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On December 28 2012 13:25 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 12:08 rd wrote:On December 27 2012 04:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
I either just 6 pool or quit vs random.
The reason is that by playing random they are really screwing up that game. I want to play a game where I am able to practice and play standard and by playing random we are basically playing a pointless game where I would have to stay incredibly defensive and wait for their all in. If they really did want to play all three races they would just switch between the three instead of using the advantage they have to cheese. Go find some practice partners then. If you're looking to practice against a huge spectrum of strategies thrown randomly at you from widely varying levels of skill, then ladder is pretty great -- otherwise, it has no obligation to conform to anyone's practice requirements. Why do you even care what their intention on the ladder is? They're playing ladder to compete for whatever reason and you're trying to rationalize it and put it into a perspective which marginalizes the player and puts your holier than thou ladder practice upon its golden pedestal. This has nothing to do with my intentions. I have many practice partners but I want to be able to play vs a wide variety of strategies. The problem is if they are random I cannot play normal and therefore it does not help me do anything because I will not play that way in a normal match. If randoms ACTUALLY wanted to learn how to play all three races like they say they do (most of them in this thread are probably lying) then they would just pick a different race every game so that the match they play will actually play out noramlly. If they are just playing to have fun and try out some cheeses then sure play random but otherwise there is no reason to.
I play randmo because its more fun not knowing which of the 9 matchups youre going to get. Its got nothing to do with trying out cheeses for most people
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On December 28 2012 14:19 Lobotomist wrote:
I haven't had problems playing against random. Just open with a safe macro build, scout normally and play it out. Once you've seen what they are the game is back on even footing. Maybe they get an advantage from you opening extra safe, but just consider it an extra challenge.
Also, if you're playing PvR(Z) and do a gateway opener, try playing a stargate expand style. Back in the day MC ruled PvZ with his stargate style, and many zergs (myself included) have forgotten how to play against it.
The problem with gateway openers in PvZ is that if the Zerg KNOWS that you are going to do one, they are very abusable. They work great in "normal" games because Zergs dont know if its going to be, lets say; FFE, Nexus first or Gateway opener. Of course they could do an early drone scout but that has gone out of style in the meta game after the OL speed buff.
When you play RvP and spawn Zerg, you know the options a P has are very limited, either 1 base all in, proxy gates, cannon rush or gateway expand. Something like a semi-fast pool with a fair amout of lings are pretty good against all of them. The reason you wouldn't want to do it is because you are behind vs a FFE or Nexus-Forge build. If the randomer in this case wants to take advantage of it then the game is basically over before it starts.
Just for the record, I dont have anything against randomers; when I'm not in the mood I just leave the game instantly. No problems.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Random would be a great choice to pick if the loading screen just showed the race the randomer gets.
Why have this hidden information?
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i like to cheese randoms, something crazy all in on a two player map, something more tricky on four player.
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The good thing I find about playing versus a Random race is that I know that the opener I attempt for general purpose is functional, that's the real bonus to it. I've joined in on many discussions with people about this and generally I see people saying "It's a crutch" for the players to use to throw the other players off. The way I see it, they're at just as much of a disadvantage as you are. They will not have standard openings considered before they load as two people who know each others race right off the start. It's a longer period before you know what to do yes, but a Jack of all trades masters none, so to speak. I know numerous random players, and I only actually know one good one. He's only good because of TONS of practice with all 3 races throughout brood war (for at least 7 years of that) along with Starcraft II since release. He's still got his best race, Protoss and Terran are played by memory of generic stuff. He gets in much rougher positions when he gets those two races, and his skill shows when he plays Zerg, at least last I saw him play that is.
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On December 28 2012 15:30 Emzeeshady wrote:
A great solution would be to have the race the random spawns as come up in the loading screen so I know for sure what race it is. A lot of randoms tell me their race but I can't trust them because like 25% lie about it...
i agree, playing v random isnt fun, and it doesnt actually make proper games. people who play random probably never get to play vs an FFE toss, if they ever have to play a race pick tourny and go zerg, they will have no idea how to play against toss. i dont think this game i suited for random
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my TvR strat is proxy 11 11 rax  60% of the time, it works every time
edit - actually on 2 player maps sometimes ill just scout at like 10 supply and its not too bad just a minor annoyance
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On December 28 2012 15:28 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 14:19 MateShade wrote:On December 28 2012 13:25 Emzeeshady wrote:On December 27 2012 12:08 rd wrote:On December 27 2012 04:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
I either just 6 pool or quit vs random.
