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On December 26 2012 14:22 Loire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 14:21 Pucca wrote:On December 26 2012 14:12 X3GoldDot wrote:On December 26 2012 14:03 Pucca wrote:
I'm a silver league Zerg still trying to wrap my head against random players online. My main issue is ZvZ. Already my weakest matchup and I have come to understand a bit more build order based? If true, how am I supposed to defend the early onslaught of my opponent because ZvZ is so fast paced?
I have opened with pool before 15 hatch. When I play randoms is that not the safest / universal BO? 14 pool 15 hatch is the safest eco build, obviosly the safest build would be 10 pool but that isnt really an eco build. How bad of position would I be in if I did that every random? You'd be fine vs protoss and most zergs, however versus terran it is not the most optimal opener
I tend to disagree, while its not the most 'optimal' opener economic wise, many many top zerg players like to open 10 pool vs terran (especially life). and if they are walled out of the terran base they still do quite well with the build, so while its not 'optimal' its still solid and a perfectly fine way to play.
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I llike playing random at the moment because I can find out some timings of other races. I have never been good at following builds that people write down, I hated school work so hate studying builds too.Which is why I am only plat for 2 years, but I am learning a lot. I play zerg in WOL, and every protoss forge FE's me, I am so bored of that matchup now, the same thing every time. So when i play random in HOTS beta and get a zvp, the protoss cant risk forgeFEing so I get to play a different game for a change. Protoss is my worst race so I am atleast learning how to play them a bit and finding the timings out for some standard play.
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Playing against random as protoss is just the worst thing lol, really happy there's not many random players once you get out of platinum.
I used to open with a 13 gate and if they were zerg id just leave the game haha. But now I just scout on 9 or earlier on large 4 player maps and hold out on making my first gate or forge until i see what they are. I dont understand why anyone would want to play random or why its even an option all it seems to do is make the game worse for everyone trying to take it half seriously.
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how do people find this a problem?
Zerg: 14 pool 16 hatch while scouting
Protoss: gate-gas-core while scouting
Terran 1 rax FE while scouting
I feel like the only people who suck vs random just blindly copy their build and have no idea how to adapt if the game plays out differently. Playing vs a random player is a huge advantage.
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On December 26 2012 21:06 m0nt wrote:
Playing against random as protoss is just the worst thing lol, really happy there's not many random players once you get out of platinum.
I used to open with a 13 gate and if they were zerg id just leave the game haha. But now I just scout on 9 or earlier on large 4 player maps and hold out on making my first gate or forge until i see what they are. I dont understand why anyone would want to play random or why its even an option all it seems to do is make the game worse for everyone trying to take it half seriously.
Random should ofcouse be an option but the race should be displayed at the loading screen in my oppinion. That way you can still get to play random but with no "unfair" advantage.
On December 26 2012 21:15 Daitro wrote:
how do people find this a problem?
Zerg: 14 pool 16 hatch while scouting
Protoss: gate-gas-core while scouting
Terran 1 rax FE while scouting
I feel like the only people who suck vs random just blindly copy their build and have no idea how to adapt if the game plays out differently. Playing vs a random player is a huge advantage.
gate-gas-core vs zerg can put you in a lot of trouble.
The reason it works in PvZ is because zergs assume you'll go Nexus first into forge or FFE.
If a Zerg knows you'd do a gate expand, there are so many ways they can delay your expansion. Around 20 or so slow lings will force you to go 3 gate exp or all in. Sure they lose some early economy but can quickly get atleast even. If you tried to 1 gate exp and failed you are quite far behind. If you did 3 gate exp or 2 gate exp you will end up even but then you are in same trouble you were in 1,5 years ago when doing gate expansions.
PvR and R turns out to be Z, you bascially start with a disadvantage and just have to pray your opponent makes lots of misstakes.
Most randomers I play try to play a game that would resemble a "normal" game though. That is, they play without abusing their advantage in knowledge too much and thats another reason why gate exps tend to work.
It is up to your opponent if the game is just a huge waste of time or an actual game though.
Could be a non-issue if the randomers race was just shown at the loading screen.
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As Zerg, I 10 scout and get up to 15 supply, which is coincidentally exactly the time when you also hit 200 minerals and arrive at the opponents base, seeing what he's doing and what race he is.
From there, you can obviously plant down the 15 hatch or the 15pool.
