supposed to defend the early onslaught of my opponent because ZvZ is so fast paced?
I have opened with pool before 15 hatch. When I play randoms is that not the safest / universal BO? 14 pool 15 hatch is the safest eco build, obviosly the safest build would be 10 pool but that isnt really an eco build.
How bad of position would I be in if I did that every random?
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On December 26 2012 14:21 Pucca wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 14:12 X3GoldDot wrote:On December 26 2012 14:03 Pucca wrote:
I'm a silver league Zerg still trying to wrap my head against random players online. My main issue is ZvZ. Already my weakest matchup and I have come to understand a bit more build order based? If true, how am I supposed to defend the early onslaught of my opponent because ZvZ is so fast paced?
I have opened with pool before 15 hatch. When I play randoms is that not the safest / universal BO? 14 pool 15 hatch is the safest eco build, obviosly the safest build would be 10 pool but that isnt really an eco build. How bad of position would I be in if I did that every random?
You'd be fine vs protoss and most zergs, however versus terran it is not the most optimal opener
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I just leave vs random, or proxy 2 rax. No point really.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On December 26 2012 14:24 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 14:12 X3GoldDot wrote:On December 26 2012 14:03 Pucca wrote:
I'm a silver league Zerg still trying to wrap my head against random players online. My main issue is ZvZ. Already my weakest matchup and I have come to understand a bit more build order based? If true, how am I supposed to defend the early onslaught of my opponent because ZvZ is so fast paced?
I have opened with pool before 15 hatch. When I play randoms is that not the safest / universal BO? 14 pool 15 hatch is the safest eco build, obviosly the safest build would be 10 pool but that isnt really an eco build. Wouldn't the safest eco build be a Speedling Expand..?
Speedling expand is on the wrong side of a build order disadvantage against a correctly executed FFE or various terran plays, and will rarely if ever get you ahead to make up for that.
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Random masters player here:
if your zerg just 14 pool. It work against every race.
If your terran just rax expand or scout after depot.
If your toss scout after pylon. It can even be low ground on some maps like ohana. In base forge works for FFE.
Also, at least speaking for myself I always tell the opponent my race if they ask in the beginning of the game.
As for people saying that they don't want to do any of these builds because they feel at a disadvantage economically, just deal with it. These are not greedy builds, they are just standard safe. You don't lose the game because you open 14 pool instead of 15 hatch or open barracks instead of cc first or have to make your forge in the main and expand a little more carefully.
JUST DEAL WITH IT. if you lose it's because you actually are a worse player. Many pros open with these builds that i've mentioned even when they know the opponents race because it's just the safest way to play and they feel confident in their abilities.
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On December 26 2012 14:33 decado90 wrote:
I just leave vs random, or proxy 2 rax. No point really.
Asking for their race works more often then not if your not a dick about it. Last couple of months I can only think 2-3 times someone was quite or just bm'ed me at the question and 1 that lied, and at least 10 randoms that told me what they were.
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Masters zerg here
A 15 pool 15/16 hatch is a safe build vs. all three races no matter what they are doing. I normally scout on 13 as well unless I see another overlord or scouting worker with my overlord which tell me that I don't have to. Against terran I usually scout anyway so I would just keep going.
I did find while I was ranking up that any random player diamond and below just cheesed me. However you should just consider it an opportunity to test how sound your builds are against stuff like that. Don't try to cheese back ^.^
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Depends on my mood. I sometimes do try to ask for their race hoping for a standard game, but unfortunately it usually doesnt work. Most of the time I just proxy 2 rax them though.
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I always kindly ask what race they are and most of them will generally tell me, solving the entire issue.
Otherwise I'll simply send an early SCV scout and keep a closer eye on it than usual in case it comes across the enemy scouting worker.
Worst case scenario, it's a 4 player map and I don't spot him/her until I get to the last spawn position.
In that case I usually go for the most versatile/adaptable build, something around a 1-1-1.
One option is that you specifically pick a build for when going up against random players.
A build that would be equally effective against all three races without being extremely risks.
As Terran, any 2rax or 1-1-1 build could probably fill this role.
Should you scout the opponent early enough or he/she tells you his/her race, you can always adjust.
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If you're playing vs Random you have to just consider what you'd do against any of the 3 races.
Against Toss, 14/14 is safe and standard. Against Zerg 14/14 also works. So as Zerg the only time Random screws you up is when they are Terran, because you have to 14/14 when you'd otherwise go Hatch first. Use the earlier pool to apply some pressure early and throw off the Random player. It shouldn't be too bad.
14/14 should hold most cheese if you scout it.
As Protoss, I hate playing vs. Random when they spawn Zerg, because I can't FFE. So now I just do an aggressive gate expand and make do. vP and vT I'm fine.
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EPT