The reason is that by playing random they are really screwing up that game. I want to play a game where I am able to practice and play standard and by playing random we are basically playing a pointless game where I would have to stay incredibly defensive and wait for their all in. If they really did want to play all three races they would just switch between the three instead of using the advantage they have to cheese. Go find some practice partners then. If you're looking to practice against a huge spectrum of strategies thrown randomly at you from widely varying levels of skill, then ladder is pretty great -- otherwise, it has no obligation to conform to anyone's practice requirements. Why do you even care what their intention on the ladder is? They're playing ladder to compete for whatever reason and you're trying to rationalize it and put it into a perspective which marginalizes the player and puts your holier than thou ladder practice upon its golden pedestal. This has nothing to do with my intentions. I have many practice partners but I want to be able to play vs a wide variety of strategies. The problem is if they are random I cannot play normal and therefore it does not help me do anything because I will not play that way in a normal match. If randoms ACTUALLY wanted to learn how to play all three races like they say they do (most of them in this thread are probably lying) then they would just pick a different race every game so that the match they play will actually play out noramlly. If they are just playing to have fun and try out some cheeses then sure play random but otherwise there is no reason to. I play randmo because its more fun not knowing which of the 9 matchups youre going to get. Its got nothing to do with trying out cheeses for most people pull stuff out of a hat? There are programs you can use to randomly select inputted options. Like seriously why would you spoil a game for another person to get a thrill over what race you pick in a video game?
For the record, Blizzard encourages random by having portraits... I'm sure many people would be satisfied rolling a dice on their desk otherwise.
I think the best solution is a "reveal race" option and hopefully, it comes soon because it's extremely frustrating that one can't play random on the ladder without getting cursed at every other game.
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If you're someone who isn't concerned about ladder points, but about improving your game; simply ask what race they are.
If they tell the truth, then chances are they are someone who doesn't want to abuse your lack of knowledge, and simply wants to just be solid with all three races.
If they lie, or refuse to tell; then chances are that they may try to cheese you--in my experience most of the time that they don't tell they will try to do a cheese. Those games might end up being wierd, but I personally find weird games fun; as they force a lot of improvisation. Or if you are like Emzeeshady and can't stand playing a non-standard game, then just leave and find another match. There are very few people who play random, so this small inconvienance , is just that, small.
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To me playing vs Random is a good excuse to practice cheese, I see it as a waste of time playing properly.
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On December 28 2012 15:24 SnePe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 14:19 Lobotomist wrote:
I haven't had problems playing against random. Just open with a safe macro build, scout normally and play it out. Once you've seen what they are the game is back on even footing. Maybe they get an advantage from you opening extra safe, but just consider it an extra challenge.
Also, if you're playing PvR(Z) and do a gateway opener, try playing a stargate expand style. Back in the day MC ruled PvZ with his stargate style, and many zergs (myself included) have forgotten how to play against it. The problem with gateway openers in PvZ is that if the Zerg KNOWS that you are going to do one, they are very abusable. They work great in "normal" games because Zergs dont know if its going to be, lets say; FFE, Nexus first or Gateway opener. Of course they could do an early drone scout but that has gone out of style in the meta game after the OL speed buff. When you play RvP and spawn Zerg, you know the options a P has are very limited, either 1 base all in, proxy gates, cannon rush or gateway expand. Something like a semi-fast pool with a fair amout of lings are pretty good against all of them. The reason you wouldn't want to do it is because you are behind vs a FFE or Nexus-Forge build. If the randomer in this case wants to take advantage of it then the game is basically over before it starts. Just for the record, I dont have anything against randomers; when I'm not in the mood I just leave the game instantly. No problems. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Random would be a great choice to pick if the loading screen just showed the race the randomer gets. Why have this hidden information?
I agree with you on a lot of the points about random, here. However, a gateway opener is only abusable if you don't know what you're doing. Even against gas/pool, you should be able to 13 gate-->scout, learn the speed timing, and then wall off your natural before the rush.