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A lot of top Protoss players go for gate-gas-core openings (naniwa and parting come to mind), if you know what you're doing you'll end up in at least an even spot. I've no idea what you're talking with 20 slow lings delaying your expo, just sim city and you're fine... go watch some NaNiwa games.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
I'd support a campaign for seeing your random opponent's race. It's too easy to abuse in some matchups. PvZ for example, zerg gets a free hatch first and thus an advantage. Why? Because P has to gateway wall off the main. It just seems silly to me. If a top tier zerg like DRG, Life or Leenock played random and spawned zerg, they'd win every single game because of the advantage they start with.
Also I think it kinda misses the point of playing random... playing random should simply be a shuffle. The advantage of knowing your opponent's race and them not knowing yours should not be in the game. Random should imo be a fun option for people who just want to play every race. I always always always tell people my race at the start when I random because I want the game to be fair from the very beginning. I really don't enjoy it otherwise and I really don't enjoy scouting zerg in the last position on a 4 player map and have 6 lings show up at my base because my opponent was random and gambled, knowing that I wouldn't even know their race. It's just stupid and happens surprisingly often.
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I don't think you understand how hard it is to successfully play random at whatever league you're playing them at
For your position in your league you need to be consistently good at 2 matchups these people playing random need to
Be consistently good at at least 6 match ups to maintain their league position the trade off for them knowing so much is that their race is hidden until you bother to scout it
What do I do? I just play safe as a Z go 14/14 if I end up behind? Oh well I'm not at the level where play is perfect so it's a chance for me to learn to look for these opening to pull myself back into the game
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
As a Terran I have never had a problem with randoms, I just 1 tax fe and play the game as usual.
I always ask what race they were, if they don't reply I just think whatever and play on.
To be honest it's only 1 game and any point loss won't effect you too much, just accept the other player treasures their points and move on.
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On December 26 2012 23:16 Denzil wrote:
I don't think you understand how hard it is to successfully play random at whatever league you're playing them at
For your position in your league you need to be consistently good at 2 matchups these people playing random need to
Be consistently good at at least 6 match ups to maintain their league position the trade off for them knowing so much is that their race is hidden until you bother to scout it
What do I do? I just play safe as a Z go 14/14 if I end up behind? Oh well I'm not at the level where play is perfect so it's a chance for me to learn to look for these opening to pull myself back into the game
As a zerg I usually open 15 hatch against random, as going a 15 hatch ZvP is only really a problem when protoss is scouting, in which case you would see the probe and know the race. Otherwise I would recommend a 14p/16h build
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I can definitely appreciate how playing vs Random isn't too P friendly but I suppose they could practice their all in's? I don't know but the variety provided by random players is definitely welcomed.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On December 27 2012 00:42 DKR wrote:
I can definitely appreciate how playing vs Random isn't too P friendly but I suppose they could practice their all in's? I don't know but the variety provided by random players is definitely welcomed.
What does PvR have to do with all ins?
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On December 27 2012 00:46 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 00:42 DKR wrote:
I can definitely appreciate how playing vs Random isn't too P friendly but I suppose they could practice their all in's? I don't know but the variety provided by random players is definitely welcomed. What does PvR have to do with all ins?
I was saying that the main worries seem to be from protoss players worried about being behind if they get a Zerg player. They could mitigate the worry of this by not attempting to play a macro game.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On December 27 2012 00:51 DKR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 00:46 DarkLordOlli wrote:On December 27 2012 00:42 DKR wrote:
I can definitely appreciate how playing vs Random isn't too P friendly but I suppose they could practice their all in's? I don't know but the variety provided by random players is definitely welcomed. What does PvR have to do with all ins? I was saying that the main worries seem to be from protoss players worried about being behind if they get a Zerg player. They could mitigate the worry of this by not attempting to play a macro game.
Zerg gets a free hatch first, you can't punish that with a gate in the main. You can slightly pressure with zealot + stalker but the fastest attack you can do is a 4gate which zerg will be super ready for by the time it hits.
