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On December 27 2012 10:38 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 08:00 fire_brand wrote:
I play random. It's ironic that everyone in the community has this opinion. You play a random maybe 10% of the time. And if you're in diamond and above they'll probably be cheesing about 25% of the time. So every 40 games you'll get cheesed by a random. If you take this same occurrence and put it up against the other races you face you're probably going to come up against similar numbers.
I've played random since the beta, and have never cheesed. I have well over 2000 1v1 games played, as random. I have discovered in my years of laddering that most random players, even if they're cheesers, are the most manner players on the ladder. If you beat their cheese they gg and leave the game. When the same happens against any other race cheesing me they rage and go off against the injustices of me playing random.
I would say nowadays, I get cheesed more by Toss and Zergs then any other race. Every other game is a roach bane all in, or a baneling bust, 6 pool, 4 gate, 8 gate, or sentry immortal all in. Random players are probably not going to be relying on any mid game cheese if they don't cheese you in the first 5 minutes. And if they do, then it should be a free win that you can take to the bank.
If anything you should be reveling in your chance to play a game against a random player. Of the 30 games you play every day most are probably infestor broodlord, or some sort of mid game timing attack all in. Random players don't do that, either because of lack of experience or lack of interest. If they have a funky opening, then good. You may end up playing a game different than the last 50 games you played on the ladder. It will take you outside of your comfort game and make you a better player. Take it as an opportunity and stop blaming random players for enjoying the game.
There are numerous safe openings against random that you can play. With the new maps you can even play greedy and beat most cheese. And next time try asking them what race they are. They'll probably tell you.
Next time you see that little planet beside their name resist the urge to succumb to the rage rising within you and take a positive perspective on the game. It'll make playing sc2 more fun. This post needd more love. Fine argument, well made.
It's a well written, logical post in a thread that's an excuse for people to qq about how it's not their fault when they lose. So, while it does deserve more love, it will just be ignored by most people. 
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On December 27 2012 04:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
I either just 6 pool or quit vs random.
The reason is that by playing random they are really screwing up that game. I want to play a game where I am able to practice and play standard and by playing random we are basically playing a pointless game where I would have to stay incredibly defensive and wait for their all in. If they really did want to play all three races they would just switch between the three instead of using the advantage they have to cheese.
Go find some practice partners then. If you're looking to practice against a huge spectrum of strategies thrown randomly at you from widely varying levels of skill, then ladder is pretty great -- otherwise, it has no obligation to conform to anyone's practice requirements. Why do you even care what their intention on the ladder is? They're playing ladder to compete for whatever reason and you're trying to rationalize it and put it into a perspective which marginalizes the player and puts your holier than thou ladder practice upon its golden pedestal.
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I play random exclusively and never cheese; however I get cheesed quite frequently. It seems 50% of zergs will try to 7rr if I random terran... Also in most zvzs I get 6 pooled + spinecrawler/drones. :/ Can be hard to stop that...!
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When I random:
ZvZ: 9 pool
ZvT: Try to get to ling-infestor, then BLs
ZvP: Roaches are fun.
PvP: 4 gate
PvZ: Sentry/Immortal all-in
PvT: Something that involved getting AoE
TvZ: Bio or mech, depending on what I scout and feel.
TvP: 2 Rax poke or Bomber Style
TvT: Boxer-style Reaper/Hellion or Thorzain.
The above is when I random in Diamond.
When facing a random as Terran, I just do a 1 rax FE. I subsequently lose to Protoss on Cloud Kingdom and Antiga because of blink stalkers, but it's a small price to pay for being behind. Just put everything into statistics and then you see everything in perspective, rather than viewing a single encounter as being defining of random players.
