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Magus.421
France159 Posts
I dont see a random rolling T losing if they proxy 2 rax on shak though if not scouted first. Just seems like auto win for the R 50/50, and probably win the other half. That's the main problem and many random players just abuse of this. That's why i always cheese / all-in against random players. It's bad for "fair random players", but i can't guess sorry :D | ||
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copacetic
56 Posts
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Mercy13
United States718 Posts
On January 21 2012 03:36 copacetic wrote: ok you guys keep ignoring the easiest solution to all your rage (scouting early) im sure raging out instead of scouting early will help you win vs Random players. And that helps not at all on large 4 player maps, and even when you find them you will be behind ~ 100 min or so from sending such an early scout. That's a big deal in the early game, especially for the mirror matchups. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
build order loss? oh well, no biggie. move on to next game. if i really dont want to loss, i 14pool. (holding early pool is no biggie with drones) wall as terran and protoss. the build is standard up to the scouting point. (i wall only against zerg but wall just in case random is zerg. i'll worry about that first then worry about potential loss of buildings from later pressure) early scout doesn't cause win/loss due to less minerals. and over all, non-random naturally has the advantage due to match up experience. though i must say, one race may be their weakest while another is their best. if the gap is big enough, randomer's strong race can roll over their opponent of same level because the mmr is dragged by their weak race. i think people are making vs random a bigger problem than it actually is :/ getting cheesed? i dont think race matters. what matters is how you react when you see it. from my experience though, rvr is a rare occurrence. | ||
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flyingbangus
United States121 Posts
I do see how it *can* be annoying as protoss going against random when it comes to the first pylon's placement. | ||
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Kryptonite333
42 Posts
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TheToaster
United States280 Posts
Below Platinum, I would consider any random player a cheeser or someone who just wants to go "fun" builds. This means anything like cloaked Banshees, Baneling busts, mass Marines with 7 Rax, or anything of that nature. Not necessarily cheese, but still builds that never last past the 10 minute mark. I would suggest playing defensive in these circumstances and hold off anything they throw at you. Because normally, the random players in these leagues probably have no idea what they are actually doing. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 21 2012 03:36 copacetic wrote: ok you guys keep ignoring the easiest solution to all your rage (scouting early) im sure raging out instead of scouting early will help you win vs Random players. If I were to scout before 9 pylon, might as well proxy some shit in the random's base. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On January 20 2012 20:56 Squigly wrote: Nice that you ignored that majority of my post :/ Also, thats just a lie. You seem to think T has a magical ability to never be behind depending on what opener they do. Yes, you can 1 rax FE in every MU. However goin double gas against a 1 gate expo from a R rolling P is kinda all in etc. If you dont mind scouting and transitioning into a 1 base timing then yes, your flexible. Again ill ask: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? Well, don't you think you can pull of the win if you double gas vs the 1 gate expoing protoss? Im no pro gamer, but I am a masters terran, and my experience is that all kinds of builds is viable in all T-matchups. Double gas before expo works in all matchups, but you have to do damage obviously. If you don't wanna go all in, just don't double gas. Thats how terran work, you're not behind before you bungle your attack/harrass. Also I have said at least three times in this thread that I support the idea of revealing your race on the loading screen, however I don't think you are ever in an uncomfortable situation as T versus R, unless you put yourself in that uncomfortable spot. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27340 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On January 18 2012 21:02 jeeneeus wrote: What really annoys me about this argument is how silly and selfish it is. So you lose like 5 minerals. If you're scouting after pylon, which you should, you should most likely find out what race he is, and if not zerg you can build the other buildings behind. You'll eventually need a pylon near the ramp for emergency warp ins so that's not a big deal. Also yes it's kind of annoying to not be able to FFE if you're against zerg, but I honestly don't think 1 gate expand/3 gate expand isn't too bad compared to FFE (The zerg can not take a fast third against 1 gate or 3 gate). You know what the random player has to deal with? Learning triple the amount of races and match ups. Do you have any idea how much more difficult it is to learn everything there is to know about all the races and match ups? It's not like the match ups are similar enough that things like build order and timings are the same. You know how different pvz, pvp, and pvt feel? Now try adding six more different things to that. But I'm sorry random inconveniences you into losing some mining time. The problem is gateway expand is not competitive against Zerg, and on some maps it's not even a viable opening. What do you do as Protoss against Random on TDA? You guess their race and lose if you guess wrong, because there's no ramp to defend with a gateway expand. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16125 Posts