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On December 26 2012 23:16 Denzil wrote:
I don't think you understand how hard it is to successfully play random at whatever league you're playing them at
For your position in your league you need to be consistently good at 2 matchups these people playing random need to
Be consistently good at at least 6 match ups to maintain their league position the trade off for them knowing so much is that their race is hidden until you bother to scout it
What do I do? I just play safe as a Z go 14/14 if I end up behind? Oh well I'm not at the level where play is perfect so it's a chance for me to learn to look for these opening to pull myself back into the game
Posts like this do not take into account the mmr system. If you are worth, say, topmaster in all matchup, you will be playing against topmaster Z, P or T who should not be better than you at the match up. Let's say if u play RvZ and end up TvZ, there is no reason to believe that the z is better at zvt than you at tvz. So it makes no sens to "counterbalance" it with an advantage like the fact that you know his race and he does not know ur. Most people do not drone scout in zvt and in topmaster it starts to make a difference when you lose those 100 minerals early game. If he scout you going 1 rax fe, he's behind where he would be if he knew your race from the beggining and didnt drone scout.
So, yes, it's an unfair advantage. If you want to play random and learn starcraft the hard way, up to you. But it should'nt mean you get an advantage against people that didnt choose to play vs random. + there is the fact that for protoss, for instance, it mess their build entirely. To know where to position their first pylon, they would have to scout before they place it... If you think it makes any sens in a competitive game where every little bit matter that builds are messed up so hard, I dont know what to add.
That's the reason why random is not allowed in tournament.
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On December 27 2012 00:42 DKR wrote:
I can definitely appreciate how playing vs Random isn't too P friendly but I suppose they could practice their all in's? I don't know but the variety provided by random players is definitely welcomed.
I cant see a master Z losing even 1% of the time to a 4 gate when it will be super obvious there is no nexus (hello overlord that can scout natural on every map). It actually means protoss auto lose to random zergs or have to do super inneficient builds like gate gas cyber into expo.
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On December 27 2012 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 00:51 DKR wrote:On December 27 2012 00:46 DarkLordOlli wrote:On December 27 2012 00:42 DKR wrote:
I can definitely appreciate how playing vs Random isn't too P friendly but I suppose they could practice their all in's? I don't know but the variety provided by random players is definitely welcomed. What does PvR have to do with all ins? I was saying that the main worries seem to be from protoss players worried about being behind if they get a Zerg player. They could mitigate the worry of this by not attempting to play a macro game. Zerg gets a free hatch first, you can't punish that with a gate in the main. You can slightly pressure with zealot + stalker but the fastest attack you can do is a 4gate which zerg will be super ready for by the time it hits.
There are plenty of directions you can go which have a similar 2 gas 1gate/core opening. You'll see which race you're playing before this point and can adjust dependent upon the race.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On December 27 2012 01:51 DKR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:On December 27 2012 00:51 DKR wrote:On December 27 2012 00:46 DarkLordOlli wrote:On December 27 2012 00:42 DKR wrote:
I can definitely appreciate how playing vs Random isn't too P friendly but I suppose they could practice their all in's? I don't know but the variety provided by random players is definitely welcomed. What does PvR have to do with all ins? I was saying that the main worries seem to be from protoss players worried about being behind if they get a Zerg player. They could mitigate the worry of this by not attempting to play a macro game. Zerg gets a free hatch first, you can't punish that with a gate in the main. You can slightly pressure with zealot + stalker but the fastest attack you can do is a 4gate which zerg will be super ready for by the time it hits. There are plenty of directions you can go which have a similar 2 gas 1gate/core opening. You'll see which race you're playing before this point and can adjust dependent upon the race.
Sure but all of them leave you behind vs a hatch first zerg.
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On December 27 2012 02:06 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 01:51 DKR wrote:On December 27 2012 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:On December 27 2012 00:51 DKR wrote:On December 27 2012 00:46 DarkLordOlli wrote:On December 27 2012 00:42 DKR wrote:
I can definitely appreciate how playing vs Random isn't too P friendly but I suppose they could practice their all in's? I don't know but the variety provided by random players is definitely welcomed. What does PvR have to do with all ins? I was saying that the main worries seem to be from protoss players worried about being behind if they get a Zerg player. They could mitigate the worry of this by not attempting to play a macro game. Zerg gets a free hatch first, you can't punish that with a gate in the main. You can slightly pressure with zealot + stalker but the fastest attack you can do is a 4gate which zerg will be super ready for by the time it hits. There are plenty of directions you can go which have a similar 2 gas 1gate/core opening. You'll see which race you're playing before this point and can adjust dependent upon the race. Sure but all of them leave you behind vs a hatch first zerg.
Personally I feel like they provide P with ample opportunity to punish that kind of greed, but I guess we'll agree to disagree.
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EPT