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On December 27 2012 09:25 Slithe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 09:10 TSORG wrote:there are no rdm pro players because no serious tournament should and would accept such an advantage at pro lvl. there is merit to the idea that playing requires more knowledge (not skill) of the game, having random is definitely an option that should be kept in the game. imo fairest solution is to make the race visible in the loading screen. that being said its prolly not a big problem at diamond/master lvl, but at the lower lvls it is imo, unit control and macro being so much worse playing random (cheeses) gives such a huge advantage. and i suppose it will give a big advantage at pro lvl, but im not an expert on that matter. i always ask if someone plays rdm and i consider it a bit bm if ppl dont say because imo rdm is there for your own excitement/improvement/etc and should not affect others. i did once have someone lie to me though, so you cant always trust them. someone already said it before, i just think well whatever, some people are just so sad for points they will lie about something so petty and go on. its not the worst thing in the world and for those who play rdm and tell their races, more respect to them. The reason why there are no pro players who play random is because it is too difficult to practice for three races at once. TLO tried it for a while, and gave up on it. It has nothing to do with tournaments disallowing random.
i suppose you are right, it would make practicing for boX rather hard if not impossible. hadnt considered that.
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On December 27 2012 10:42 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 09:10 TSORG wrote:there are no rdm pro players because no serious tournament should and would accept such an advantage at pro lvl. there is merit to the idea that playing requires more knowledge (not skill) of the game, having random is definitely an option that should be kept in the game. imo fairest solution is to make the race visible in the loading screen. that being said its prolly not a big problem at diamond/master lvl, but at the lower lvls it is imo, unit control and macro being so much worse playing random (cheeses) gives such a huge advantage. and i suppose it will give a big advantage at pro lvl, but im not an expert on that matter. i always ask if someone plays rdm and i consider it a bit bm if ppl dont say because imo rdm is there for your own excitement/improvement/etc and should not affect others. i did once have someone lie to me though, so you cant always trust them. someone already said it before, i just think well whatever, some people are just so sad for points they will lie about something so petty and go on. its not the worst thing in the world and for those who play rdm and tell their races, more respect to them. Every single pro tournament allows random. Such a baseless statement. If it was such an advantage, more people would clearly use it. To say its BM is utterly retarded. You going to cry if I don't tell you my position? Peoples dislike because they "can't get better and practice" is just fucking stupid. Then quit the damned individual game if your true motivation is solely practice. It'll be like two minutes tops wasted out of your time once every 50 games. Since its part of the game, why not take the time to practice vs Random, considering its in the game? Clearly you're not trying to become pro. Amazes me people pay $30-60 for a game and don't want to play all three races. The incessant whining is hilarious, people can bitch about such trivial things.
where did i say anything about practice? blizzard takes pride in saying the game is fair and balanced on all difficulties/skill levels when it obviously isnt and rdm is part of that. you can say that it just means you are not good enough if you dont know how to play vs rdm but seriously what meaning has such a statement when you talk about b/s/g? and maybe even p and d.
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On December 27 2012 06:04 Salivanth wrote:
Actually, they aren't, because you haven't extended your theory enough. Your idea is that their MMR is the same as yours despite the handicap of playing three races, therefore they can play as well as you can, despite playing three races to your one. This is true, but you haven't accounted for the fact that the random advantage is ALSO reflected in the MMR of your random opponent. You still have, on average, a 50% chance to beat them when all the advantages and disadvantages are tallied up. That said, while their advantages aren't imbalanced thanks to the way MMR works, they ARE annoying as hell. It's ruining Protoss for me. Even when the Zerg plays completely standard. I don't want to learn a gate-core-expand just for the occasional PvR(Z) games I face, but I think I will have to: 1-base all-ins are absolute ass in PvZ, and I can't FFE in PvR.
1 base 4 gate DTs will get you far into masters lol
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On December 27 2012 02:34 DKR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 02:06 DarkLordOlli wrote:On December 27 2012 01:51 DKR wrote:On December 27 2012 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:On December 27 2012 00:51 DKR wrote:On December 27 2012 00:46 DarkLordOlli wrote:On December 27 2012 00:42 DKR wrote:
I can definitely appreciate how playing vs Random isn't too P friendly but I suppose they could practice their all in's? I don't know but the variety provided by random players is definitely welcomed. What does PvR have to do with all ins? I was saying that the main worries seem to be from protoss players worried about being behind if they get a Zerg player. They could mitigate the worry of this by not attempting to play a macro game. Zerg gets a free hatch first, you can't punish that with a gate in the main. You can slightly pressure with zealot + stalker but the fastest attack you can do is a 4gate which zerg will be super ready for by the time it hits. There are plenty of directions you can go which have a similar 2 gas 1gate/core opening. You'll see which race you're playing before this point and can adjust dependent upon the race. Sure but all of them leave you behind vs a hatch first zerg. Personally I feel like they provide P with ample opportunity to punish that kind of greed, but I guess we'll agree to disagree.