On January 21 2012 11:55 Xequecal wrote: The problem is gateway expand is not competitive against Zerg, and on some maps it's not even a viable opening. What do you do as Protoss against Random on TDA? You guess their race and lose if you guess wrong, because there's no ramp to defend with a gateway expand. Pretty sure I've seen gateway expands dominate grandmaster pvz's and GSL pvz's before without being all ins. It's a completely viable opener. FFE is not the only way to play PvZ even if it's the most popular. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On January 21 2012 12:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Pretty sure I've seen gateway expands dominate grandmaster pvz's and GSL pvz's before without being all ins. It's a completely viable opener. FFE is not the only way to play PvZ even if it's the most popular. Please share with me the GSL PvZ's with gateway openings on TDA (honest request, I don't remember any :D). | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On January 21 2012 12:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Pretty sure I've seen gateway expands dominate grandmaster pvz's and GSL pvz's before without being all ins. It's a completely viable opener. FFE is not the only way to play PvZ even if it's the most popular. Gateway expand is what you do when you have to, when the map is hostile to FFE. It puts you significantly behind against Zerg. Also on TDA there is no ramp. Gateway expanding against Zerg on this map is suicide. When I get Random on TDA I just 15 nexus, if opponent is Protoss I'm dead but it's good against Terran and Zerg. There's no better way to do it, if you do a gate opening against Zerg on this map you just outright lose. | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On January 18 2012 20:30 EndOfLine wrote: 9 Drone scout - then play normally. Do this. If you don't scout that he is Terran before 14 supply, go 14/14 then expand on 20. Your standard speedling expand that you use in ZvP. That's just me. I nearly always 14/14 vs P and Z, and hatch first vs. T. You don't have to. Early scout is important. Random players are much more likely to cheese because the have the advantage hiding their race for a while. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16125 Posts
On January 21 2012 13:11 ZenithM wrote: Please share with me the GSL PvZ's with gateway openings on TDA (honest request, I don't remember any :D). TDA is a bit of an anamoly of a map for Protoss, but I have seen Gateway expands work on it, although they typically involve some kind of heavy timing attack. If the only argument here for Protoss is TDA, (which if I scan this thread every Protoss argument here against Randoms specifically involves TDA) then I think the problem here isn't with the Randoms it's with the map. I know at least 5 different Protoss players that have TDA vetoed because of PvZ and PvP on it, if Protoss was my main race I'd have it vetoed also. Gateway expand is what you do when you have to, when the map is hostile to FFE. It puts you significantly behind against Zerg. Also on TDA there is no ramp. Gateway expanding against Zerg on this map is suicide. The exact same argument can be made here involving Hellion expands for Terran and it's also not true. The fact is, FFE is the most popular way to play on TDA but the thing is every Zerg already knows that and oftentimes will play off of that knowledge just like they do with Hellion expands. When I play Zerg on TDA, against Protoss I feel completely encouraged to play extra greedy because pressure from the Protoss player is almost non-existant in the opening minutes. What that means for you the Protoss player is that a gateway expand can completely throw a zerg off their game on this map because they are so comfortable playing against FFE's on that map because that's all they ever face. Honestly, I think it might just be the fact that I play random, but I do not share the view that matchups are balanced around 1-2 specific openers. I think that's a player comfort thing rather than a product of actual game balance. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On January 21 2012 11:16 kyllinghest wrote: Well, don't you think you can pull of the win if you double gas vs the 1 gate expoing protoss? Im no pro gamer, but I am a masters terran, and my experience is that all kinds of builds is viable in all T-matchups. Double gas before expo works in all matchups, but you have to do damage obviously. If you don't wanna go all in, just don't double gas. Thats how terran work, you're not behind before you bungle your attack/harrass. Also I have said at least three times in this thread that I support the idea of revealing your race on the loading screen, however I don't think you are ever in an uncomfortable situation as T versus R, unless you put yourself in that uncomfortable spot. Still not answering my simple question: Playing R should not give you an automatic advantage. That way if you have completely even skill in a mirror, the R will win, which you have to admit is stupid? Whats wrong with this logic. | ||
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ETisME
12866 Posts
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FridgeLogic
Austria19 Posts
Playing random, I rarely get cheesed - most people seem to be reluctant to cheese if they don't know which race they're up against. That aside, I would be ok if my race would be visible to my opponent, although this would mean having to learn how to deal with every kind of cheese in all the matchups. At least playing random reminds me that the grass usually isn't greener on the other side, concerning races  | ||
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Geiko
France2034 Posts
I'm not going to learn anything playing against random because I won't get to play any of my standard openings so I might as well just cheese. Similarly, I don't get the point of playing random, no one is going to play standard against you, so you're really not learning any of the matchups. If you want to play all three races, do it like day[9] for example, by picking a race at random before clicking start. If you're in to gaining ladder points and just practise 1 cheese/all-in build with each race (as most randoms do), then taking random is fine I guess, just don't expect good games from your opponents. | ||
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