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Just ask the random player what race he got and most will tell you. Then play normal from 10 seconds on. If you happen to FFE agains a liar, well, this is gonna happen mostly once in 200 games so you don't need to sweat about it.
Random players, including me, play because random because we like all the races and don't wanna either waste on any (and not experience it since we bought a full game) or get tired/bored of playing only one. It has NOTHING to do with having some sort of ridiculous advantage - at least past diamond it doesn't. So don't treat us like some kind of StarCraft criminals.
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every single random i play doesn't tell me their race, if i ask them, all-ins me, and im in diamond. i don't care if people like the randomness of the race they play but, at least tell me(the non random player) in the loading screen what race they are. its the best of both worlds.
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That's sad I suppose. I started playing random in beta and haven't stopped since. I always told my race from the beginning (You don't even have to ask me for the race - i tell it after i split my workers) and I know at least 2 randoms that do as well.
I can image most of you have terrible experience with random players, but don't get too judgy - after all we aren't a single overmind but different individuals. And some of us wants to play a straight up game as well... (not that it would hurt you much if you try to defend a cheese once in 50 games or so anyway..)
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So many random haters 
I play random and most of the time I tell my opponent my race, just because I don´t want to hear any random complains after I won ><
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I don't know why every P seems to think you still have to gateway expand vs R.
I put my cannon behind my minerals (in range of at least 1 geyser) like you are expecting Z no matter what, and then 9 scout. When you get to your opponent's base and find they are T, you're totally fine. When you get there and they are P, you throw down a 13 or 14 gate and play safe. In the case of the 14, it's less likely to be 2gated anyway since it's obviously a 4 player map since you didn't find them at 13. If you get there and they are Z, you try to Nexus First until you see the pool. If you do see it, you put down your forge and second pylon. EZ.
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The problem with that PartinG style pylon placement is that an 11 pool speedling opening can delay the expo a lot.
Here's a better question: which all-ins are best for using against the hated random opponents? I prefer 2 proxy gates, but I guess cannon rushing is viable too.
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On December 28 2012 15:28 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 14:19 MateShade wrote:On December 28 2012 13:25 Emzeeshady wrote:On December 27 2012 12:08 rd wrote:On December 27 2012 04:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
I either just 6 pool or quit vs random.
The reason is that by playing random they are really screwing up that game. I want to play a game where I am able to practice and play standard and by playing random we are basically playing a pointless game where I would have to stay incredibly defensive and wait for their all in. If they really did want to play all three races they would just switch between the three instead of using the advantage they have to cheese. Go find some practice partners then. If you're looking to practice against a huge spectrum of strategies thrown randomly at you from widely varying levels of skill, then ladder is pretty great -- otherwise, it has no obligation to conform to anyone's practice requirements. Why do you even care what their intention on the ladder is? They're playing ladder to compete for whatever reason and you're trying to rationalize it and put it into a perspective which marginalizes the player and puts your holier than thou ladder practice upon its golden pedestal. This has nothing to do with my intentions. I have many practice partners but I want to be able to play vs a wide variety of strategies. The problem is if they are random I cannot play normal and therefore it does not help me do anything because I will not play that way in a normal match. If randoms ACTUALLY wanted to learn how to play all three races like they say they do (most of them in this thread are probably lying) then they would just pick a different race every game so that the match they play will actually play out noramlly. If they are just playing to have fun and try out some cheeses then sure play random but otherwise there is no reason to. I play randmo because its more fun not knowing which of the 9 matchups youre going to get. Its got nothing to do with trying out cheeses for most people pull stuff out of a hat? There are programs you can use to randomly select inputted options. Like seriously why would you spoil a game for another person to get a thrill over what race you pick in a video game?
This is a hilarious attitude lol
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i always take random opponents as a challenge to practice good micro. worker micro against a 6pool while buying time for your own units is good practice. getting out a 9/10 scout should give you some idea of whether you are getting into a standard game or not before it becomes a build order loss. it's not easy, but it'll help you improve. so what if you lose? if you get better at defending such cheese, you'll win more later. and then you can pat yourself on the back and move on.
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EPT