Sorry to also disagree but he's right. He acknowledged you can pressure the Zerg that goes hatch first, but there is no way to 'punish' a hatch first with a gate first opener. And if the Zerg dots his I's you will be behind compared to a forge opener.
I still think gateway first is a fine way to play though, people just don't like playing more than one build
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When i face a random player, i usually scout when i hit 9 supply then do the ovie trick to determine his race. After determining his race i just do my usual build/ opener for each respective race 
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I don't like playing against random either. Proxy 2 gate and hope for the best. At least that ensures the awful vs random game will end quickly one way or the other.
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Since I hate doing FFEs, it actually turns out that 13 gate 17 core is the standard build I use in all three matchups, so the fact that they're random doesn't change anything for me.
In fact, I feel if the player is random and gets zerg then *they're* the one at the disadvantage since they really have no idea what to do against someone who gate expands. I can normally kill two or three overlords with only a single stalker.
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As a random my self I would like to have a option to have the game show my race by default, so I would not need to write my race every game.
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On December 27 2012 20:48 TSORG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 10:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 27 2012 09:10 TSORG wrote:there are no rdm pro players because no serious tournament should and would accept such an advantage at pro lvl. there is merit to the idea that playing requires more knowledge (not skill) of the game, having random is definitely an option that should be kept in the game. imo fairest solution is to make the race visible in the loading screen. that being said its prolly not a big problem at diamond/master lvl, but at the lower lvls it is imo, unit control and macro being so much worse playing random (cheeses) gives such a huge advantage. and i suppose it will give a big advantage at pro lvl, but im not an expert on that matter. i always ask if someone plays rdm and i consider it a bit bm if ppl dont say because imo rdm is there for your own excitement/improvement/etc and should not affect others. i did once have someone lie to me though, so you cant always trust them. someone already said it before, i just think well whatever, some people are just so sad for points they will lie about something so petty and go on. its not the worst thing in the world and for those who play rdm and tell their races, more respect to them. Every single pro tournament allows random. Such a baseless statement. If it was such an advantage, more people would clearly use it. To say its BM is utterly retarded. You going to cry if I don't tell you my position? Peoples dislike because they "can't get better and practice" is just fucking stupid. Then quit the damned individual game if your true motivation is solely practice. It'll be like two minutes tops wasted out of your time once every 50 games. Since its part of the game, why not take the time to practice vs Random, considering its in the game? Clearly you're not trying to become pro. Amazes me people pay $30-60 for a game and don't want to play all three races. The incessant whining is hilarious, people can bitch about such trivial things. where did i say anything about practice? blizzard takes pride in saying the game is fair and balanced on all difficulties/skill levels when it obviously isnt and rdm is part of that. you can say that it just means you are not good enough if you dont know how to play vs rdm but seriously what meaning has such a statement when you talk about b/s/g? and maybe even p and d.
How can you possibly argue that the issue is that a severe discrepancy exists at only the bottom levels of play? How is that any different than one race being piss easy over other races at the bottom level of play? Now all you're arguing is that if you really suck at the game or have absolutely no idea what is going on, that random can occasionally exacerbate the issue? Awful argument. Cannon rushing is strong in bronze too, let's remove it from the game. By your logic we should also remove random for the reason it is too weak at the top levels of play.
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On December 27 2012 11:25 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 09:25 Slithe wrote:On December 27 2012 09:10 TSORG wrote:there are no rdm pro players because no serious tournament should and would accept such an advantage at pro lvl. there is merit to the idea that playing requires more knowledge (not skill) of the game, having random is definitely an option that should be kept in the game. imo fairest solution is to make the race visible in the loading screen. that being said its prolly not a big problem at diamond/master lvl, but at the lower lvls it is imo, unit control and macro being so much worse playing random (cheeses) gives such a huge advantage. and i suppose it will give a big advantage at pro lvl, but im not an expert on that matter. i always ask if someone plays rdm and i consider it a bit bm if ppl dont say because imo rdm is there for your own excitement/improvement/etc and should not affect others. i did once have someone lie to me though, so you cant always trust them. someone already said it before, i just think well whatever, some people are just so sad for points they will lie about something so petty and go on. its not the worst thing in the world and for those who play rdm and tell their races, more respect to them. The reason why there are no pro players who play random is because it is too difficult to practice for three races at once. TLO tried it for a while, and gave up on it. It has nothing to do with tournaments disallowing random. you are actually wrong. Some tournaments allows to change race (not to play random, but to change race) between matches and TLO, at some tournament in 2012, played zvt and zvp but decided every time he faced a Z to play tvz. I think i'm not mistaken, it could be the other way around, but it means TLO thought his tvz was better than zvz. I guess it's still 3 match-up to practice but i guess practicing zvp, zvt and tvz instead of all 3 Z matchup should be harder. TLO still decided to play like this. But it could perhaps be argued that he's a little inconsistent with his decision regarding his career. Also, Nerchio was at first known to be ranked 1 europe as random player.
that was MorroW who did the TvZ, switch, not TLO.
No, he's not wrong, playing random is much more difficult than playing 1 race, and only gets worse as you get to higher levels.
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On December 28 2012 07:51 BreakfastBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 11:25 Natalya wrote:On December 27 2012 09:25 Slithe wrote:On December 27 2012 09:10 TSORG wrote:there are no rdm pro players because no serious tournament should and would accept such an advantage at pro lvl. there is merit to the idea that playing requires more knowledge (not skill) of the game, having random is definitely an option that should be kept in the game. imo fairest solution is to make the race visible in the loading screen. that being said its prolly not a big problem at diamond/master lvl, but at the lower lvls it is imo, unit control and macro being so much worse playing random (cheeses) gives such a huge advantage. and i suppose it will give a big advantage at pro lvl, but im not an expert on that matter. i always ask if someone plays rdm and i consider it a bit bm if ppl dont say because imo rdm is there for your own excitement/improvement/etc and should not affect others. i did once have someone lie to me though, so you cant always trust them. someone already said it before, i just think well whatever, some people are just so sad for points they will lie about something so petty and go on. its not the worst thing in the world and for those who play rdm and tell their races, more respect to them. The reason why there are no pro players who play random is because it is too difficult to practice for three races at once. TLO tried it for a while, and gave up on it. It has nothing to do with tournaments disallowing random. you are actually wrong. Some tournaments allows to change race (not to play random, but to change race) between matches and TLO, at some tournament in 2012, played zvt and zvp but decided every time he faced a Z to play tvz. I think i'm not mistaken, it could be the other way around, but it means TLO thought his tvz was better than zvz. I guess it's still 3 match-up to practice but i guess practicing zvp, zvt and tvz instead of all 3 Z matchup should be harder. TLO still decided to play like this. But it could perhaps be argued that he's a little inconsistent with his decision regarding his career. Also, Nerchio was at first known to be ranked 1 europe as random player. that was MorroW who did the TvZ, switch, not TLO. No, he's not wrong, playing random is much more difficult than playing 1 race, and only gets worse as you get to higher levels.
TLO did it too from what I'm aware...
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On December 28 2012 09:34 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 07:51 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On December 27 2012 11:25 Natalya wrote:On December 27 2012 09:25 Slithe wrote:On December 27 2012 09:10 TSORG wrote:there are no rdm pro players because no serious tournament should and would accept such an advantage at pro lvl. there is merit to the idea that playing requires more knowledge (not skill) of the game, having random is definitely an option that should be kept in the game. imo fairest solution is to make the race visible in the loading screen. that being said its prolly not a big problem at diamond/master lvl, but at the lower lvls it is imo, unit control and macro being so much worse playing random (cheeses) gives such a huge advantage. and i suppose it will give a big advantage at pro lvl, but im not an expert on that matter. i always ask if someone plays rdm and i consider it a bit bm if ppl dont say because imo rdm is there for your own excitement/improvement/etc and should not affect others. i did once have someone lie to me though, so you cant always trust them. someone already said it before, i just think well whatever, some people are just so sad for points they will lie about something so petty and go on. its not the worst thing in the world and for those who play rdm and tell their races, more respect to them. The reason why there are no pro players who play random is because it is too difficult to practice for three races at once. TLO tried it for a while, and gave up on it. It has nothing to do with tournaments disallowing random. you are actually wrong. Some tournaments allows to change race (not to play random, but to change race) between matches and TLO, at some tournament in 2012, played zvt and zvp but decided every time he faced a Z to play tvz. I think i'm not mistaken, it could be the other way around, but it means TLO thought his tvz was better than zvz. I guess it's still 3 match-up to practice but i guess practicing zvp, zvt and tvz instead of all 3 Z matchup should be harder. TLO still decided to play like this. But it could perhaps be argued that he's a little inconsistent with his decision regarding his career. Also, Nerchio was at first known to be ranked 1 europe as random player. that was MorroW who did the TvZ, switch, not TLO. No, he's not wrong, playing random is much more difficult than playing 1 race, and only gets worse as you get to higher levels. TLO did it too from what I'm aware...
FabledIntegral is correct in saying that they both did.
Playing Random is harder in some ways and easier in others. You have a better feel for races weaknesses but you lack a certain depth of understanding someone who's played a comparable amount of games would possess. Random should be considered a great component of this game.
With regards to how you react to it, it's just another challenge thrown your way; changing your opening once every ten games or so is not going to make you a worse player and is potentially only going to improve your play.
FireBrand's post was the best in this thread (or at least the parts which I have read).
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On December 28 2012 09:34 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 07:51 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On December 27 2012 11:25 Natalya wrote:On December 27 2012 09:25 Slithe wrote:On December 27 2012 09:10 TSORG wrote:there are no rdm pro players because no serious tournament should and would accept such an advantage at pro lvl. there is merit to the idea that playing requires more knowledge (not skill) of the game, having random is definitely an option that should be kept in the game. imo fairest solution is to make the race visible in the loading screen. that being said its prolly not a big problem at diamond/master lvl, but at the lower lvls it is imo, unit control and macro being so much worse playing random (cheeses) gives such a huge advantage. and i suppose it will give a big advantage at pro lvl, but im not an expert on that matter. i always ask if someone plays rdm and i consider it a bit bm if ppl dont say because imo rdm is there for your own excitement/improvement/etc and should not affect others. i did once have someone lie to me though, so you cant always trust them. someone already said it before, i just think well whatever, some people are just so sad for points they will lie about something so petty and go on. its not the worst thing in the world and for those who play rdm and tell their races, more respect to them. The reason why there are no pro players who play random is because it is too difficult to practice for three races at once. TLO tried it for a while, and gave up on it. It has nothing to do with tournaments disallowing random. you are actually wrong. Some tournaments allows to change race (not to play random, but to change race) between matches and TLO, at some tournament in 2012, played zvt and zvp but decided every time he faced a Z to play tvz. I think i'm not mistaken, it could be the other way around, but it means TLO thought his tvz was better than zvz. I guess it's still 3 match-up to practice but i guess practicing zvp, zvt and tvz instead of all 3 Z matchup should be harder. TLO still decided to play like this. But it could perhaps be argued that he's a little inconsistent with his decision regarding his career. Also, Nerchio was at first known to be ranked 1 europe as random player. that was MorroW who did the TvZ, switch, not TLO. No, he's not wrong, playing random is much more difficult than playing 1 race, and only gets worse as you get to higher levels. TLO did it too from what I'm aware...
I know for sure that TLO did play random at first. I don't remember if he also did race-picking at some point, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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Not being able to play against random is not a fault with the race random but an inflexibility yourself. Learn to play gateway first, learn to be able to punish races that don't play the MU as you do. There's a certain fun in that. I think a lot of people play too carelessly on ladder against R. There's nothing wrong with the way R play the race. It's different. What's wrong with different? It tests your OWN understanding of the MU.
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I haven't had problems playing against random. Just open with a safe macro build, scout normally and play it out. Once you've seen what they are the game is back on even footing. Maybe they get an advantage from you opening extra safe, but just consider it an extra challenge.
Also, if you're playing PvR(Z) and do a gateway opener, try playing a stargate expand style. Back in the day MC ruled PvZ with his stargate style, and many zergs (myself included) have forgotten how to play against it.
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EPT
